How to Solve the Issues with Nullifiers, "Draco-style" Gameplay, and Overpowered Players Simultaneously

[ashrah]

u cant prevent someone if wish to do something.....and way devs try to implement stuff what dont have any sense will just make ppl anrgy and they will do what they wont to do anyway.....

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 minutes ago, ashrah said:

u cant prevent someone if wish to do something.....and way devs try to implement stuff what dont have any sense will just make ppl anrgy and they will do what they wont to do anyway.....

Well, this is not at all aimed at "preventing" anyone from doing anything... just encouraging them to do things differently. Unless you mean you can't prevent someone from just spamming ults, in which case you're dead wrong. All they have to do is limit power efficiency to a more reasonable degree and modify its acquisition to snuff out cheesing methods. 

Of course change makes people angry. No matter what the change is people will get angry. If it's a good change though, people won't stay angry. I'm suggesting something that should preserve the fast pace of Warframe, preserve the prevalence of powers and actually make them more relevant to gameplay and more satisfying to use because nullifiers won't need to be a 100% hard counter to our powers to slow us down. 

I firmly believe that instead of trying to stamp out Draco farms, the devs should be looking at why people Draco farm and changing the game so that they feel less compelled to do so. Make grinding gear more fun... and do that by making the game more engaging.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

All I'm saying is that in my experience, survival is not what I would call "passive" gameplay.

Ok. fine. But what about Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation, Interception?

These mission types actively promote passive gameplay and the funny thing is these are the most rewarding missions.

If DE wants to stop passive gameplay, they need to change the rewards for active missions like Exterminate, Sabotage, Rescue and Spy as well from Ammo Drums and Credits cache to 2 Rare mods and 60-80 Endo.

As simple as that.

DE can not complain when they promote passive gameplay by attaching most of the good rewards to non-endless static missions like Defense and Excavation.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, DEADSHOT456 said:

Ok. fine. But what about Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation, Interception?

These mission types actively promote passive gameplay and the funny thing is these are the most rewarding missions.

If DE wants to stop passive gameplay, they need to change the rewards for active missions like Exterminate, Sabotage, Rescue and Spy as well from Ammo Drums and Credits cache to 2 Rare mods and 60-80 Endo.

As simple as that.

DE can not complain when they promote passive gameplay by attaching most of the good rewards to non-endless static missions like Defense and Excavation.

And if you've read the rest of that conversation, you'll know that I agree that game modes need to be touched up. A lot of the most passive gameplay though, is not in search of rewards. It is in search of XP. They've partly addressed this with MR affecting base mod capacity at R0, but leveling guns up is still a drag if a) you don't like the weapon, or b) you've already leveled it several times. 

People get bored with grinding out leveling progress, which is a huge part of why they resort to Draco-style farming.

[MJ12]

The fundamental problem you almost but don't quite touch on is this:

• The game is currently such that with a good team composition, enemies will spend most of their time debuffed into uselessness.
• This is absolutely necessary because most Warframes are made of literal paper and can't survive hostile fire.

The direct damage powers aren't as problematic because they don't scale-the problem is that in high level content, unless you're using an Inaros, the question is:

Q: Is the enemy under multiple CC effects?

• If yes, shoot them until they die.
• If no, die.

As you can guess, this is not a sustainable model. The core issues that need to be fixed are:

1. CC needs to be significantly looked at and nerfed;

2. Warframes need to be made significantly more durable in high-level content to allow for enemies to actually threaten us without the binary of either 100% or dead.

Edited August 21, 2016 by MJ12

[SenorClipClop]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

"But I like being overpowered and murdering hordes of enemies with the press of a button!"

Okay, then stop expecting refined gameplay, don't complain when you're fed unimaginative and cheap enemies like Nullifiers, understand that good loot will always be scarce, and stop asking for challenge. Seriously. Stop talking about "challenge" if you aren't willing to sacrifice some of your power, and definitely stop talking about "fair" challenges if that's the case. You can't reasonably expect to be able to keep the entire map under constant, comprehensive lockdown and at the same time fight challenging enemies that do anything other than completely ignore your awesome powers.

Pretty bold to try and tackle all the hot-button topics if WF within one thread, but damn well said here! This is a huge issue with the player community and must be addressed, and OP has done so very well.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, MJ12 said:

*snip*

I don't disagree with that either, but this is less of an issue in non-endless content. Sure, Warframes like Ember definitely suffer a lot at Pluto level without support, but anybody with a decent healing effect available or higher-than-miniscule armor will do okay.

Changing enemy damage and whatnot is definitely something that needs to happen, but it's not so critical that it would prevent other changes from being put into effect.

I would also say that allowing us to move away from that binary of 100% locked down or dead depends on us not being able to lock things down. Warframe definitely didn't start out with this sort of damage relationship between players and NPCs.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Pretty bold to try and tackle all the hot-button topics if WF within one thread, but damn well said here! This is a huge issue with the player community and must be addressed, and OP has done so very well.

Thanks! I'm honestly just tired of that non-conversation. I like feeling powerful too, but it's possible to feel powerful without being overpowered. (It's actually more satisfying when that's the case.)

[DSpite]

What I don't understand about ability costs is this:

For example, Frost 1 ability is not "one-quarter" as powerful as his 4, yet costs 25 to the Ult 100 energy. Err, what?

Our small abilities should the equivalent of a secondary weapon in many cases, and should complement directly into our fights, and our ultimates should be "Death Blossom", something you really need to consider casting before doing so, and not "pick up energy orb, cast instantly".

People that think "but then we can't kill the hundreds of units attacking at once", well, the point is, we would not have the same enemy density or mechanics, they would be tailored for the fact that we can't spam Ults anymore, that's the point, and the Nullifiers would not even need to exist.
 

[MJ12]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

I don't disagree with that either, but this is less of an issue in non-endless content. Sure, Warframes like Ember definitely suffer a lot at Pluto level without support, but anybody with a decent healing effect available or higher-than-miniscule armor will do okay.

Changing enemy damage and whatnot is definitely something that needs to happen, but it's not so critical that it would prevent other changes from being put into effect.

I would also say that allowing us to move away from that binary of 100% locked down or dead depends on us not being able to lock things down. Warframe definitely didn't start out with this sort of damage relationship between players and NPCs.

Here's the thing though-these aren't isolated problems. The prevalence of CC is the bandage keeping the damage scaling system from eating us all for breakfast. The power-spam playstyle exists largely because with how power costs and efficiency work out there's very little room between "can basically never use powers" and "spam all your powers all day every day forever." Something like this needs a pretty significant rework.

And I don't think it's less of an issue that lethality is out of whack either-I think all of these play into each other. CC is too powerful, room-clearing is too cheap (and on the flipside a lot of other powers are too expensive), debuffs are incredibly crippling, weapon damage scaling is ridiculous, and to ensure the game has a modicum of challenge enemy damage and health are both way out of line.

[DEADSHOT456]

8 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

A lot of the most passive gameplay though, is not in search of rewards. It is in search of XP.

XP is a reward as well.

Believe it or not, but I  forma'ed my Vauban Prime only once because Draco is gone and I do not like Berehynia. I still need another Forma on it, but I do not want to level it up again.

If endless missions gave good amount of XP, most people would not run Draco-type games.

But can anyone successfully 4- Forma their gun by just playing Exterminate and Rescue and Sabotage?

I don't think so. I mean they can, but that would never be fun.

 

The main problem with Warframe is that every good reward is within the non-endless static missions. Be it mods, Endo or XP.

[--Q--uaint]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Transference

Transference is the energy signal that allows a Tenno to assume direct control over their Warframe. The stronger the signal, the better the link, and transference is a good measure of how much experience an operator has with their equipment.

o   As transference strength increases, affinity gain increases.

o   Stealth requires greater precision and awareness than normal combat, and as such transference will increase in strength as a Tenno succeeds in sneaking about. (Stealth Multiplier)

o   Focus abilities require a much higher level of synchronization between Tenno and Warframe in order to successfully manifest the operator’s powers. (Replacement for Convergence)

What, exactly, would the mechanics be here? How do you buff your transference strength outside of stealth? How do these things relate to Focus?

IMHO, you should just cut this part out or flesh it out a lot.

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Flux Energy

Flux energy is the abundant natural Void radiation that constantly seeps into our plane of existence. Its ubiquitous presence and inexhaustible supply make it ideal for fueling lesser powers and special abilities, but it is relatively difficult to harness and incapable of supplying enough power for things like ultimates.

o   Smaller energy pool, but it rapidly recharges (similar to stamina).

o   As flux energy recharges, portions of it are siphoned and distilled into saturated energy.

o   Completely depleting the flux energy pool will overload the Warframe’s Void transistors, causing them to overheat for a short duration and preventing regeneration.

o   Used to power some Warframe abilities, channeled melee attacks, and blocking.

This is pretty good. I think it would be a really good idea to give some examples of what abilities would be powered by Flux Energy.

Rather than basing saturated energy generation on regeneration, why not base it on effective use of powers? Hall of Mirrors should (IMO) be able to give similar gains to Fireball, Venom, Tesla, and Desiccate despite having extremely dissimilar mechanics.

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Saturated energy is the Void in its purest form. While as ubiquitous in the Void as flux energy is in our realm, it otherwise only manifests in or near Void fissures where the two planes overlap

Sounds like some serious shenanigans might go down in the Void...

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

nstead of flat-out negating all of our powers, Nullifiers could negate lesser powers like Fireball, and offer resistances to greater powers like World on Fire. (Perhaps they allow enemies to move in Bastille instead of wiping the whole thing out, etc.)

I do like the vibe of having something it's really worth pulling out "the big stick" on. However, World on Fire itself is a bit of an issue; it's not problematically powerful so much as it just does all the light lifting for the player without them having to do anything but feed it. WoF and other such abilities don't really fit nicely into your bifurcated system, I think.

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Lastly, the overpowered player should get enough of a nerf provided efficiency and cost are adjusted well. Spam-casting is still possible, but it's limited to abilities that won't clear the map instantly. Our map-clearing abilities are still ridiculously powerful, but they can't be cast constantly without incurring penalties that make them less overwhelming.

This could be relatively easily achieved with a simpler system, I think.

Remove entirely or nerf heavily the drop rate of energy orbs; they don't have any business being as common as they are, and they encourage Draco-style play by directly rewarding slaughter with the tools to do more slaughter.
Replacing them with health orbs would be quite helpful to new players, and swapping powers that currently make health orbs to generate energy would be... interesting.

Revert efficiency to the old system: 50% efficiency no longer means your powers cost half of what they used to, it means you can cast 50% more (ie. a ~33% reduction in cost).

Give energy regen scaled inversely with how much energy you already have. This would allow lots of power use while making the bigger-ticket items take a significant amount longer to prepare.

Obviously what I have here isn't perfect and doesn't cover all the bases, but it would give much of the benefits your system does without the extra complexity or fundamental changes.

[VCaptiion]

Tell me what did you see. Concept vs. Reality vs the meaning of "WARFRAME".

When you are facing tons of enemies abilities are your last resort.

Nullifiers takes away your last resort and forces you take risk of eating bullet with your face.

I sacrifice my time playing this game, forma-ing different gears and researching mods setup... and you tell me 2 out of 4 factions could make you completely useless with ease, or even tell me to shut up because of your selfish desired "challenge"?

Fanboys are so happy because their Tonkor can do more than abilities. "One click, BOOM. Bow and sniper users are noob."

DE dare NOT putting Nullifiers into these trailers after introduced because they even realize that's a anti-everything stupid design.

Edited August 21, 2016 by VCaptiion

[AperoBeltaTwo]

So, you don't like nullifiers that limit use of warframe abilities, so you suggest to limit use of warframe abilities without using nullifiers? Yay...

[Hopeisdead]

Well thought out post, but i disagree on a premise that there is a problem with players being too powerful. As for your solution for nullifies i dont see a reason why this should not be a case, while rest of the game-play stays as it is. 

Adding three different energy bars to time-out what you can do even more sounds even more clunkier than it is now. I like warframe for what it is atm and it is horde shooter. Sure they may decide to change it to a CD based turn-based strategy, but at that point i probably go play Panzer General or Master of Orion II. 

[Fuemego]

Why not just play other games that have what you're looking for?

[CY13ERPUNK]

+9999 OP

i literally cannot upvote this enough

[DiabolusUrsus]

25 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Here's the thing though-these aren't isolated problems. The prevalence of CC is the bandage keeping the damage scaling system from eating us all for breakfast. The power-spam playstyle exists largely because with how power costs and efficiency work out there's very little room between "can basically never use powers" and "spam all your powers all day every day forever." Something like this needs a pretty significant rework.

And I don't think it's less of an issue that lethality is out of whack either-I think all of these play into each other. CC is too powerful, room-clearing is too cheap (and on the flipside a lot of other powers are too expensive), debuffs are incredibly crippling, weapon damage scaling is ridiculous, and to ensure the game has a modicum of challenge enemy damage and health are both way out of line.

Again, I agree, but I think that at normal levels of gameplay without the ridiculous bonkers scaling the issue of survival comes more from a lack of a reliable ways to generate health without severely hampering the pace of gameplay. Health restores exist, but they're horribly cumbersome. Lifestrike exists but that's a single freakin' mod. Same with the Furis Syndicate thing. Trinity exists, but she's an entirely new can of worms. There are options, yes, but this mostly affects frames that don't have intrinsic healing options. 

Endless scaling is a different beast, and not one I'm looking to tackle here.

24 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

XP is a reward as well.

Believe it or not, but I  forma'ed my Vauban Prime only once because Draco is gone and I do not like Berehynia. I still need another Forma on it, but I do not want to level it up again.

If endless missions gave good amount of XP, most people would not run Draco-type games.

But can anyone successfully 4- Forma their gun by just playing Exterminate and Rescue and Sabotage?

I don't think so. I mean they can, but that would never be fun.

The main problem with Warframe is that every good reward is within the non-endless static missions. Be it mods, Endo or XP.

I can believe it, and I agree that modes need to be changed. I'm still more interested in fleshing out basic gameplay - not the rewards, the actual game that we should enjoy playing instead of slogging through to get rewards - into something where players are less reliant on waiting around and more reliant on things they can do to improve their own situations outside of simply swapping characters.

16 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

What, exactly, would the mechanics be here? How do you buff your transference strength outside of stealth? How do these things relate to Focus?

IMHO, you should just cut this part out or flesh it out a lot.

Transference is just XP gain rate. So getting a stealth mult boosts it. Triggering your Focus active ability triggers a temporary boost like Convergence already does, so that we don't need the randomly spawning arcade power-up. Stuff like that. I copy-pasted that from a thread I was writing that was going to be more comprehensive, so I'll just take that out. (Honestly forgot it was there.) 

22 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This is pretty good. I think it would be a really good idea to give some examples of what abilities would be powered by Flux Energy.

Rather than basing saturated energy generation on regeneration, why not base it on effective use of powers? Hall of Mirrors should (IMO) be able to give similar gains to Fireball, Venom, Tesla, and Desiccate despite having extremely dissimilar mechanics.

Sure, that's why it's generated by flux energy regenerating. So as long as something has comparable cost it will have comparable benefit. Hall of Mirrors might be a toggle, or it might even be a Saturated ability while Mirage plays around more with her 2 and 3 (and for the love of the game, fix her 2 into something more useful).

25 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Sounds like some serious shenanigans might go down in the Void...

Eh, it's a stab at explaining the whole "death orb boost energy on primes" thing.

26 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I do like the vibe of having something it's really worth pulling out "the big stick" on. However, World on Fire itself is a bit of an issue; it's not problematically powerful so much as it just does all the light lifting for the player without them having to do anything but feed it. WoF and other such abilities don't really fit nicely into your bifurcated system, I think.

I think that as an ultimate, it could stand to be both more powerful and more limited. Also, remember that ults could potentially be Flux abilities for the sake of flavor and variety. The general rule of thumb should be 1,2 utility, 3,4 variable power nukes... but it could be that Ember's "nuke" gets moved elsewhere in her kit. Perhaps give Fire Blast more of a reason to exist.

28 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

This could be relatively easily achieved with a simpler system, I think.

Remove entirely or nerf heavily the drop rate of energy orbs; they don't have any business being as common as they are, and they encourage Draco-style play by directly rewarding slaughter with the tools to do more slaughter.
Replacing them with health orbs would be quite helpful to new players, and swapping powers that currently make health orbs to generate energy would be... interesting.

Revert efficiency to the old system: 50% efficiency no longer means your powers cost half of what they used to, it means you can cast 50% more (ie. a ~33% reduction in cost).

Give energy regen scaled inversely with how much energy you already have. This would allow lots of power use while making the bigger-ticket items take a significant amount longer to prepare.

Obviously what I have here isn't perfect and doesn't cover all the bases, but it would give much of the benefits your system does without the extra complexity or fundamental changes.

I definitely agree that nerfing efficiency is a core change, but I'm really looking to create an active system where the player is expected to do things to generate their ability use... not a streamlined passive system where they wait to be fed. I forgot to mention that this system should completely remove Energy Orbs from the equation... I'll add that into the OP.

Remember also that these changes affect channeling (which is currently rendered irrelevant by the superiority of abilities outside of Lifestrike) and would bring back 100% damage reduction channeled blocking. Yay more survivability!

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Okay, then stop expecting refined gameplay, don't complain when you're fed unimaginative and cheap enemies like Nullifiers, understand that good loot will always be scarce, and stop asking for challenge. Seriously. Stop talking about "challenge" if you aren't willing to sacrifice some of your power, and definitely stop talking about "fair" challenges if that's the case. You can't reasonably expect to be able to keep the entire map under constant, comprehensive lockdown and at the same time fight challenging enemies that do anything other than completely ignore your awesome powers.

that pretty much wraps that up.
just like this explanation always does. you can have one or the other.

[DiabolusUrsus]

21 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

So, you don't like nullifiers that limit use of warframe abilities, so you suggest to limit use of warframe abilities without using nullifiers? Yay...

No. I am limiting the frequency of use of SOME abilities for the sake of balance, not shutting them down completely the way Nullies do. It is a clamp on player output rather than rendering an entire aspect of gameplay irrelevant.

17 minutes ago, Hopeisdead said:

Well thought out post, but i disagree on a premise that there is a problem with players being too powerful. As for your solution for nullifies i dont see a reason why this should not be a case, while rest of the game-play stays as it is. 

Adding three different energy bars to time-out what you can do even more sounds even more clunkier than it is now. I like warframe for what it is atm and it is horde shooter. Sure they may decide to change it to a CD based turn-based strategy, but at that point i probably go play Panzer General or Master of Orion II. 

Only two energy bars, only one of which you really need to manage any differently. It's just stamina applied to some abilities and melee channeling/blocking. This would not change the horde shooter nature of the game, and I think it would actually go a long way toward making it more stable.

Adding my change to nullifiers without making my changes to powers (or equivalent changes) may as well remove them from the game.

9 minutes ago, Fuemego said:

Why not just play other games that have what you're looking for?

Why try to shut down feedback on feedback forums? This is a place to talk about change, not resort to a "don't like it, don't play it" non-argument. Obviously I don't dislike the game. I just think it can improve, and would like to do what I can to help facilitate that. 

[DEADSHOT456]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I can believe it, and I agree that modes need to be changed. I'm still more interested in fleshing out basic gameplay - not the rewards, the actual game that we should enjoy playing instead of slogging through to get rewards - into something where players are less reliant on waiting around and more reliant on things they can do to improve their own situations outside of simply swapping characters.

I want the same. I really like playing Sabotage and finding caches, but the rewards are so miserable that I do not feel motivated to do those if I am farming something.

All I am trying to say is that DE should move at least half of the good rewards (including XP gain) from static game modes to dynamic game modes, that would solve half the Draco-style farm problem. Then, they can apply your suggestions as well.

 

Having said that, I would also like to point out that I disagree with your "Limit abilities" point. You see, the difference lies in how we perceive Warframe. I perceive Warframe to be all out madness with colorful abilities everywhere. I mean why should I not? Abilities are the things that separate Warframe from other normal TPS games, at least for me.

However, that does not mean I support fire and forget abilities like WoF, Maim, Bladestorm, etc. Yes, they need a change in mechanism.

I think the main problem with Warframe is how the game evolved yet, the abilities did not. Overtime, we got corrupted mods that can reduce energy consumption to 1/4th. However, the abilities  were not designed with this in mind. Almost all of Warframe ultimate abilities were designed as Fire-and-forget abilities with the only limit being the efficiency. With the introduction of mods like Fleeting Expertise, this limit removed. And that is where the problem started.

[ashrah]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Well, this is not at all aimed at "preventing" anyone from doing anything... just encouraging them to do things differently. Unless you mean you can't prevent someone from just spamming ults, in which case you're dead wrong. All they have to do is limit power efficiency to a more reasonable degree and modify its acquisition to snuff out cheesing methods. 

Of course change makes people angry. No matter what the change is people will get angry. If it's a good change though, people won't stay angry. I'm suggesting something that should preserve the fast pace of Warframe, preserve the prevalence of powers and actually make them more relevant to gameplay and more satisfying to use because nullifiers won't need to be a 100% hard counter to our powers to slow us down. 

I firmly believe that instead of trying to stamp out Draco farms, the devs should be looking at why people Draco farm and changing the game so that they feel less compelled to do so. Make grinding gear more fun... and do that by making the game more engaging.

warframe is farming simulator anyway...ppl will alwayes find wayes how to cheese anything....game is to have fun.......look at borderlands 2 u have casual play and u have op lvls where u are very strong but enemy is strong to u have all tools to find wayes how to cheese...

[--Q--uaint]

28 minutes ago, VCaptiion said:

When you are facing tons of enemies abilities are your last resort.

I don't quite agree with this assessment, but I agree with the sentiment of following the level/kind of usage in the trailers is desirable.

29 minutes ago, VCaptiion said:

DE dare NOT putting Nullifiers into these trailers after they were introduced because themselves even realize that's a stupid design.

I dunno. I think they might be able to do it, but they certainly couldn't reasonably include them in the numbers they usually show up in.

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So as long as something has comparable cost it will have comparable benefit.

What I was playing at is the fact that abilities have vastly varying costs and durations, even among the lower echelons of powers. Also of interest is that some powers can be refreshed and some can't be.

Going back to Mirage, we have 3 useful abilities which could all be quite reasonably based in Saturated energy. It seems as though at least one of them should use Flux instead, but here we run into problems. HoM isn't recastable, which means Fireball wins on energy generation by a mile. Eclipse IS recastable and costs 75, which makes it very superior to Fireball. Prism has a very long cast animation and a drain, which make it have more interesting problems.

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

explaining the whole "death orb boost energy on primes" thing

Easy. Orokin harnessed Void energy, and Primes have authorization to drain their batteries dry.

14 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think that as an ultimate, it could stand to be both more powerful and more limited.

I certainly agree.

14 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Also, remember that ults could potentially be Flux abilities for the sake of flavor and variety.

Note that I said

45 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

WoF and other such abilities don't really fit nicely into your bifurcated system, I think.

The emphasis is, unsurprisingly, mine. Erm. Why is quoting yourself even a thing?

Anyways, I think WoF is too strong to be Flux while simultaneously too weak to be Saturated. I suppose you could make the initial activation Saturated, with it locking down your Flux regen while active, but that just makes things even more complicated than before...

19 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm really looking to create an active system where the player is expected to do things to generate their ability use... not a streamlined passive system where they wait to be fed.

Why not just grant energy directly for doing parkour, then? Or even shooting? Having two different "kinds" of abilities, some of which "pay" you to use them, seems a little weird.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

I want the same. I really like playing Sabotage and finding caches, but the rewards are so miserable that I do not feel motivated to do those if I am farming something.

All I am trying to say is that DE should move at least half of the good rewards (including XP gain) from static game modes to dynamic game modes, that would solve half the Draco-style farm problem. Then, they can apply your suggestions as well.

 

Having said that, I would also like to point out that I disagree with your "Limit abilities" point. You see, the difference lies in how we perceive Warframe. I perceive Warframe to be all out madness with colorful abilities everywhere. I mean why should I not? Abilities are the things that separate Warframe from other normal TPS games, at least for me.

However, that does not mean I support fire and forget abilities like WoF, Maim, Bladestorm, etc. Yes, they need a change in mechanism.

I think the main problem with Warframe is how the game evolved yet, the abilities did not. Overtime, we got corrupted mods that can reduce energy consumption to 1/4th. However, the abilities  were not designed with this in mind. Almost all of Warframe ultimate abilities were designed as Fire-and-forget abilities with the only limit being the efficiency. With the introduction of mods like Fleeting Expertise, this limit removed. And that is where the problem started.

That's fine. They can throw out changes in any order they want.

Okay... let's get into a little more detail concerning what I mean by "limit" abilities. I don't want ults to be so severely limited that they are only cast once or twice in a mission. I also don't think that the "abilities flying everywhere" chaos should change either. I agree that abilities are what set Warframe apart (discounting its art style...), though I feel the "co-op" bit of it is more of a black sheep than people realize among shooter games. Especially F2P ones.

Abilities, even ultimates, should feel fluid to use and easy to access.

However... there needs to be a modicum of sanity. You shouldn't be able to pop off your ult several times in quick succession, nor should you forgo using basic abilities because greater abilities are more important.

The problem definitely started with Corrupted mods, but we can't continue to have power spam without limiting the actual strength of our powers... which is why I'm proposing a hybrid system where some powers can be spammed and some can't... while those that can't are even more powerful than they are now. Thus we preserve the unique Warframe feel, and even help players feel more like legendary forces to be reckoned with instead of having their strongest spells bounce off of certain enemies because the game shouldn't just play itself.

[DEADSHOT456]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's fine. They can throw out changes in any order they want.

Okay... let's get into a little more detail concerning what I mean by "limit" abilities. I don't want ults to be so severely limited that they are only cast once or twice in a mission. I also don't think that the "abilities flying everywhere" chaos should change either. I agree that abilities are what set Warframe apart (discounting its art style...), though I feel the "co-op" bit of it is more of a black sheep than people realize among shooter games. Especially F2P ones.

Abilities, even ultimates, should feel fluid to use and easy to access.

However... there needs to be a modicum of sanity. You shouldn't be able to pop off your ult several times in quick succession, nor should you forgo using basic abilities because greater abilities are more important.

The problem definitely started with Corrupted mods, but we can't continue to have power spam without limiting the actual strength of our powers... which is why I'm proposing a hybrid system where some powers can be spammed and some can't... while those that can't are even more powerful than they are now. Thus we preserve the unique Warframe feel, and even help players feel more like legendary forces to be reckoned with instead of having their strongest spells bounce off of certain enemies because the game shouldn't just play itself.

Ah, I see. That seems like a nice idea.