The ZEPHYR Re-work

[ObviousLee]

Hi there folks, OLee up in da hizzie to talk to you today about my favored frame, Zephyr. She's getting a rework soon, which is long overdue, however the majority of what i've seen from the community has been mild tweaks at best that somewhat center around her theme. Not saying they're bad by any sense of the word, just don't do her enough justice in my eyes.

Before i begin, lemme tell ya about my experience with good ol' birdframe.

I have 93 million affinity on her, and thats been stuck since my first forma, as i've not exceeded the affinity count on her yet, but suffice it to say i've over 100 million affinity on her. I mained her for just over two years, straight. I've taken her into every single game mode, against every single enemy, and I know what works, and doesn't work as well as the best methods to counter enemies regardless of the situation. I. Know. Zephyr.

Here are some examples of her secret goodies.

1: tailwinds distance and altitude can be manually adjusted with slides/dragon kicks. performing this action whilst on the ground(slide) will increase her tailwind height by a margin of roughly 25%(huge, right?) as well as distance traveled in horizontal flight.

2: you can manually air break out of tailwind at any time, by tapping your sprint key once during the flight.

3: modded properly, her sprint speed becomes the highest in the game, when working in tandem with jet stream.

 

Some of you might be aware of these facts, as i periodically share them in region channel whenever someone inquires, as i'm always willing to teach and help. Now then, as i've explained my experience with her, onto the overhaul.

 

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect, causing movement speed reduction, aim reduction, and stagger affects every 2.5 seconds within the area, while slightly buffing ally movement and melee speed by 10%-15%. This will be affected by range, and duration mods. What this ability does is give solidified cc against enemies that not only zephyr, but her teammates can effectively utilize in combat. This will be spherical similar to mag's bullet attractor

 

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back. These air bombs will levitate about 3-4 feet off the ground, and have a trigger/det range of 3 meters.

Edit: The air mines will, like inaros' scarab armor, need to be charged up to avoid spam. max count is definitely up for debate, I'm thinking a cap of 6-9, specifically in groups of 3.

Third Ability. Ascension (Toggle) - Zephyr cloaks herself in channeled air and is able to take flight. The air roils over her flight surfaces that cover her body, generating lift. The lift(flight) will not engage any sort of hover mode. She's a fighter jet, not a helicopter. A new icon will be present during ascension, which will indicate how much thrust one is generating. Less thrust=less lift=descending. W will increase her thrust, S will decrease it, allowing for manual control to avoid issues regarding her mobility and flight in tight confined spaces. If her thrust falls too short, she engages into freefall, tying into her already amazing passive. Flight mode directional control will be dictated by mouse direction orientation, meaning you aim this way, she flies that way. Turning the camera around for a 180 degree look behind me moment will initiate her turning to fly in that direction but also reduce thrust to allow for tighter turns. Affected by speed mods and efficiency mods. space bar will give her an afterburn thrust, with increased energy drain. max flight speed is equal to max sprint speed. Zephyr will still be able to make full use of her equipped weapons while in Ascension. The bullet deflection will be lessened, but still present within this ability as it's a mixture of turbulance, tailwind, and divebomb.

Edit: when ascension is activated initially, it will act precisely as turbulence does right now, including its current effectiveness. Performing a bullet jump during ascensions active effect will initiate the actual flight, as opposed to pressing 3 initiating the flight itself. This gives people an option to maintain current playstyles focused around jetstream or long duration turbulence play as well as offering an option between those who wish to maintain current use, as well as those of us who wish to take to the skies.

Collision on hard surface or enemy hitbox will trigger the divebomb attack animation, regardless of direction of travel, thus keeping the affectiveness of the tailwind/divebomb combo everyone is seeking in other reworks.

Edit: Divebomb damage would be scaled off of speed, numbers to be determined by DE or someone who could math out the mechanics.

Clarification: there will be 4 "throttle" selections. 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% Casting ascension rockets you in the direction of your camera is facing, and tapping W will increase your thrust, thus increasing your flight speed. Rapid high degree turns, like180%, will automatically drop you to below 25% thrust, thus cancelling Ascension and engages freefall for a small window, then re-engages to the 25% mark, allowing for rapid turning and effective dogfighting maneuvers.

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle): Zephyr casts a single tornado that will have massive draw range to suck in enemies. Zephyr and friends will then be able to fiire at said tornado for up to a maximum of 5 shots per team member, which adds 10% of their weapons damage output to the tornado capping out at a maximum of 50% total weapon damage output from the weapon that fired the shot, giving the tornado CC, better control in regards to enemy seeking and drawing in, as well as an added bonus of actual damage output that the entire team can participate on. This will be affected by strength mods, range mods, and efficiency mods. 

Edit: Alternative numbers, total damage from 5 shots per weapon per team member divided by half, then divided again by total number of enemies caught within tornado.

Bear in mind, this is effectively 50% of the total weapon damage output for the entire team, meaning that if 4 vaykor heks are pumping out 40k dps each, thats 160k dps divided by half, then divided again by enemies caught in the tornado, giving variabe amounts of dps as DoT.

 

I've made some edits. Review them, and let us continue discussion.

Edited September 24, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Watermelon]

[RikerWatts]

The removal of her speed asset vexes me slightly, as you are the one who taught me the large benefit that Zephyr has, the ability to not be shot by hitscan or projectiles is a huge defensive bonus for Zephyr, while a lot of these seem to still fit the theme of her, I wonder if there is a possibility to have her aireal superiority emphasized, like making an ability have added effects against targets that fly or are in the air.

Just a thought, as no other frame bears the direct benefit to counter mine ospreys or toxic infested ospreys effectively, as they seem to ignore most forms of CC.


 

59 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone)

I really enjoy this thought, however I'd think the CC should probably also effect flying targets more, instead of just being a ground effect like Oberon's hallowed ground.since "floor of turbulent winds" is what is stated.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Second ability: Strafing Run

Sounds a lot like she's placing mines of sorts with radial trigger procs. It'd be interesting to see in practice.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Third Ability. Ascension

Is this relevant to Wukong's nimbus in any way? As for the speed of it, I believe her max flight speed should be 1.75X of her sprint speed after mods, as an ability that takes up that much would seem costly even with max efficiency.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom

Now this, this is a good buff to a sketchy ult. I like this one a lot, in addition, I think it should include it's own status chance and when teammates shoot at it, their weapon's elemental damage types should be factored in.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Lol wow, I never even knew you could check how much xp you have on a particular frame. Since I too have over 100 million affinity I'm qualified to debate this. Lol, just kidding.

Before anything I'd like to acknowledge that I don't agree with any of these proposed changes, except perhaps the 4th ability. This is not a rework. The entire kit of Zephyr was scratched in order to create this. 

I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect, causing movement speed reduction, aim reduction, and stagger affects every 2.5 seconds within the area, while slightly buffing ally movement and melee speed by 10%-15%. This will be affected by range, and duration mods. What this ability does is give solidified cc against enemies that not only zephyr, but her teammates can effectively utilize in combat. 

 

This is an interesting concept. I'd like to know more about this in regards to how its cast and its aerial attributes. Is it an AoE similar to Hollowed Ground? Does it cast around Zephyr or is it a line in front of her, ect.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back.

 

These resemble dropping mines I assume. Cool idea.

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Third Ability. Ascension (Channeled) 

This feels like a sly way to introduce exactly what you say it isn't. 

W to ascend and S to descend. If you're only offering controls for up and down the only way I can assume you would move forward is by a tilted ascension. This is the means to introduce helicopter like movements which is leading back to a Titania like model. This is indeed hovering unless I'm mistaken somewhere in your explanation. Sounds exactly like battlefield, controlling a helicopter.

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Channeled):

This is a fine idea, but personally not very creative in its design. It also relies on teammates to control its damage output. It is also limiting through its use of a single tornado in which its chase is randomized. I'm not certain which direction it will go but I just dont think you had enough time to expand on your idea so I look forward to seeing what you plan to do with it.

Also, is @RikerWatts like a secondary account or something? Also 2 post counts that lead back to reflecting on your own post, giving feedback in the exact same manner. C'mon man..

[ObviousLee]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Lol wow, I never even knew you could check how much xp you have on a particular frame. Since I too have over 100 million affinity I'm qualified to debate this. Lol, just kidding.

Before anything I'd like to acknowledge that I don't agree with any of these proposed changes, except perhaps the 4th ability. This is not a rework. The entire kit of Zephyr was scratched in order to create this. 

I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

 

This is an interesting concept. I'd like to know more about this in regards to how its cast and its aerial attributes. Is it an AoE similar to Hollowed Ground? Does it cast around Zephyr or is it a line in front of her, ect.

 

These resemble dropping mines I assume. Cool idea.

 

This feels like a sly way to introduce exactly what you say it isn't. 

W to ascend and S to descend. If you're only offering controls for up and down the only way I can assume you would move forward is by a tilted ascension. This is the means to introduce helicopter like movements which is leading back to a Titania like model. This is indeed hovering unless I'm mistaken somewhere in your explanation. Sounds exactly like battlefield, controlling a helicopter.

This is a fine idea, but personally not very creative in its design. It also relies on teammates to control its damage output. It is also limiting through its use of a single tornado in which its chase is randomized. I'm not certain which direction it will go but I just dont think you had enough time to expand on your idea so I look forward to seeing what you plan to do with it.

Also, is @RikerWatts like a secondary account or something? Also 2 post counts that lead back to reflecting on your own post, giving feedback in the exact same manner. C'mon man..

I'll make the necessary adjustments this evening when I'm off work, but I don't have any alt accounts. This is, and has been, the only one I've ever used here. Also to clarify, w and s are for thrust, not altitude adjustment. I'll elaborate tonight. 

[ObviousLee]

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Lol wow, I never even knew you could check how much xp you have on a particular frame. Since I too have over 100 million affinity I'm qualified to debate this. Lol, just kidding.

Before anything I'd like to acknowledge that I don't agree with any of these proposed changes, except perhaps the 4th ability. This is not a rework. The entire kit of Zephyr was scratched in order to create this. 

I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

 

This is an interesting concept. I'd like to know more about this in regards to how its cast and its aerial attributes. Is it an AoE similar to Hollowed Ground? Does it cast around Zephyr or is it a line in front of her, ect.

 

These resemble dropping mines I assume. Cool idea.

 

This feels like a sly way to introduce exactly what you say it isn't. 

W to ascend and S to descend. If you're only offering controls for up and down the only way I can assume you would move forward is by a tilted ascension. This is the means to introduce helicopter like movements which is leading back to a Titania like model. This is indeed hovering unless I'm mistaken somewhere in your explanation. Sounds exactly like battlefield, controlling a helicopter.

This is a fine idea, but personally not very creative in its design. It also relies on teammates to control its damage output. It is also limiting through its use of a single tornado in which its chase is randomized. I'm not certain which direction it will go but I just dont think you had enough time to expand on your idea so I look forward to seeing what you plan to do with it.

Also, is @RikerWatts like a secondary account or something? Also 2 post counts that lead back to reflecting on your own post, giving feedback in the exact same manner. C'mon man..

thread updated

[RikerWatts]

7 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Lol wow, I never even knew you could check how much xp you have on a particular frame. Since I too have over 100 million affinity I'm qualified to debate this. Lol, just kidding.

Before anything I'd like to acknowledge that I don't agree with any of these proposed changes, except perhaps the 4th ability. This is not a rework. The entire kit of Zephyr was scratched in order to create this. 

I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

 

This is an interesting concept. I'd like to know more about this in regards to how its cast and its aerial attributes. Is it an AoE similar to Hollowed Ground? Does it cast around Zephyr or is it a line in front of her, ect.

 

These resemble dropping mines I assume. Cool idea.

 

This feels like a sly way to introduce exactly what you say it isn't. 

W to ascend and S to descend. If you're only offering controls for up and down the only way I can assume you would move forward is by a tilted ascension. This is the means to introduce helicopter like movements which is leading back to a Titania like model. This is indeed hovering unless I'm mistaken somewhere in your explanation. Sounds exactly like battlefield, controlling a helicopter.

This is a fine idea, but personally not very creative in its design. It also relies on teammates to control its damage output. It is also limiting through its use of a single tornado in which its chase is randomized. I'm not certain which direction it will go but I just dont think you had enough time to expand on your idea so I look forward to seeing what you plan to do with it.

Also, is @RikerWatts like a secondary account or something? Also 2 post counts that lead back to reflecting on your own post, giving feedback in the exact same manner. C'mon man..

I'm only 80 days old and Lee asked to post my input on his thread. I'm new to the forums.

[FoxFX]

Usually when it comes to a Rework of a Warframe, I try to see it through what [DE] has done in the past when it came to changing around a Warframe. They have done it with Volt, Saryn, Excalibur, and many others. I'd like to think if they were to rework Zephyr, she would not be exempted from this. That being said, I think changing the function of Zephyr's current abilities is perhaps what we should focus as a rework for Zephyr.

 

I guess this will be my personal take:

 

TAIL WIND

• Changes into a toggle ability that allows Zephyr's Bullet Jump act like mini-Tail Winds
• Function of this ability is similar to Ivara's Artemis Bow where each action will cost a small amount of Energy to use
• Perhaps add in an effect of a Blast-knockdown when a Double Jump is performed

TORNADO

• Moved to 2nd ability for a more convenient effect that the player can control
• Casting the ability will allow Zephyr to fire a slow-moving Tornado in the direction Zephyr faces when casting the ability
• The Tornado grows as it travels collecting more enemies until it reaches its maximum size or when the player presses the button to stop the Tornado's movement
• The Augment Funnel Clouds will home in on enemies in the trade off of not being able to grow or pick up enemies
• Tornado maintains its ability to change the elemental damage type

TURBULENCE

• In all honestly, should remain as is

DIVEBOMB

• Moved to the 4th ability for a stronger effect
• Becomes an ability that can also be activated on the floor that shoots Zephyr straight up to the sky and crash down with  a powerful AOE Blast attack
• The farther Zephyr falls not only increases the damage but also the range of the attack
• Crashing down causes debris to shoot from the impact dealing additional damage to surrounding enemies. The farther you drop, the more debris spawn
• Casting Dive Bomb in mid-air will cost 1/2 the Energy

[ObviousLee]

4 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Usually when it comes to a Rework of a Warframe, I try to see it through what [DE] has done in the past when it came to changing around a Warframe. They have done it with Volt, Saryn, Excalibur, and many others. I'd like to think if they were to rework Zephyr, she would not be exempted from this. That being said, I think changing the function of Zephyr's current abilities is perhaps what we should focus as a rework for Zephyr.

 

I guess this will be my personal take:

 

TAIL WIND

• Changes into a toggle ability that allows Zephyr's Bullet Jump act like mini-Tail Winds
• Function of this ability is similar to Ivara's Artemis Bow where each action will cost a small amount of Energy to use
• Perhaps add in an effect of a Blast-knockdown when a Double Jump is performed

TORNADO

• Moved to 2nd ability for a more convenient effect that the player can control
• Casting the ability will allow Zephyr to fire a slow-moving Tornado in the direction Zephyr faces when casting the ability
• The Tornado grows as it travels collecting more enemies until it reaches its maximum size or when the player presses the button to stop the Tornado's movement
• The Augment Funnel Clouds will home in on enemies in the trade off of not being able to grow or pick up enemies
• Tornado maintains its ability to change the elemental damage type

TURBULENCE

• In all honestly, should remain as is

DIVEBOMB

• Moved to the 4th ability for a stronger effect
• Becomes an ability that can also be activated on the floor that shoots Zephyr straight up to the sky and crash down with  a powerful AOE Blast attack
• The farther Zephyr falls not only increases the damage but also the range of the attack
• Crashing down causes debris to shoot from the impact dealing additional damage to surrounding enemies. The farther you drop, the more debris spawn
• Casting Dive Bomb in mid-air will cost 1/2 the Energy

you realize that DE completely removed super jump, created an entirely new ultimate, and combined blind into combos during the ultimate, right? Excal is literal proof that DE is willing to completely overhaul a frame if it's kit is in a justifiable enough need of a rework due to being outdated, as zephyr's kit is entirely outdated.

[FoxFX]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

you realize that DE completely removed super jump, created an entirely new ultimate, and combined blind into combos during the ultimate, right? Excal is literal proof that DE is willing to completely overhaul a frame if it's kit is in a justifiable enough need of a rework due to being outdated, as zephyr's kit is entirely outdated.

What [DE] did in comparison to the old Excalibur was indeed removed Super Jump and added the vertical movement of it into Slash Dash, but we cannot deny that Excalibur before did have in essence Radial Blind, Slash Dash, and Radial Javelin. Abilities the current Excalibur still have today. We have seen evidence of this from other Warframe Reworks in the past where [DE] tries to keep to some degree the nature of the past Warframe's abilities and changed the function of it in their future changes.

 

The thing that worries me in your rework is that it does not share that same method [DE] has done for all the past Warframe reworks. To me, it feels like a completely different Warframe.

 

If there is a need for a Warframe Reworks, we cannot simply replace the entire kit. We need to think up a way to change the function of it to a degree where it does not change the current playstyle of Zephyr.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

What [DE] did in comparison to the old Excalibur was indeed removed Super Jump and added the vertical movement of it into Slash Dash, but we cannot deny that Excalibur before did have in essence Radial Blind, Slash Dash, and Radial Javelin. Abilities the current Excalibur still have today. We have seen evidence of this from other Warframe Reworks in the past where [DE] tries to keep to some degree the nature of the past Warframe's abilities and changed the function of it in their future changes.

 

The thing that worries me in your rework is that it does not share that same method [DE] has done for all the past Warframe reworks. To me, it feels like a completely different Warframe.

 

If there is a need for a Warframe Reworks, we cannot simply replace the entire kit. We need to think up a way to change the function of it to a degree where it does not change the current playstyle of Zephyr.

considering the amount of time i've played with her, and testing i've done with her, i can safely say that this rework would in no way change how she plays, except for giving players reasons to push other buttons than just 3. this gives a use to her entire kit, while merging in abilities that make logical sense. presently, and as it's been the case for a very long time, there has been little to almost no reason to utilize TW or DB, as a ground slam from your melee likely will do much, much more damage. TW is effectively replaced by a bullet jump, barring forward travel speed superiority with TW. so, merging TW, DB, and TL into a single ability, because physics and logic, makes more sense, allowing for the creation of two new abilities that further compliment her caster mobility theme.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

considering the amount of time i've played with her, and testing i've done with her, i can safely say that this rework would in no way change how she plays, except for giving players reasons to push other buttons than just 3. this gives a use to her entire kit, while merging in abilities that make logical sense. presently, and as it's been the case for a very long time, there has been little to almost no reason to utilize TW or DB, as a ground slam from your melee likely will do much, much more damage. TW is effectively replaced by a bullet jump, barring forward travel speed superiority with TW. so, merging TW, DB, and TL into a single ability, because physics and logic, makes more sense, allowing for the creation of two new abilities that further compliment her caster mobility theme.

 

In direct response to think I'm just going to quote @Thaylien because he's already covered this today, as I have in the past. Just opinions, mind you.

Quote

 

Yes, Tailwind needs to do more, not a lot more, but more. The first is to add CC, like you suggested, but rather than a 'draw' I've had a great response with the idea of a custom animation, so she can pass by enemies (instead of getting stuck on them in small corridors) and cause them to spin around several times, forcing a re-target, and with a low chance of proc'ing confusion. The second is the idea that you can hold the button to extend it (we argue about how much steering, if any, it should have, because I think we need only a little course-correction, Renova believes we would benefit from a full turning circle and vertical movement too) at the cost of energy to cross longer distances.

But Dive Bomb isn't obsolete yet, it's just under-powered. Think about it, the main complaints with the ability are this: It attempts damage and CC, but has low damage and the CC is poor and has poor range. In other words, if we buff the range, buff the damage and make the new range guarantee the CC effect (currently current enemy animations and 'weight' of the unit dictate whether we can knock them down or stagger them) by saying Zephyr's effect guarantees a knockdown on anything that isn't a boss, regardless of animation... we're starting to get a great ability. The base range could easily be doubled, and then the height scaling that applies to the damage could also affect the range, adding more the higher you went (capped at a set value so it doesn't get silly). Scale the damage off your melee mods for the damage buff (because people always say it's a big melee ground-slam, so let's make it a really, really big melee ground slam!) and you've got a very respectable ability. 

And wait, there's more! Why limit it to only a ground slam from the air? Why can we not use the same explosive power on the ground? She's an air casting frame, so let's add to it. As we have to gain height for the max-damage, max-range Bomb, how about the ability to tap/hold the button on ground to produce a cone of effect forwards that gets stronger, more range and more CC-functional the longer you hold the button? Tap to shoot a quick blast of air, like Sonic Boom, but a stagger effect and more damage, rather than Banshee's ragdoll and light damage (it can be better than Banshee's, since it's a 2, not a 1 cast), but hold to gather more force and blast a cone-of-effect wind out that ragdolls enemies in front of her for up to a capped range for the same damage as the Bomb can do. Why a charge? The same reason as why you have to gain height for the Bomb side, you have to spend time to get results, and it makes it a tactical choice; do you have height enough to do a radial slam effect? The get some height and do it. Do you have no height, and all the enemies are in front of you? Charge up and knock them all down before they can reach you. Of course, the drawback to this is that it's animation-based, so no firing while you're charging up and you're vulnerable to melee still, or even ranged if your Turbulence runs out.

And finally I have an entire discourse on Tornado. Jump over to the other thread, there's a full explanation there. The simple version is that you tie Tornado to a range, affected by mods, and the funnels patrol inside that range, any enemies that step inside the ability range are then immediately targeted by the funnels and captured faster, and more reliably, than they are right now. You can buff the entire ability by trading in that limit on how far it can travel. Every single problem you have with Tornado can be fixed mechanically if it's just confined within a fixed area, turning it into an ability that can deny areas of the map to enemies, providing hard CC as well as Tentacle Swarm and even compete with Vortex. Add in an active cancel to the ability, so you can cast it in a new location instead of waiting the whole duration, and you'll have a very strong CC area denial ability that allows Zephyr to effectively watch her own back while she's doing more important stuff.

Her kit has all the potential to be amazing, but DE didn't realise how limited they were making it when they made the stats.

 

 

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

 

In direct response to think I'm just going to quote @Thaylien because he's already covered this today, as I have in the past. Just opinions, mind you.

 

you understand that i've effectively covered pretty much every point in that post you just made by merging tailwind divebomb and turbulence together right? increased damage for divebomb? check. Allow for divebombs aoe to be used against other surfaces besides straight down at the ground? check. Tornado rework that uses team synergies? check.

Not being rude, just emphasizing the point.

[FoxFX]

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

considering the amount of time i've played with her, and testing i've done with her, i can safely say that this rework would in no way change how she plays, except for giving players reasons to push other buttons than just 3. this gives a use to her entire kit, while merging in abilities that make logical sense. presently, and as it's been the case for a very long time, there has been little to almost no reason to utilize TW or DB, as a ground slam from your melee likely will do much, much more damage. TW is effectively replaced by a bullet jump, barring forward travel speed superiority with TW. so, merging TW, DB, and TL into a single ability, because physics and logic, makes more sense, allowing for the creation of two new abilities that further compliment her caster mobility theme.

 

I can only ask that you might reflect on all of the changes done to the Warframes in the past. [DE]'s pattern in reworks rarely removes the abilities but rather expands on what they can do. If [DE] wanted to, they would rework Zephyr's Tail Wind and Divebomb's function into abilities that give an actual reason to use.

 

Also, it is not truly wise to apply logic into a game much less a game like Warframe where even fire appears in deep space.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, FoxFX said:

 

I can only ask that you might reflect on all of the changes done to the Warframes in the past. [DE]'s pattern in reworks rarely removes the abilities but rather expands on what they can do. If [DE] wanted to, they would rework Zephyr's Tail Wind and Divebomb's function into abilities that give an actual reason to use.

 

Also, it is not truly wise to apply logic into a game much less a game like Warframe where even fire appears in deep space.

you do realize that fire does happen in space if the object that's burning provides the oxygen for the fire. Also, rockets, vacuum, think about it mayne.

[whovianGamer]

Sounds like a fun re-work. (Possibly) Looking forward to seeing this implemented.

 

[AlphaPHENIX]

You know, I feel like I am the only pearson who is moustly fine with Zephyr's kit as it is.

12 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

I have 93 million affinity on her, and thats been stuck since my first forma, as i've not exceeded the affinity count on her yet, but suffice it to say i've over 100 million affinity on her. I mained her for just over two years, straight. I've taken her into every single game mode, against every single enemy, and I know what works, and doesn't work as well as the best methods to counter enemies regardless of the situation. I. Know. Zephyr.

Finally a true Zephyr player.

12 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect, causing movement speed reduction, aim reduction, and stagger affects every 2.5 seconds within the area, while slightly buffing ally movement and melee speed by 10%-15%. This will be affected by range, and duration mods. What this ability does is give solidified cc against enemies that not only zephyr, but her teammates can effectively utilize in combat. This will be spherical similar to mag's bullet attractor

Interesting on paper, but untill I see it in game no comment.

12 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back. These air bombs will levitate about 3-4 feet off the ground, and have a trigger/det range of 3 meters.

A bomber ability, good. I just hope it can be used while the next one is toggled on too.

12 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Third Ability. Ascension (Toggle) - Zephyr cloaks herself in channeled air and is able to take flight. The air roils over her flight surfaces that cover her body, generating lift. The lift(flight) will not engage any sort of hover mode. She's a fighter jet, not a helicopter. A new icon will be present during ascension, which will indicate how much thrust one is generating. Less thrust=less lift=descending. W will increase her thrust, S will decrease it, allowing for manual control to avoid issues regarding her mobility and flight in tight confined spaces. If her thrust falls too short, she engages into freefall, tying into her already amazing passive. Flight mode directional control will be dictated by mouse direction orientation, meaning you aim this way, she flies that way. Turning the camera around for a 180 degree look behind me moment will initiate her turning to fly in that direction but also reduce thrust to allow for tighter turns. Affected by speed mods and efficiency mods. space bar will give her an afterburn thrust, with increased energy drain. max flight speed is equal to max sprint speed. Zephyr will still be able to make full use of her equipped weapons while in Ascension. The bullet deflection will be lessened, but still present within this ability as it's a mixture of turbulance, tailwind, and divebomb.

So basically you are combining 3 of her current abilities into one, making it even harder to use her full mobilty in not very open spaces (and utterly getting rid of two of her augments)...Risky, but could be helpful for Parkour rooms (especially that one it the Derelict).

12 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle): Zephyr casts a single tornado that will have massive draw range to suck in enemies. Zephyr and friends will then be able to fiire at said tornado for up to a maximum of 5 shots per team member, which adds 10% of their weapons damage output to the tornado capping out at a maximum of 50% total weapon damage output from the weapon that fired the shot, giving the tornado CC, better control in regards to enemy seeking and drawing in, as well as an added bonus of actual damage output that the entire team can participate on. This will be affected by strength mods, range mods, and efficiency mods. 

I wana see the damage of this thing with 5 fully charged shots from an Opticor XD. But how will it work with the augment, 4 tornadoes of the size we currently have by deffault and with the same effect?

[ObviousLee]

5 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

You know, I feel like I am the only pearson who is moustly fine with Zephyr's kit as it is.

Finally a true Zephyr player.

Interesting on paper, but untill I see it in game no comment.

A bomber ability, good. I just hope it can be used while the next one is toggled on too.

So basically you are combining 3 of her current abilities into one, making it even harder to use her full mobilty in not very open spaces (and utterly getting rid of two of her augments)...Risky, but could be helpful for Parkour rooms (especially that one it the Derelict).

I wana see the damage of this thing with 5 fully charged shots from an Opticor XD. But how will it work with the augment, 4 tornadoes of the size we currently have by deffault and with the same effect?

in regards to the mobility, you're going to be able to manually control your flight speed with 25% thrust being reasonably fast but not so fast as to rebound all over the place or get stuck behind slow opening doors. The amount of speed you're using will be dictated by you the player, as opposed to being limited to speed output dictated by mods and you're stuck with it.

I'm ok with her kit as is as well, but in regards to the upcoming rework and what others are presenting, i simply wanted to formulate something that would accentuate her as theme as she should be that did her adequate justice. She's a fantastic frame, and although her kit is good as is, IF it has to be changed, it should be changed for the ultimate better as opposed to the mediocre better.

And as far as augments go, i'm presently working on them with my discord team to figure out what the best measures to take in regards to them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I have been summoned! Oh... right, let's take a look then.

Well... actually I'm disappointed. From everything I see you're basically trying to turn Zephyr into an aerial frame, when aerial based combat is actually less than a single percent of Warframe combat. Sure your abilities complete the ideals of a 'flying frame', but there's too much to not like, and too little consideration gone into them from gameplay and balance perspective.

Several points of your changes make the abilities either over-powered in their own right, or work out as nerfs to her existing casts and functionality.

Overall, the drive of your rework seems to be to turn Zephyr from a mobile run-and-gun frame with aerial superiority when she can get it, into a tactical bomber and overwhelmingly cheesy CC frame. She's not an attack frame, barring one ability, and I can never support cheese when I see it.

But, to be fair, let's look at the abilities.

19 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect

So we get an AoE. One that, by necessity, is limited by range of cast, and also by the rules of energy-to-effect, so it cannot be very powerful. The power is brought into question by it being a lesser version of Sound Quake, while giving enemy debuffs, while giving allied buffs, and also forcing Zephyr to be tied to the same tile to exploit its effects.

On the plus side, it's a fair CC and a modest debuff/buff effect, on the down side her quick, inexpensive movement ability that is (to almost every Zephyr player) her most functioning-as-designed cast currently is now gone. Okay, that's a trade that would make a lot of players immediately dismiss this rework, but we'll see how it goes.

As far as gameplay is concerned, it's a rather subtle first ability for many players and doesn't play into her fast mobile aspect at all, and from a game balance perspective might be better placed on 2.

19 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot.

A mine-layer. Not the worst ability I've seen suggested by people for a new 2, but not the best. Mostly because of how spammable it will be, and the loot drops. You would, effectively, be able to lock down an entire area worse than Nezha with his hamster-ball and hot-foot, because instead of just a fire proc, you'd be getting full ragdolls and knock downs for the duration. In order to stop that, there would have to be some serious limits put on it, mechanically, or a serious dial-back of how much effect they can actually do.

You'd basically see the same problem you currently have with Tornado; a cast that does very good CC, but has pretty much infinite range and enemy capture during that duration, and so has to be limited in how fast, far and how reliably it functions. Without stringent limits, an ability like the one you've described would just be too exploitable, especially to somebody using a crit-melee build, but to anybody else it would be pretty much cheese-casting.

19 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Third Ability. Ascension (Toggle) - Zephyr cloaks herself in channeled air and is able to take flight. The air roils over her flight surfaces that cover her body, generating lift.

To be fair, the flight mechanics are the best thought-out I've seen. But you've made two key mistakes; the first is a toggle on a frame that has a low energy pool, and the second is you've cut the effectiveness of Turbulence to do this (something that will get any rework of Zephyr actively disliked, considering how strong this ability is on a frame with Zephyr's mobility) while trying to include Dive Bomb's explosion on surfaces that enemies don't actually travel in.

So the issue here is that you're taking away functionality in order to try and preserve it. Even the most vociferous Flight advocates I've seen in my months of being here have not tried to mess with Turbulence and its effective means of dodging death. But the only reason you're doing this is because you want the (not one, not two, but) three new abilities. And the reward for the effort is... basically some CC, buff/debuff, an over-powered and cheesy mine-layer and a controllable tailwind?

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this ability at all. For one thing it doesn't address the problems that all flight modes have on Zephyr; what do you do when you're up there? If you're putting that much concentration into just flying, then you'll have very little time to use her only reliable source of damage (barring your new 2) which is her weapons, you're not giving her an option for melee combat, and you're not giving her much option for anything with damage fall off, bullet spread, travel time or fixed range (beams).

You're also forgetting that, of the things she does badly currently, you've fixed none with this. Dive Bomb will still be short range and limited knock-down, with the reduction in effectiveness to Turbulence you won't even be able to just stand on a defense point reliably, and the ability lacks anything in low-ceilings or confined corridors full of enemies.

19 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Fourth Ability - Maelstrom (Toggle): Zephyr casts a single tornado that will have massive draw range to suck in enemies.

And wow... this is over powered as all hell.

You have created a roaming Vortex with Magnetise damage absorb. An enemy seeking Vortex that can be powered up to deal insane amounts of damage on a CC ability.

Did you know that, out of all the abilities that deal damage to an enemy just by pressing the button and watching the animation (that's things like Crush, Avalanche, Radial Javelin, Miasma, Bladestorm, Fire Blast and so on) the three with the highest damage are Bladestorm, with a max-damage build dealing over 7k Finisher damage per attack and 14k in bleed damage per enemy, Tentacle Swarm with a max damage of about 6.5k Finisher damage, and Miasma with 5.5k of Elemental damage (that can be boosted with procs up to 16k Elemental damage)? Most abilities that only cost the energy and then the time it takes to cast them, do very low damage. This is an intentional balance choice by DE.

Zephyr's Tornado, if it were made able to reliably pick up and hold enemies, and deal damage over a fixed period of time, would equal those abilities right now with its current damage output.

If DE were suddenly to give Vauban's Vortex the ability to move around and seek out enemies, it would be considered over-powered. If Mag's Magnetise could jump from enemy to enemy and capture all the enemies nearby in sequence, it would be considered over-powered. This ability you've created is basically that and better.

And again, a toggle, on top of the other toggle, for even more drain on the frame's meager energy pool. But also meaning people could spam this ad-infinitum to do quick pick-up CC for a few seconds, and turn it off. Charge up the damage to kill a high-priority target, and then cancel it. Again, the option for cheese is almost higher than the base over-powered nature is already because of that.

Now, please don't get me wrong, you've been creative and thorough in your thoughts, I can appreciate both and the theme you've tried to create for Zephyr. However you've not thought these through in terms of gameplay and you're actively detrimenting some of her existing good abilities in favour of your new ones.

I really can't stress how over-powered two of these abilities are, and how under-whelming the flight function is considering the attempt to cram her old abilities into the same cast.

Thanks for the effort, but I can't see this idea working.

[WinteRcat1]

It seems to me that Zephyr is already really fun to play, and her extreme speed plus her passive are enough to get people to keep playing her. Plus her ability to deflect enemy fire is really cool, and can be used very effectively. I've used it to protect objectives in lieu of a Frost, while quickly jumping out to retrieve energy and help my team when needed. What she really needs to be viable is more reliable, consistent CC and way to harvest energy to sustain her 1 and 2.

My suggestion is to allow her 3 to chain in with the her 1 and 2 very fluidly, i.e. if she's launched herself forward with her 1 and uses her 3, she maintains her momentum and collides with the enemies in front of her while channeling it. Her 3 would stagger enemies that come into contact with it and have an energy drain. Besides that, the other obvious rework is to make her tornado be one big tornado unless you use the augment, which only she can change the element of, and which moves in a linear direction.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, WinteRcat1 said:

It seems to me that Zephyr is already really fun to play, and her extreme speed plus her passive are enough to get people to keep playing her. Plus her ability to deflect enemy fire is really cool, and can be used very effectively. I've used it to protect objectives in lieu of a Frost, while quickly jumping out to retrieve energy and help my team when needed. What she really needs to be viable is more reliable, consistent CC and way to harvest energy to sustain her 1 and 2.

My suggestion is to allow her 3 to chain in with the her 1 and 2 very fluidly, i.e. if she's launched herself forward with her 1 and uses her 3, she maintains her momentum and collides with the enemies in front of her while channeling it. Her 3 would stagger enemies that come into contact with it and have an energy drain. Besides that, the other obvious rework is to make her tornado be one big tornado unless you use the augment, which only she can change the element of, and which moves in a linear direction.

you do realize that what you're suggesting, is exactly what ascension does, right?

[ObviousLee]

On 9/23/2016 at 7:03 AM, Thaylien said:

*snip*

i've updated the OP. feel free to glance over the changes I've put into it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

i've updated the OP. feel free to glance over the changes I've put into it.

Hmm... you've tried, I'll give you that. But man... this, and the replies you've made to the others... it actually just depresses me a little. I wanted to see if you'd come around with some actual considered thoughts on the proposed ideas, but for the most part you just haven't.

I've given the changes some thought, but I still think you're missing the theme and direction that Zephyr was created for, and you're still arguing for something that's entirely not needed for this frame. Here we go:

ROZ is unchanged, so all my thoughts stand on that.

I think you've managed to successfully adapt Strafing Run. A charge up is a decent limit on the ability, it would balance out the possibility for spam. Let's have a rundown of this new one:

Charge up air power and then cast to release a burst of air mines, up to X mines depending on rank of ability. Mines settle at a height above the ground and have a 3m trigger radius. Mines force ragdoll on enemies and drops loot(?). Damage, range of burst and range of explosions are all affected by mods.

So, not spammable anymore, and not a bad 'new 2' ability. Better. If this had been suggested in a regular rework thread where the other abilities were the same, but Tailwind and Dive Bomb were combined onto her 1 cast, this would make the list.

Ascension... I feel you've tried to band-aid this, and vastly underestimated the amount people use Bullet Jump. If you're anything like me, you just put a hotkey in and use it whenever, but people like bullet jumping, especially as Zephyr because of how floaty she is, and having any random bullet jump shift you into this flight mode would be very awkward.

Look, let's be honest with this, you're only including these abilities all in one cast to try and say you aren't changing how Zephyr plays, and to say you're adding to her, not taking away. But it's quite clear that you think Tailwind and Dive Bomb on their own aren't real abilities, so if you want to replace them so thoroughly just do it and we can argue over the results.

Likewise, if you're going to change Turbulence, change it and see what the ability is, if you're not, then don't change it. Trying to mash three whole abilities together into the same cast as situational/context based variants isn't going to work.

You've not addressed the idea of a toggle on a low-energy frame being a bad idea and you've still not given Zephyr anything to actually do while 'flying' apart from smash her head on the walls, which, I feel I need to point out, enemies don't walk on and the 'bomb's AOE as it stands isn't enough to warrant triggering on anything that's not the floor. If you're going to buff the Dive Bomb to make it applicable even on a wall, then why are you bundling it in with another ability, this would be a CC cast on its own, and a good one if it were that reliable. And even beyond this you're still talking about dogfighting style movement when actual aerial combat is non-existent in the game, you don't need to over-complicate an evasion ability like this.

So far you've come up with a decent 'flight' mechanic. But the problem is that you're basically flying to be flying. As I've said, with the lack of aerial combat, flying enemies above two or three meters, and quite a lot of low head-room tiles, you're trying to fill a niche that isn't there. Titania hovers around like a helicopter in a very tiny form, basically turning even a regular corridor into a high-ceiling tile, and suffers from being unable to bring her companion, pick up anything, use or level her regular weapons or even revive a team member. In the game as it stands, Zephyr literally has no functional reason to fly other than the consistent belief that it would be cool. It's a gimmick she doesn't need.

There isn't a purpose to it as you've described it either, you've incorporated Dive Bomb (and Turbulence) to give it some actual purpose, but the 'trigger anywhere' has been done and argued to death, and it would get very old very fast if everything you accidentally hit square on triggered an explosion, it would slow you down, drop you out of the flight mode and force you to start it all over again, likely placing you somewhere you didn't want to be (like in blast range of a heavy unit's knock down). Because you're trying to give her two new abilities as well as flight, you're forcing yourself to choose between flight and Turbulence, and in every case I and thousands of others would choose Turbulence.

As you've described it, regardless of the amount of control you want to give her for it, you would be better off just making an extendable Tailwind with a Dive Bomb function incorporated rather than trying to go to all this length to achieve what is basically going to be the same thing with more fiddly controls.

From a pure preference point of view I even disagree with the basic triggering the bomb on enemies, because you lose the potential to bypass grouped enemies in narrow corridors as other re-works would give her.

And you've still not addressed the ridiculously over-powered nature of Maelstrom. Damage numbers aren't the point, everything I said about it still stands. CC abilities only do marginal damage, Damage abilities only do marginal CC, and they certainly don't hybridise multiple ability ideas into a free-roaming, high range, damage absorbing, hard CC ability with infinite capacity until duration ends.

I want to like what you're doing, Lee, because you're a long term Zephyr player and want to see her be better. I just don't agree with the method of trying to change her so completely while arguing that you're preserving what she already does so it's okay, or the way that you're not seeing how pointless all this arguing about flying is.

Overall, I would consider either ROZ or the adapted Strafing Run as viable new abilities, if they were part of a rework where they were suggestions for a single new slot, I would even consider Ascension on its own (no Dive Bomb or Turbulence inclusion) as a suggestion for it too, but all three and a complete Tornado change too? Too much. You're not reworking Zephyr, you're creating a new frame with the same face.

If I were to be deliberately insulting (because this is an insult, which please, please, please, I'm only including as a mildly comdic reference to show you how far I think this has gone away from Zephyr, not because I'm actually insulting you) this is the Dragonball Evolution of Zephyr reworks. You've put Goku in high school, made him the unpopular dork who's in love with the popular girl, changed the Kame Hame Ha wave into Airbending, deleted Krillin entirely, made the Oozaru form into some generic minion of the dark lord, and given Piccolo yellow skin.

[CaptainBAMF]

Hello everyone. Im the one lovingly called captain by a few of the zeph chaps in here. I have 63% gamtime as zeph, my total ingame(non launcher time being 2022 hours)  My current mastery rank is 22

I currently rock 10 forma on my zeph, and my last counter stopped at 189,000,000 mill or so. I probably have over between 1-2 billion exp on my zeph total.

I love her movement, speed,  and specifically her lighter gravity and floatiness. It all lets me rock the nasty melee zeph i main.

 

Its time to get active on these discussion, as such my feedback will be based on personal experience and knowledge of the frame and playstyles i am aware of, while keeping an open mind to the ones i still may be unware of.

"First Ability: Roz(Restricted Operations Zone) Single cast  - Zephyr casts a floor of turbulent winds that affect all enemies within the area of effect, causing movement speed reduction, aim reduction, and stagger affects every 2.5 seconds within the area, while slightly buffing ally movement and melee speed by 10%-15%. This will be affected by range, and duration mods. What this ability does is give solidified cc against enemies that not only zephyr, but her teammates can effectively utilize in combat. This will be spherical similar to mag's bullet attractor "

" Second ability: Strafing Run  (Single cast)- Zephyr drops pockets of air in her wake, spread out like chaff, that upon enemies coming into range of trigger will explode, dealing moderate damage, and forced ragdoll cc, while simultaneously dropping loot. This will be affected by range and strength mods. The trigger range will be around 3 meters per air bomb that she's left behind her. This will allow her to have a nice amount of damage output, while still maintaining momentum in desired direction of travel, as well as making sure that enemies behind her aren't able to shoot her in the back. These air bombs will levitate about 3-4 feet off the ground, and have a trigger/det range of 3 meters. "

 

I honestly feel like you can combine these 2 into a single power, the ally movement speed wont really be neccesary as  that buff should be shifted to acension

Power 3 itself shoud still be turbulence, but with some positive additions. It should work in the air and ground, as well as in any flight mode zeph posses. It should innatly share the  speed for a normal  radius as it does now, but should give allies a longer timer and lasting buff when leaving.
 

power 1 should be your Acension, make it its own unique flight mode. 

Power 2: merge Roz and Strafing run. 

Power 3 Turbulence as it currently functions, or perhaps better ^_^

Power 4 I really dig your Maelstrom. Its pretty epic as written

Im sitting here reading all this input. ObviousLee id like to thank you for once again spurring the discussion of zephyr. <3 <3 <3

Your ideas are fantastic, now evovle them tenno, slap on some forma, and lets see what all this boils down too. (The total input, ideas, and creativity of the community may give her the best shot she has at a rework yet!!!

 

 

[DiosGX]

I'm kinda glad I waited to respond to this since I'm lazy and only need one initial post now. 

 

My concern is that her 4th is a superior Vortex that can deal dmg. While I don't want a dmg cap (Overload), they should START to be ejected after a certain amount of damage tics. But if they are still in the tornado's hitbox, they keep taking damage? Just a thought. 

 

Now since you're adding an energy drain to afterburning, my concern is players simply wouldn't use it at all. To be frank,  I probably wouldn't, unless there was a spore-lash syngergy of, say, crashing into enemies with an afterburner would regen a small amount of energy per enemy struck. It wont fully restore energy pools but it could help offset the afterburn cost a bit while incentivizing its use.

Edited September 25, 2016 by DiosGX
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