Buffed Sniper Headshot Multipliers Were Fine, Change them Back

[Lemonpartydragon]

With a recent filler update we received a buff to Sniper headshot multipliers, boosting them from 2.0x to 2.5x. This guaranteed headshot kills on most (all?) frames, and gave snipers a really nice competitive boost.

There has been some contention in the past on this subforum that headshots in general are fairly unreliable, and while that is not necessarily untrue, Snipers carry a particular burden with the need to scope in and their utter lack of hipfire accuracy. Additionally, "random" headshots are much more problematic with weapons like automatics or high-ammo semiautomatics that employ headshots as a random and capricious damage boost due to their imprecision, whereas Snipers fire once with long downtime and high precision. Having 1HTK Sniper headshots is fine, and thematically consistent with the weapon class as it archetypally occurs.

The changes from Recurring Dreams: Hotfix 1:

Quote

Rubico, Snipetron series and Vectis series Headshot multiplier returned to their intended 2x multiplier in Conclave

Should be reverted so that the headshot multiplier for these guns is 2.5x.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Lemonpartydragon

[taiiat]

i can't argue against having Spike Damage Weapons dealing enough Damage to almost Kill most Warframes with a Headshot. leaving them with very low remaining EHP.
as good as dead, with time flexibility that can make a massive difference in PvP scenarios for the feel of Combat.

just as i can't argue against Spike Damage Weapons Killing most Warframes with a Headshot, due to being a Spike Damage Weapon.

 

both sides of the coin are valid, and one side doesn't appear more valid than the other.
though, with the not too inoften emphasis of not relying on just one of your Weapons but all three of them to make a complete fighting package in PvP, perhaps the first option is the one that's better for Warframe in particular.

[Pythadragon]

No.

2.5x headshot multiplier was negating the EHP advantage of tank frames, which are balanced to survive 2 bodyshots (or 1 headshot) against all snipers.

This was also allowing a 'low damage' sniper like snipetron vandal to 1 headshot kill tank frames. It was screwing up the balance between high damage and low damage snipers by giving all of them 1 hs kill capability against all frames.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Pythadragon

[Lemonpartydragon]

10 hours ago, Pythadragon said:

No.

2.5x headshot multiplier was negating the EHP advantage of tank frames, which are balanced to survive 2 bodyshots (or 1 headshot) against all snipers.

This was also allowing a 'low damage' sniper like snipetron vandal to 1 headshot kill tank frames. It was screwing up the balance between high damage and low damage snipers by giving all of them 1 hs kill capability against all frames.

Honestly? Even if it negated the advantage of "tank" frames, I don't see that as a huge issue. Maybe a 2.25x multiplier would be better. But, in terms of performance, >2.0x was really nice to have simply because snipers suffer so many other simultaneous drawbacks - bad reload speed, terrible fire rate and mag size, the necessity of scoping in, scope sway...

The list goes on. Having powerful weapons is not a bad thing, and the recent shift toward tank frames being able to survive previously one-shotting weapons is not good in my opinion. Ultimately, that is where we contend - what way Conclave should be.

[Loxyen]

21 hours ago, Pythadragon said:

No.

2.5x headshot multiplier was negating the EHP advantage of tank frames, which are balanced to survive 2 bodyshots (or 1 headshot) against all snipers.

This was also allowing a 'low damage' sniper like snipetron vandal to 1 headshot kill tank frames. It was screwing up the balance between high damage and low damage snipers by giving all of them 1 hs kill capability against all frames.

Its always that 2 sides of the coin thing...

You guys often told me to not run super light loadouts vs automatic weapons. Rather more tanky ones to counter auto weapons. Okay but what will counter tanky loadouts? Weren't light loadouts supposed to screw with the hard hitting single shot weapons due to more mobility which makes you harder to shoot/gives you the possibility to dodge shots successful? (<-thats why I use them) Thus those hard hitting weapons are (should be) the counter for tanky loadouts. A hs multiplier >2 is needed if DE does not buff the regular dmg. <- speaking of a lie in wait change

[rockscl]

if you arent considering powers in that then its gun purism and theres a game mode for that

[Witchydragon]

A 2.5 headshot multiplier on the vanilla Snipetron (not vandal) and possibly Rubico makes sense because of their tiny magazines and obscenely slow reload times (Snipetron in particular). It also makes sense on the Lanka as it is a projectile weapon. However,  2.5 headshot multiplier on Snipetron Vandal and Vectis will definitely mitigate tank defenses heavily and negates most reasons to use other sniper rifles.

[Lemonpartydragon]

On 11/9/2016 at 8:46 PM, Witchydragon said:

A 2.5 headshot multiplier on the vanilla Snipetron (not vandal) and possibly Rubico makes sense because of their tiny magazines and obscenely slow reload times (Snipetron in particular). It also makes sense on the Lanka as it is a projectile weapon. However,  2.5 headshot multiplier on Snipetron Vandal and Vectis will definitely mitigate tank defenses heavily and negates most reasons to use other sniper rifles.

It might be overkill on the Vectis considering the high damage/shot that already exists, and I can definitely see your point about the Snipetron Vandal. Nevertheless, if snipers are low-HTK weapons that act as a counterpoint to tank frames (which seems to be their ostensible purpose, now), even the Snipetron Vandal could use a small buff. What about something like 2.5x for Snipetrona and Lanka, and 2.15-2.25x for Snipetron Vandal, Rubico, Vectis?

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, Lemonpartydragon said:

It might be overkill on the Vectis considering the high damage/shot that already exists, and I can definitely see your point about the Snipetron Vandal. Nevertheless, if snipers are low-HTK weapons that act as a counterpoint to tank frames (which seems to be their ostensible purpose, now), even the Snipetron Vandal could use a small buff. What about something like 2.5x for Snipetrona and Lanka, and 2.15-2.25x for Snipetron Vandal, Rubico, Vectis?

I'd say snipers are better against mobile targets, you "only" have to pull the trigger in the right instant. Whereas with high RoF weapons you have to stay on target, which is harder the faster your enemy is.

Snipers already have the highest headshot multiplier out of all weapon classes. Actually they share it only* with bows, but those are harder to hit. I don't think they need that buff.

 

*) plus a few exceptions like Opticor, Lex and Lex Prime.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Kontrollo

[Witchydragon]

4 hours ago, Lemonpartydragon said:

What about something like 2.5x for Snipetrona and Lanka, and 2.15-2.25x for Snipetron Vandal, Rubico, Vectis?

The actual multiplier doesn't mean anything unless they affect the kill thresholds, arbitrary numbers like that would probably still let all snipers instagib headshot all tank frames, although of course someone would have to verify the numbers. Snipetron Vandal, Rubico, and Vectis do not need a higher headshot multiplier/instagib more tank frames, but Snipetron and Lanka could use the buff.

[Lemonpartydragon]

1 hour ago, Witchydragon said:

The actual multiplier doesn't mean anything unless they affect the kill thresholds, arbitrary numbers like that would probably still let all snipers instagib headshot all tank frames, although of course someone would have to verify the numbers. Snipetron Vandal, Rubico, and Vectis do not need a higher headshot multiplier/instagib more tank frames, but Snipetron and Lanka could use the buff.

Well, yes, that is the basic sentiment. I am just spitballing numbers.

Are you sure about Rubico, though? It's generally rather awful unless one finishes a kill with it.

[Witchydragon]

19 hours ago, Lemonpartydragon said:

 

Are you sure about Rubico, though? It's generally rather awful unless one finishes a kill with it.

Rubico is a weird edge case, where it's not horribly awkward to use like the Snipetron and Lanka, but it's not as fast as the Vectis/SVandal. It's impact damage is supposed to set it as a heavy combo weapon that demolishes shields and leaves little hp to make using finisher weapons easier, but it doesn't really seem to fit that bill. Perhaps it could use the buff as well since it would be the only obtainable hitscan sniper rifle to have a higher headshot multiplier.

[Lemonpartydragon]

On 11/18/2016 at 6:30 PM, Witchydragon said:

Rubico is a weird edge case, where it's not horribly awkward to use like the Snipetron and Lanka, but it's not as fast as the Vectis/SVandal. It's impact damage is supposed to set it as a heavy combo weapon that demolishes shields and leaves little hp to make using finisher weapons easier, but it doesn't really seem to fit that bill. Perhaps it could use the buff as well since it would be the only obtainable hitscan sniper rifle to have a higher headshot multiplier.

I think the problem I have with the whole combo-weapon idea sounds good on paper and works reasonably well for most guns. The problem is that snipers as a weapon class are already cumbersome in a variety of ways, between the forced scoping, gratuitous sway, and the way their hipfire accuracy is bad enough that we might as well be firing from the stocks of the rifles. Sniper TTK is already ludicrously high for the (qualitative) trouble, especially compared to hitscan autos, and giving them a little bit more leeway with headshot multipliers would help them better fulfill their niche role as precise power weapons. This buff, at least for the Rubico, would make its "combo" ability a bit more decisive on headshots at least.

I didn't really think about the point on Rubico being the only obtainable sniper with a higher multiplier should it be buffed, but I think that is a fair point.

[Lemonpartydragon]

It occurred to me while playing how silly low sniper HS multipliers are. I shot a Mesa in the head - lightweight 1.2 frame, should die easily even with the extra eHP - and they simply mowed me down with an auto.

There is surely a point of balance where sniper headshots can reliably one-shot all lightweight frames and not diadvantage the tank meta.