Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[sylent1]

Ash was my favorite, now his ult is useless at high level with lots of enemies. You should have just given him a completely new ult, not this crippled thing. Ash is one of the favorites in the game. Every high level youtuber loves Ash. Why? Because he is the true ninja. You should have crafted something worthy of him. Instead you just made the existing ult is really annoying to use.

[Hypernaut1]

12 minutes ago, Soridian said:

*Triggered*

I still have qualms with how mag was handled, i shall stop there before I write essays about mag In an ash thread lol.

 

Mag is by far the most often unfairly nerfed WF in this game. That said, I did come to realise that I didn't need to be able to nuke entire corpus maps for 15 energy and I'm still very effective with her. I've come to grips with her nerf.

Ash is still good at assassinating multiple enemies. He just can't nuke a room as easily anymore. He's basically the same frame with some restraints on his ultimate. I find the new BS more engaging, but still in need of a few tweaks.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[.Tabris]

@Soridian @Hypernaut1, fell the same with Mag. Her rework left me .... wanting

As for Ash (the center topic), I find it more of a tweak than a rework, per se. As a matter of fact, he plays somewhat like que new Mag and Saryn: Playtesting him I've found out he works better if we use his entire kit. On high levels, Smoke Bombing Blade Storm is a must, either for energy cost and survivability - Smoke Bomb being cast while moving was maybe the best thing of this rework. I can calmly and safely mark my targets. I find the synergy very nice and ninja-like really.

He is no min-max now, I mod him for 110% Duration, 145~% Power and have achieved very good results (missions as far as lvl 50 no prob, but I'm yet to test it on higher ones), and I even have a free slot for Fatal Teleport, which is the "low cost Blade Storm" for the VIP target.

Regarding Teleport, I didn't find the new tweak all that revolutionary. I really thing it should be like Itzal's ... go wherever you like as far as Reach goes. Want to less than maximum reach? Aim on the ground (like Volt's Shock) and if you bump into an enemy, he's open for Finisher just as usual. Itzal's Blink is similar when it Stuns nearby targets, so, why not ?

Again ... For me it was more of a tweak than a proper rework ... Let's see what the Devs can dig out of this Feedback Megathread ...
 

Edited November 28, 2016 by .Zefir
typo

[Etharien]

I have played ash my fair share and thought that i would add my 2 cents to the feedback megathread, in a vain attempt at perhaps affecting change. As the only ability to receive a more extensive rework, i will only cover Bladestorm.

For me bladestorm before was overpowered because: ash attacked all the enemies he could in a large aoe until death (or an attack limit). He was also invulnerable while doing so, and allies couldn't do damage to currently bladestormed foes.

Firstly, the new mechanism to directly target each individual enemy to mark them for 1 attack each and move your cursor over them again for subsequent attacks (limit 3) is a direct nerf. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Currently, many people find themselves simply using their weapon instead as sweeping their weapon versus sweeping their reticle for bladestorm targeting is essentially the same thing. You are just clicking while sweeping to kill the enemy right there and then. I would prefer it if marking enemies had a larger target acquisition radius, similar to Mesa's peacemaker(but not to the same extent). This would provide incentive to target a large group of enemies without individually targeting each one, which someone with a weapon can do all the same.

Second, while enemies are being ulted they are still immune to other allies damage. Not much to say here other than to please change this.

Lastly the energy cost to bladestorm was a nerf. A heavy nerf at that. Before: bladestorm up to 18 enemies for 100 cost (zero efficiency) Now: bladestorm enemies at 15 energy each (or 10 in smoke screen), which equates to 15*18 = 270 energy (or 180 energy in smoke screen) for the same amount of enemies. That's a pretty heavy handed cost increase, while saying that you are increasing synergy between smokescreen. Please lower the energy cost to something more reasonable, as the ablity already lost the massive AOE autotarget (which was a big enough nerf). It did not need a cost nerf as well. I would prefer to see something like 6 energy per target (6*18 = 108) which would roughly equate to the old bladestorm cost, and the synergy between bladestorm and smokescreen be something along the lines of: While in smokescreen, bladestorm attacks/animations are performed 50% faster, or alternatively: bladestorm ash procs tick for 25% longer/stronger.

TLDR: Overall: the buffs to his other abilities were nice QoL changes, but currently bladestorm is lacking as an ultimate. Gunplay overshadows his ultimate, and the cost is too high. Also, allow allies to do damage to bladestormed enemies.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Etharien
grammar.

[Soridian]

30 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Mag is by far the most often unfairly nerfed WF in this game. That said, I did come to realise that I didn't need to be able to nuke entire corpus maps for 15 energy and I'm still very effective with her. I've come to grips with her nerf.

Oh I'm not saying she's no longer playable, on the contrary she's my most played warframe and I still enjoy rampaging through levels with her. My problem was how the rework was handled - i.e the bugs on magnetise on launch of the rework were left in for ages and skewed the feedback for it as people were defending the rework quoting damage that should not of been possible. 

-In regards to ash: I'd also like a way to cancel Bladestorm marking for those times when you just want to extract or you hit the 4 accidentally (perhaps the middle mouse button?). Also, it might be asking a bit much but it'd be nice to have some sort of use for the marking mode beyond bladestom I.e perhaps reduced enemy awareness like the rakta dark dagger effect?  Truthfully i just want a reason to run around with the black cloud effect more often, lol 

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Soridian

[Dragazer]

The new targeting system isn't that bad, its just that the numbers are severely nerfed.

Main issues: 

• It costs way too much per target (Pre rework: 100 energy for 18 enemies. Post rework: 270 energy for 18 enemies 180 while invis) 
• You are now limited to 3 attacks per target (when b4 rework your clones would attack until your target dies.)
• People don't want to be stuck in a cut scene
• Shuriken is terrible without augment

 

What can be done to fix it:

• Reduce energy cost to 5 per target 3 while invis to retain the same efficiency pre-rework  
• Remove the need for multiple marks, just 1 mark per target is needed
• Let clones attack target until they die just like b4 this rework.
• Give us the option to press 4 again to leave the Blade storm animation and let clones do the work.
• Increase damage in order to compensate for now needing manual targeting (This was said to have happened in the devstream IDK why they didn't go through with it.) 
• Give shuriken a short stun that scales with duration (Shuriken used to have a stun on hit before Update 11 Damage 2.0, idk why it was removed)
• Allow Shuriken to mark enemies for Blade Storm
• Increases number of shurikens and scale number with power str 
• Perhaps give Shuriken the Vauban and Ivara treatment and have different Shurikens to toggle from.

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dragazer

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

2 hours ago, S.C. said:

Then how about you suggest an alternate solution? Preferably something with the potential of satisfying both sides? You know, just like you're supposed to do in this thread if you have nothing new to add?

Otherwise, cry me a river.

How about not touching FT at all? If its not broken why fix it? & the fact that the skill itself barely change before & after rework. The reason why you wanna change FT is bcos you wanna give the BS animation to it yeah? So focus on BS & dont bring up other skills unless you have ideas on synergy between those skills.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[StealthyCARNAGE]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

How about not touching FT at all? If its not broken why fix it? & the fact that the skill itself barely change before & after rework. The reason why you wanna change FT is bcos you wanna give the BS animation to it yeah? So focus on BS & dont bring up other skills unless you have ideas on synergy between those skills.

I think you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension...

First of all, it's only a visual change. So it literally makes no difference.

Second of all, the reason I suggested that change is so that people who are against removing the player from Bladestorm, because they like that animation, still have that animation by means of a different ability.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, S.C. said:

I think you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension...

First of all, it's only a visual change. So it literally makes no difference.

Second of all, the reason I suggested that change is so that people who are against removing the player from Bladestorm, because they like that animation, still have that animation by means of a different ability.

I told you to focus on 1 skill only, dont bring up other skill/ sacrifice other skill for another one, thats a bad way to address a rework. Come up with something else for BS, leave FT alone. No matter how insignificant the change is, unless it has something to do with synergy.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, Dragazer said:

I would have honestly agreed with you as well but...:

 

After 21 pages of feedback they act like we were all happy about the changes made.

Big difference between Excal and Ash. Ash had prime access, Excal, Mesa did not..this is different because the rework was after prime access..so not even Sayrn was reworked after prime access.

But i digress ..we should really stay on topic

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Big difference between Excal and Ash. Ash had prime access, Excal, Mesa did not..this is different because the rework was after prime access..so not even Sayrn was reworked after prime access

Well technically Excalibur had Founders Program which was sort of like Prime Access 

[JFSIMON]

#0

Spoiler

Before introducing the first one , let's talk about animation / cutscene problem .

The best solution I thought is : Manually stop Bladestorm by press 4 again .

To prevent players from , slamming 4 several times to make Ash activate and deactivate Bladestorm within a Planck time ,

suggesting to add a timer , players can only stop that after a period of time .

#1

Spoiler

Like Vauban's Minelayer or Ivara's Quiver , hold 4 to switch between old and new Bladestorms .

This may be the best approach I've thought to have the best of both worlds .

#2

Spoiler

When Ash is invisible , press 4 to get into targeting mode ,

(since nobody can see Ash , players can targeting them calmly)

press 4 again while invisible , or , upon becoming visible , will instantly activate new Bladestorm .

When Ash is not invisible , press 4 to use old Bladestorm (for emergency) .

This may be suitable for both stealth plays and intense fights .

#3

Spoiler

The worst one , return the old Bladestorm or make people accept the reworked one .

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

19 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Well technically Excalibur had Founders Program which was sort of like Prime Access 

Not on console, and super jump was still a thing.....moving on. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[StealthyCARNAGE]

Just now, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

I told you to focus on 1 skill only, dont bring up other skill/ sacrifice other skill for another one, thats a bad way to address a rework. Come up with something else for BS, leave FT alone. No matter how insignificant the change is, unless it has something to do with synergy.

Firstly, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Secondly, you're in no position to tell me what to do or not to do.

Thirdly, to 'sacrifice' a skill would imply some sort of functional loss. However, as it is only a visual change, there is no such thing.

Fourthly, so far I've mainly just seen you whining at other people for daring to come up with ideas that don't match your own narrow-minded criteria. Not even by coming up with alternatives, mind you. Just inane reason #1, #2 and #3. And as such rather unconstructive criticism is fairly meaningless, I don't think there is any real point in bothering with you any further.

Hence, unless you can actually come up with something of value, I simply won't. Cheerio.

[Hemmo67]

what should i say

.... i really don't know

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

I just thought of this ridiculous ideas. for BS

REVERSE BLADESTORM

Instead of ash teleporting all over the place stabbing enemies, how about ash teleported the enemies to him to stab?

Like Ash creates a 8m area of black clouds surround him, enemies marked appeared from it (teleported) around him, 5 at a time, then he does the Assassin's creed style of chain finishers attacks (AC Brotherhood). FOV changed to a wide one. Then pressing melee & directional will do finisher, while press 2ndary+directional to throw BS version of shuriken, & press BS again (or empty energy) to blow the rest & ending the skill with a powerfull blast proc (like syndicate proc, but with ninjutsu stance).

Why teleporting the enemies to us? Here's The thing...STALKER CAN DO THIS TOO TO US.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

8 minutes ago, S.C. said:

Firstly, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Secondly, you're in no position to tell me what to do or not to do.

Thirdly, to 'sacrifice' a skill would imply some sort of functional loss. However, as it is only a visual change, there is no such thing.

Fourthly, so far I've mainly just seen you whining at other people for daring to come up with ideas that don't match your own narrow-minded criteria. Not even by coming up with alternatives, mind you. Just inane reason #1, #2 and #3. And as such rather unconstructive criticism is fairly meaningless, I don't think there is any real point in bothering with you any further.

Hence, unless you can actually come up with something of value, I simply won't. Cheerio.

Well then enlight me...how are you gonna change BS WITHOUT TOUCHING FT. If you cant, then theres the problem i have been trying to show you.

I have been throwing some BS rework ideas around this thread, none of which have something to do with other skills. Other skills rework ideas should be its own, not bcos you change 1 skill so it affect another, no matter how insignificant it was.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[Dhaelos]

Hello people, here is my feedback as a person who plays a descent amount of Ash (27%used on Ash/9% on Ash prime and rising):
I like the marking system it ads game-play where previously there was none. (A game without game-play is not a game)

My notes: Energy cost per mark is too high. Especially when considering that there will always be accidental unwanted marks such as infested maggots and some corpus flying shield units or rollers.

The damage feels/is too low. I've been having level 40-50 units on xini not dying from 3 marks. There is no reason to 3 mark anything when for less that time I can shoot it dead. They are literary dead before i can get off 3 marks :D My average units blade-stormed is about 6(way less than old BS) I don't see a reason not to have a damage buff.

Animation speed fells good when i'm using a fast weapon with prime fury (dual kama prime, glaive prime) Can we have that speed as the base bladestorm speed and not have the ability pigeonhole our weapon choices.

Quality of life notes: Old BS could be used while being knocked down or dragged by enemy which made it a good evade tool. Would be nice if we could have that back on the new one.
Also (this might be asking to much) can we have an increase in bladestorm marking range for all of us long range sniping players :}

Thank you for taking the time to read this, hope you have a nice morning/day/evening/all-nigher.

#AshStillBetterThanLoki Rob!

 

[Soridian]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

REVERSE BLADESTORM

Instead of ash teleporting all over the place stabbing enemies, how about ash teleported the enemies to him to stab?

Never played assassins creed much so unsure what your on about there but the mobs being dragged to ash rather than him going to them is an interesting concept to overcome the headache-y animation you currently have. Though it raises problems on how would they be able to place the enemies properly if you yourself are in a confined area?

[RX-3DR]

As long as it still bypasses armor, it has no right being as effective in controlling a large group as it used to. It is a step in the right direction regardless, removing a crutch for dealing damage with barely any input.

A lot of other Warframes can disable or target a larger amount of enemies but armor can reduce the damage significantly. Go try out any 4th ability on level 50 Grineer, particularly, the heavier troopers and see if you can achieve good energy efficiency per kill on a 4th ability. If all you do is draw comparisons to abilities like Hysteria and Exalted Blade which are supposed to function differently, then there's going to be a lot of questions but does it mean that Blade Storm is weak? No. It has no problems dealing with high armor targets.

In a realistic comparison, the only thing that comes close is Mesa's Peacemakers. However, Mesa's Peacemakers have the drawback of locking you in place and leaving you vulnerable as compared to Blade Storm where you can mark out targets while moving under the effects of Smoke Screen.

On the comparison to damage scaling with enemies past 50, that's more of a scaling fault rather than the ability not being effective. Past those health and armor values, a lot of the gameplay mechanics just fall apart anyways.

The changes reflect best on Ash's nature and design, an Assassin. We're not looking at the fictional "ninja" that western culture adores, capable of slaying millions of people while performing acrobatics. This fits more in line with an actual assassin, taking out high-priority targets with stealth.

 

Even if a thousand of you were to protest on how much you hate it, DE doesn't really look at the forums for results. They see the statistics in-game, just because a thousand of you are upset doesn't mean that everyone is upset and that they are obligated to follow your every demand. Especially if this actually achieves the result that they're looking for, a sharp cut on the Ash use without dropping too steep.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Flandyrll

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

2 minutes ago, Soridian said:

Never played assassins creed much so unsure what your on about there but the mobs being dragged to ash rather than him going to them is an interesting concept to overcome the headache-y animation you currently have. Though it raises problems on how would they be able to place the enemies properly if you yourself are in a confined area?

Or on an uneven ground like stairs...

They will have to make a tight Close quarter finishers (like, performing finishers to more than 1 enemy at once, like dual assassination on AC, or dual takedowns on Batman Arkham Series)

Wtih the uneven ground, they could learn from TENCHU stealth kills, it has a unique way to address animation on an uneven grounds.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

As long as it still bypasses armor, it has no right being as effective in controlling a large group as it used to. It is a step in the right direction regardless, removing a crutch for dealing damage with barely any input.

A lot of other Warframes can disable or target a larger amount of enemies but armor can reduce the damage significantly. Go try out any 4th ability on level 50 Grineer, particularly, the heavier troopers and see if you can achieve good energy efficiency per kill on a 4th ability. If all you do is draw comparisons to abilities like Hysteria and Exalted Blade which are supposed to function differently, then there's going to be a lot of questions but does it mean that Blade Storm is weak? No. It has no problems dealing with high armor targets.

In a realistic comparison, the only thing that comes close is Mesa's Peacemakers. However, Mesa's Peacemakers have the drawback of locking you in place and leaving you vulnerable as compared to Blade Storm where you can mark out targets while moving under the effects of Smoke Screen.

On the comparison to damage scaling with enemies past 50, that's more of a scaling fault rather than the ability not being effective. Past those health and armor values, a lot of the gameplay mechanics just fall apart anyways.

The changes reflect best on Ash's nature and design, an Assassin. We're not looking at the fictional "ninja" that western culture adores, capable of slaying millions of people while performing acrobatics. This fits more in line with an actual assassin, taking out high-priority targets with stealth.

 

Even if a thousand of you were to protest on how much you hate it, DE doesn't really look at the forums for results. They see the statistics in-game, just because a thousand of you are upset doesn't mean that everyone is upset and that they are obligated to follow your every demand. Especially if this actually achieves the result that they're looking for, a sharp cut on the Ash use without dropping too steep.

No reason to use 4, because Ash's 3 was always for high priority targets. 4 was a CC or a (oh sh button). Or if u had a downed ally and u need to kill quickly my ash can do a full BS on console at the momment in 2 sec flat...thats one animation.... then i would revive all my allies.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[StealthyCARNAGE]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Well then enlight me...how are you gonna change BS WITHOUT TOUCHING FT. If you cant, then theres the problem i have been trying to show you.

I have been throwing some BS rework ideas around this thread, none of which have something to do with other skills. Other skills rework ideas should be its own, not bcos you change 1 skill so it affect another, no matter how insignificant it was.

Alright, my absolutely last attempt:

There are currently two large sides to the whole issue. These aren't necessarily the only sides, but these are at least two of them.

One side wants the player removed from the Bladestorm finisher animations (aka removing the "cutscenes"), because it removes player interactivity. The other side wants to keep the animation because they think it looks cool.

Personally, I belong to the group that's absolutely sick of being stuck in a cutscene rather than actually, you know, playing the game. But I can nonetheless acknowledge people liking those animations. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Hence, my suggestion to try and pacify both sides. In other words, removing the player animation from Bladestorm, so people who are sick of the forced inactivity won't have to deal with it anymore. But that would still leave the people who actually like that animation, right? Thus, my idea to move that player animation to another ability, or rather augment, that is functionally the same; Fatal Teleport.

In other words, my suggestion to change the animation for Fatal Teleport is an extra thing, a bonus, and by no means a requirement.

Enlightened enough?

It's a very simple compromise I came up with on the fly because I already posted a full rework of Ash weeks ago. But as it was completely ignored, just like so many other reworks, I didn't think there is much of a point to try and come up with anything particular complex anymore. Hence, my attempt at a simple change that merely addresses some of the main concerns.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

1 minute ago, S.C. said:

~snip~.

How about a toggle button (live gameplay, not from options) for one to keep seeing the animation & 1 to skip the animation? Ofc those who choose to skip will still stuck in place doing ninjutsu hand gestures spells to keep the skill running (lock in place until they can actually move) but on the brightside:

-No animation

-you can still be invulnerable (covered in black smoke & faded form)

-you can observe the battleground around you

See? I didnt touch FT or other skill AT ALL.............

How about you follow my example?

[Soridian]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Or on an uneven ground like stairs...

They will have to make a tight Close quarter finishers (like, performing finishers to more than 1 enemy at once, like dual assassination on AC, or dual takedowns on Batman Arkham Series)

Wtih the uneven ground, they could learn from TENCHU stealth kills, it has a unique way to address animation on an uneven grounds.

Heh, I think they'd just use the usual response for animations for powers on stairs or uneven surfaces....play it as if the surface was flat lol.

in all seriousness though the map limitations probably would rule out teleporting groups of mobs to yourself and is why there isn't a power like that already.

Personally I don't see why the Bladestorm animation can't just be a simplified and quicker animation such as a slash to the stomach or stab to the chest or back only and focus on the smoothness of the animation rather than the cool factor of 'i'ma stab this guy repeatedly in the head! Ye!!!!!' 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Soridian