Regarding "Balancing" Riven Mods [Spoilers?]

[Wolfie758]

   In the update notes I believe Rebecca mentioned that they would balance Riven mods' benefits to be more in favor of weapons that could use them more and prevent powercreep for already powerful weapons.

   Im not here to bash or compliment the new system but I would like to ask if anyone share my thoughts. Wouldn't having to keep these powerful meta weapons in check  be a constant and rather undesired side effect of this system? For example, DE might just be shooting itself in the foot a little if they must add an exception or balance change to every NEW weapon that might be powerful in the game. I suppose I just dont particularly know how they plan to do it without creating an additional task for themselves each hotfix if people complain that Riven mods buff a new powerful weapon too much.

What do you guys think? Do you think it will be a constant task or that it will be easy to address?

[pauli133]

Expect an automated, rather than manually applied, handicap. The more popular a weapon is, the less effective riven mods will be. The less popular a weapon is, the more powerful the riven mods will be. New weapons will probably drift into place after a week or two.

They'll have to create and tune the initial conditions, sure, but they'll almost certainly deploy a system that's hands off.

Edited November 15, 2016 by pauli133

[Gameslinx]

I think the riven mod stats should stay the same across all weapons - like we have now, RNG, BUT:

Let's take the soma as an example. It relies on critical chance. A lot of people also use it. Factor these two in together:

So, what should happen is that the riven mod is LESS LIKELY to reward critical chance. You can still get that sweet roll, but it isn't as common and still tempts players towards lesser used weapons.

 

[kaliazane]

This is ridiculous way of making weaker weapons be used more, just buff them if you want that DE.

[residente]

13 minutes ago, Wolfie758 said:

   In the update notes I believe Rebecca mentioned that they would balance Riven mods' benefits to be more in favor of weapons that could use them more and prevent powercreep for already powerful weapons.

Because directly buffing weak and unpopular weapon stats was too hard, right?

 

[Wolfie758]

4 minutes ago, Gameslinx said:

I think the riven mod stats should stay the same across all weapons - like we have now, RNG, BUT:

Let's take the soma as an example. It relies on critical chance. A lot of people also use it. Factor these two in together:

So, what should happen is that the riven mod is LESS LIKELY to reward critical chance. You can still get that sweet roll, but it isn't as common and still tempts players towards lesser used weapons.

 

I suppose that would balance some things out but even some of the less reliable weapons have awesome stats in some sense. I believe @pauli133 hit the nail on the head pretty directly. The only exception to it is that it might destroy or create a new meta of having a specific mod while the weapon is unpopular.

[Newnight]

1 minute ago, residente said:

Because directly buffing weak and unpopular weapon stats was too hard, right?

 

Any idea why they would be aganist buffin?

[Wolfie758]

4 minutes ago, residente said:

Because directly buffing weak and unpopular weapon stats was too hard, right?

 

I do think personally that this system will need an exceptional amount of fine tuning before its worth something. The RNG within it is what -in my opinion- destroys it. Just look at syndicate weapon mods that actually help some rather sub-par weapons. If we had some other method of getting something like those I think it might make otherwise unused weapons more popular. (Maybe even just add more mods to syndicates if you wanted to be shallow about it.)

Edited November 15, 2016 by Wolfie758

[residente]

Just now, Newnight said:

Any idea why they would be aganist buffin?

Because they don't care about those weapons. Riven Mod system's purpose wasn't that. Its purpose was to add a new way for veterans to spend thousands of hours and platinum in the game behind seven layers of grind.

1 minute ago, Wolfie758 said:

I do think personally that this system will need an exceptional amount of fine tuning before its worth something. The RNG within it is what -in my opinion- destroys it. Just look at syndicate weapon mods that actually help some rather sub-par weapons. If we had some other method of getting something like those I think it might make otherwise unused weapons more popular. (Maybe even just add more mods to syndicates if you wanted to be shallow about it.)

More syndicate mods were one of the more popular solutions given by players to make worthless weapons better. Or syndicate weapons overall. But well we have Vaykor Hek and the Hek multishot mod, Vaykor Marelok, Sancti Tigris, Telos Boltor, completely unecessary weapons whose standard variants were already good. 

 

[Nazzami]

4 minutes ago, Newnight said:

Any idea why they would be aganist buffin?

Too much work?

Ironic as now the riven mods are now gonna cause them even more work and problems to deal with before they reach the point where they could be balanced.

[FAZZWARFRAME]

Just now, Newnight said:

Any idea why they would be aganist buffin?

I guess because they want to keep weak weapons weak for new players and only to turn them strong for old players?

 

I doubt the weapon classification will be taken literally to usages, it is probably just a way for DE to explain how strong a weapon is.  For example, given the amount of new players MK1-braton should be one of the high usage weapons, which puts it in the category of low buffing for the riven mods.

 

The more likely approach I think they will implement is:

- manually classify a weapon as weak, normal, strong (they can do this once for all the existing weapons)

- write a riven rolling formula so weak gets a random buff capping at +100%, normal capping at 75%, strong at 50% (or something similiar)

- In the future, whenever they launch a new weapon, just assign that weapon a weak, normal, strong flag

[Wolfie758]

I remember back quite a while in Devstreams DE said that they dont intend to have weak weapons be anything more than that, and that there was a MR req. for a reason. I know the game changes, but it seems like this system is very inopportune especially when they were tossing out the idea of a damage 3.0 that would rid us of traditional multishot and damage mods. If this system were to have been put in after that revolutionary change were made, we might be in calmer waters.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Wolfie758

[Beggining]

41 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

This is a ridiculous way of making weaker weapons being used more, just buff them if you want that, DE.

^

With the Riven system, most of who will be using these underused weapons are veterans, bored of the META and wanting to try something new (or to stick to a weapon they love *hugs Zhuge*) The majority of new players would still stick to the META to power through missions, therefore strengthening the love for META and discarding other weapons.

The weapons are underused for a reason, DE - Riven feels more like a bandaid to their problem, especially wih the RNG involved.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Beggining
Woot da woop

[Vali]

42 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

This is ridiculous way of making weaker weapons be used more, just buff them if you want that DE.

I believe Riven mods exist for vets to go back to older weapons and have them be usable, but keep weapon progression for newer players. 

[Beggining]

2 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

I believe Riven mods exist for vets to go back to older weapons and have them be usable, but keep weapon progression for newer players. 

Ehh, fair enough. Some weapons are intended to be weak - they just need a comprehensive MR locks for that >.>

Edited November 16, 2016 by Beggining
Woot da woop

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

46 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

This is ridiculous way of making weaker weapons be used more, just buff them if you want that DE.

then newer get OP weapons for their level from the get go, and it'll only create a new low-tier baseline

[GoneBlank]

I was lucky and received a good Tonkor Riven mod. I was thinking of adding a forma to fit it on my Tonkor. (I'm kind of glad I haven't yet).

Assume I went to the effort of adding a forma and re-leveling....then the mod gets nerfed and it is no longer the best thing for that slot....so I now have to unforma (or re-forma) that slot. Seriously?

Or perhaps even worse...I have an unpopular weapon that I forma up because of a good Riven mod....the weapon then becomes "popular" so the mod is nerfed and no longer becomes the best use of the slot. That would be arguably more annoying.

Making the mod the 'random variable' seems like a path that will annoy (putting it mildly) a lot of people.

[Wolfie758]

1 hour ago, GoneBlank said:

I was lucky and received a good Tonkor Riven mod. I was thinking of adding a forma to fit it on my Tonkor. (I'm kind of glad I haven't yet).

Assume I went to the effort of adding a forma and re-leveling....then the mod gets nerfed and it is no longer the best thing for that slot....so I now have to unforma (or re-forma) that slot. Seriously?

Or perhaps even worse...I have an unpopular weapon that I forma up because of a good Riven mod....the weapon then becomes "popular" so the mod is nerfed and no longer becomes the best use of the slot. That would be arguably more annoying.

Making the mod the 'random variable' seems like a path that will annoy (putting it mildly) a lot of people.

Completely agree. This Riven mod system seems like a side step for the modding process rather than forward or back. Its jsut there, with no point but a mild annoyance for those who want to better their sub-par weapons

[--Trollin--]

6 hours ago, residente said:

Because they don't care about those weapons. Riven Mod system's purpose wasn't that. Its purpose was to add a new way for veterans to spend thousands of hours and platinum in the game behind seven layers of grind.

 

True, it was a quick money-grabbing technique on their part to get lot of players to spend money on buying plats to buy those powerful mods, and then nerf those mods to the ground.  They don't care at all once the real money in in their bank account.

[Heckzu]

1 hour ago, Shashu13 said:

True, it was a quick money-grabbing technique on their part to get lot of players to spend money on buying plats to buy those powerful mods, and then nerf those mods to the ground.  They don't care at all once the real money in in their bank account.

That is a fallacious argument. Neither Riven mods nor their associated resource, Kuva, are actually sold by DE, whether through the in game market or with real currency through an online purchase. The plat "spent" was bartered and only ended up in another player's hands, which does not benefit DE because the plat most likely already existed and generates no revenue, and because there is no reduction of plat in the system to induce deflation.

[Lunamaniac]

1 hour ago, Heckzu said:

That is a fallacious argument. Neither Riven mods nor their associated resource, Kuva, are actually sold by DE, whether through the in game market or with real currency through an online purchase. The plat "spent" was bartered and only ended up in another player's hands, which does not benefit DE because the plat most likely already existed and generates no revenue, and because there is no reduction of plat in the system to induce deflation.

There's nothing innately fallacious in Shashu's argument although I don't necessarily agree with them either.

On the other hand your argument makes the assumption that players will use plat that already exists, which while not fallacious there is no stated reason either.

[WereFowl]

3 hours ago, Heckzu said:

That is a fallacious argument. Neither Riven mods nor their associated resource, Kuva, are actually sold by DE, whether through the in game market or with real currency through an online purchase. The plat "spent" was bartered and only ended up in another player's hands, which does not benefit DE because the plat most likely already existed and generates no revenue, and because there is no reduction of plat in the system to induce deflation.

DE have a history of releasing OP weapons then nerfing them a week or so later, after the initial rush of people buying it with plat dies down. Just look at the caustacyst.

 

Not to mention: How exactly did people get that plat in the first place? Oh yeah! By BUYING it.

[Arniox]

12 hours ago, Wolfie758 said:

   In the update notes I believe Rebecca mentioned that they would balance Riven mods' benefits to be more in favor of weapons that could use them more and prevent powercreep for already powerful weapons.

   Im not here to bash or compliment the new system but I would like to ask if anyone share my thoughts. Wouldn't having to keep these powerful meta weapons in check  be a constant and rather undesired side effect of this system? For example, DE might just be shooting itself in the foot a little if they must add an exception or balance change to every NEW weapon that might be powerful in the game. I suppose I just dont particularly know how they plan to do it without creating an additional task for themselves each hotfix if people complain that Riven mods buff a new powerful weapon too much.

What do you guys think? Do you think it will be a constant task or that it will be easy to address?

 

I feel like they would code it so that if a weapon has over a certain status chance, or crit chance/ crit damage, or too high ips spread or dmg then the riven mod generated would have lower stats.

[VonDodo]

As i already said.... i wonder who had the brilliant idea to release a mod that is better than Serration+ vital sense+ argon scope+ another and make that available to less than 0,1% of players.

3endgame mods + something else in ONE mod......

WF just went full korean.

 

They should just remove ALL of them as soon as possible.

[Heckzu]

2 hours ago, WereFowl said:

DE have a history of releasing OP weapons then nerfing them a week or so later, after the initial rush of people buying it with plat dies down. Just look at the caustacyst.

 

Not to mention: How exactly did people get that plat in the first place? Oh yeah! By BUYING it.

The caustacyst was bugged on release. The so called nerf for that weapon was nothing more than a bug fix for an unintended interaction (how would a weapon that deals purely corrosive damage with a stance that does not proc slash deal slash damage in the first place?).

How many of those players who buy Riven mods for prices such as 1k plat do you reckon purchased that plat after the Riven mods' release for the sole intention of buying them from other players? Many people have stockpiles of thousands, if not tens of thousands of plat, and it's those people who are more willing to make expensive trades.