Do We NEED a Universal Vacuum?

[blackheartstar_pc]

5 hours ago, infamouscycle said:

there is no reason for Carrier Prime to be dying nearly as often as you claim it is.

I feel like this every time I see somebody talking about how frail Sentinels are.

[Silvus-Sol]

Options:

Gameplay:

Loot Vacuum [On] [Off]

 

There. Now everyone is happy. Those that want it, have it. Those that don't want it, can choose not to have it. Anyone can use any companion they wish.

It's so simple it's stupid.

[Guest]

I don't think anybody wants vacuum to be split into a bunch of garbage, we just want all companions to be able to use it so we don't have to waste time running around grabbing loot, trying to grab loot stuck behind a wall, trying to grab loot after a vortex has thrown it god knows where trying to grab loot before a scavenger drone eats it, trying to grab loot while playing a slow frame or nezha (seriously, try grabbing loot when you take 5hr to cross the room or have .00001 friction).

[Pitman]

Carrier makes 7% of all the companions. Changing it to all sentinels ups that to 50%. Who in the right mind would do this half baked garbage? You make 89% of the players upset and not even properly fix the problem. Nobody wins.

 

I actually thought about what a companion needs to be able to do to make me switch. I came to the conclusion that it needs to give me such a high affinity multiplier that it immediately maxes all my stuff. Then I would use it to level my equipment, but only for that. I would still use vacuum most of the time.

No damage increase would make me want to switch. You could give me rainbow crits and I would still use vacuum. Even if a companion would instantly win me the mission I would only use it for raids and sorties. For all other things I would still use vacuum.

 

If you think about it that way nerfing it makes sense. We talking about something that competes with just winning the game.

But make a sanitiy check. We're talking about picking up loot. Thats it. Loot. This isn't just winning the game or anything like that. It's about trivializing a part of the game that everyone hates. We're talking about a workaround to bugs related to pickups (like they falling through the floor).

 

Just make a sanity check every once in a while

Edited October 5, 2016 by PitmanE957
Spelling

[Dizzle22]

I hate to be "that guy" but DE is failing the community on this one. Which is sad, because this should have been an easy win for everyone. The overwhelming majority of players want Vaccum, and they don't want it nerfed or to have some horrible drawback. The forums spoke, and the numbers in game do not lie.

This could have been an easy way for DE to win back some goodwill from all the recent controversial changes and delays, but no, they had to listen to the vocal minority of contrarians on the forums (once again) and toss a nerf at Vacuum.

"I'm not mad... I'm disappointed"

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Last I heard they were giving Carrier an Ammo mutation effect for your Currently Equipped Weapon.

Which to me still makes him more useful than the rest of the Sentinels and since Kavats still don't have Vacuum; Nothing has changed.

The only actual result is Vacuum being nerfed.

 

Also, very much this. Carrier Prime will still be the most used sentinel, if not most used companion overall. I actually like Carrier, for reasons beyond vacuum, so this was never going to get me to change anything anyway. So now, vacuum sees its range halved in exchange for a free ammo mutation. 

The problem is, that how soon will we see that nerfed? Or Carrier Prime's survivability or something nerfed? I already saw a post suggesting nerfing his stats....

When we are discussing simple QoL items like this, the other sentinels need buffs, not for Carrier to be nerfed. But then again, I can't help but think that this is another way to try to drive people to the time and resource sink that is the dogs/cats. Shade's stealth was nerfed not long before they released the dog that gives stealth after all....

2 hours ago, Silvus-Sol said:

Options:

Gameplay:

Loot Vacuum [On] [Off]

 

There. Now everyone is happy. Those that want it, have it. Those that don't want it, can choose not to have it. Anyone can use any companion they wish.

It's so simple it's stupid.

This has also been suggested many times on the forums. And yes, this would have been the ideal outcome. That is, with keeping the current range of vacuum, of course. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Dizzle22

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Dizzle22 said:

Also, very much this. Carrier Prime will still be the most used sentinel, if not most used companion overall. I actually like Carrier, for reasons beyond vacuum, so this was never going to get me to change anything anyway. So now, vacuum sees its range halved in exchange for a free ammo mutation. 

The problem is, that how soon will we see that nerfed? Or Carrier Prime's survivability or something nerfed? I already saw a post suggesting nerfing his stats....

When we are discussing simple QoL items like this, the other sentinels need buffs, not for Carrier to be nerfed. But then again, I can't help but think that this is another way to try to drive people to the time and resource sink that is the dogs/cats. Shade's stealth was nerfed not long before they released the dog that gives stealth after all....

 

It's actually 18% of it's original area of effect when you consider that it's a sphere's radius. Even going across a two dimensional reach it's less than 1/4  the effective range.

12m up and down,12m horizontal opposed to 5m up and down 5m horizontal. A 7m nerf is a lot.

Even beyond the ammo mutation, he's a Sentinel which don't run head first into rockets and exponentially scale in surviveability due to using your active mitigation over garbage AI.

Companion damage is rather useless if you play at any significant level range so all they have going for them is Utility. The Crit Cat might be good except as mentioned they die in one hit and actually function as a debuff since you have to babysit them.

[KnightCole]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

That's where our play styles will argue this into the ground.

Where I like to play Kubrow damage is worthless and they get one shot.  Me dodging and actively avoiding damage makes Carrier survive much longer.

You obviously soak up too much AoE cuz that's the only thing that can kill Carrier.

 

10 hours ago, infamouscycle said:

This is just factually incorrect lol

Kubrow AI is garbage. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. They will prioritize fighting trivial enemies, get stuck on terrain, not use their precepts at good moments/use them when they don't matter, etc. Most of the time they act.... special.

Carrier Prime with all maxed defensive mods has 1280 health, 375 shield, and 315 armor. That's more than most Warframes. While yes, it's true that Kubrows can also get to very tanky levels when they do stuff like using Link Health with Inaros, there is no reason for Carrier Prime to be dying nearly as often as you claim it is.

Really lol?  Just how do you keep a Carrier alive then?  I parkour around like a kid on speed most the time, as for soaking AoE?  Yeah, Napalms, Bombards, since they zero in on me, its a lil' hard to avoid.  Toss in the fact that Corpus and Infested have nothing but AoE everything, bubbles, AoE death clouds, AoE stomps, AoE bursas, AoE tar.  Yeah, there is TONS of AoE mechanics in this game that can kill a carrier and do kill carriers.  Then S#&$, if thats not enough, the AI shooting me but missing hits my carrier.  Either way, my Carrier dies all the damn time....well, it seemed to be dead an awful lot.   I find it pretty damn hard to avoid all the many AoE sources in this game. 

Kubrow AI I wont argue needs some help.  I would love to be able to command it to use its abilities, command it to SIT, STAY, ATTACK!  Follow, defend and stuff like that, I like the Kubrow way more.  My Sahasa Kubrow linked to Rhino with lvl 6-7 link mods has like 2050 health and like 1600 shields or something crazy.  Damage is like 1700 I think, it pretty much rapes stuff.  While yeah, its targeting is slow, and random, it doesnt die and its a nice addition. 

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

 

Really lol?  Just how do you keep a Carrier alive then?  I parkour around like a kid on speed most the time, as for soaking AoE?  Yeah, Napalms, Bombards, since they zero in on me, its a lil' hard to avoid.  Toss in the fact that Corpus and Infested have nothing but AoE everything, bubbles, AoE death clouds, AoE stomps, AoE bursas, AoE tar.  Yeah, there is TONS of AoE mechanics in this game that can kill a carrier and do kill carriers.  Then S#&$, if thats not enough, the AI shooting me but missing hits my carrier.  Either way, my Carrier dies all the damn time....well, it seemed to be dead an awful lot.   I find it pretty damn hard to avoid all the many AoE sources in this game. 

Kubrow AI I wont argue needs some help.  I would love to be able to command it to use its abilities, command it to SIT, STAY, ATTACK!  Follow, defend and stuff like that, I like the Kubrow way more.  My Sahasa Kubrow linked to Rhino with lvl 6-7 link mods has like 2050 health and like 1600 shields or something crazy.  Damage is like 1700 I think, it pretty much rapes stuff.  While yeah, its targeting is slow, and random, it doesnt die and its a nice addition. 

 

The only time my Carrier dies is if I'm playing a frame like Nekros, Chroma or Valkyr where I either don't care if I get hit or actually want to get hit. Otherwise he never dies.

Bombard rockets can't hit you nor Napalms, if they hit you with even splash damage past lvl 100 they usually one shot most frames. Other crap like Corpus are dealt with by using AoE yourself. The new Telos Boltace is a good quick attack weapon for that kinda crap.

And ever time someone brings up Companion Damage Output I'm compelled to show them what my Naramon Banshee does.....

 

45 Million Sonar overlap Red Crit   2.7 - 5 million normal Sonar crits.

My Saryn does 400k a Swing, my Chroma does 800k a swing, I clocked Mesa's Peace Maker at 200-300k DPS, Valkyr does 3-4 Million finishers and Slides. 

..... Companion Damage is a joke.

[Chipputer]

I can't wait for the 5m to be plenty fine but people continue to whine because they actually have to walk around the corner instead of sucking up loot through a wall. Carrier has bred a group of players who pretend that looting is too difficult to do while playing the game and it makes me wonder how most of them ever multitask on anything.

Hey, if you can't multitask, that's fine, but shooting and looting is the same level of multitask as driving a car-- you only occasionally look down and you prioritize looking at the important bits.

[Xzorn]

33 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I can't wait for the 5m to be plenty fine but people continue to whine because they actually have to walk around the corner instead of sucking up loot through a wall. Carrier has bred a group of players who pretend that looting is too difficult to do while playing the game and it makes me wonder how most of them ever multitask on anything.

Hey, if you can't multitask, that's fine, but shooting and looting is the same level of multitask as driving a car-- you only occasionally look down and you prioritize looking at the important bits.

 

Every player tries to counter Vacuum with some excuse about skill or difficulty when it's completely unrelated.

I guess that's what happens when you make a game so ridiculously easy.

Like I said in a previous post. Not even a Robot can beat another Robot with Vacuum. Same goes for a Robot with 12m Vacuum Vs. a Robot with 5m Vacuum. No matter what the Robot with superior pickup with either get more kills or more loot. There's no other outcome.

Any game that has unlimited inventory needs a radial pick-up.  You only manually pick up loot when you have Inventory Management. That's just simple game design.

 

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Every player tries to counter Vacuum with some excuse about skill or difficulty when it's completely unrelated.

Nowhere did I mention skill or difficulty.

Quite the opposite, I mentioned the lack of skill or difficulty it took.

[Pitman]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Nowhere did I mention skill or difficulty.

Quite the opposite, I mentioned the lack of skill or difficulty it took.

"Carrier has bred a group of players who pretend that looting is too difficult to do while playing the game and it makes me wonder how most of them ever multitask on anything."

I found "difficult" in that sentence and Multitasking is a skill.

 

Edit: and Xzorn said that it has nothing to do with that.

Edited October 5, 2016 by PitmanE957

[Shockwave-]

16 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

The players asked for it, a majority of them. Now we've got it (just about).

Time to move on and deal with it.

Let's focus on making sure it works as well as possible.

I say this having had a lengthy debate against adding it (last year) that I cannot find since it's archived.

We didn't ask for this. We asked for 12m vacuum. That's what we asked for. We didnt' ask for a huge nerf to vaccuum. I'd rather the status quo with only carrier having 12m than everyone having 5m in heartbeat. This is game changing in away that will push me to not play. I don't want to miss things i killed badguys to get. In reality I shoudln't have to. who is searching through pockets on the battlefield? What dead feral Kubrow drops a bite mod (or any mod for that matter, perfectly in tact and lootable without taking time to salvage it.

 

The reality is that the loot system is insanely meta already - picking up dropped items mid combat that people just happened to have in their pockets (grineer on saturn of course have O cells in their pockets for no reason at all, but Grineer on Mars don't have ANY EVER because O cells aren't needed to run their gear, just grineer pocket lint).

 

Since the system of dropping things is just a meta version of loot gathering there is no reason to make it super inconvenient as well.

[Silvus-Sol]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Nowhere did I mention skill or difficulty.

Quite the opposite, I mentioned the lack of skill or difficulty it took.

It still isn't relevant. You, like DE, aren't understanding why Carrier/Vacuum is so popular. It has nothing to do with the words skill, lazy, easy, or difficult.

It has to do with the flow of the gameplay. Warframe is a fast paced, high mobility, action-centric shooter. It has a flow to it. Having to stop and direct your attention to the ground and loot gathering for more than a very short time period kills that flow. Having to stop for loot interrupts the gameplay and can interfere with the already tenuious co-op (the team usually doesn't stop for loot, so you either leave it or get left behind). That is the issue. So 89% of the playerbase avoids the problem (for the most part) by using Vacuum.

Warframes base loot system is... not the best. Vacuum is not like other mods and cannot be casually nerfed as such. Vacuum is a workaround, a band-aid, for the game's loot system. That is how DE needs to look at this when making their changes. Just because it is becoming universal doesn't necessarily mean it has to have a drawback. This is a quality of life pseudo-solution to a fundamentally flawed core element. If DE does this right it can mean they never actually have to fix that flawed core element, the band-aid will be enough.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Silvus-Sol

[KnightCole]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I can't wait for the 5m to be plenty fine but people continue to whine because they actually have to walk around the corner instead of sucking up loot through a wall. Carrier has bred a group of players who pretend that looting is too difficult to do while playing the game and it makes me wonder how most of them ever multitask on anything.

Hey, if you can't multitask, that's fine, but shooting and looting is the same level of multitask as driving a car-- you only occasionally look down and you prioritize looking at the important bits.

Yeah, well, judging by the people I see driving, id have to guess they cant drive either.  Red means pull out your Cell phone and start texting.  Green means put it away, and take a sip of coffee or Vodka, w/e they are drinking, then maybe go if they can manage to find the accelerator, and yellow means speed up! 

Cuz, yeah, like every time I ever see cars anymore, im like 1/4-1/2 mile down the road and the light is green, then as I approach the light, I STILL have to slow down cuz like 20-30 seconds later cars are STILL just campin' out at the street lights.  Tryin to get through some street lights, im 5 cars back and still end up having to wait for a 2nd rotation cuz the 4 cars ahead were up there jackin; off and not driving.  Light turns green they are steady just sittin' there...its like "OH! The light is...what color is it?  I didnt pay attention in kindergarten during color day" "Its green, I think that means go!"  "GO!?  Pedal on the right, right!?" "YES!" "Oh, well its red again".....

And I swear thats how people drive anymore...so, yeah, in a game, players would jsut as soon have the OPERATOR playing the game for them in some sort of Bot fashion, so they wouldnt even have to play......lazy, terrible gamers who if you ask them to do anything but sit in a doorway with unlimited ammo and shoot, it blows their mind.  warframe 2017: We want an autofire mod to, so when enemies walk in our LoF the gun just goes off.  Its probably why people hate the Mesa nerf....they couldnt just press 4 and shoot everything while they go refill their Vodka glass.

[Shockwave-]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I can't wait for the 5m to be plenty fine but people continue to whine because they actually have to walk around the corner instead of sucking up loot through a wall. Carrier has bred a group of players who pretend that looting is too difficult to do while playing the game and it makes me wonder how most of them ever multitask on anything.

Hey, if you can't multitask, that's fine, but shooting and looting is the same level of multitask as driving a car-- you only occasionally look down and you prioritize looking at the important bits.

It's not too difficult, it is just dumb. There is no reason we'd have to loot credits and mods from fallen badguys. Why would they have WF mods on them anyway? Why would they have credits we can loot without stooping down and looking in thier pockets? where does that Drakk carry that Bite mod that falls out of him perfectly intact for us to pick up off the ground... or do i want to know.

 

The "loot" system in WF is meta. It's not reality. This would never happen in reality. So there is no reason to MAKE players walk over everything. we could be awarded it all at the end. We could be paid tokens byt he Lotus for each mission based on kills that we use to BUY these mods from a mod vendor. That would make WAY more sense than walking over them in the middle of a 100-1 battle. So what's wrong with having vacuum for convenience?

[Xzorn]

So yea.

New Radius sucks bad.

Real bad.

[Rhekemi]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

We didn't ask for this. We asked for 12m vacuum. That's what we asked for. We didnt' ask for a huge nerf to vaccuum.

I know what you mean, but I trust you knew what I meant and are being pedantic.

To be clear, I didn't mean this is exactly what the community asked for and exactly what it got.

If I did, I wouldn't have said this:

17 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

Let's focus on making sure it works as well as possible.

And this:

17 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

I'm hoping that once it's released and we get our hands on it, test it out, and find it lacking, DE will listen to our feedback and adjust.

I know it's flawed, and yes, I do know it isn't what the community asked for. 

Furthermore, at one time, DE did seem to think mods was the answer. The community did not agree. They scrapped the idea.

As I said, hang onto your valid frustrations, ideas and suggestions for better implementation, and constructive feedback, and direct it at DE. 

EDIT: It's live? Will compare new mini-Carriers with Big Daddy Carrier/Prime soon.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Rhekemi

[polarity]

They said we'd be getting Universal Vacuum.  What they gave is is Universal Rank 0 Vacuum.

Talk about dishonesty through omission.

Edited October 5, 2016 by polarity

[Keltik0ne]

So, someone at de thinks that wasting time moving about to loot equates to skill ?

It's a quality of life nerf, nothing else.

[WjndWalk3r]

3 hours ago, polarity said:

They said we'd be getting Universal Vacuum.  What they gave is is Universal Rank 0 Vacuum.

Talk about dishonesty through omission.

lol "community" just ask for Universal Vacumm xD they forget to tell DE what rank it is xD Opps xD

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Silvus-Sol said:

It still isn't relevant. You, like DE, aren't understanding why Carrier/Vacuum is so popular. It has nothing to do with the words skill, lazy, easy, or difficult.

 

It's.....  Interesting.

Because DE has acknowledged the need for a universal Vacuum by adding it to all Sentinels and possibly other companions in the future but somewhere decided it was too good as a universal trait.....  Even though 89% of the player base was using it already and have been for 3 years now.

It's not like the number of players using Vacuum is going to change much either way.

I really don't understand the thought process behind reducing it's range.

If the radius was not good; it should have been addressed a long time ago.

[notlamprey]

8 hours ago, Silvus-Sol said:

It still isn't relevant. You, like DE, aren't understanding why Carrier/Vacuum is so popular. It has nothing to do with the words skill, lazy, easy, or difficult.

It has to do with the flow of the gameplay. Warframe is a fast paced, high mobility, action-centric shooter. It has a flow to it. Having to stop and direct your attention to the ground and loot gathering for more than a very short time period kills that flow. Having to stop for loot interrupts the gameplay and can interfere with the already tenuious co-op (the team usually doesn't stop for loot, so you either leave it or get left behind). That is the issue. So 89% of the playerbase avoids the problem (for the most part) by using Vacuum.

Warframes base loot system is... not the best. Vacuum is not like other mods and cannot be casually nerfed as such. Vacuum is a workaround, a band-aid, for the game's loot system. That is how DE needs to look at this when making their changes. Just because it is becoming universal doesn't necessarily mean it has to have a drawback. This is a quality of life pseudo-solution to a fundamentally flawed core element. If DE does this right it can mean they never actually have to fix that flawed core element, the band-aid will be enough.

Tragically out of daily reputation to give, but quoting for gratuitous truth.

Having to 'win' a loot roll in order to have anything drop in the first place is enough. We shouldn't also have to contend with bugs, visual noise, other players, and the need to physically pick it all up.

We could have a fundamentally better loot system in Warframe, and this wheel-spinning business with vacuum is really disappointing.