body diversity in lady frames

[RunningTree3]

4 hours ago, Beggining said:

Please refrain from exaggerating others' posts, you'll start something worse. Personally, I'd prefer if we can reason rationally with gameplay, lore, and other conventions as evidence.

Thank you :)

So far this has been a very reasoned discussion, and I applaud all participants for the thoughtful contributions.

[Ibro156]

6 hours ago, Beggining said:

Please refrain from exaggerating others' posts, you'll start something worse. Personally, I'd prefer if we can reason rationally with gameplay, lore, and other conventions as evidence.

Thank you :)

Okay, your kinda getting on my nerves with "SJW" and pointing fingers, instead of bringing a valid point on to the table. Everyone here has made good points on both side. So far it seems to be you and few others who you accusing of someone being sexist or social justice warrior. 

I mean lore wise. Orokin were pumpus people who love Symmetry and beauty. Having muscle female frame dosen't break this rule because it can be symterical, and two "beauty" depends on eye of the beholder.

Secondly, don't try to bring logic into warframe. I mean, everyone here has accepted the fact Warframe ain't human. So they don't have out limitations. They just happened to have been given same forms as humans. Even then Nova is able to flips and spins with Scindo Prime and that thing looks really heavy. Like or not, but having muscles in fights does matter.

Here the thing; Warframe goes by "Rule of cool". They don't really seem to care about logic too much, when it comes to gameplay.

[Beggining]

56 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

Okay, your kinda getting on my nerves with "SJW" and pointing fingers, instead of bringing a valid point on to the table. Everyone here has made good points on both side. So far it seems to be you and few others who you accusing of someone being sexist or social justice warrior.

Ummm, I did no such thing. I was asking for the person to not overexaggerate what the others were talking about: so far, the chat seemed civil to me >.>

58 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

I mean lore wise. Orokin were pompous people who love Symmetry and beauty. Having muscle female frame dosen't break this rule because it can be symmetrical, and two "beauty" depends on eye of the beholder.

I wasn't disagreeing with you on that part, I was just pointing out that the Orokin followed the traditional convention of gender roles. It doesn't mean that we can't have musclebound frame girls if you want to.

1 hour ago, Ibro156 said:

Secondly, don't try to bring logic into warframe. I mean, everyone here has accepted the fact Warframe ain't human. So they don't have out limitations. They just happened to have been given same forms as humans. Even then Nova is able to flips and spins with Scindo Prime and that thing looks really heavy. Like or not, but having muscles in fights does matter.

Give DE more credit than that: the design on their frames, no matter how different they are, follow a certain theme that they were assigned to, making it feel as if there were only one creator: the Orokin. It doesn't have to follow logic on certain aspects, yes, but it has to be consistent.

1 hour ago, Ibro156 said:

Here's the thing; Warframe goes by "Rule of cool". They don't really seem to care about logic too much, when it comes to gameplay.

True, in terms of gameplay. I was defending my point in terms of lore, which DE is being consistent on (or at least, anything besides the Nullifiers)

I hope this answer your points sufficiently.

[arch111]

I kind of agree, but at the same time I don't get it.

When you look at this, what do you notice - without thinking about it.

What was it? Was it breasts? More specifically CHESTS? It was for me. Let me tell you why.

The diversity in male warframes do not stem primarily from bodytypes, but usage of the siluette and torso/chest/waist.

Compare the chest down to the thigh on all males. See how different they are in style and theme.

Now compare the chest down to the thigh on all the females. See how underused this area is and how many points align. Its allmost like that old saying that we have to know that we are lookig at a woman so she must have boobs and hips.

This is the core to me. Imagine if there was a woman in a coat, like Frost, Limbo and Hydroid. What if a woman had a suit of armor like Loki, a robe like Oberon ond a cheatplate like Rhino and Volt.

It sets them apart more.

[Beggining]

5 minutes ago, arch111 said:

It sets them apart more.

I like this point: it's sort of like how all TF2 characters possess their very own unique silhouette, without being too different from each other. This way, you can take a glance at each frame and go "that's so and so" :D

[CrazyValkyr]

More diversity never hurts anyone.

Rant mode: What gets me, nowadays it is fairly popular & apparently 'trendy', when people voice they want that diversity for female characters that goes out of the usual tropes, it must be some 'social justice warrior' or a feminist. Yeah, right. Nope. /Rant off

I personally think that female frames could definitelly do a little better in this area and would love some full-armored buff tank female frame, without the usual clichee's (ie boobs shaped armor, yep, it's ridiculous for many, many reasons). There are more features to a female than her booty, boobies and hips. I think @arch111 expressed it fairly well. Nothing wrong with what we have, but adding up more layers in terms of armors/clothing would be great to have. I've always wanted Valkyr to be properly armored, with her having the highest armor base in the game, because that'd make sense - but that's just me. In the end, aesthetics are the eye of the beholder and more variety will attract people, whereas less will not.

/howgh

Edited October 10, 2016 by jodarkrider

[phantasmalWordsmith]

I read that a lot of people on this topic like to argue that either it wouldn't fit in with Warframe's visual thematics, and / or it wouldn't be "realistic".

I feel like there should be a better distinction in discussions between "believable" and "realistic". Believable to mean that it makes enough sense that we don't notice it. Realistic to mean that it emulates reality. E.g. Bullet Jumping. We believe it because the crouch required to perform it is similar to how we bend our knees to store a little extra power before pushing off the ground for a bigger jump so it makes a certain sense to our brains and we don't think about it, however the length and height of the jump is well above what can be achieve in most circumstances in reality. 

So I definitely think we could have a stocky & muscular female 'frame - and we should, if not for representation, then at least for some visual variation - and it would fit in with the visual design of Warframes (visual thematics are simple as a lack of clear eyes or face, and be believable with my main argument being that if Atlas can fit in, so can a stocky / muscular female 'frame. 

See, way I see it, we have something of a gradient in body types - at least for the Males. Thin & slender ones like Nezha, Nekros, and Limbo. Average builds like Excalibur, Volt, and Ash. Stockier and wider frames like Rhino, Vauban, and Frost, with Atlas being a very extreme example in the sheer size and breadth of his shoulders which then narrow down at the waist. Atlas's physique is very unique and is most definitely a very identifiable silhouette. 

Compare this with the female 'frames. We got very small Titania, and then many who all have a fairly similar body: Mag, Nyx, Nova, Mirage, Mesa, Valkyr, and so on. On the stockier, bigger side of the spectrum for females, there's Saryn I suppose who's a big wider and physically imposing than the others. 

As for realism about "physiques built by training, thus not able to do the things a warframe does"... I'm not sure that stands up as an argument. Atlas does not look especially Acrobatic, nor does Nezha look like he should be able to lift an Opticor easily or swing a Fragor P' easily. I think if we could believe in a stockier female 'frame once we had one and to be honest, I think a lot of the nay sayers wouldn't complain if it arrived except maybe a few problem people (y'know, the ones that give the forums a bad name) cause it mostly seems like a case that the art team designing this hypothetical 'frame would just have to get it right. 

[Gr33hn]

With a top hat stage magician frame and a nezha child frame in the game arguing that a zarya frame wouldnt fit is a bit silly.

[Marvelous_A]

Actually Saryn is one of the bulkier female frame if you mean it. There will be more but I think the priority is to suit the theme of the frame.

[arch111]

2 hours ago, jodarkrider said:

More diversity never hurts anyone.

Rant mode: What gets me, nowadays it is fairly popular & apparently 'trendy', when people voice they want that diversity for female characters that goes out of the usual tropes, it must be some 'social justice warrior' or a feminist. Yeah, right. Nope. /Rant off

I personally think that female frames could definitelly do a little better in this area and would love some full-armored buff tank female frame, without the usual clichee's (ie boobs shaped armor, yep, it's ridiculous for many, many reasons). There are more features to a female than her booty, boobies and hips. I think @arch111 expressed it fairly well. Nothing wrong with what we have, but adding up more layers in terms of armors/clothing would be great to have. I've always wanted Valkyr to be properly armored, with her having the highest armor base in the game, because that'd make sense - but that's just me. In the end, aesthetics are the eye of the beholder and more variety will attract people, whereas less will not.

/howgh

A LONG time ago I was doing this to Valkyr,  or trying to. That was well before.Tennogen and even Gersemi.

I still plan on doing a buld of her that looks like she is armored.

[PapaFragolino]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

You forgot to check physically able for war 

Fashion war.

[heskaroid]

At first I thought this thread was gonna be some Hugh Mungus feminist meme, but I was wrong.

I wouldn't really mind having a bulky female in the game. Bulky, but not exaggerated like Zarya.

[arch111]

Just now, heskaroid said:

At first I thought this thread was gonna be some Hugh Mungus feminist meme, but I was wrong.

I wouldn't really mind having a bulky female in the game. Bulky, but not exaggerated like Zarya.

You mean buff like Nezha is lean?

[heskaroid]

Just now, arch111 said:

You mean buff like Nezha is lean?

Pardon me?

[Doom_Bunny]

2 hours ago, arch111 said:

I kind of agree, but at the same time I don't get it.

When you look at this, what do you notice - without thinking about it.

The diversity in male warframes do not stem primarily from bodytypes, but usage of the siluette and torso/chest/waist.

Compare the chest down to the thigh on all males. See how different they are in style and theme.

Now compare the chest down to the thigh on all the females. See how underused this area is and how many points align. Its allmost like that old saying that we have to know that we are lookig at a woman so she must have boobs and hips.

This is the core to me. Imagine if there was a woman in a coat, like Frost, Limbo and Hydroid. What if a woman had a suit of armor like Loki, a robe like Oberon ond a cheatplate like Rhino and Volt.

I see a picture that does not feature all the warframes up to Chroma or all the current warframes. I also see diverse body types, hell just after Frost you have Nova, Banshee, Trinity, and Ember grouped together. Is it because they have breast that you find them not diverse?

This last paragraph doesn't appear to be line with the OP but more pushing your own agenda.

[Mak_Gohae]

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

The diversity in male warframes do not stem primarily from bodytypes, but usage of the siluette and torso/chest/waist.

Yeah, that's what body types are, different structure to the different sections of the body.

[arch111]

Ok so theres some confusion here.

1 hour ago, Postal_pat said:

I see a picture that does not feature all the warframes up to Chroma or all the current warframes. I also see diverse body types, hell just after Frost you have Nova, Banshee, Trinity, and Ember grouped together. Is it because they have breast that you find them not diverse?

This last paragraph doesn't appear to be line with the OP but more pushing your own agenda.

You seriously do not think that the males do a better job of transforming the shape into their own identity? 

And no, even Trinity, Banshee and Mesa stay very close to their default bodytype of Mag and Nyx. Much more so than Volt and Limbo stays close to Excalibur and Ash.

And I have no Agenda. I just don't get how the ideas in the OP are doable. So I suggest looking at the males who have done a good job of this, despite having close to the same bodymass.

12 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Yeah, that's what body types are, different structure to the different sections of the body.

Lol. How can I argue with that?

[WindBlade]

22 hours ago, (XB1)Beck117 said:

Being fat is still an unhealthy lifestyle and shouldn't be encoraged especially in games like Warframe where we play as space ninjas. 

 

22 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

Those opposing the idea of "fat ninjas" might note that no-one here is even necessarily advocating for it.

It would be prudent to acknowledge the distinction between fat and large -- that there can be largeness due to fat, but also largeness due to muscle. Or even largeness in appearance because of just being heavily armoured (even heavily infested, perhaps).

I would say to this - look up Samo Hung, and the kind of martial arts he did. (not currently in a position to link stuff, but will try later). One of the greatest martial arts stars, though its fair to say he used his combination of bodytype and the kind of moves he could do for comedy (kinda like how Jackie Chan played his unassuming appearance/crazy skills off for comedy)

[Doom_Bunny]

12 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Ok so theres some confusion here.

You seriously do not think that the males do a better job of transforming the shape into their own identity? 

And no, even Trinity, Banshee and Mesa stay very close to their default bodytype of Mag and Nyx. Much more so than Volt and Limbo stays close to Excalibur and Ash.

And I have no Agenda. I just don't get how the ideas in the OP are doable. So I suggest looking at the males who have done a good job of this, despite having close to the same bodymass.

No, I think all the frames do a brilliant job of it.

You're cherry-picking evidence and backpedaling your previous post. In your previous post you suggested that we switch the female clothing with the males, now you're saying just compare the differences of all males and females.

Ash, Oberon, and Volt are much closer to the basic bodies of Excal and Loki. However the bodies of Valkyr, Nova, and Equinox are worlds apart from the body types of Saryn and Zephyr. You see what I have done here? I have cherry-picked evidence to push my own argument. It is completely dismiss-able as all I've done is pick the frames with smaller diversities for males and females with more diversities. Showing the opposite of your idea that males are more diverse and females aren't so, cancels both. Yes there are some males that more/less diverse, yes there are some females that are more/less diverse. It's not one sided.

 

[Mak_Gohae]

40 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Ok so theres some confusion here.

You seriously do not think that the males do a better job of transforming the shape into their own identity? 

And no, even Trinity, Banshee and Mesa stay very close to their default bodytype of Mag and Nyx. Much more so than Volt and Limbo stays close to Excalibur and Ash.

And I have no Agenda. I just don't get how the ideas in the OP are doable. So I suggest looking at the males who have done a good job of this, despite having close to the same bodymass.

 

Banshee, Saryn, and Mirage are the only 3 that dont follow the standard slim figure that most female frames have.

 

Quote

Lol. How can I argue with that?

Like this

Spoiler

 

[senatorspade]

Thanks everyone for being mature and discussing the topic in a respectful manner, I'm glad we can hear thoughts from all sides. 

[arch111]

52 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

No, I think all the frames do a brilliant job of it.

You're cherry-picking evidence and backpedaling your previous post. In your previous post you suggested that we switch the female clothing with the males, now you're saying just compare the differences of all males and females.

Ash, Oberon, and Volt are much closer to the basic bodies of Excal and Loki. However the bodies of Valkyr, Nova, and Equinox are worlds apart from the body types of Saryn and Zephyr. You see what I have done here? I have cherry-picked evidence to push my own argument. It is completely dismiss-able as all I've done is pick the frames with smaller diversities for males and females with more diversities. Showing the opposite of your idea that males are more diverse and females aren't so, cancels both. Yes there are some males that more/less diverse, yes there are some females that are more/less diverse. It's not one sided.

 

It feels like you are arguing with me; but I can't see the argument.

The OP asked for more diverse and possibly buff female models. I support this and have made a case for it in the past.

I allso recognise that females in warframe are athletic rather than skinny, a point the nosayers often go to. For this reason we can't just make a large/fat female just for the sake of having one.

The usage of the hear and "garment" is the way warframes are built, I simply made a case for being just as crative with females as with males. My opinion this, you don't have to agree.

And I am not talking genderswaps now. Been down that discussion a long time ago.

So again, please tell me why we are arguing when we seem to be agreeing o-O ?

[arch111]

 

Thanks everyone for being mature and discussing the topic in a respectful manner, I'm glad we can hear thoughts from all sides. 

Yes this and the Genderswaps are the two possibly most volatile and toxic subjects around.

Allso glad this kept a classy note.

[CrazyValkyr]

10 minutes ago, senatorspade said:

Thanks everyone for being mature and discussing the topic in a respectful manner, I'm glad we can hear thoughts from all sides. 

We don't always have to agree with each other to be able to be friendly & civil with each other. Such is the beauty of diversity among the gaming communities; different tastes, different opinions.
Now, if only we could get to the stage when people accept that just because something exists or is desired and they don't necessarily like it, it doesn't hurt them in any way, and allow others have something nice to their liking too. :)

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

7 hours ago, arch111 said:

I kind of agree, but at the same time I don't get it.

When you look at this, what do you notice - without thinking about it.

What was it? Was it breasts? More specifically CHESTS? It was for me. Let me tell you why.

The diversity in male warframes do not stem primarily from bodytypes, but usage of the siluette and torso/chest/waist.

Compare the chest down to the thigh on all males. See how different they are in style and theme.

Now compare the chest down to the thigh on all the females. See how underused this area is and how many points align. Its allmost like that old saying that we have to know that we are lookig at a woman so she must have boobs and hips.

This is the core to me. Imagine if there was a woman in a coat, like Frost, Limbo and Hydroid. What if a woman had a suit of armor like Loki, a robe like Oberon ond a cheatplate like Rhino and Volt.

It sets them apart more.

Frames are missing..that is all