Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Achromatic.]

4 hours ago, S0V3REiGN said:

These threads are all for show, I honestly don't take them too seriously. Just look at the Mag rework thread or the Saryn one or Nekros one, dozens upon dozens of pages of people giving feedback (and complaining) yet nothing has come out of those threads. Not one follow up rework or touch up after a rework. I think only mesa has been buffed and hers wasn't even a real rework.

So many people complained about Nekros' Shadow HP decay and we couldn't even get it reduced by 1%, lol. 

[Exth]

I try Ash again. And shake my hand left and right very quickly in order to mark and multimark as many enemies as fast as i can is just  awful.

[Serafim_94]

43 minutes ago, Biter. said:

So many people complained about Nekros' Shadow HP decay and we couldn't even get it reduced by 1%, lol. 

IDK. It's not pretty, but fairly manageable. I haven't touched Nekros from looooong before his rework, but after playing him yesterady - he is definetely more fun and functional than he used to be, even with decay in place.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Forceby4]

Since ash was my first prime frame, i love him like no other, this rework was definitely dissapointing though. The only good thing about his changed 4 is that now allies can kill enemies being bs'd. Other than that it doesnt really solve any of the original problems everyones talking about. My suggestion would be to revert his 4 back to the way it was except for the small qol i mentioned earlier but have it so that the type of enemies you target with your ult (ie. ancients, moas, troopers, etc.) are the enemies that get bs'd. Change the animations or how the camera works during it on top of that and then itd probably be fine. Youve got plenty of interactivity from your teammates firing and you have to decide what enemy types youd target so it wouldnt be considered a full on room nuke. Just my 2 cents.

[Sashmaul]

I am at a loss as to what bladestorm in its current form has changed except to slow the ability down and become less spamable. 

I did not like the ability before and nothing has changed as neither has it. I was really hoping the cinematic sequece was going to be removed and you had a way to control which targets get hit. I know that alot of people have stated that you can now get the control with the marking system. I gonna be honest I am not finding this control, all that happens for me is the ones that have come on my screen get marked i cannot prioritize these. 

I was expecting that while you were attacking one enemy you could actually look to designate your next target or at lease something interactive, because this is the same thing just a boring cinematic with no influence on it. 

Shame because the new skin is amazing and I like to use him just for this but that shine will wear off.

[Yazeth]

As an Ash main, I would like to give my input on his recent rework. 

1) Shuriken

No changes were made, so there are no pros or cons here. I would have appreciated some crowd control capability to it though, but I admit that his augment for Shuriken is very strong and, for me, is not hard to slot in.

2) Smoke Screen

The additional mobility added with the change boosts Ash's survival ability tremendously. Instead of locking you in place and having you risk taking shots from the enemies, you can dodge the shots while casting the skill. It is definitely a great addition for Ash who is a very combative frame.

3) Teleport

The ability to teleport to essentially anything with a health bar adds more mobility to Ash's kit. Not much to comment here.

4) Bladestorm

And finally, the main thing I want to talk about. For me, the rework makes the ability a bit tedious to use, but a lot more fun for me. Though, you still sit through an animation, it is a bit more interactive than before.

Though, there are major differences in how Ash's Bladestorm can be used now.

One of the changes is how players select enemies with the ability. Before, when you cast Bladestorm, you will also target enemies within 50 meters around the selected enemy at base). Now, it is changed to 50 meters around yourself. This means that Ash can no longer attack enemies that might be more than 50 meters away from him. Though, with the new ability, you are also able to pick certain targets to kill first, which is useful when you don't want to target an Ancient Disruptor, who will make your attacks very weak and will force you to stab at it 10+ times.

Another change is how the player attack the enemies with Bladestorm. Before, if an enemy did not die by an attack, you would keep attacking it until it dies or you reached the cap of 18 or so attacks. Now, you don't have to sit through all of the attacks to finish the ability. For example, with a level 100 Gunner, the old Bladestorm would make you stab at the enemy around 5 times before it dies (with my build), thus ending the ability. Now, you can mark the Gunner 3 times and attack it only once while your clones do the last two hits, and as a result  the new Bladestorm can be quicker than the old Bladestorm.

The rework also changes how Bladestorm kills enemies. As mentioned before, the level 100 Gunner would get attacked 3 times with Bladestorm, but it dies in 5 hits, not 3, so the Gunner would still be alive after the clones did their work. In this case, the player could finish it off with abilities or weapons, or wait for the Slash proc to do its work. But, this means that for certain enemies, Arcane Trickery becomes less reliable. Arcane Trickery only procs on a Finisher Kill, so if none of the enemies die from the initial attack then Arcane Trickery won't proc (I am not sure if the clones could trigger the Arcane, but I sorta doubt it).

Finally, the rework changes how Ash manages energy. Before, a single cast cost 100 energy (at base), regardless of the number of enemies. Now, it is 15 energy, or 10 while Smoke Screen is active, per enemy. Without smokescreen, you can mark enemies 6 times before reaching/passing the 100 energy mark. With Smoke Screen, you also mark enemies up to 6 times before reaching/passing the 100 energy mark as well. So, if you are only targeting 6 enemies or less, then the new Bladestorm can be more efficient than the old Bladestorm. But, because the game is set up as a horde shooter, you will generally be marking more than 6 times, therefore resulting in more energy loss in general. Though, a benefit with the new system is that Ash can obtain energy with Zenurik while channeling the ability, compared to other frames with channeling abilities. So, with Zenurik, the energy loss becomes very negligible. 

In the end, I have mixed feelings with the Bladestorm changes. One one hand, it makes Bladestorm more interactive, limits its outrageous killing potential and ends the boring animation quicker, but on another hand kills its synergy with Arcane Trickery, forces players to rely on Zenurik for effectiveness, and the ability still retains the boring animation that DE sought to change/remove in the first place.

As a way to make Bladestorm more effective, I would like to see the enemy cap removed, or at least increased (for some reason I can't target past 18 enemies in the Simulacrum, so there might be a cap), and for the base range of the ability to increase to make it more effective at attacking enemies. I would also like to see Arcane Trickery changed so that it procs on Finishers, regardless if it kills or not. I also would also enjoy seeing the animation removed and have the clones perform the ability themselves, like many others have suggested. With these changes, I think Bladestorm would become an amazing ability.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Yazeth

[Cubewano]

16 hours ago, (PS4)supersocc11 said:

But ash needs to use his arm blades....it's part of his identity...if he just sends clones out he becomes a caster and not an assassin. I don't like the direction the community is going with their recommendation to make clones do all the work...

If you don't like any of the current suggestions then you are always free to offer your own ideas as well, for many players though I don't think they can see a way to make his ult work without some sacrifice of the style Ash used to be. The cinematic sequence can't stay since it such an inactive/boring mechanic, and attacking targets one by one is a no go since he already has a skill for that, not to mention in a horde game like this he has to have some kind of decent aoe/multi-target damage skill. 

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

4 hours ago, Robert_Cop_2 said:

He's not good for damage, he's outclassed for stealth by Ivara and Loki and even by non-stealth frames like Limbo (bye bye lasers) and Nova/Nezha (better teleport and speed) what exactly is new Ash main selling feature? You are right, I'm playing other frames nowadays simply beacuse they are better than him.

You just proved my point in what you said, you need all those frames to do what Ash can do alone.

Ivara - She also cannot teleport.

Nova - Her "teleport" is not target friendly. Good to help team-mates around too though. She also lacks stealth completely.

Nezha - You must be joking, her distance is 8 meters.

Loki - Closest to Ash, great stealth, lasts longer as his purpose is to be in it more rather than use if for quick offence and relocation. Drawback, no stun while he casts. Hence in late levels you can get one shot during the casting so not as offensive. He has teleport, sure, but hardly useful a lot times. Great to pull a team mate or switch with a decoy. Completely different purpose. Cannot close in on targets period, he switches with them. Again, not offensive and cannot be used as much. Also cannot be used to teleport to a friend, only switch with them.

 

All these frames are also squishy by comparison.

 

Those frames might be better at one or two things, but they cannot offer the combo of all those things in one. Ash does. Which primes him for much better use. Now, if he where for example to also have the best stealth in the game, as well as be more survivable, well then what exactly is the point to the other frames? None whatsoever.

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

4 hours ago, CTanGod said:

Ash was designed with one goal in mind and that was to do damage, now he can't do that efficiently anymore, the only way left to play him is Shuriken spam because in any other way he is outclassed. Good job community, let's murder all the frames now because that will make the game better! /s

No, this was not the goal Ash was designed with. He was designed as a melee stealth frame with good melee damage. Extra durability makes him better for this, as he has to be up close and personal. Gets around fast. Has escape/relocate tactics, closes in on his enemy, and extra bleeding damages. Frames that are designed with the goal of dishing out damage are more squishy. Ash was never in that category to begin with, ever, from as far back as the first release. Others outdid him in damage. He is meant to give a balance of stealth offence, melee, and damage. This means he uses all the tools, and an all around warframe, not one that needs to excel at one thing or the other. Making him in the end, in fact, much more useful in this manner.

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

12 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

If you don't like any of the current suggestions then you are always free to offer your own ideas as well, for many players though I don't think they can see a way to make his ult work without some sacrifice of the style Ash used to be. The cinematic sequence can't stay since it such an inactive/boring mechanic, and attacking targets one by one is a no go since he already has a skill for that, not to mention in a horde game like this he has to have some kind of decent aoe/multi-target damage skill. 

"Inactive boring mechanic"

The people that keep supporting this are the people that are indeed spamming just Blade Storm. If you use Ash as melee (his passive supports the idea, melee mods add to his skills and finishers, and melee aura adds to his blade storm and, well, melee... how many more hints does one need?) and use the tools at hand right (smoke screen and teleport... don't be afraid to use them more often people, like, all the time) you would see the pace with him becomes so fast that Blade Storm on the contrary relaxes you enough to keep hacking and slashing again right after it.

[Nagisawa]

So just tried the new Bladestorm solo, and frankly, it's fun in a casual way.  But it takes too long to be viable in a group situation.  Rhino's Stomp is still better (and that's sayin' something.)  The rest of his kit is still as useless as before (which is to say there are SOME useful tricks, but really...  Loki does it all better anyway.  And I hate Loki.)

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

3 hours ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Even though I haven't played the rework yet, I did my research on how PC players feel about it and my conclusion is that it doesn't fix anything but instead add more problems to the list for bladestorm. Which is SUPER disappointing since I was really excited for an ash change. I mean your telling me DE did a year worth of work and ideas to change bladestorm only for them to come up with this crap. seriously this rework is something you expect a mastery rank 2 player who never played ash before to think of this rework. You can even tell that they put more effort in the koga skin then they did the actual rework. I guess they expected the community to be blinded by the shiny light reflecting off the sexy koga skin too see that they turned ash into a failure of a damage frame. I still love ash tho...

For someone that hasn't played the rework yet you sure do sound like a lot of hate is coming from you. "this crap"? wow... just wow.

[Exth]

6 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

No, this was not the goal Ash was designed with. He was designed as a melee stealth frame with good melee damage. Extra durability makes him better for this, as he has to be up close and personal. Gets around fast. Has escape/relocate tactics, closes in on his enemy, and extra bleeding damages. Frames that are designed with the goal of dishing out damage are more squishy. Ash was never in that category to begin with, ever, from as far back as the first release. Others outdid him in damage. He is meant to give a balance of stealth offence, melee, and damage. This means he uses all the tools, and an all around warframe, not one that needs to excel at one thing or the other. Making him in the end, in fact, much more useful in this manner.

If he wasnt designed to do damage then why bladestorm was like that before? And who made you the Ash expert btw??? And please stop talking like you have all the answers  and knowledge. Tks :D

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

Just now, Nagisawa said:

So just tried the new Bladestorm solo, and frankly, it's fun in a casual way.  But it takes too long to be viable in a group situation.  Rhino's Stomp is still better (and that's sayin' something.)  The rest of his kit is still as useless as before (which is to say there are SOME useful tricks, but really...  Loki does it all better anyway.  And I hate Loki.)

Loki cannot stun enemies during his stealth.

Loki cannot close into enemies.

Loki's ulti is also completely useless for half the game (infested?)

Loki is squishy too.

Ash's skills are useless? I'm this close to finding you online to see your profile and how much you played with him to even consider such a comment.

Loki is nowhere near as aggressive as Ash is. There is no comparison between the two. They are completely different play styles.

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

2 minutes ago, Exth said:

If he wasnt designed to do damage then why bladestorm was like that before? And who made you the Ash expert btw??? And please stop talking like you have all the answers  and knowledge. Tks :D

Like what? lol. It didnt do much damage before either. Have any of you ever played anything beyond lvl 40? What damage? Other frames have stronger CC and always did o.O

It doesn't take an expert to understand the simple logic behind squishy damage dealing frames and durable less damage dealing frames. This concept is used not just in Warframe, but every game ever. That aside, been playing with Ash since the game launched. He is my main, without meaning I do not love and play plenty other frames as well. So I'd say I know enough.

"Stop talking like I have all the answers and knowledge"? Did I imply as such? And even if I did, you are seriously telling someone that is expressing an opinion to pretty much stop expressing it?

Its not my fault I have answers that could be considered as insight to things people are saying. Just as everyone else has the right to state opinion, I will state mine on theirs. I have stayed silent on this matter enough, and didn't get the chance to say my part before said rework. Now I will say as much as I need to give DE the required feeback and if possible enlighten Ash players with how the frame is meant to be played as well.

I see people in here for example claiming Smoke Screen and Teleport are useless and always where........ So the only reason they played Ash was Blade Storm? Then they don't know how to play Ash, plain and simple. Anyone that utilises 1/4th of a frames design is simply not playing with that frame. Hence were this whole notion of "Ash is a damage dealer" and "press 4 to win" came from to begin with.

 

I am hoping that DE does not cave to the range of opinions on Ash again from people that clearly do not know how to play with Ash. "I move my mouse frantically to mark targets"... You wouldn't have to people, if you had turned mark on from before. It has a new concept to it, and its great. And if this rework did not make it finally obvious that Ash is not meant to be a crazy damage dealer then I do not know what will.

 

Again, hoping DE does not cave to said new wave of feedback and complaints. And so I will continue to reply, like everyone else is stating an opinion. I didn't attack anyone, neither told anyone if they should share or not in their opinions. "And please stop talking like you have all the answers and knowledge"... Really? Should I close my account as well perhaps? I disagree with a lot that is said in here. I never told anyone to stop expressing themselves neither made it personal. I am clearly responding to the mechanics alone.

 

Thank you too

[Chirishman343]

1 minute ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Like what? lol. It didnt do much damage before either. Have any of you ever played anything beyond lvl 40? What damage? Other frames have stronger CC and always did o.O

It doesn't take an expert to understand the simple logic behind squishy damage dealing frames and durable less damage dealing frames. This concept is used not just in Warframe, but every game ever. That aside, been playing with Ash since the game launched. He is my main, without meaning I do not love and play plenty other frames as well. So I'd say I know enough.

"Stop talking like I have all the answers and knowledge"? Did I imply as such? And even if I did, you are seriously telling someone that is expressing an opinion to pretty much stop expressing it?

Its not my fault I have answers that could be considered as insight to things people are saying. Just as everyone else has the right to state opinion, I will state mine on theirs. I have stayed silent on this matter enough, and didn't get the chance to say my part before said rework. Now I will say as much as I need to give DE the required feeback and if possible enlighten Ash players with how the frame is meant to be played as well.

I see people in here for example claiming Smoke Screen and Teleport are useless and always where........ So the only reason they played Ash was Blade Storm? Then they don't know how to play Ash, plain and simple. Anyone that utilises 1/4th of a frames design is simply not playing with that frame. Hence were this whole notion of "Ash is a damage dealer" and "press 4 to win" came from to begin with.

 

I am hoping that DE does not cave to the range of opinions on Ash again from people that clearly do not know how to play with Ash. "I move my mouse frantically to mark targets"... You wouldn't have to people, if you had turned mark on from before. It has a new concept to it, and its great. And if this rework did not make it finally obvious that Ash is not meant to be a crazy damage dealer then I do not know what will.

 

Again, hoping DE does not cave to said new wave of feedback and complaints. And so I will continue to reply, like everyone else is stating an opinion. I didn't attack anyone, neither told anyone if they should share or not in their opinions. "And please stop talking like you have all the answers and knowledge"... Really? Should I close my account as well perhaps? I disagree with a lot that is said in here. I never told anyone to stop expressing themselves neither made it personal. I am clearly responding to the mechanics alone.

 

Thank you too

how can you say ash didnt do damage before? he was literally a room clearer. i did damn near all my sorties with him, easily topping out the kill count. if you had half decent mods you could easily murder your way through high end content.

most of us are here to blast our way through content as fast as possible. if you want to slowly work your way through the enemies, that is fine, but you're gonna be doing it solo or left behind when everyone else runs through the map. D.E. is just trying to reduce the farming speed. kill mesa so no more power leveling, kill hydroid for his double or triple mats drop checks, nerf saryn's 4 and now nerf ash's 4 so no more nuking

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

5 hours ago, .Zefir said:

@HazaRD-WARRIOR, I agree completely. Been playing like this too, on all sorts os missions.

Also, as @wtrmlnjuc and many others have suggested, the abilities cost are too demanding. Maybe if they lowered them, we can see more streamlined play with this new tweaked Ash (I can hardly consider this version a "Rework").

I do hope Devs take a look and the constructive criticism in this thread. Ash is far from unplayable, but it can be fine-tuned no doubt ...  

I'm thinking more damage to his Blade Storm as a rework would be nice. However lets not forget that it gets bonuses from other melee mods too.

The new energy costs can be very..... very... very annoying! I completely agree. On the other hand, if played with Fatal Teleport (refunds energy per tp kill) and Rage, he goes to the other extreme already where he has energy all the time o.O

I'm practically doing free blade storms at the moment with this build.

So I don't know how they could rework the energy costs without breaking it completely.

I would be curious though, if DE had some answer to all this that worked.

[Nagisawa]

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki cannot stun enemies during his stealth.

Cute, but unnecessary, when you have guns that can kill faster.

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki cannot close into enemies.

Invisibility for a full minute says otherwise.

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki's ulti is also completely useless for half the game (infested?)

OK, I have no idea how to verify this, as you may be correct, but the numbers tend to fluctuate with all the in game 'events'.

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki is squishy too.

Invisibility says, not an issue.

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Ash's skills are useless? I'm this close to finding you online to see your profile and how much you played with him to even consider such a comment.

I meant mostly useless.  I have fun with him.  And no, he's not my main because as much as I want him to be, he's never been as viable as Loki doing the same job.

15 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki is nowhere near as aggressive as Ash is. There is no comparison between the two. They are completely different play styles.

Maybe not, but he's much better as an assassin than the Ninja Assassin is

[Dragazer]

28 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Loki cannot stun enemies during his stealth.

Loki cannot close into enemies.

Loki's ulti is also completely useless for half the game (infested?)

Loki is squishy too.

Ash's skills are useless? I'm this close to finding you online to see your profile and how much you played with him to even consider such a comment.

Loki is nowhere near as aggressive as Ash is. There is no comparison between the two. They are completely different play styles.

1 second stun 10m isn't much

Switch teleport+decoy Loki is the fastest Warframe anyways too.

Infested are as easy as it gets, invis and decoy is more than enough + Irradiating disarm augment works great on infested

Irrelevant when using invis and disarm correctly, worse case scenario you can use primed flow with QT

Not exactly useless, but whatever he can do other frames do it better

Why bother wasting a crapton of energy setting up the ult when me and my team can just shoot them?

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Dragazer

[Exth]

3 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Like what? lol. It didnt do much damage before either. Have any of you ever played anything beyond lvl 40? What damage? Other frames have stronger CC and always did o.O

If you keep the combo counter you can kill enemis +100 easly with old BS, so i dont know if you  play with him to say something like that.

And Ash is also my main.

8 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

"Stop talking like I have all the answers and knowledge"? Did I imply as such? And even if I did, you are seriously telling someone that is expressing an opinion to pretty much stop expressing it?

You were dissmising everyones opinions and presenting your statements like they were final.

16 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

ive DE the required feeback and if possible enlighten Ash players with how the frame is meant to be played as well

Yeah, you dont have all the answers dude my mistake. 

Tks :D

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

Just now, Chirishman343 said:

how can you say ash didnt do damage before? he was literally a room clearer. i did damn near all my sorties with him, easily topping out the kill count. if you had half decent mods you could easily murder your way through high end content.

most of us are here to blast our way through content as fast as possible. if you want to slowly work your way through the enemies, that is fine, but you're gonna be doing it solo or left behind when everyone else runs through the map. D.E. is just trying to reduce the farming speed. kill mesa so no more power leveling, kill hydroid for his double or triple mats drop checks, nerf saryn's 4 and now nerf ash's 4 so no more nuking

No he was not. Hardly ever was. Unless like you said you modded him for that purpose alone. I for example do not put steel charge on, why? Because I find other auras to be more suiting for me all around. My mods serve my play in ways other than just blade storming all day long.

"most of us are here to blast our way through content as fast as possible" and those are the very people that I do not play with. The "I will rush to the end as fast as possible" bunch that have completely missed the point to the game. There is no fun in what you do from my perspective, it is just pressing buttons to clear rooms and run to the end to farm parts. No thanks.

You are welcome to play like that, but I know plenty of people that do not like rushing and enjoy playing the game, not rushing through it. I am among those people. Another reason why I would play with a Cernos instead of something stronger. Cause I would rather pick a weapon I enjoy rather than a weapon that simply kills everything off.

"or left behind when everyone else runs through the map".... never happened to me. In fact, using non op weapons, and not using Blade Storm all day long, I would still always do my part with as many kills, sometimes more, sometimes less as everyone else. But... should I care about those kills? No, I shouldn't. Because although I can make a group of 10 enemies disappear with a single tonkor blast of mine, I am having a lot more fun taking those 10 enemies down with my melee and hacking and slashing. End of the match, I may have half the kills you had (rarely happens, but possible if that is all you care of and your weapons are equipped for clearing maps rather than having fun) but I enjoyed every one of those kills ;)

Each to their own. There are frames out there better suited to clearing out rooms. So the people that used Ash with that notion in mind, time to adjust and learn how to play him as a whole and not in part. Or, simply find a frame that does that better for you.

Also, Ash would clear rooms out because during Blade Storm, his targets could not be killed by others. if anything, I would say he was slowing the game down before. I am assuming you are simply not happy that this all affected your kill ratio, since Blade Storm was also really slow. We've all been there. Full room of enemies and Blade Storm meant enough time to go to the toilet, make some coffee, and come back to see Blade Storm still in motion. You are contradicting yourself. That is actually slower for clearing out maps.

[OTF4L]

Let me start by saying I think this is one of the best games there are...period.  Free or not.  I admire DE for the ingenuity and creativity they have poured into this game.  There are soo many endearing features and facets to how you can play this game that im not even sure DE is aware of them all.  As a 30+ year vetran of systems engineering I have worked on project management, software development and Networking. I only say that to say I recognize that the schedule in which DE rolls out these patches and new content is staggering and very impressive by any standard!!  

Now my thoughts on changes to ASH.  It is not as much of a individual complaint that I have as much as it is a systematic complaint.

Balance isn't necessarily having every single frame capable of killing or handling every single mission and boss type.

Heres the thing about weapons and such.  The "Mastery Fodder" is just as necessary as the "OP God Gear".  Why? Well You would not be able to identify one without the others existence!!

I think one should be careful not to end up with a game of "Skins" (All the weapons and frames look different but all do the same amount of damage) instead of special unique weapons and war frames.

I am also concerned that some of the mechanics may become too complicated for my younger children.  It is already a challenge for them to use and master the current state of mechanics and content but it is achievable for them and I like that.

Why not let us have a few OP frames and weapons? We eventually get tired of crushing everything with an OP setup and thats when you try others and use your OP as the goto when things get tough.  

I view my Warframes and weapons and companions as "Tools".  I can obviously use a nuclear missile to blow up a gopher hole and it will get the job done but it would also be boring and a waste of power.  However this does not mean that a nuclear missile does not have a place in the arsenal.  A good toolbox has the right tool for each job.  That is how I think of my warframe aresenal.

I wont look in my toolbox and say to myself wow that was too easy to do this job with this tool. If I really am excited about the tool I will find a job that is a challenge for it.  Why not increase the difficulty of the content instead of nerfing the "Tools"?

I know it is more time consuming and difficult to adapt content than it is to adapt gear, but if you really want to be creative it might be interesting to try creating content and mechanics that make something that is considered "OP" challenging. instead of just "wacking" it into conformity...lol

For competitive purposes why not make scores in leader boards include which frame and weapon were used?  Or place specific mechanics into compettitive content that thwarts "OP gear".  I dont know if this is done already but my point is just that I hope DE would leave us a few "Point and Click" weapons and frames because there are some of us adults and also some kids that still enjoy just mindlessly going into a map and destroying everything.  

Finally For those who dont like the above mentioned type of game play I ask: "Is it not possible to simply use different frames and weapons than the ones you deem "Too Easy"."

"The squeaky wheel gets the oil" but the satisfied people often get overlooked cause they dont complain.

I started playing this game 1 year ago and I was very happy to find a game that could be as complicated or as simple as I wanted it to be, and that I could play with my 9 yr old , 13, 17, and adult children.   I am all about change and all about growth but it is my fondest wish that the "spirit" of the game I started playing remains throughout all of the growth and changes.

[Cubewano]

52 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

"Inactive boring mechanic"

The people that keep supporting this are the people that are indeed spamming just Blade Storm. If you use Ash as melee (his passive supports the idea, melee mods add to his skills and finishers, and melee aura adds to his blade storm and, well, melee... how many more hints does one need?) and use the tools at hand right (smoke screen and teleport... don't be afraid to use them more often people, like, all the time) you would see the pace with him becomes so fast that Blade Storm on the contrary relaxes you enough to keep hacking and slashing again right after it.

I'm sorry if I don't agree? Just because you want a break mid match doesn't mean we all do, some of us are interesting in continuously playing, and when we get tired, take a break from the game entirely. That said, none of what you said counters the point that the cinematic sequence for BS is anything less than un-interactive and can be easily found as boring. I could care less what the rest of Ash's kit can do, because that isn't what I'm discussing. 

Also unclear how you drew from my desire to be more involved in gameplay that I'm the sort who wants to afk in matches while hammering a single button, that is almost the exact opposite of my message. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Cubewano

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

9 minutes ago, Nagisawa said:

Cute, but unnecessary, when you have guns that can kill faster.

Invisibility for a full minute says otherwise.

OK, I have no idea how to verify this, as you may be correct, but the numbers tend to fluctuate with all the in game 'events'.

Invisibility says, not an issue.

I meant mostly useless.  I have fun with him.  And no, he's not my main because as much as I want him to be, he's never been as viable as Loki doing the same job.

Maybe not, but he's much better as an assassin than the Ninja Assassin is

1) Quite nessecary when you dont want to be killed while activating it. Also, there is a difference between fun factor and just clearing out maps. I play melee cause I enjoy it, not because I have to, not because it is the most effective. It sure is the most fun for me. Hence, smoke screen is perfect for my play style. Or should we all play in the same manner? There are other frames out there to cater to this notion. Thanks but no thanks.

2) I was sure you would say that cause I was sure you didnt get what I mean. Teleport, closing in fast, Loki cannot. End of story. He needs to close in by running. That is actually what is cute, thinking you can close in with melee when your team can kill them off with ranged weapons anyway.

3) Sure. I wasn't dissing Loki though, I like him, but he is a different strategy all up. Its just that disarm, well not half the game that is an exaggeration, but even that one faction (infested) that he has no 4th skill against, Ash does.

4) For early maps, I am sure you have played against Eximus enemies with auras. Loki is squishier than a bug. I would know, I revive them all the time despite their "invisibility".

5) I just proved twice, and on other comments too, that they do not do the same job. How did this become a Loki vs Ash conversation again? Loki cannot do what Ash does. Not by a long shot. Ash is a melee character, that is his prime purpose. His skills highlight this in ways that Loki never could. Teleport Switch? And you can do the same things more effectively? I can close the gap to any enemy (whilst in melee) in an instant with Ash. Loki cannot. Even in stealth, he has to run. Loki also cannot "defy" knockdown with his invisibility. Who needs stun? They practically never know me down because of the timing I have on it.

6) If he isn't as aggressive, then he isn't better. The new Blade Storm actually has made this difference even more as it can be used for select targets for less energy than actually using the 4th skill of old. Loki also has no Fatal Teleport. I'd say that is also a huge difference (not that teleport alone wasn't, but anyway)

All Loki does is go invisible all day long. That is it. That is the extent of his skill set. I just mentioned a range of better tactics Ash can do. Two completely different frames. Loki is also better for ranged weapons as he silences them, hence, why are we even comparing? They are completely different. What you prefer is up to you of course, but state it as such, "I prefer Loki to Ash for so and so"... Right out stating that he is better as an objective opinion is really not getting us anywhere bro. If he was objectively better, then why on earth would I feel he leaves my playstyle needs unfulfilled? Why would I even bother with Ash if that is the case? Hence, all a matter of subjective opinion and different playstyles. I think it best we all start to clarify on this (me included, more than I have apparently so as not to get people riled up, as I am after all talking about a playstyle that, in my opinion, Ash clearly caters to and no other frame does).

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

17 minutes ago, Exth said:

If you keep the combo counter you can kill enemis +100 easly with old BS, so i dont know if you  play with him to say something like that.

And Ash is also my main.

You were dissmising everyones opinions and presenting your statements like they were final.

Yeah, you dont have all the answers dude my mistake. 

Tks :D

"You were dissmising everyones opinions and presenting your statements like they were final." that is the impression I got from other peoples impressions. When they state "this sucks" and dont explain or back something up, I'd say its pretty dismissive. I am simply giving my feedback on peoples opinions that I disagree, and backing it up. What am I supposed to do? I disagree, clearly, so I am expressing it. I find it as important for DE to see my opinions as to see yours. And I will take the effort to explain why I have said opinions, in a manner of "backing up" my argument if you may say.

Thank you for pretending to not read the rest of my viable points.

I'll keep it short, Ash slowed the game down before. His "clearing the room" was for you to sit there, lock enemies into invulnerability for your pleasure alone, and it took 10 times as long as it would without it.

You are welcome.