DE we NEED to have a serious talk about Riven mods

[Virsalus]

The idea of this system is nice at heart, it offers the opportunity to diversify things. But the reality looks different I'm afraid. Most of these new mods will be outright useless and just a few will be so overpowered that the balance this game had before will be gone. Prior to this there were some rarer mods but they were not as rare as the best riven mods that can be rolled now. There was a fair chance for everyone to acquire at least most of the mods (barring crazy stuff like Primed Chamber, btw. how about making that more available?).

Once you did your work and got your hands on those mods, you could make the viable builds that had been known from the end game pre TWW. Now however there will be a select "elite" (chosen by RNG and financial wealth / willingness to pay for the OP riven mods) that will be able to completely blow all those established builds out of the water and everyone else can only watch in awe because they just won't have that luck and no amount of work they put into the game will enable them to make use of the new high end builds themselves.

This system creates an inequality among the players that has never been there before in this game and if this is not addressed soon, it may very well be the beginning of the end.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Virsalus

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

12 minutes ago, Virsalus said:

The idea of this system is nice at heart, it offers the opportunity to diversify things. But the reality looks different I'm afraid. Most of these new mods will be outright useless and just a few will be so overpowered that the balance this game had before will be gone. Prior to this there were some rarer mods but they were not as rare as the best riven mods that can be rolled now. There was a fair chance for everyone to acquire at least most of the mods (barring crazy stuff like Primed Chamber, btw. how about making that more available?).

Once you did your work and got your hands on those mods, you could make the viable builds that had been known from the end game pre TWW. Now however there will be a select "elite" (chosen by RNG and financial wealth / willingness to pay for the OP riven mods) that will be able to completely blow all those established builds out of the water and everyone else can only watch in awe because they just won't have that luck and no amount of work they put into the game will enable them to make use of the new high end builds themselves.

This system creates an inequality among the players that has never been there before in this game and if this is not addressed soon, it may very well be the beginning of the end.

Very well worded my friend!

Also

Quote

Primed Chamber, how about making that more available?

This system creates an inequality among the players that has never been there before in this game and if this is not addressed soon, it may very well be the beginning of the end.

I really wish DE actually read feedback and strove to correct themselves

[ZephyrPrime]

I'm also personally against the 15 mod limit. It's almost as if they're begging players to get banned for trying to store these. I'm never going to be able to trade this mod for anything useful, and I'm never going to be able to use it, lest I want to waste forma and a catalyst to make it fit. It'd be a waste to get rid of it, because it's a Riven. Why can we even get Rivens as useless as these? Sentinel weapons? This system is very tantamount to Borderland's weapon drop system, and we all know how that went. The only difference is the time ceiling to get Rivens is a LOT higher, and can be even less worth it in the end.

This system is scary for what might happen to the game in the long run, and with DE Rebecca replying with "Good one :D" to a Reddit post about the possibility of reworking these mods, it only gets scarier. 

[marelooke]

To pick in on what Virsalus already wrote:

It's like they just introduced Diablo 3's market and Diablo 3 ditched it's market for a very good reason and that saved the game, it's pretty mindblowing that DE just did the inverse.

If the above doesn't make sense: Diablo 3 has gear on which most stats are randomly generated within certain boundaries (sound familiar?) because at some point most people hit a roadblock in progression that could only be solved by grinding for the same gear just with better stats people took two different actions: a whole bunch just straight up quit the game, the rest just bought their way to the best gear through the auction house. To save the game Blizzard had to do away with the auction house (among other things to make the game less grindy). Given that Warframe didn't (until now, that is) have the kind of randomness that cause Blizzard all that pain it's sad to see it being introduced.

Perhaps DEs income has been hurt by the Void change and they want to make up that loss by encouraging people to engage in trading for mods.

Maybe that sounds cynical but it's really hard to imagine that someone genuinely thought this was a good idea, gameplay wise.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

6 minutes ago, marelooke said:

It's like they just introduced Diablo 3's market and Diablo 3 ditched it's market for a very good reason and that saved the game, it's pretty mindblowing that DE just did the inverse.

Perhaps DEs income has been hurt by the Void change and they want to make up that loss by encouraging people to engage in trading for mods.

It all makes sense now... 

 

Yeah Im convinced this was intentional. They had a year of (DE)lays and they arent new to their own games power creep, RNG, or trade economy. 

 

DE mustve decided to toss in the towel and sell out

Edited November 14, 2016 by (PS4)True_Reclaimer

[Boubonicus]

I don't like the idea of these riven mods as well, if I wanted Diablo or borderlands style loot randomness I would be playing those games.  Except instead of being able to simply redo a run for more chances in a day, we have one shot a day at them.  I agree that they had good intentions behind the implementation of these.  Probably is intended to give high rank/long time players something to strive for but it's having the opposite effect, at least on me. 

Honestly when I first saw the new mods I thought it was to mod the operator somehow.  As it stands now though I would vastly prefer they are changed to a modable mod.  First unveiling binds it to the weapon it was unveiled on.  Then through expensive means involving forma, kuva, maxed mod of whatever you want to add, and maybe more you can add up to three effects with the last being initially a negative.  Then through daily resource feeding and completing the challenge things it gives, you can slowly upgrade the stats on it to some maximum.  They can stay rare and limited to 15. 

I hold no illusion this would simply devolve to them mostly looking like +dmg, +crit, +multishot and drastically enhance power creep.  I would, at least, prefer the objective of slowly growing its power over time to pulling a slot machine lever. 

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

5 minutes ago, Boubonicus said:

I don't like the idea of these riven mods as well, if I wanted Diablo or borderlands style loot randomness I would be playing those games.  Except instead of being able to simply redo a run for more chances in a day, we have one shot a day at them.  I agree that they had good intentions behind the implementation of these.  Probably is intended to give high rank/long time players something to strive for but it's having the opposite effect, at least on me. 

Honestly when I first saw the new mods I thought it was to mod the operator somehow.  As it stands now though I would vastly prefer they are changed to a modable mod.  First unveiling binds it to the weapon it was unveiled on.  Then through expensive means involving forma, kuva, maxed mod of whatever you want to add, and maybe more you can add up to three effects with the last being initially a negative.  Then through daily resource feeding and completing the challenge things it gives, you can slowly upgrade the stats on it to some maximum.  They can stay rare and limited to 15. 

I hold no illusion this would simply devolve to them mostly looking like +dmg, +crit, +multishot and drastically enhance power creep.  I would, at least, prefer the objective of slowly growing its power over time to pulling a slot machine lever. 

It would be far better if we EARNED our OP mods, rather than casino gambling or black market trading for them

[xxfiurionxx]

Love the riven mods overall design with the touch of having a challenge to identify them adding an extra variation to the game along with a great loot rpg element were it just makes me want to do all the daily sorties i have acess to lol

Dont agree with all of stuff like the first one since i personally like a good loot system but many of the points do hit true.

"Stronguer" weapons should not indeed have acess to it since they are strong enough as they are and with the game dificulty not exactly increasing or at max for those cases only add "secondary" stuff on those mods.

Agree again that maybe we shouldnt have a limit on them or overtime sadly we will just have to get rid of them while they could just make them untradable, limit it to like 1 of those per gun if we get many for the same gun and be like "the epic mod" while avoiding at the same time the valid point of multiple acounts and those trade exploits it seems :\

Other then that, a good post with good points wp(osted) xD

 

 

[Gilmaesh]

make them account bound and remove the 15 limit. Those mods are a great endo/credits sink.

Also the increased reroll cost was a good opportunity to create a sink for our existing resources, most of them become useless after a while and that was one way to use them. Instead they went nitain all over again, they created another resource and i have to use the operator to get it...

I'm not against that type of random stat type items, in a PVE game it's a common path and coming from diablo 2/3 i expected some (only kubrow were kind of random), but the way they were introduced is questionable. oh, and screw balance apparently.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

35 minutes ago, Gilmaesh said:

make them account bound and remove the 15 limit. Those mods are a great endo/credits sink.

Also the increased reroll cost was a good opportunity to create a sink for our existing resources, most of them become useless after a while and that was one way to use them. Instead they went nitain all over again, they created another resource and i have to use the operator to get it...

Great ideas right here. And strangely... I think they would be simple enough to work

[Phasedragon]

4 hours ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Is this confirmed?? I didnt know they were conclave allowed

 

3 hours ago, PraetorGix said:

I didn't test it by myself but read it in several places. If it's made up then these mods aren't such a monster. Just another grindylicious thing locked behind time walls.

 

No, they're definitely not allowed in conclave. That would be silly. 

[Glitch_Kitten]

honestly riven mods were the worst addition to this game anyone could've conceived

Edited November 14, 2016 by Glitch_Kitten

[Bluejay235]

Riven mods are terrible. Not only is there a insane amount of RNG in the crappy tasks you have to perform (some are trivial, others are sadistic) the mods that result from these completely terrible tasks range from overpowered to utterly useless, and the quality seems to have nothing to do with the difficulty required to unlock them. As if to add insult to injury they all seem to require you to equip those horrible keys that make you utter poison as far as group members are concerned when running missions to try to unveil them.

This is worse than gambling. This is gambling were you have to endure torture just to get a chance to take a roll.

I want to look the dev that came up with this trash concept in the face and ask him just what the heck he/she was thinking.

[Xriborg]

5 hours ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Hello darkness my old friend

Ive come to talk with you again

Because of POWER softly creeping

Softly creeping my &#!! That's a goddamn out-of-control train!

This is a disaster. Plat or not, this HAS to be changed or this game actually will be ruined... This invalidates all other mods. Can you have more than one of these in a single weapon?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

2 minutes ago, Xriah said:

Can you have more than one of these in a single weapon?

You cannot. One riven mod per gun.

 

7 minutes ago, Xriah said:

This is a disaster. Plat or not, this HAS to be changed or this game actually will be ruined... This invalidates all other mods.

Let's be real here. A tonkor isn't going to notice more crit/damage/etc unless you're well above the level 140 foes you see in third stage sorties. All this "OP" affects in real terms are those few people who want to do hours of survival where enemies get to level 300+. And that with mods like that being incredibly difficult to acquire, so there's an incredibly tiny number of players who will actually ever see one of these. Indeed, it's very likely that if you saw someone using it you wouldn't even know because tonkor already kills everything outside of sorties instantly anyway.

All you guys complaining about how warframe is ruined now are being overly histrionic. Whales can now buy ultimate power, but whales keep f2p games afloat and riven mods are only available from other players, which means by definition all that ultimate power is available to free players.

Also, a lot of people seem to be open to trying out new builds with old guns that weren't part of the meta before ala paracyst, dera, braton, etc because of riven mods. Council chat has a lot more discussion on how to use non-meta weapons now than it did last week, almost solely because of riven mods making it so that taking weak weapons into sorties and killing effectively is actually a possibility.

[kruwreka]

5 hours ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

#6 Why can people trade reveiled crap mods, or even unveiled mods that have been rerolled so many times that its impossible for the new owner to do so now? There is no warning or indication of how many rerolls the mod had - such a counter similar to formaed weapons.

Yep this is a thing. just had someone tell me his buddies are buying up crap mods specifically to re-veil them and sell them as virgin

[CarrotSalad]

It's pretty dangerous to have these circulating without drawbacks imho.

When power items like this hit games like Dragon Nest, Rappelz and Cabal online. The only way to get them outside of endless grinding was with real money. And im not talking about platinum purchases, i mean US$ meetups at cyber cafes and libraries with cash changing hands.

Not only that but these items inevitable will have a negative effect on segmenting the playerbase.

I think the mods are fine for weaker non meta weapons but releasing these mods for other weapons. Please no. Up to 2 weeks ago we had people with simulors/Tonkors/Somas crying for more "challenge" and DE's response is riven mods that boost those weapons even more. :/

If they are to stay. At the very least please stand your ground and stop making and balancing new things around these top tier items. Otherwise i fear what it will do to this community

[Cpl_Facehugger]

29 minutes ago, kruwreka said:

Yep this is a thing. just had someone tell me his buddies are buying up crap mods specifically to re-veil them and sell them as virgin

This is a wholly legit criticism. There needs to be a UI counter that says how many times a mod has been rerolled to prevent scams like this.

16 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

It's pretty dangerous to have these circulating without drawbacks imho.

When power items like this hit games like Dragon Nest, Rappelz and Cabal online. The only way to get them outside of endless grinding was with real money. And im not talking about platinum purchases, i mean US$ meetups at cyber cafes and libraries with cash changing hands.

Not only that but these items inevitable will have a negative effect on segmenting the playerbase.

I think the mods are fine for weaker non meta weapons but releasing these mods for other weapons. Please no. Up to 2 weeks ago we had people with simulors/Tonkors/Somas crying for more "challenge" and DE's response is riven mods that boost those weapons even more. :/

If they are to stay. At the very least please stand your ground and stop making and balancing new things around these top tier items. Otherwise i fear what it will do to this community

These things do have drawbacks. Namely, extreme rarity due to multi-nested RNG, and oftentimes statistical drawbacks on top of that. Everyone sees the holy grail of +damage +multishot +crit chance +crit damage tonkor without realizing how getting such a thing is like winning the lottery. I'd be surprised if there's a thousand such godly mods floating around at any one time because of how many things have to go right to get something like that, and that's assuming DE hasn't weighted the RNG against them like they weigh everything else.

The vast majority of riven mods have at least one disadvantage beyond their rarity and high cost. Earlier one of my clanmates got a tonkor with crit damage and crit chance. Sounds amazing OP right? But he couldn't use it because its disadvantage was -ammo capacity, meaning the gun handled extremely poorly even with ammo mutation. His exact words were "I'm spending more time scrounging for ammo than I am killing."

[CarrotSalad]

35 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

hese things do have drawbacks. Namely, extreme rarity due to multi-nested RNG,

Extreme rarity is just a requirement of investing enough time. I dont know if theres other ways of obtaining them outside of sorties, but another concern is the grind and drain of failure has in these types of scenarios.

My own experience In Dragon nest for instance between the level 50-60 level cap there was a weekly limit of 1 Hardcore nest where L grade items dropped per week and if your class L grade weapon didnt drop you were as good as screwed from top level content. I even trained up alts to farm the dungeon in the hope i could atleast try my luck more than once a week to join my friends in that stuff. It was still broken because I had the skills(top 100 in arena rankings), i had the knowledge it of the mechanics was just a dumb gear check of a L grade weapon that never dropped that kept me out. By mid level 60 i had quit DN because i had no luck with RNG.

The fact that Shanda in the next caps added new ways to get those L grade weapons shows that they atleast acknowledged there was a huge problem with such a system.

[Aratir]

So game economy and weapon modding has been killed, can't wait till they introduce these mods to warframes. [+50% sprint +250% armor +550% health] will be so good.

[VexisPhil]

and the overpriced mods we have now , i think trading is broken now chat is filled with 2k or 1k Offers for Soma  and Tonkor riven mods

[Xerenova]

I hope DE addresses the issue on the coming devstream.

[notlamprey]

18 minutes ago, -Unscripted- said:

I hope DE addresses the issue on the coming devstream.

They're going to be forced to, or else risk Warframe having its reputation poisoned.

I know we have some folks here who like the system, but I don't believe that it's right for the game, or for the game's general audience.

[VexisPhil]

2 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

They're going to be forced to, or else risk Warframe having its reputation poisoned.

I know we have some folks here who like the system, but I don't believe that it's right for the game, or for the game's general audience.

imo not their reputation but they risk spoiling the game for lower ranked / New players as gear requirements get higher and higher saying all higher level players have riven mods of OP stats , the lower ranked player base would struggle

[VexisPhil]

for me at MR11 is fairly a struggle