Bladestorm rework feedback

[aerosoul1337]

5 hours ago, VergilDT said:

Exactly. Ash kills, he's one of few frames that are purely offensive and does well at high levels. Having CC or support makes no sense in his design. He doesn't need it, His offensive abilities are his support, The enemy can't hurt your team if they're dead. A good Ash player will use BS to keep swarms off of teammates getting overrun or protect the person rezzing a teammate and not just spam for ever. I run a sword alone Ash and I only use BS when actually needed. It's the player that makes Ash no team friendly, not his kit. With a limit of only 18 targets there are tons of weapons/abilities in game that can kill more and faster than ash ever could. By slowing down his ult they are guaranteeing ash will no longer be played beyond maybe lv30 content.

Hated? so the tons of threads condemning this obviously bogus and unneeded rework are an illusion? Shuriken is probably the only part of his kit that needs to be looked at as after level 40-50 it's no longer useful.

Back in the day of vanilla Blade Storm, Ash didn't have clone so it kill very very slow. And steel charge didn't effect it.
And then we have 2 more clones to triple the progress.
And before Saryn and Mesa changed, blade storm was rarely complained (except some old game breaking bugs), because old miasma and peacemaker just kill things instantly.

And then, blade storm is buffed indirectly:
1.The introduction of Arcane Trickery.
2.The change of: Melee finisher effected by Fury mod.
3.The introduction of Primed Fury.

Blade storm became so effective and it steals team members' kill, that's where hate came from.
So after Saryn and Mesa's change, blade storm became the fastest killing ability. A.K.A. press 4 to win.

The problem is, they just slow him down, this doesn't really make it skillful nor interactive.
DE just moves backward, it feels like the vanilla (slow) blade storm. And I noticed that Ash's clones only attack multi-tagged targets, so it is even slower than vanilla, because you need LoS to build the marks 1 by 1.

Your marked targets got killed by your teammates before you perform it, just like the vanilla version.
And this also creates new problems such as control issue, and blade storm still not synergies with his other abilities.
 

Edited October 10, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[BlitzkriegBob]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's actually a good change, as the pow str / no duration metabuild was the alpha and omega, so yeah, we got more diversity by making duration a desirable stat instead of a dump stat. You don't really need a duration build actually, Smoke Screen by default gives 8s invisibility, that should be enough to mark targets, so you don't really need a dedicated duration build. So the only thing you need not to use is Fleeting Expertise or Transient Fortitude.

I get your point, and I really hope you're right. I just disagree with you about the power strength build being "ultimate", as duration build is also a good choice for people who like to go stealth (together with some range and a dagger with covert lethality, this really feel like an assassin thing and is my go-to build actually; in fact this will not be affected by the rework, so well...). What i'm affraid is that the new alfa and omega becomes just a balanced build with a little bit of everything (strength, duration, efficiency) but no real pro or cons, just something, you konw... average...

[Nazrethim]

11 minutes ago, BlitzkriegBob said:

I get your point, and I really hope you're right. I just disagree with you about the power strength build being "ultimate", as duration build is also a good choice for people who like to go stealth (together with some range and a dagger with covert lethality, this really feel like an assassin thing and is my go-to build actually; in fact this will not be affected by the rework, so well...). What i'm affraid is that the new alfa and omega becomes just a balanced build with a little bit of everything (strength, duration, efficiency) but no real pro or cons, just something, you konw... average...

I'm not precisely against the pow str build, nor I favor duration build. I just think people are too reliant on Corrupted mods for everything and that the 4 power stats should be more or less equally important, not one or two being the good stats and the other just dump stats.

[(PSN)youngweezy345]

I kinda want it to where it works like inaros dessication where in a cone-shaped area he throws a fan of shuriken's

[SpadaNgDios]

I have a Ash

I have a rework

Ugh

Bladestorm Nerf

[MasterControl]

Honestly, I feel as though the Ash rework is fairly uninspired and will be incredibly clunky to use. While I admit the press 4 win needs to go away, there are different ways of doing it.

First, I'd like to say I know why the bladestorm rework likely works as it does. It's preparation for the tech that will be used in the Limbo rework, on his 1. But it's just not fast enough for Ash. Why not convert Teleport into a single-target bladestorm if you happen to be aiming at an enemy? Save it's use for particularly heavy enemies, making Ash an assassin instead of a crowd clearer. Then, once you were skilled with the power, you could use it to bounce around and stab baddies by actually aiming for each individual target, making the power more interactive, give it more control all while reducing 4 spam. While you're at it, make Teleport activateable on any surface, allowing it to retain it's mobility aspect. If you're really dead set on having Ash having that sweeping kill ability, it'd likely be better suited for Shuriken. Tap to cast as normal, hold for marking enemies. I hate to be the one to suggest that Ash needs a new 4, but honestly that's probably the best solution. I'd rather it not be an exalted weapon personally, but that said I can't think of anything else either.

[aerosoul1337]

If you mark 18 targets, you will have to see the animation 18 times instead of 6 times because Ash's clones only attack multi-tagged targets.
Slow build and slow execution, what if multiple Ash players mark the same targets, it causes conflict to each other.

After I saw the demo, I feel the dev is out of ideas.
Just rework his ultimate completely (and also tweak his other utilities), I feel it doesn't have to be "blade storm" anymore.

Edited October 10, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[DeadlyBard676]

i'd just like to remind everyone that they said that the rework they showed was a Prototype and not the final version.

I'm going to wait til i have the final version before i make any judgements.

Edited October 10, 2016 by KiryuKusakabe

[aerosoul1337]

12 hours ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

 I hate to be the one to suggest that Ash needs a new 4, but honestly that's probably the best solution. I'd rather it not be an exalted weapon personally, but that said I can't think of anything else either.

A full rework for Ash is probably better, because...

1.Ash's Shuriken fails to hit target often, even with clean LoS.

2.Smoke screen is a poor version of invisible.

3.Teleport is not reliable even with Fatal teleport augment
 -If the targeted enemy is moving fast enough (such as a running Charger), the finisher will fail.
 -Some melee classes may fail to trigger Finishers on the target. This is currently present with the Nikana series.
 -Teleporting while sliding will fail to trigger a finisher on the target.

4.The new blade storm doesn't work well.

And all his abilities do not synergy with each other.

Edited October 10, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

They said that this is an experiment. 
I myself don't like the change ash is clunky with the change. It just seems like the animated version of his 3rd skill.

in endgame you might be dead before you can mark enemies when the cloak finishes.

 

[-CM-Zenshadow]

On 10/8/2016 at 5:03 AM, Windspike said:

I think you might have misunderstood them (or maybe I did?)  I think they meant, you press 4 to activate bladestorm.  Then you hold (what I assumed was) your fire button (i.e. left mouse button) and sweep your crosshairs across the enemies you want to kill (repeatedly if you want to mark them for more hits), then let go when ready.  The way Reb was doing it was seamless and quick, and she held it and ran for awhile.  Holding down the 4 button would be very clunky, I agree, so I hope I understood it right.  Think I'm going to watch the stream again to be sure.

Tapping 4 to mark won't be better than sweeping across targets either though.  You can miss the click and delay the whole effect.

EDIT:  Ugh, yep, I misunderstood it.  I'll wait to play it to give it a proper critique, but it sounds weird, yeah.  Agreed.

We'll just have to wait to see what they mean. I'm not half-sure they fully know what they are talking about.

[-CM-Zenshadow]

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

This new bladestorm seems like a very effective way of killing synthesis targets.

"No, no no NO! You've wasted the specimen! Was I wrong to entrust Synthesis to you?!"

[-Ba-ikebothun]

Do not make enemies invulnerable.

Edited October 10, 2016 by -Ba-ikebothun

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

I only seen two types of comments regarding ash's bladestorm change

1.( A long detailed list of problems the bladestorm change has, and how it doesn't fix anything, but instead adds more problems)

2.( Warframe players who doesn't even play ash saying how the change is perfect, and automatically assume that anybody who disagree are bladestorm spammers)

[_Iye]

Warframe is a speed-ninja game and holding down the '4' button being in the midst of hordes and to target/scan them hinders the play style of an assassin or if rushed then B.S wont work as expected as it wont be able to target that many enemies that quickly. Yeah B.S does steal the co-op function as it locks down the enemies for the others and in some cases becomes the reason of mission failure as well. Sortie is a more rushing endgame warframe offers where you need to kill as quick as possible otherwise you are doomed and in this case after the rework, if you take much time targeting then time-life status is in question or if just cover a few enemies to save time then energy-mission status is question. This is why I think something different is in need to develop for Ash's Bladestorm. My mind says,

1. Keeping the B.S as usual removing the invulnerability of the enemies so that others can hit/kill. (Being locked down with an Ancient is really annoying)

        1.1. If you don't wanna remove enemy invulnerability (I wonder why not?) then limit the B.S count per enemy to 5 hits only or even both including invulnerability removal if possible. (kill it or leave it)

        1.2. A cool down timer of a few seconds and/or a charge up meter which needs to be maxed-up by killing enemies with melee weapon to use B.S again, just like focus recharge meter. For any reason if you dont wanna consider Charge-up meter then Cool Down Timer will have an increased duration of cool down. (No spamming confirmed)

2. Keeping the sortie radiation hazard in mind, can it be done like automatically B.S won't target enemies those are already actively engaged by a tenno or under hazard (radiation, fire, thunder etc.)

3. Setting the minimum casting energy cost to 75 w/o efficiency mods having any effect to reduce the cost any lower than that. No additional energy cost function is needed here as cool down time & recharging both will discourage players from spamming and spoiling the game.

4. During B.S active Ash won't engage with his clones & will be vulnerable to hit/damage as his movement will be like Nyx-Assimilate and with that slower movement speed (re-considerable) he wont be able to use any weapons accept for his powers (synergy) (you can't do anything currently anyway). In this case I suggest-

        4.1 Smoke screen will save him from enemy hits for a little duration based on a percentage of the actual smoke screen duration which is effected by duration mods. (No energy cost please as now he is totally invincible but this change will allow players to save themselves for short period of time during B.S, so no energy cost please)

        4.2 Shuriken will target more enemies extending the B.S effect (Energy cost has to be lowered a bit to make it balanced)

        4.3 Fatal teleport will make ash to engage an enemy to use the B.S by himself. (Energy cost must be lowered)

Overall it shouldn't be something which eats up all the energy and must be a balanced setup which ensure synergy and allow players to remain mobile but of-course using a combo function during B.S.

 

Open to any and all kinds of constructive criticism.

Edited October 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[NativeKiller]

I saw this one thread that proposed turning Bladestorm into a toggle ability.

 

When you press 4, Ash would adopt a stance.

 

Then, when you hit E, Ash would dash towards the aimed enemy in range then attack it once.

 

For every time you hit E, Ash will hit the enemy.

 

Ash and the attacked enemy will have no invincibility when Bladestorm is active.

 

It will be something like the current Archwing melee system, and would practically be "press 4 to toggle the ability then spam E to win".

 

Still, it could be better than the "force all squad members to watch you wail on that Ancient Disruptor for half an eternity" that we have right now.

Edited October 10, 2016 by NativeKiller
BS against aimed enemy not closest

[_Iye]

1 minute ago, NativeKiller said:

I saw this one thread that proposed turning Bladestorm into a toggle ability.

When you press 4, Ash would adopt a stance.

Then, when you hit E, Ash would dash towards the closest enemy in range then attack it once.

If you keep hitting E, Ash will keep hitting the closest enemy until one of them dies.

Ash will have no invincibility when Bladestorm is active.

It will be something like the Archwing melee system, and be practically spam "E" to win, but it will be better than the "force all squad members to watch you wail on that Ancient Disruptor for half an eternity" if you ask me.

Well, we still spamming right? From many to a single enemy when it comes to enemy invincibility so based on his power strength players will keep doing that and also it doesn't ensure any synergy with his other powers which I tried to bring up in my suggestion. Most of all it will kill the Ash character for which he is special for.

[TrinityPrime]

Last I remember, making the enemy invul while being blade stormed was to fix a bug that occurred when someone else killed the target during the animation, which caused ash/prime to be stuck with his assassin blades out unable to attack or be affected by gravity (which made for some interesting sky slide flying selfies).  

I don't think they ever went back and fixed this so I expect enemies will still be invul during the new BS.

[NativeKiller]

18 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

Well, we still spamming right? From many to a single enemy when it comes to enemy invincibility so based on his power strength players will keep doing that and also it doesn't ensure any synergy with his other powers which I tried to bring up in my suggestion. Most of all it will kill the Ash character for which he is special for.

Ash and the attacked enemy will have no invincibility when Bladestorm is active.

^^^^^

 

This really isn't my own idea but I think it could give Ash better ability synergy than what it has right now.

 

For example;

 

1) Press 4 to toggle 'Bladestorm'

2) Hit a heavy enemy with augmented shuriken to remove armor completely

3) Close the distance against the enemy with 'Bladestorm' dash

4) Pop up 'Smoke Screen'

5) Spam 'E' until the enemy is dead, then kill all lesser mooks around with E spam as well

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Admittedly, this version of Bladestorm would have a lot in common with 'Teleport'.

 

However, Teleport would be more for 'Covert Lethality + Fatal Teleport' long range sniping while 'Bladestorm' would be more suitable for fast DPS.

Edited October 10, 2016 by NativeKiller

[_Iye]

2 minutes ago, TrinityPrime said:

Last I remember, making the enemy invul while being blade stormed was to fix a bug that occurred when someone else killed the target during the animation, which caused ash/prime to be stuck with his assassin blades out unable to attack or be affected by gravity (which made for some interesting sky slide flying selfies).  

I don't think they ever went back and fixed this so I expect enemies will still be invul during the new BS.

But thats one of his main team sync problems right? along with the rad proc one? If that was fixed then people may not've complained the way they did.

[_Iye]

3 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

Ash and the attacked enemy will have no invincibility when Bladestorm is active. - (This's something everyone is complaining and demanding for)

 

1) Press 4 to toggle 'Bladestorm' - (Toggle, hmm, means while active you can keep repeating the process until energy runs out)

j2) Hit a heavy enemy  with augmented shuriken to remove armor completely - (That would be clearly OP and again shuriken is always bugged so it may not function as desired)

3) Close the distance against the enemy with 'Bladestorm' dash - Bladestorm Dash!! A new power? or we could just use the F.T? or I just didn't get your point.

4) Pop up 'Smoke Screen' - Why? Function?

5) Spam 'E' until the enemy is dead, then kill all lesser mooks around with E spam as well. (Again, if you meant a single enemy then it'd clearly make Ash loose his character specialty as a massacre assassin.)

 

[NativeKiller]

2 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

 

I am not here to fight you nor start something,

 

I just talked about someone else's suggestion that I thought was noteworthy.

 

If you are going to continue showing that kind of an attitude towards me, I really don't see much reason to deal with you.

Edited October 10, 2016 by NativeKiller

[_Iye]

2 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

I am not here to fight you nor start something,

I just talked about someone else's suggestion that I thought was noteworthy.

If you are going to continue showing that kind of an attitude towards me, I really don't see much reason to deal with you.

hey hey I wasnt' being rude at all and why'd I be. I was just replying to you on point. No one is fighting here or attacking. Sorry if any of my words seemed rude to you. Besides, I was feeling good having you replying with Ash's changing points, why would you take it that way.

Edited October 10, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[NativeKiller]

4 minutes ago, AhmadIYE said:

 

Well, they seemed unnecessarily hostile and aggressive to me.

 

Next time, you may want to be more careful about how you write and state your opinions.

[_Iye]

1 minute ago, NativeKiller said:

unnecessarily hostile and aggressive

Well that's scary as hell. but I didn't even mean a thing which you mentioned. I wonder why it seemed that way :(