give us infinite ammo

[UltimateSpinDash]

Haven't seen you in a while.

I'm okay with having weapons with regenerative ammo (energy weapons for example, which might make stuff like Ammo Drum almost useful), but aside from that the problem with ammo-inefficient weapon isn't the fact that we have ammo in the first place. The problem is that a pistol ammo pickup always restores 20 ammo, regardless of if you're using the Kohmak or the Lex Prime.

I can live with a powerful weapon being ammo inefficient by design (Synoid Gammacor says hello), but there are many weapons that are both weak and ammo inefficient or strong and ammo efficient.
One way to actually solve the problem would be a special stat that increases or decreases the amount of ammo obtained from pickups. Want to nerf the Boltor Prime without actually making it weaker? Make it only get half the ammo other weapons do. At the same time you could double the amount of ammo weapons like the Gorgon family or Kohm get.

[IX-44]

Nah.

[Jackviator]

5 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Having to use the qualifier "Even More" before the word Broken sort of...invalidates the argument. If its already broken, there's little sense in worrying about it at this point, from a balance perspective.

So if something needs to be fixed from a design standpoint, why not make the problem even worse before addressing it? Is that what the point here is? Because that makes little to no sense to me. Yes, DE could stand to look at the balance of their game without using bandaid mods (looking at you Harkonar Scope and Body Count), but unbalancing the game even more so than it is already isn't the way to go.

And if we're addressing the QOL/balance of the guns you mentioned, like the Braton Prime and other bullet hose weapons that always seem to come up empty, all that's really needed there is just a brief look at the ammo received per pickup/how many rounds can be carried in reserve. A tweak or two from the dev team, when they can find the spare time and if enough people complain about the issue.

Also, for the time being, team ammo restores could be carried around for any situation where one runs out of ammo. Or you could switch to your other gun, or melee, or break open a couple loot containers in the immediate area. Options exist to combat the lack of bullets in most situations.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Jackviator
sp.

[KnightCole]

1 hour ago, UltimateSpinDash said:

Haven't seen you in a while.

I'm okay with having weapons with regenerative ammo (energy weapons for example, which might make stuff like Ammo Drum almost useful), but aside from that the problem with ammo-inefficient weapon isn't the fact that we have ammo in the first place. The problem is that a pistol ammo pickup always restores 20 ammo, regardless of if you're using the Kohmak or the Lex Prime.

I can live with a powerful weapon being ammo inefficient by design (Synoid Gammacor says hello), but there are many weapons that are both weak and ammo inefficient or strong and ammo efficient.
One way to actually solve the problem would be a special stat that increases or decreases the amount of ammo obtained from pickups. Want to nerf the Boltor Prime without actually making it weaker? Make it only get half the ammo other weapons do. At the same time you could double the amount of ammo weapons like the Gorgon family or Kohm get.

Ammo pickup should be based on the ammo pool of the weapon.  10% of the total ammo pool for the gun, affected by mods.  So, the Soma Prime, 200/800 for 1000, would be 100 per ammo pickup, or how ive got my Soma Prime, 240/800, so 1040, would be 104 per pick up.  Aksomati, its 70/210, so 280, 28 per ammo pickup, or how ive got it, I think its like 115/210, so 325, so 32.5 per ammo pickup.  Though really, guns like the Aksomati could use more bullets in the first place.  70/210 up to more like 70/540. 

[UltimateSpinDash]

2 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

So if something needs to be fixed from a design standpoint, why not make the problem even worse before addressing it? Because that makes little to no sense to me. Yes, DE could stand to look at the balance of their game without using bandaid mods (looking at you Harkonar Scope and Body Count), but unbalancing the game even more so than it is already isn't the way to go.

Also, DE has integrated some popular "band-aids" into the standard mechanics before.

 

1 minute ago, KnightCole said:

Ammo pickup should be based on the ammo pool of the weapon.  10% of the total ammo pool for the gun, affected by mods.  So, the Soma Prime, 200/800 for 1000, would be 100 per ammo pickup, or how ive got my Soma Prime, 240/800, so 1040, would be 104 per pick up.  Aksomati, its 70/210, so 280, 28 per ammo pickup, or how ive got it, I think its like 115/210, so 325, so 32.5 per ammo pickup.  Though really, guns like the Aksomati could use more bullets in the first place.  70/210 up to more like 70/540. 

As I said, some weapons are ammo-inefficient by design. In case of the Gammacor, it's the only real weakness (aside from range, which usually isn't an issue since enemies are rarely that far away).

Why waste a stat here that would allow for more varied balancing of weapons?

[SenariousNex]

Also give us infinite damage, make every shot of every weapon maxed 2147483647 damage, mean enemies die in 1 anyway, lets embrace the broken nature of warframe. Also give us an infinite fire rate and ammo clip so it fires as fast as the player can click, lets make warframe skills based again. Also make all the items available maxed at start of the game so we dunt have to play the game at all. Let's make warframe great again. 

 

WTB [Lobotomy] 10p

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 hours ago, Zachles said:

I don't know where you found that backwards definition, but it's wrong, and it heavily discriminates towards white people.

It's literally a word filter for "wapanese."

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Having to use the qualifier "Even More" before the word Broken sort of...invalidates the argument. If its already broken, there's little sense in worrying about it at this point, from a balance perspective. If DE werent so obsessed with tossing in nigh useless bandaid mods instead of actually balancing their game, we wouldnt have this issue.

honestly, unlimited ammo would be a welcome change. Launching into a mission with these superpowered Warframes and having barely sufficient ammo for auto pistols or a Braton Prime is...frankly stupid.

This guy/gal gets it.

Edited October 22, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[-N7-Leonhart]

Haha, that will never happen.

Why do you even bother? Or you do not realize how preposterous is what you are suggesting? Probably the latter.

Currently, I haven't seen not even one game that follows this ancient pattern, not even straight up mob shooters like Doom. In fact, those actually enforce ammo economy, like aggressive weapon switching.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, -BM-Leonhart said:

Haha, that will never happen.

Why do you even bother? Or you do not realize how preposterous is what you are suggesting? Probably the latter.

Currently, I haven't seen not even one game that follows this ancient pattern, not even straight up mob shooters like Doom. In fact, those actually enforce ammo economy, like aggressive weapon switching.

I know most of the things I suggest will never be implemented, no matter how much they would improve the game. That doesn't mean I shouldn't even suggest them.

I have mentioned a game series several times in this thread alone that uses infinite ammo.

 

[UltimateSpinDash]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I know most of the things I suggest will never be implemented, no matter how much they would improve the game. That doesn't mean I shouldn't even suggest them.

I have mentioned a game series several times in this thread alone that uses infinite ammo.

 

Probably because they wouldn't improve the game half as much as you think they would. I also don't see the relation between that game and Warframe. And "it's already broken, let's break it more" is not how you solve a game's issues.

Also, the way you demand these changes while at the same time no even using capital letters in your thread title doesn't help people take you seriously.

Edited October 22, 2016 by UltimateSpinDash

[KnightCole]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I know most of the things I suggest will never be implemented, no matter how much they would improve the game. That doesn't mean I shouldn't even suggest them.

I have mentioned a game series several times in this thread alone that uses infinite ammo.

 

And honestly, just from the few seconds from the start I watched, it looks as $&*&*#(%& as infinite ammo...

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

13 minutes ago, UltimateSpinDash said:

Probably because they wouldn't improve the game half as much as you think they would. I also don't see the relation between that game and Warframe. And "it's already broken, let's break it more" is not how you solve a game's issues.

Also, the way you demand these changes while at the same time no even using capital letters in your thread title doesn't help people take you seriously.

The relation is that it has a good mechanic that would benefit warframe, and I am suggesting that DE "borrow" said mechanic.

The game is already broken, so rather than slap another band-aid on it, wouldn't it be better to embrace it and have fun with it. That is basically what they did with bullet jumping and aim gliding.

Coptering was broken, but rather than just toss it aside, like the originally planned, they embraced it and rolled with it (aka "breaking it more"), making it an actual mechanic (again - bullet jumping and aim gliding) instead of just removing it like they originally planned. The game is better for it.

4 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

from the few seconds from the start I watched

If you didn't even watch a full minute of it, why would I listen to your opinion? That would not have even given you enough time to see the mechanic in effect. You don't even see his second weapon until around the 5 minute mark, and until you see both, you have no idea how the mechanic even works.

[Dumfing]

16 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Kohm, Amprex, Angstrum, etc. They have all fallen out of use because of ammo. Infinite ammo with adjusted reloads is the best way to deal with it.

Using your equation:

"New reload speed" = [30 / (("Old max ammo reserve capacity" + "max mag ammo") / "max mag ammo")] + "old reload speed" 

The Kohm will have a new reload of ~8s (from 2 seconds, 4x increase)

The Amprex will have a new reload of ~7.3s (from 2.7 seconds, 2.7x increase)

The Angstrum will have a new reload of ~5.2s (from 2.5 seconds 2x increase)

Are these times something you really want?

The Kohm sees a 4x increase in reload time which will essentially make reloading it a hindrance until you can get away from battle

[UltimateSpinDash]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

The relation is that it has a good mechanic that would benefit warframe, and I am suggesting that DE "borrow" said mechanic.

The game is already broken, so rather than slap another band-aid on it, wouldn't it be better to embrace it and have fun with it. That is basically what they did with bullet jumping and aim gliding.

Coptering was broken, but rather than just toss it aside, like the originally planned, they embraced it and rolled with it (aka "breaking it more"), making it an actual mechanic (again - bullet jumping and aim gliding) instead of just removing it like they originally planned. The game is better for it.

Bringing up other games is fine, but they should be comparable. Also "it would benefit Warframe" is not an argument.

The game is broken because it's in heavy development and everybody (the devs are probably divided on this as well) expects different things from it. That's not a reason to stop fixing it.

 

Coptering was in the game for a long time, not to mention that we also had stamina back then so we couldn't even sprint all the time. There was no way they could remove coptering without replacing it with something else, else there would be riots.
 

You on the other hand take a problem that most of the time isn't even there, make it out to be much bigger than it actually is, and then ask to have ammo reserves dropped altogether.

 

Ammo is finite, and the vast majority of weapons never run out regardless. Most of the others will do the same with ammo mutations. True, some of those would actually need the slot for something else. Yet ammo-efficiency is another form of balance as we saw with the Gammacor. It's also the main reason the Amprex isn't the go-to weapon (it may be short ranged but it kills everything within that range and has high status without IPS spread) for everyone.
That's why I said make ammo conversion a stat. Some weapons make better use of ammo pickups than others. That is what according to your own comparison, DE did with Coptering becoming Bullet Jumping.

Health is also finite, but we have health pizzas and Oberon and Trinity and all those ways to restore health, let's make health infinite instead of slapping on more "band aids" that don't actually fix the problem of us actually being able to die!

And if you bring a weapon that you know isn't ammo efficient you better bring a another that is, or rotate two that are inefficient and bridge the rest with melee or your Warframe abilities.

[Bobtm]

Before anything else, I'll start on this point;  EDF is a super campy, low budget, simple, mindless, niche crowd, cult classic type of game game.  I enjoy the heck out of that series, despite its impressively long list of flaws, because at the end of the day it's one of those "dumb fun" type of games.  However, it is precisely because it's a "dumb fun" game that mechanics like infinite ammo work so well for it.  As you (or any other who players EDF knows) that game does indeed have some incredibly lengthy reload times in it on various weaponry.  The whole reason super long reloads works in EDF however, is because of how impressively simple its gameplay boils down to.  The AI is about one notch above tree sap in EDF.

So, in short, trying to use EDF's model to justify a change to unlimited ammunition in Warframe is based in fallacy.  It works for EDF because of what EDF is as a game of its own.  Luckily for me Dumfing just covered precisely wherein this starts to poke through.  Having an 8 second reload totally flies in the face of everything so far seen in Warframe, a game that tends to prioritize low downtimes across every one of our capabilities (except Focus).

Your chosen formula for the new reload times is almost laughable.  It basically makes some weapons have almost nightmarish reload times, and makes even small mag weapons with already slow-ish reload times like a sniper even slower still than they are.  Having super long reload times like that doesn't really fit into the gameplay currently.

So with the formula out of the way let's look at other points of contention, first off the claims as to why this change is supposedly warranted.

 

20 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

truly embrace the arcadey feel of Warframe

In what way is Warframe supposedly "arcadey" precisely?

Games that are styled for arcades primarily showcase a very specific style of gameplay.  In which sessions of play feel more isolated in terms of how the player approaches them.  Take Street Fighter or any other fighting game as a starter example.  These games are arcade in style because you roll up for a play session of the main game mode, and play through a series of battles until you lose, or until you finish the short list of needed fights to reach the end.  Then, upon either failure or completion, you're done.  Those previously lost or won fights hold no sway nor bearings upon your, or another's next attempt at a bout.

Looking at Arcade styled racers, and we see the same thing.  An isolated style gameplay session comprised of sometimes one long race, or a series of 4-6 shorter races where one competes, and is then done.

The examples here continue onward pretty much forever, but this is the simple version;  Warframe by style and design is most assuredly not "arcadey" even by a stretched definition.  It's gameplay focuses on continuous progression over a very long term, improving and expanding one's available power and options over a long-term of multiple play sessions.

Warframe is also a game in which the collection of drops is at a core and centralized focus.  So having ammunition pickups (just like energy pickups) speaks to this end.  It fits and meshes well with the game's style, wherein drops are king.  One must acquire energy orbs to restore energy, or use another source.  One must pick up health orbs to restore HP, or use another source.  One must collect ammo pickups to restore ammo, or use another source.

And that's sort of the peculiar beauty of Warframe's system at the moment.  Of course there are many finer points that could do with a balance pass, it's a game where that same progression noted earlier opens up a wider scope of options.  A player eventually has the ability to carry and utilize Restores of various types during missions, consuming their massive resource piles for more in-game capabilities.

______________________________________________

As others have already covered throughout this thread, the current ammo system isn't perfect.  However it is a mostly functioning balancing factor among the weapons for this game, and despite having some flaws and inconsistencies it does do that job fairly well.  Look at the Synoid Gammacor for example.  It's a weapon with great DPS numbers, pinpoint accuracy, but low ammo efficiency.  You can still even now safely use this weapon during missions, even without relying on even Ammo Mutations, or Ammo Restores, just by bringing a weapon loadout to compensate for knowing your sidearm doesn't have endless sustainability.

If a player uses their options allotted in Warframe, ammo is really never an issue.  It's there to keep a player however, from using nothing but gun equivalents of giant gas guzzling trucks, without suffering either in build (by slotting non-damage mods for sustain), by forcing companion choice (limiting one from using an outstanding Kavat or other thing), or by forcing them to knowingly have to fall back more heavily on frame powers or their melee weapon.  Or even burn up lots of resources with some Restores.

Ammo exists not only as a part of the "pickup the pickups" type of thing that loot driven games thrive upon.  But it also exists as an appropriate limiting factor that makes a player stop and think about their loadout.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

20 hours ago, hazerddex said:

tigirs, tonkor, and simulor dont really suffer from ammo issues

but ammos a good balance for the bullet hose users :P

yeah and the issue is they never ran out of ammo

[Slaviar]

20 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Doesn't AW have infinite ammo?

It does but it's not plain infinite ammo. There's max ammo cap and every weapon restores it over time.

Anyway, I wonder if we all play same Warframe.
In Warframe I play top weapons- Synoid Gammacor Simulor, Tigris Prime, Vaykor Hek- are all very ammo efficient. All of them have serious trouble running out of ammo and all of them deal extreme amount of damage. How can you people even claim Soma Prime or Wraith Twin Vipers can rival it? Regardless of modding they are far behind aforementioned weapons. And without ammo mutations they are actually useless. They run out of ammo in no time. Twin Vipers can literally consume its entire reserve in twenty seconds.

High RoF weapons already have severe drawbacks. Increasing fire rate usually means increasing recoil. Speed at which they empty their clips makes them reload very frequently.

In other words, please stop. Balancing by ammo is, plain and simply, terrible idea. It doesn't balance weapon, it makes it at best less desirable, at worst useless. If weapon is too powerful lower its damage, not make it eat ammo like crazy. Lower damage weapon can still be useful but weapon which can't be sustained is not funny to use

Edited October 22, 2016 by Slaviar
Confused names of Suda's weapons

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 hours ago, Dumfing said:

Using your equation:

"New reload speed" = [30 / (("Old max ammo reserve capacity" + "max mag ammo") / "max mag ammo")] + "old reload speed" 

The Kohm will have a new reload of ~8s (from 2 seconds, 4x increase)

The Amprex will have a new reload of ~7.3s (from 2.7 seconds, 2.7x increase)

The Angstrum will have a new reload of ~5.2s (from 2.5 seconds 2x increase)

Are these times something you really want?

The Kohm sees a 4x increase in reload time which will essentially make reloading it a hindrance until you can get away from battle

Maybe the Kohm could catch a break, but for crap like the Amprex, that would be a pretty good balance. Have you seen what it can do with 4 or more forma? Pair it with a Mirage and no one else can even do anything. At least this way, top tier weapons that nuke everything, will have to be used in moderation, instead of clearing rooms instantly before lower leveled players even get to shoot at anything.

 

2 hours ago, Bobtm said:

-snip-

Warframe is dumb-fun (aka arcadey) too. Playing as Superman with a rocket launcher can't really be called anything else.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

14 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

It does but it's not plain infinite ammo. There's max ammo cap and every weapon restores it over time.

That's still infinite ammo.

[Slaviar]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's still infinite ammo.

Never denied it

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

10 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Never denied it

The at the very least we can agree that infinite ammo is not "out-of-place" in warframe.

[Stonehenge]

I have a better idea : Since we play this to walk and kill, why don't they give us infinite ammo and infinite energy ? And hell infinite Focus. YEAH that would be balanced.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, Stonehenge said:

I have a better idea : Since we play this to walk and kill, why don't they give us infinite ammo and infinite energy ? And hell infinite Focus. YEAH that would be balanced.

They do.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Well if anything it would make an interesting Aura Mod concept. Plus I wouldn't say no, my Soma Prime is just useless compared to the list of Shotguns in a long drawn out fight like a forty minute survival on an Axi run. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

"Universal" Infinite Ammo is a bad idea. Ammo mutation already does this, Ammo restores exist, Arch wing has infinite ammo, and mesa's 4 is infinite ammo as long as she has energy.... This thread is non sensical. And needs to be locked.  

Edited October 22, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74