Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Soju.]

2 minutes ago, zehne said:

Okay then, how about this one:

1) I like the NEW SoTD because I don't have to re-summon all my shadows every-time i cast it.

2) I like how I can hold onto the shadows I summon by healing them back up to full

3) I like being able to re-position the shadows now because I can move and teleport them

4)I like the new SoTD for reasons 1-3 and that the cast time for 1-3 are greatly reduced.

This topic isn't about what you like about it, it's about  why it is more of a nerf than a buff.

You like having 7 shadows with constant babysitting your minions that are supposed to be doing some work? Good for you.

You like having to do a whole recast animation all over again and lose the entire cost of energy again for that one shadow and healing the shadows that are dying so fast every 20 seconds? Good for you.

However, Nekros never deserved a nerf to his 4th (or 3rd to some people).

 

Quote

Your whole premise for 'revert changes' is that you preferred the smallest factor of the ability that was nerfed, as opposed to all the great benefits it now has?!?

Smallest factor? You mean one of the core ability of Nekros and his ultimate is one of the smallest factor? What great benefits are there? The removal of duration in exchange for an even shorter duration? The reduced Shadows that means an overall reduced support ability and sustainability for Nekros? Yeah I'm sorry I'd rather have back just the 'benefits' he had before, thank you.

[Gurpgork]

22 minutes ago, zehne said:

Your whole premise for 'revert changes' is that you preferred the smallest factor of the ability that was nerfed, as opposed to all the great benefits it now has?!?

• Congratulations, my mind is blown

If something's bad, the solution isn't to make it worse. If I have a bed with a broken frame, I don't try to make it a better bed by jumping on it. 

Why nerf the damage output of an ability that already has lackluster damage output? In what possible universe is that justified? 

[RealPandemonium]

11 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

If something's bad, the solution isn't to make it worse. If I have a bed with a broken frame, I don't try to make it a better bed by jumping on it. 

Why nerf the damage output of an ability that already has lackluster damage output? In what possible universe is that justified? 

Yeah, it's unnerving to me that people don't even care that the damage output was gutted.  This was the opportunity for the damage to be buffed, but they nerfed it spectacularly instead.

[zehne]

3 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

If something's bad, the solution isn't to make it worse. If I have a bed with a broken frame, I don't try to make it a better bed by jumping on it. 

Why nerf the damage output of an ability that already has lackluster damage output? In what possible universe is that justified? 

So if I took the Synoid Simulor Compared to the Simulor:

• Faster Projectile Speed; Further effective range.
• Higher initial stack damage (175.0 vs. 170.0).
• Lower maximum stack damage (225.0 vs. 230.0).
• Larger explosion radius.
• Lower vortex threshold (4 merges vs. 5 merges).
• Faster reload speed (2.0s vs. 3.0s).
• Faster fire rate (2.67/sec vs. 2.0/sec).
• Larger magazine size (15 rounds vs. 10 rounds).
• Additional polarity.
• Innate Entropy.

And then said that the Synoid Simulor is crap because it has 'Lower Maximum Stack Damage' compared to the Simulor.  Would I be wrong?  I'm pretty sure that the above statement is correct, but if you asked most anyone about it they would rightly tell me that the other factors greatly outweigh the one thing I presented.

The new SoTD has many more great factors to it than downsides.  Rather than Join the others in presenting ideas for feedback on SoTD the OP stated that he wished for a complete revert of the ability to the way it was before.  There are many threads that speak to 'fixing' SoTD, this one doesn't want it fixed, it wants it reverted.  Clearly indicated by the thread title and OP.

Considering titles and posts are editable I'm inclined to believe that the OP still stands and it's not a buff that is wished for, rather a complete roll-back.  I however don't want a roll-back, if there are issues with the ability I'd like to see it improved.  But the fact remains that I rather like what the devs did to improve the ability and I do not wish to see that wasted.

[Hiiamwilliam]

Alright, second post here:

Shadows of the Dead: 

• What if health decay decreased if shadows were within an active Desecrate's range? Around 10% less decay [ less health per decay];
• Power strength could affect decay speed. Example: base of +10% power strength = -3% decay speed [ 1% hp would take longer than 1 second to decay ];  
• Soul Punch could really remove unwanted shadows ( Napalms keep setting everyone on fire);
• Casting Terrify could add a % of shadows' health ( essentially a small healing). The added health would remain for the duration of the first Terrify and wouldn't be added again even if Terrify is recasted. It could also force shadows to move and engage;
• There could be a health% indicator somewhere near the shadows' name/ lvl. It's harder to know how well Corpus shadows are. Think of Anti MOA, that thing has natural gigantic shield, with shield buff I never know if I should heal or not;
• Following suggestions from my previous post remain: lower cost to heal / recast if there are living shadows, small buff to damage, 1 Eximus per cast if available. 

Desecrate:

• The main problem is energy consumption without Despoil. Like some people said, Despoil (+ Equilibrium) feels mandatory if I try to run a build for Desecrate and Sotd. I didn't try a build without that combo, but judging by how much energy I spent just to maintain shadows, I can conclude that I would quickly run out of energy. Someone said a good suggestion: Desecrate would lose energy only when the body drops loot. Or use way less energy in the desecration attempts. This wouldn't happen with Despoil. Energy related issues are result of using both Sotd and Desecrate at the same time, if one is made to use less energy, the other could have less tweaks.

[Gurpgork]

8 minutes ago, zehne said:

And then said that the Synoid Simulor is crap because it has 'Lower Maximum Stack Damage' compared to the Simulor.  Would I be wrong?  I'm pretty sure that the above statement is correct, but if you asked most anyone about it they would rightly tell me that the other factors greatly outweigh the one thing I presented.

The new SoTD has many more great factors to it than downsides.

This would be a decent argument, but there is a huge difference in scale. You see, the Synoid Simulor has exactly five fewer maximum stack damage than the regular Simulor, and a long list of benefits to compensate for that, most notably Entropy. Now you're comparing that to a situation where we lost 65% of our damage (20 -> 7 minions) and got a straight downgrade from duration. You're comparing a loss of five maximum stack damage to sixty five percent total damage. The Synoid Simulor lost essentially nothing, and it is a clear, indisputable upgrade. Shadows of the Dead lost most of its damage output in return for basic QoL that the ability should've had from day one. 

17 minutes ago, zehne said:

I however don't want a roll-back, if there are issues with the ability I'd like to see it improved. 

I don't want a roll-back, either. I want the Shadow count restored and the ability set back on duration, and for recasts to replenish duration. That would make this change to SotD a clear, indisputable upgrade, which is what the ability needed. 

[zehne]

3 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I don't want a roll-back, either.

Then why choose to 'contribute' to a thread that states 'revert changes' instead of:

NEKROS AND HIS HEALTH DECAY

OR

Necros Ability Reword

Wanting changes is different than wanting what it used to be.  I want some changes but I don't want the way it used to be.  So of course i'm going to go against this thread.

 

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, zehne said:

So if I took the Synoid Simulor Compared to the Simulor:

• Faster Projectile Speed; Further effective range.
• Higher initial stack damage (175.0 vs. 170.0).
• Lower maximum stack damage (225.0 vs. 230.0).
• Larger explosion radius.
• Lower vortex threshold (4 merges vs. 5 merges).
• Faster reload speed (2.0s vs. 3.0s).
• Faster fire rate (2.67/sec vs. 2.0/sec).
• Larger magazine size (15 rounds vs. 10 rounds).
• Additional polarity.
• Innate Entropy.

And then said that the Synoid Simulor is crap because it has 'Lower Maximum Stack Damage' compared to the Simulor.  Would I be wrong?  I'm pretty sure that the above statement is correct, but if you asked most anyone about it they would rightly tell me that the other factors greatly outweigh the one thing I presented.

Lol, that comparison would be accurate if you inverted the pros/cons.  The only thing good about the new SotD is that you can amass a gimmicky army like 7 Bursas, 7 Ancient Healers, 7 Battalysts, etc.  

[NinjaZeku]

4 hours ago, (XB1)x Deathcraft x said:

continuity

Duration has no effect on Desecrate, its cost is purely Efficiency-dependent.

And yeah, Despoil + Streamline works more than fine.

[Celas_]

14 hours ago, Hiiamwilliam said:

Desecrate:

• The main problem is energy consumption without Despoil. Like some people said, Despoil (+ Equilibrium) feels mandatory if I try to run a build for Desecrate and Sotd. I didn't try a build without that combo, but judging by how much energy I spent just to maintain shadows, I can conclude that I would quickly run out of energy. Someone said a good suggestion: Desecrate would lose energy only when the body drops loot. Or use way less energy in the desecration attempts. This wouldn't happen with Despoil. Energy related issues are result of using both Sotd and Desecrate at the same time, if one is made to use less energy, the other could have less tweaks.

My build:

Growing Power, Cunning Drift , Prime Continuity R9, Constitution, Transient Fortitude R9, Intensify, Fleeting Expertise R3, Streamline, Despoil, Shield of Shadows.

With Growing Power Buff 86% DMG Reduction. I dont have a big problem with Shadows of the Dead, my Problem is Desecrate because of the BIG NERF from 90% to 54% this is not fair and this is really bad. It should scale with Power Strength or have a Buff to 75% but 54% is just crap.

Edited August 29, 2016 by ObjectM

[Dragon-V0942]

On 8/28/2016 at 3:00 PM, Xiusa said:

Less shadows because they caused performance issues, so they made them stronger to compensate.

As I have mentioned on many posts, this issue still remains.  Proving that the reducing of numbers did not change a thing. So this makes the entire change both a complete nerf for a false reason.

 

On 8/28/2016 at 3:00 PM, Xiusa said:

I don't see any issue here since it's properly balanced. Constantly keeping your minions alive and in-check gives more of a necromancer vibe than just "bam here they are"

We didn't have to keep them alive in the original as they were meant to be disposable, not cared for like our companions.
The aim was to keep the body count up for the next wave, encouraging me to kill a group of enemies and then target some heavy enemies before my timer ran out.
Now...  Now it's just desecrate, only it costs more power and is less rewarding.

So I fail to see how this is balanced compared to the original.

Edited August 29, 2016 by MicSet

[Lyravain]

On 28/8/2016 at 7:49 AM, AlphaWolf003 said:

As the title said. Can we please, un-nerf Nekros, to pre-Nekros Prime update, pretty please?

Before Nekros Prime update, maxed strength gives Nekros as much as 15 Shadows (or more), now his cap is 7. That's not to mention that they are constantly losing health now, regeneration and renewing Shadows are nice, first I heard of this I was excited, but then now that I realized they are constantly losing health (watching one of my Shadow lost 1/3 its health after 1 hit by another Corrupted is painful), now the user has to actively regenerate their Shadows and renewing them, which means wasting more energy.

Now what the hell is this? I might be one of the minor here that loved his 4th (despite it could have desperately use a buff), now it's S#&$ and I have literally zero reason to play Nekros, you guys just literally made him 99% farm frame with that Desecrate buff and the nerf to his 4th. His 4th was extremely useful in using the Shadows as being bullet eaters for its master and his teammates and distract the enemies, it had some sort of crowd control and overall a good support ability for a supporter like Nekros, now it can't even do that effectively, they can't kill because their damage is literally so small comparing to the higher level enemies' health and they die so easily it's ridiculous.

This update is a blessing to those farmers and save them from spamming Desecrate, but such a curse to those who ACTUALLY plays Nekros. If prior to this you didn't use his 4th but only his 1st and 2nd and 3rd, good for you, but damn nobody asked for this nerf to his 4th, it wasn't even popular, I get asked "what build is that" every time I use his 4th and gets a mini-army, that's to show how unpopular that is. What the bloody hell?

 

 

I don't particularly dislike the current Nekros. The few times I've played him since the update, with minor tweaks to my older build (Primed Continuity for regular Continuity, as I love Terrify far too much to completely negate duration), I had a blast.

Sure, I dropped less overall loot, but I felt like I actually contributed to my team. Frequently refreshing my army of the dead to keep them at high enough level still left me more than enough time to pick targets of opportunity off with my guns -meaning I had the choice of which new badass minion I'd get. And, frankly, with 6-7 Bombards standing there and aim-botting the crap out of everything around me, I felt like a minor deity trolling my poor, poor enemies. Didn't even use Shield of Shadows -though I might.

The lack of having to spam Desecrate isn't a blessing to Desecrate-Nekros builds; it's a death sentence, as you no longer guarantee a drop. And frankly, I like his new 4th. I'm sick and tired of having to cycle through all the butchers  to get to the Heavy Gunners, or through Oxium Ospreys to get the Scrambus. This way, I keep my most dangerous minions out and only keep the badasses in reserve. Feelsgoodman.

[Guest]

On 8/28/2016 at 1:00 PM, Xiusa said:

Less shadows because they caused performance issues, so they made them stronger to compensate. I don't see any issue here since it's properly balanced. Constantly keeping your minions alive and in-check gives more of a necromancer vibe than just "bam here they are"

Expectations: Oh no! My minions are taking damage! Here here, I'll heal you guys up real quick.

Reality: Oh no! Why the heck are my minions decaying? You useless sacks of ****.

[LilLemay]

I may be the only one that feels this way.. but I think cutting off the shadow's health decay, and giving them the same passive that Nekros has himself would do quite a bit towards making them more viable

[(PSN)Lilg31]

A simple fix for desecrate would be to move that ability to his passive.

New desecrate should be an aura depending on the enemy desecrated. Life drain aura if a melee unit is desecrated, shield drain enemy if its a corpus (non-melee) unit and armor drain aura if it's a Grineer heavy unit. 

If desecrate is used/on while an aura is active and that enemy will not provide a new aura, then his passive activates. 

Something like that would be much better and put him much closer to being a true Necromancer. 

 

Then fix this health decay nonsense. 

Finally, soul punch lol.. The name kills me and its so useless. Most necros have a melee ability. That is what soul punch needs to be changed to. 

Using an enemy's soul Nekros turns it into a one time claw weapon slashing all enemies within range of the enemy he took the soul from. 

Should also have a progression. Using it the first time is 1 slash, second time he uses two souls and a double slash, third is four souls. Two cross slashes. 

If an enemy drops below a 5% health threshold, using soul punch(soul swipe -_-) should execute them and pull their soul to create a perma shadow. 

 

Anyway DE never listens to us so we can all dream I guess. Or create our own game lol. 

Edited August 29, 2016 by (PS4)Lilg31

[Zachatoo]

13 hours ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

In other words I am tired of people pointing at Desecrate as the solution. IT ISN'T!

It isn't THE solution, it just happens to be the best solution in my opinion. When an ability changes, you generally have to change your playstyle, your mod setup, or both. What I'm recommending changes your playstyle to partially revolve around Desecrate for survivability and energy regen. You're more than welcome to choose a different option, such as a Rage build with a health regen weapon or a tankier build with a syndicate weapon that gives energy. Don't get pissed off just because I'm trying to offer suggestions that are legitimate.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 hours ago, LilLemay said:

I may be the only one that feels this way.. but I think cutting off the shadow's health decay, and giving them the same passive that Nekros has himself would do quite a bit towards making them more viable

That's actually not a bad idea I think.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I completely support the idea that recasting SotD should have a reduced energy cost if there are shadows still active, and I would love to see that the cast animation be reduced even if there is still 1 shadow left on the field (as is the mechanic shows when you recast SotD with the max count of 7 the casting animation is reduced).

I'm ok with the Health Decay, to the point that "I'm tolerating it, yes dear, it's a terrible mechanic" like an old married couple tolerates each other, but it would be nice to see this get a look at.

2 hours ago, LilLemay said:

I may be the only one that feels this way.. but I think cutting off the shadow's health decay, and giving them the same passive that Nekros has himself would do quite a bit towards making them more viable

This is a pretty nifty idea too. It's not groundbreakingly op, enemy spawn and dps still overwhelms shadows, I'm ok wih this.

[Inarticulate]

The health decay is slower than my energy regeneration with Despoil and Equilibrium. I cast Shadows of the Dead (maxed Blind Rage with no positive efficiency mods) whenever I hit max energy so that I can keep picking up energy orbs (because Desecrate doesn't quite create enough health orbs to keep me topped off and I'm a lousy aim when there's that much going on on screen), and none of my shadows ever die unless I forget to recast Shadows when my energy tops back off.

My only wish is that Shadows of the Dead would display the health percentage of the shadow with the lowest health (above the number of shadows, perhaps) so I don't have to constantly check with my reticle when I'm unsure.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Inarticulate

[Soju.]

14 hours ago, zehne said:

So if I took the Synoid Simulor Compared to the Simulor:

• Faster Projectile Speed; Further effective range.
• Higher initial stack damage (175.0 vs. 170.0).
• Lower maximum stack damage (225.0 vs. 230.0).
• Larger explosion radius.
• Lower vortex threshold (4 merges vs. 5 merges).
• Faster reload speed (2.0s vs. 3.0s).
• Faster fire rate (2.67/sec vs. 2.0/sec).
• Larger magazine size (15 rounds vs. 10 rounds).
• Additional polarity.
• Innate Entropy.

And then said that the Synoid Simulor is crap because it has 'Lower Maximum Stack Damage' compared to the Simulor.  Would I be wrong?  I'm pretty sure that the above statement is correct, but if you asked most anyone about it they would rightly tell me that the other factors greatly outweigh the one thing I presented.

The new SoTD has many more great factors to it than downsides.  Rather than Join the others in presenting ideas for feedback on SoTD the OP stated that he wished for a complete revert of the ability to the way it was before.  There are many threads that speak to 'fixing' SoTD, this one doesn't want it fixed, it wants it reverted.  Clearly indicated by the thread title and OP.

Considering titles and posts are editable I'm inclined to believe that the OP still stands and it's not a buff that is wished for, rather a complete roll-back.  I however don't want a roll-back, if there are issues with the ability I'd like to see it improved.  But the fact remains that I rather like what the devs did to improve the ability and I do not wish to see that wasted.

Your comparision is invalid, because there is an obvious superiority between TWO VARIANTS, with the superior one being the one harder to get, and the players can choose whichever variant they want accordingly to their needs. If there's a second variant of Nekros that is the same as he was before Nekros Prime update, then I'll choose that one with no complaint, oh wait, there isn't, there is no choice to. So sorry that you wasted your time and gray matter put into that comparison. 

"There are many threads that speak to 'fixing' SoTD, this one doesn't want it fixed, it wants it reverted.  Clearly indicated by the thread title and OP"

My solution to "fixing" the current StoD: revert it THEN improves it upon that, not NERFing it. You seems to like to play words without actually knowing the word game.

There are ISSUES with this ability, because it's a complete nerf to it was before, so would you rather have a good piece of cake that you have always liked or a new one that is based on that piece you like but instead they added their own 'flavors' into it and now it tastes like S#&$. Would you still buy the new one or go back to eating the old one you always liked? And no, I want a buff, I wanted a buff BEFORE this nerf. And as indicated, my topic was started and edited on  Saturday at 10:50 PM , the same day it was posted, just 1 minute after it was posted, there has not been an edit to it. In case you didn't see. And if I was giving up on my point, I wouldn't still be replying to this thread defending my point.

And you know what's funny? When 99 people out of 100 says it @(*()$ sucks, it probably does. Not in every cases, but in a lot of cases.

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[zehne]

13 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

And you know what's funny? When 99 people out of 100 says it @(*()$ sucks, it probably does. Not in every cases, but in a lot of cases.

And most people who are content with their jobs don't stand outside work with signs and demonstrations.  It's obvious that most people who go to the forums about a topic are the ones that are dis-satisfied. That's the way the world works.  Don't like something, yell kick and scream.  Like something? Quietly thank the person or do nothing at all.

EDIT:

Basically you're using bad science, the results are going to be biased.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by zehne

[Soju.]

28 minutes ago, zehne said:

And most people who are content with their jobs don't stand outside work with signs and demonstrations.  It's obvious that most people who go to the forums about a topic are the ones that are dis-satisfied. That's the way the world works.  Don't like something, yell kick and scream.  Like something? Quietly thank the person or do nothing at all.

EDIT:

Basically you're using bad science, the results are going to be biased.

 

 

 

... So, might I ask why are you here?

By your logic, I'd assume that all the people who gives feedbacks and criticize on the forum are the minor, and are wrongfully pissed at the game or just whining, since all the rest of the other players in Warframe are "content" with everything already. Warframe has over 26 millions registered players, so I guess all feedbacks on the forum here are just the minor, eh, since the number of feedbacks and posts we have in comparison with the number of the playerbase is so small, I guess you could say this is the perfect game? Again, of course, according to your logic. 

The way the world works doesn't revolve around your stupid ideals and rules and logic, just as it doesn't to me, or anybody else. When some people like something, they say it or shows that they like it, or do whatever the hell it is they want accordingly to their personalities, not everyone "quietly thanking" something or someone. It's a dynamic world, you are assuming billions of people just "quietly thank". Come back to me when you've lived and are as old as the Earth, THEN tell me how the world really works, when it finally ends, because the way I see it, "the way it works" changes every decades, or maybe even every day in even the smallest details.

 

Please enlighten me with your "good" science. Oh wait, you know what, don't, I'm not particularly interested in your ideals or logic, I am interested in the devs focusing on "fixing" this matter one way or another. Because I have seen so far 26 pages of more or less the same complaints I have on the main update log topic and it hasn't even been long since the tweak.

Edited August 29, 2016 by AlphaWolf003

[zehne]

15 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

 Because I have seen so far 26 pages of more or less the same complaints I have on the main update log topic and it hasn't even been long since the tweak.

And yet you're the one that is suggesting that DE burn the building down because you don't like the new decorative trim.  If you don't like the trim you don't burn the build down, you change the trim.

You want DE to revert changes, then buff SoTD.  So that you can have more shadows that don't have health decay.

Why not ask for more shadows that don't have health decay instead of obliterating the teleportation, healing, heavy unit prioritization  and partial re-summoning that was given to us?

Edited August 29, 2016 by zehne

[Soju.]

2 minutes ago, zehne said:

And yet you're the one that is suggesting that DE burn the building down because you don't like the new decorative trim.  If you don't like the trim you don't burn the build down, you change the trim.

You want DE to revert changes, then buff SoTD.  So that you can have more shadows that don't have health decay.

Why not ask for more shadows that don't have health decay instead of obliterating the teleportation, healing  and partial re-summoning that was given to us?

Only that this isn't simply a "trim". And I failed to see your reasoning on that last sentence. I'll happily accept any kind of buff I get.So I don't give a crap about revert then buff or fix it now then buff. And I don't want only the health decay removal, I want a complete revert of Nekros skill set that was changed, as you have already seen here I am not the only one unhappy with the changes, particularly to the 4th and 3rd. And as I even stated in my first post, I was excited for Shadows healing and renewing, but not with the cost of a massive nerf to pay for. 

 

I think you need to stop replying too fast but instead read more and get a complete understanding of what is happening here.

[(PSN)alpha_redlion]

Thx for the input everyone but i feel like u shouldn't have to use mods to fix a ability to me that takes away from your mod style.