Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)MavericK_FOX-_]

I have been using my ash as my main since 2014 and this change hasn't made ash any worse or made no difference to him what so ever. First of all in regards to blade storm the developers did try a world on fire build that was completely broken and later said they only wanted to make it more interactive but keep it fundamentally the same and this change achieves that perfectly and let's be honest if it were like world on fire and was more potent than it is currently you all would still be complaining about it and hey if you dont like blade storm then guess what there is this mod called fatal teleport, dont know if you have ever heard of it. Speaking of teleport i think the changes for this are fine but i do agree in saying being able to teleport to resources would be a nice addition or when invisible ash can teleport to anywhere kinda like teleporting between shadows in aragami which would provide a lot of creativity and freedom for stealth and on the subject of being invisible the being able to use smoke screen while moving is something that should have been in the game from the start. Finally in regards to shuriken i think the best change for this whenever an enemy is killed by the shuriken their corpse vanishes like they do when they are blade stormed, putting further emphasis on the stealth but keeping the ability the same. overall this change is good and if DE dont do any more to him i can live with it but i would like you all (including DE) to consider the ideas i have mentioned.

[trace_phage]

ending bladestorm sometimes makes my weapon disapear visually

also got stuck in bladestorm multipe times, I could run around but using melee would teleport me back to my last target untill I was dead

[Crispy_Calamari]

To me bladestorm doesnt feel much different tbh.

like some people said: jes you do have to target the enemies first and jes u cant nuke a whole room by pressing 4 once but in the end of the day it still feels very similar to the old bs.

I mean when DE said that they were planning to change bladestorm i expected a complete rework of the ability like saryn or mag had with their kits but to see that now instead of pressing 4 you just need to hover your mouse and then press 4 isnt that big of a change to me. 

I´d even consider this a nerf since the animation is still there, the damage is the same, it costs more energy and it takes longer to execute/target the enemies. this isnt a rework in my eyes.

im not saying that its useless now or anything. Actually its quite fun to have a slight change gameplaywise but for me it doesnt fix the problem that you still have to watch how ash kills all the enemies while you can just lean back and do something else in the meantime.

wasnt the rework supposed to make bladestorm more interactive? i mean in a certain degree it surely does but then again not so much.

I even have nothing against bs being replaced with a complete new ability instead. it wouldnt bother me if there´s no animation anymore (since it felt really boring after a while anyways). 

For instance i really like the idea of some people which basically is that ash´s clones do the killing and the player himself is able to move around freely.

or some sort of melee mode like xcal or valkyr have in which ash actually makes use of his wrist blades. (its quite a shame imo that you have those but u cant get to use them except for in the animation which are too fast to really "enjoy" them anyways).

If the melee mode would even provide some sort of mobility tweak it would synergize well with parcour 2.0

maybe something like being able to teleport and latch onto certain constructs on the ceiling or walls from which you can execute finishers from.

or maybe even something like being able to dash in order to evade stuff (for example like tracer from overwatch)

hell i´d even prefer a full on dual katana melee mode instead of the same old animation. (onikiri and ubadachi ftw)

These sort of changes would make his ult more interactive.

[BalancedFury]

After playing with the new ash i feel like, the "marking" idea wasn't a good one (i thought it was), whenever i try to mark anyone with a 4 people squad, enemies get killed faster than i can mark, so i can't even use the ability, i think ash needs some enchances to his other abilities(1,2,3)or melee while in mark mode so he can do something in a 4 member team setting, also, marking takes way too much energy, before it was 100 energy 18 enemies, now its 2 enemies (3marks each) and you already spent 90 energy even with invisibility that's waaaaay too much, i think he either needs more damage or less energy cost, that's my opinion on his rework

[dodyouserious]

the rework is so lazy its the same as the old one except now you have to aim, you could have taken some great and better ideas suggested by warframe players on this forum DE!

[ThePredicament]

Shurikens are great now, it's always complemented his kit but the new changes does fix a bit of the problems its had before. It is a slightly missed opportunity to get bladestorm in order though.

Smokescreen change is also welcomed, is not a great reload cancelling skill adding this to shurikens as ways to make the flow of battle much smoother.

Stabby Teleport (dagger+tele) is now technically better than Bladestorm, it does amazing amounts of damage on a normal basis for less and faster.

As for the Bladestorm changes, it's an obvious nerf. Instead of solving the problems it actually had, the changes ignored them and made the skill worse. Let's look at the problems that the skill actually had:

Non-interactive, it's still there, just now you have to paint enemies, its not a press 4 -> slideshow it's now press 4 -> paint -> press 4 -> slideshow. The whole point is to get rid of the second part. Solution? Get rid of the first equation, make marking an Ash passive THEN like slash dash, have Ash attack enemies in a linear order while clones pop out to deal with those outside of it. Nice and quick, no pop ins, things die fast, still more "interactive". Bonus: Shurikens mark enemies to max (3) strikes.

Enemies being invuln while being bladestormed, easy, give priority to outside damage sources, if the enemies are dead Ash and his clones will just leave the target OR enemies are subject to outside damage, whatever causes the greater damage (Ash or outside source) that would be the thing that destroys it at the end (like Nyx's mindcontrol damage) but the damage still stacks (Bladestorm damage plus outside damage sources).

[Ikkidislav]

It sucked, bladestorm is not practical anymore, makes no sense you make the frame stop to mark 6 or 7 enemies(you can and will be hit without invisibility) in a screen with 50,and the cost ,really? , rework for me is when you try to make something better or more practical , the rework make basically no real changes just make the ability more annoying for Ash players...and no i dont need a frame focused on invisibility i have Loki for that...common DE is better to take Bladestorm out of the frame than do this...

[pizzavu]

I've been playing ash (and then ash prime) since 2014, and I've never really used bladestorm all that much till sorties came out, I don't see why everybody is so focused on bladestorm and ignoring every other skill on ash, I personally think that teleport (even without fatal teleport) is pretty good, along with smoke bomb, the smoke bomb ability may be slower than loki or ivara (just something I've seen from other posts, never actually used them) but it still allows you to turn invisible and revive your enemies or run past enemies in stealth, and another thing, why is everybody so focused on stats and stuff and not so much on appearance? I play ash because he looks good, I don't really find his passive useful, bladestorm wasn't all that useful anyways, I've been using teleport to kill everything even without fatal teleport, smoke bomb is purely for the revives and low health, everybody is so focused on stats and things comparing everything that nobody just stops and looks at what ash can do by itself, without a comparison, ash can be pretty good even without all this bladestorm crap if you just stop and look at it's abilities, smoke bomb can be used to turn invisible and shoot everything to death without the enemy shooting at you, teleport can be used to get out of a bad situation (or murder enemies with it's stagger) shuriken can be used to bleed out enemies and watch them slowly die off (or duels to watch your opponent slowly die off while you dodge everything) and I got nothing else to say, I've just been repeating things for half of this so I'm just gonna go post this now

 

Edit: Oh and I now use bladestorm purely for the black and white colors, looks pretty nice, even if it makes me blind to caches

Edited November 27, 2016 by pizzavu

[KoinStar]

After playing the new Ash, I have to say, it left more to be desired. Shuriken wasn't even touched, Smoke Screen and Teleport were given slight QoL changes, and Bladestorm just became a 2-step process. The uncancel-able animations are still there (one of the problems with Bladestorm, like getting caught on an ancient, not being able to revive the rescue target, etc.), enemies are still invincible in the animation (one of the main problems), its still redundant with Teleport/Fatal Teleport, and trying to mark an enemy in a group ends up marking the entire group. Overall, Bladestorm is still pretty boring. I would propose each ability to get looked at for a more in-depth rework.

Shuriken is pretty simple, so I would suggest adding more to it. I propose that tapping 1 would throw out a fan of (non-homing) shuriken, and holding it would send Ash into a lock-on mode (like current Bladestorm) and when you release, it sends out homing shuriken (like it does now); you would be able to lock on to an enemy multiple times. This would give the player a few more options to play with, and allow them to target specific enemies. Damage would scale with Strength, and possibly the amount of shuriken you can throw would scale with Duration (like how Nova's Null Star works; I'm just attempting to have more stats matter, this isn't required). An augment would replace the homing shuriken with one large non-homing shuriken that deals more damage, but just shoots straight. Also, an idea that I like is to have consecutive casts cost less (like Slash Dash and Landslide).

For Smoke Screen, I would suggest changing it from an invisibility power (which we have 3 of total, 4 if you count Invisibility Arrow, and it is really similar to Loki's) to an actual Smoke Screen. Ash would throw down a smoke bomb, leaving an area of smoke. There would still be a stagger of whoever is caught in the initial blast. Enemies inside would be blind and wander towards noise, and shoot at noise (including their allies). Ash and friends would be able to see the outlines of the enemies, so they could take advantage of the confusion by either escaping, or assassinating them. This gives the ability some CC and makes it more team-friendly. The duration of the initial stagger would scale with Strength, the duration of the smoke itself would scale with Duration, and the range of the smoke would of course scale with Range. An augment idea for it, for people who want the invisibility, would be to give Ash and friends invisibility when they leave the smoke (it lingers on them). This would combine the new ability and current augment. Another augment idea would be for their to be lingering smoke on Ash and co., but instead of turning them invisible, it blinds nearby enemies (the smoke gets in their eyes).

For Teleport, I wouldn't change anything, just add to it. I would add a combo counter that reduces cost on consecutive casts (like Ripline, and the above mentioned abilities). This would allow multiple consecutive teleports at a low cost, allowing players more mobility, and allowing them to manually simulate Bladestorm. This would especially work with Fatal Teleport. For people who like the cinematic kills, Fatal Teleport could do them. The reason I mention this is because, as I said before, it's redundant having both Teleport and Bladestorm; Bladestorm is a less interactive Teleport, and I'd rather retain Teleport.

So, I think a new 4th ability should be made, that's not based on one of his other abilities. It could be anything, but of course I'll give my own suggestion.

Since some unique parts of Bladestorm are the Clones Ash summons and the wrist blades, I would suggest an ability that integrates those, but again, it could be something new. The common idea is that Ash would summon Clones to help him fight, and they could use any of his other 3 abilities, but would be restricted to the wrist blades.

There are many ways to go about this, so I'll offer some different options.

This ability could be channeled or duration-based.

The clones could scale with Ash's melee mods. 

Just the clones could be restricted to the wrist blades, or Ash could be as well.

The amount of clones could be changeable, or restricted to a set number (like 2).

There are 2 different types of the clones' movements, and of those 2, 2 different options they could follow. They could either loosely follow Ash (not like Hall of Mirrors; more loose) or wander freely like Specters. And, they could either only cast abilities when Ash casts them (allowing some degree of control as to where and when they cast) or cast them freely.

So, those are my ideas for an Ash rework. I'm not terribly attached to the 4th, I just wanted to integrate what unique aspects were already present. However, I definitely want the improvements for Shuriken and Teleport, and don't want Bladestorm to just be a lazy, cheaper chain of Fatal Teleports. Also, I think the Smoke Screen change would give Ash more team play, instead of a selfish invisibility which Loki does better, and the augment could still include it.

[Goblin_Slayer69]

the problem i think for hes 4 is that it has kill cam, that thing needs to go away and maybe just for fun make hes 2 and 3 into one ability then you can make a new fun ability that maybe will get more ppl to like ash :) <33 <33

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, pizzavu said:

I've been playing ash (and then ash prime) since 2014, and I've never really used bladestorm all that much till sorties came out, I don't see why everybody is so focused on bladestorm and ignoring every other skill on ash, I personally think that teleport (even without fatal teleport) is pretty good, along with smoke bomb, the smoke bomb ability may be slower than loki or ivara (just something I've seen from other posts, never actually used them) but it still allows you to turn invisible and revive your enemies or run past enemies in stealth, and another thing, why is everybody so focused on stats and stuff and not so much on appearance? I play ash because he looks good, I don't really find his passive useful, bladestorm wasn't all that useful anyways, I've been using teleport to kill everything even without fatal teleport, smoke bomb is purely for the revives and low health, everybody is so focused on stats and things comparing everything that nobody just stops and looks at what ash can do by itself, without a comparison, ash can be pretty good even without all this bladestorm crap if you just stop and look at it's abilities, smoke bomb can be used to turn invisible and shoot everything to death without the enemy shooting at you, teleport can be used to get out of a bad situation (or murder enemies with it's stagger) shuriken can be used to bleed out enemies and watch them slowly die off (or duels to watch your opponent slowly die off while you dodge everything) and I got nothing else to say, I've just been repeating things for half of this so I'm just gonna go post this now

 

Edit: Oh and I now use bladestorm purely for the black and white colors, looks pretty nice, even if it makes me blind to caches

This would be because a good number who played with Ash only played Bladestorm.  They didn't really PLAY Ash the frame.  Once Bladestorm was changed, they suddenly had to actually play Ash instead of Bladestorming their way thru missions.  Those new to Ash or that didn't use Bladestorm as a crutch don't seem to have a problem with the change at all.  I know that my statement might be over generalizing things, but there is a good bit of truth to it.

[Asher]

As an Ash main, I am pretty happy with the rework. However, I have two main compliants.

The first is the energy cost. Before, you could mark 18 enemies for the cost of 100 energy, while it is 270 now without invisibility or 180+35 with invisiblity. The ability is marginally less efficient than it was before. I would suggest taking down the base cost per mark to 10 without invis and 5 with invis. This would take down the overall energy draw to 180 without Smoke Screen and 90+35 with Smoke Screen. It is still higher than before, but it is much closer.

My other compliant is the amount of time spent staring at enemies. Having to look at an enemy three times to fully mark them is too time consuming, and will kill you at later levels. Even with invis, a stray bombard rocket is all it would take to put you out. My suggestion would be to make Bladestorm automatically give as many marks as necesary to kill that enemy, or the maximum amount if it cant be killed with Bladestorm.

All in all, the rework is fine, but there is still some fine tuning to do. I hope DE follows through and leaves Ash in a good position instead of leaving him as is, otherwise he will not see much use outside of fanatics such as myself.

Edited November 27, 2016 by OmegaMK1

[Pavelord]

Post in the megathread

And shuriken had its curving tweak, so theres that.

[achromos]

Also....

 

Why did you choose that text color  :C

[KoinStar]

11 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

Post in the megathread

And shuriken had its curving tweak, so theres that.

I did, but i'm pretty sure it got drowned out. Also, this mostly addresses new ideas, not the current revisit. And Shuriken is still rather bland, I thought this would add more to it.

Edited November 27, 2016 by KoinStar

[KoinStar]

Just now, achromos said:

Also....

 

Why did you choose that text color  :C

You mean Black? What text color should I choose?

[Pavelord]

Just now, KoinStar said:

I did, but i'm pretty sure it got drowned out. Also, this mostly addresses new ideas, not the current revisit.

They do read the whole thread, so its better all is in one place.

[KoinStar]

Just now, Pavelord said:

They do read the whole thread, so its better all is in one place.

I'd definitely be glad if they read & considered it, but I also wanted Player feedback as well, which didn't happen.

[beltheria]

I've not been able to find if this has already been said or not, but one new QoL improvement that would be really nice in this new Blade Storm era would be a counter over the ability in the bottom right section of the screen to show how many targets/attacks you have lined up. It may not seem all that useful in faster paced missions, but if you're trying for stealth it would be pretty radical to know.

Imagine a scoping out a spy vault and being able to just keep count of how many of those sensor drones/roaming guards you've actually marked before firing it off.

Also: that targeting waggle has to go, it's just so jarring.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

I know this might have been said before, but I feel like Ash should have his abilities reworked completely, so that they are capable of doing things that I can't already do with other Warframes, and better (Loki for invisibility, etc).

A shame, too, considering that out of all the Warframes, Ash is the only one who deserves to be deemed "a space ninja".

[spacedkadet]

28 minutes ago, KoinStar said:

You mean Black? What text color should I choose?

Default - if youuse the old theme for the forums your post looks like this:

 

[CursedByLight]

The ultimate outcome of this might be:

• Slowing the frame down as a whole.
• Your teammates will outpace you and kill whatever you're trying to mark.
• Players with established power range setups will no longer benefit.
• Ash's motif will be swapped from swift silent killer to patient killer waiting for his time to strike.
• Smokescreen's change will be good, however it won't fit thematically with the proposed ultimate scheme because it is being adjusted to be more on the move.

Things that could be improved:

• The ultimate could remain fast paced.
• In the case that you don't outright kill something in higher level missions, keep the animation short so that the rest of your team can engage.
• Make all of the marked targets get hit at once. It has been said that watching each animation isn't a fun time, especially if you don't kill something outright.
• Teammates can hurt marked targets. This is an outlying annoyance among the community if the Ash in question doesn't have high power strength/good melee.
• Rework the animation to be you overlooking your ultimate taking place from where you cast it.
• Invulnerability during the animation.
• Either have the shadow clones do all the work visually, or make it look as though your frame vanishes for a second to decimate the enemies in the distance.
• Keep the current mechanic where enemies within range of the targeted enemy will also be hit.

Locking on is a good mechanic to think about for this game, but it would be better implemented in the throwing melee category, perhaps in the form of a melee mod.

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

A shame, too, considering that out of all the Warframes, Ash is the only one who deserves to be deemed "a space ninja".

Actually Ivara fits the "Ninja" role more in the traditional sense than all the other Warframes.  Forget the whole "Robin Hood" thing and really look at her kit.  Ash fits more with the action Ninja Gaiden ninja theme.  Look and style wise Ash screams ninja.  :D

[KoinStar]

11 minutes ago, spacedkadet said:

Default - if youuse the old theme for the forums your post looks like this:

 

Weird. How do I fix this? It just looks like black text on a white background for the normal post.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, battlehut said:

To me bladestorm doesnt feel much different tbh.

like some people said: jes you do have to target the enemies first and jes u cant nuke a whole room by pressing 4 once but in the end of the day it still feels very similar to the old bs.

I mean when DE said that they were planning to change bladestorm i expected a complete rework of the ability like saryn or mag had with their kits but to see that now instead of pressing 4 you just need to hover your mouse and then press 4 isnt that big of a change to me. 

I´d even consider this a nerf since the animation is still there, the damage is the same, it costs more energy and it takes longer to execute/target the enemies. this isnt a rework in my eyes.

im not saying that its useless now or anything. Actually its quite fun to have a slight change gameplaywise but for me it doesnt fix the problem that you still have to watch how ash kills all the enemies while you can just lean back and do something else in the meantime.

wasnt the rework supposed to make bladestorm more interactive? i mean in a certain degree it surely does but then again not so much.

I even have nothing against bs being replaced with a complete new ability instead. it wouldnt bother me if there´s no animation anymore (since it felt really boring after a while anyways). 

For instance i really like the idea of some people which basically is that ash´s clones do the killing and the player himself is able to move around freely.

or some sort of melee mode like xcal or valkyr have in which ash actually makes use of his wrist blades. (its quite a shame imo that you have those but u cant get to use them except for in the animation which are too fast to really "enjoy" them anyways).

If the melee mode would even provide some sort of mobility tweak it would synergize well with parcour 2.0

maybe something like being able to teleport and latch onto certain constructs on the ceiling or walls from which you can execute finishers from.

or maybe even something like being able to dash in order to evade stuff (for example like tracer from overwatch)

hell i´d even prefer a full on dual katana melee mode instead of the same old animation. (onikiri and ubadachi ftw)

These sort of changes would make his ult more interactive.

I like the way u think !!