Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Kuroyamimaoh]

Personally, I really like the rework for smokescreen and also teleport, but I feel that Ash are now less efficient in killings mobs. Yes, for some people it may be fun while marking enemies that you want to kill. Yeah, I feel that it wasn't that bad if there are not much enemies. But when I am playing high level excavation, defense, interception or survival missions, Blade Storm are basically useless. When there are lot's mobs, and you still have to mark your target and then press 4 again to kill, it's slow, very slow. I can kill the mobs faster by using melee or primary weapons, so now what is the point of casting Blade Storm while it is so slow? Even Ember's World on Fire have higher dps now even though the damage is not that high.

Saryn used to be a press 4 to win frame like Ash, I like the rework because it is still quite efficient in killing mobs just that you need to combo your skills together. However for Ash, meh, not much synergy with his others skills so I wouldn't say this rework is very good. Mesa is dead, now Ash is half dead I would say.

 

Below will be my suggestions for Ash rework:

1 - Shuriken

- Shuriken should be changed to a trigger ability, once it's triggered, you can't use your weapons but your attacks will become throwing shurikens instead.

- Need to aim just like using primary or secondary weapons instead of auto - targeting.

- Damage and attack speed will be affected by secondary weapons. (Basically like Excalibur's Exalted Blade and Valkyr's Hysteria)

- Consume energy per throw

- Attack is silent

 

2 - Smoke Screen

- I really satisfied with the smoke screen changes, but I think can make it even better. Why don't increase the damage of Shuriken and Blade Storm while smoke screen is in effect?

 

3 - Teleport

- Instead of targeting any objects with health bar, I think can make it a bit like the teleport of Reaper in Overwatch. You mark a place, and teleport to it. Basically can teleport to anywhere. Seems a bit OP but since you need to mark or aim the place 1st, it's not a panic button or whatever.

4 - Blade Storm

- I feel that it's fun using the new Blade Storm, but I still prefer the old one in terms of speed and efficiency. Need to mark enemies before casting the ability should be removed.

- Like old Blade Storm, you still need to aim and when you cast it you will attack every enemies in the area of the aimed target.

- Once it's cast, directional key indicators will appear and you must enter W, A, S, D depending on the indicator. So it's basically like combo in cinematic quest of some other games. Once you enter the wrong one, the attacks stop immediately.

- Duration of the skill will affected by duration mods, so not everyone will just focus on building damage only. Number of attacks are unlimited, depending on how much combos you can make during the ultimate. 

- In this case, the camera while using the skill can be remain since you have to focus on entering the combos, who cares about the animation anyway?

- I believe these changes will make Ash's ult become more interactive instead of press 4 to win skill. If you are good, you attack more and faster, if you are bad well, the ult will be basically useless. Or maybe can add minimum attacks, so even if you screwed up or maybe really bad, you will still attack maybe 4 or 5 times for the duration of the ult.

- Not that detail but I believe this is a good concept.

[DEATHLOK]

21 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

But you said it yourself, it was rather OP correct?

At low levels. The same could be said for a number of other frames. They appear godlike against low levels.

[Entharias]

To be honest this rework didn't affect me at all, i mostly go full melee mode and build my frames around my melee weapons, so i'm not too disappointed, but still am.
I think that the new marking effects are a really sweet candy for the eyes, but mechanically speaking there are 0 reasons to use bladestorm at its current state.

As soon as i saw the new effects when in marking mode, i thought about something cool, so what if Ash instead of marking and then bladestorming, he instead gains passive boosts to his stats? i remember some animes in which characters used powers to focus on specific 'body tasks' like increase hearing, but decrease sight etc, so i think Ash could use something similar, like: Ash uses it's 4th ability (toggle, so it drains energy per second), he loses the ability to see colors (black and white ftw) but gains high perception on enemies + some physical enhancements (faster speed, higher jumps/bullet jumps, a bit more damage, stuff like that)

^ This is a personal idea.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Nakrast

[Tengu_Bruxo]

This video, in my opinion really expresses the issues with the update, over all the re-work was pretty good, just didn't go far enough.

 

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

29 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

To be honest this rework didn't affect me at all, i mostly go full melee mode and build my frames around my melee weapons, so i'm not too disappointed, but still am.
I think that the new marking effects are a really sweet candy for the eyes, but mechanically speaking there are 0 reasons to use bladestorm at its current state.

As soon as i saw the new effects when in marking mode, i thought about something cool, so what if Ash instead of marking and then bladestorming, he instead gains passive boosts to his stats? i remember some animes in which characters used powers to focus on specific 'body tasks' like increase hearing, but decrease sight etc, so i think Ash could use something similar, like: Ash uses it's 4th ability (toggle, so it drains energy per second), he loses the ability to see colors (black and white ftw) but gains high perception on enemies + some physical enhancements (faster speed, higher jumps/bullet jumps, a bit more damage, stuff like that)

^ This is a personal idea.

So this completely ditches blade storm altogether? I don't know if I like that. The skill/ability you describe is really cool though, I like. Just... don't know how much better than Blade Storm.

Here's an idea to add to your idea :P Attacking enemies insta-tps on them while in this mode. The energy drain is slow since it adds speed and stuff like you said, but whilst attacking drains more like channelling. This way we kinda get a different blade storm version.

Smoke screen can be used as synergy instead of decreasing energy to increasing damage.

I'm happy with blade storm atm, but if we are going in directions of saying ideas for completely new skills to replace it, your idea just a little revamped would be cool I think.

I actually almost had this during a game :P There was some load on the server, and I had some pauses between Blade Storm attacks on my enemies. You know, when you can walk around but blade storm is still working? Not knowing, I turned Blade Storm Marking on again. After that, every time I pressed the melee button I instantly attacked the target I was looking at, regardless of distance. I was in other words constantly in Marking mode, and my melee would perform a mini blade storm on single target I wanted to attack. I had some fun with the bug since I would, and I was using it for all enemies. lol. Each melee attack activated blade storm >.< (not 4, but proper melee).

I guess your idea reminded me of that and triggered my idea in the end :P It was actually pretty cool.

[Entharias]

2 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

So this completely ditches blade storm altogether? I don't know if I like that. The skill/ability you describe is really cool though, I like. Just... don't know how much better than Blade Storm.

Here's an idea to add to your idea :P Attacking enemies insta-tps on them while in this mode. The energy drain is slow since it adds speed and stuff like you said, but whilst attacking drains more like channelling. This way we kinda get a different blade storm version.

Smoke screen can be used as synergy instead of decreasing energy to increasing damage.

That would be a good addiction, totally would make the whole skill feel way more epic and interactive.

[UrielColtan]

2 hours ago, Kuroyamimaoh said:

Personally, I really like the rework for smokescreen and also teleport, but I feel that Ash are now less efficient in killings mobs. Yes, for some people it may be fun while marking enemies that you want to kill. Yeah, I feel that it wasn't that bad if there are not much enemies. But when I am playing high level excavation, defense, interception or survival missions, Blade Storm are basically useless. When there are lot's mobs, and you still have to mark your target and then press 4 again to kill, it's slow, very slow. I can kill the mobs faster by using melee or primary weapons, so now what is the point of casting Blade Storm while it is so slow? Even Ember's World on Fire have higher dps now even though the damage is not that high.

Saryn used to be a press 4 to win frame like Ash, I like the rework because it is still quite efficient in killing mobs just that you need to combo your skills together. However for Ash, meh, not much synergy with his others skills so I wouldn't say this rework is very good. Mesa is dead, now Ash is half dead I would say.

 

Below will be my suggestions for Ash rework:

1 - Shuriken

- Shuriken should be changed to a trigger ability, once it's triggered, you can't use your weapons but your attacks will become throwing shurikens instead.

- Need to aim just like using primary or secondary weapons instead of auto - targeting.

- Damage and attack speed will be affected by secondary weapons. (Basically like Excalibur's Exalted Blade and Valkyr's Hysteria)

- Consume energy per throw

- Attack is silent

 

2 - Smoke Screen

- I really satisfied with the smoke screen changes, but I think can make it even better. Why don't increase the damage of Shuriken and Blade Storm while smoke screen is in effect?

 

3 - Teleport

- Instead of targeting any objects with health bar, I think can make it a bit like the teleport of Reaper in Overwatch. You mark a place, and teleport to it. Basically can teleport to anywhere. Seems a bit OP but since you need to mark or aim the place 1st, it's not a panic button or whatever.

4 - Blade Storm

- I feel that it's fun using the new Blade Storm, but I still prefer the old one in terms of speed and efficiency. Need to mark enemies before casting the ability should be removed.

- Like old Blade Storm, you still need to aim and when you cast it you will attack every enemies in the area of the aimed target.

- Once it's cast, directional key indicators will appear and you must enter W, A, S, D depending on the indicator. So it's basically like combo in cinematic quest of some other games. Once you enter the wrong one, the attacks stop immediately.

- Duration of the skill will affected by duration mods, so not everyone will just focus on building damage only. Number of attacks are unlimited, depending on how much combos you can make during the ultimate. 

- In this case, the camera while using the skill can be remain since you have to focus on entering the combos, who cares about the animation anyway?

- I believe these changes will make Ash's ult become more interactive instead of press 4 to win skill. If you are good, you attack more and faster, if you are bad well, the ult will be basically useless. Or maybe can add minimum attacks, so even if you screwed up or maybe really bad, you will still attack maybe 4 or 5 times for the duration of the ult.

- Not that detail but I believe this is a good concept.

Don't  see why Ash's two measely shurikens should be nerfed in targeting. Nyx, Excal or Atlas have their targeting, and Nyx throws more bolts than Ash does shurikens, Excal has knockdown utility and counter bonus, and Atlas honestly does more damage and is effected by melee mods. I also don't see why Ash should lose what little utility he has by locking off his use of weapons when using them. One of the best features of  Shurikens is the ability to use them while reloading and one of the most practical uses of Ash, is with melee. Locking this stuff off is silly. No other frame's basic projectile completely locks off their access of weapons.

 

Ash's Shurikens are already silent and also already consume energy with each throw. Do you even play Ash much? If anything the energy consumption needs to be lessened with each throw, as is the case with the likes of Atlas' 1. 

 

Agreed on suggestions for smokescreen but I think the stagger effect from casting it should be continuous while in smokesceeen as well.

I don't see how that suggestion for Teleport is any more OP than Nova's Wormhole or Nezha's ring teleport. Honestly these and the void dash that the Operators have would have been a better direction for Ash's teleport.

Turning Bladestorm into QTE time is just another hindering direction and will just make bladestorm take longer if anything. I also don't find QTEs fun, and no other ult works in such a needless and meticulous way.

Get rid of the canned animation in general. I'd more prefer a sort of exalted state for Ash, accompanied by a limited number of his clones.

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

1 hour ago, Tuxie said:

I gave it a try and it was far worse than it looked. I wasn't surprised at all.

Hmmm... Thats what I was saying some posts back, but apparently "I didn't know how to build Blade Storm right". Anyway. I have barely ever mained Blade Storm. I actually find I use it more now than before. Maybe because its still new? Who knows.

 

edit- crap... wrong quote. derp?!

Edited November 30, 2016 by HazaRD-WARRIOR

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

54 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

At low levels. The same could be said for a number of other frames. They appear godlike against low levels.

Hmmm... Thats what I was saying some posts back, but apparently "I didn't know how to build Blade Storm right". Anyway. I have barely ever mained Blade Storm. I actually find I use it more now than before. Maybe because its still new? Who knows.

(Second time's a charm)

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

I'd hardly call it a break, its a small recollection. I am interested in the flow as well. And Blade Storm animation has no issues except for when it has targeted the entire map and then some. Hence, the rework fixed that won't you agree?

I came to that assumption, perhaps wrongfully so, because the people that experience this "inactive boring mechanic" more are usually the people that use nothing but Blade Storm. I am also talking about all his other skills because if anyone bothered in my opinion to play Ash to his full potential, they would hardly find themselves bored by Blade Storm. That is what I am saying.

The old animation I agree was quite long and tiresome at times. More so when there is server lag though. Usually it is fast. This is an issue indeed, at times it would take a whole 2 seconds to go from one target to the next. This is not the norm. The norm is a fast attack that does not last that long. They had even got rid of boss targeting at a point.

If you are talking about this specific thing (that whole lag issue etc) then yes, I can agree to that. It is indeed game breaking and I too wanted to eat my keyboard from the impatience it brought upon me whilst sitting there through it.

Again, I find this is fixed now though. So what are we talking about again? lol

Clearly I don't agree otherwise I wouldn't be having this discussion right now, all the change did was trim down on the time spent in the animation, but that wasn't what most people were asking for, they wanted a full purge not a downscale, and even now you can get locked into some less than preferably animation loops. 

And yes your assumption was wrongfully made, but that's what you should expect when you try to paint people with such broad strokes. I'm sorry if the people you've encountered appear to be hypocritical with their views, but that doesn't equate to the whole sharing those same sentiments. Fair enough with the playstyles however, though I don't think the expectations for a skill in warframe is that it will only be pleasant if you play it in a particular way.

Also why are you calling it the old animation as if we don't still have it presently, perhaps we no longer have to deal with it looping the way it used to on bulkier targets, but it still the same animation, just with as I mentioned before, some minor trimming. This is also not an issue of lag, nor do I see why you would assume such, any reasonable person can tell the difference between a skill preforming poorly because of how it is made and preforming poorly because of connection issues. This skill simply puts a player on idle for too long under natural circumstances, or at least that is how a good many feel including myself. 

Of course you can feel differently about that, but none the less there are people who feel it's too long and that isn't an invalid view either. Personally I feel the cinematic sequences for Bladestorm are unnecessary and make for a less fulfilling skill, so they should be removed, but for you I want to know, albeit being content with the current rendition of the skill, would it really make that much of a negative impact of you if they were removed fully or not? Or do you value those small recollections that much? 

[UrielColtan]

It did not even trim down on time spent in the animation, it punishes being good at targeting, with long cutscenes. It didn't even fix the continuous humping of Ancients.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

What's the point of all this? 45 pages and counting

The rework has been done

for those who like it, good for you, hope you would still be able to like it on lvl 100 missions in sorties specially survivor

for those who did not like the rework (including myself), let's just hope that DE realizes that the rework was a mess.

PS: and if you are upset from those who support the rework, spam the map with mirage and the synoid :XD lol

 Or bring Ash to the fight with the synoid, the kulstar and steal their kills  again :XD

[Entharias]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

What's the point of all this? 45 pages and counting

The rework has been done

The DE themselfs asked for direct feedback after we played Ash.

[UrielColtan]

19 hours ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

What's the point of all this? 45 pages and counting

The rework has been done

for those who like it, good for you, hope you would still be able to like it on lvl 100 missions in sorties specially survivor

for those who did not like the rework (including myself), let's just hope that DE realizes that the rework was a mess.

PS: and if you are upset from those who support the rework, spam the map with mirage and the synoid :XD lol

 Or bring Ash to the fight with the synoid, the kulstar and steal their kills  again :XD

The point is that this is a crowd sourced game and DE asked for feedback, as validated by DEDanielle. We have no need for weak, defeatist positions, only suggestions for improvement. Perhaps modern indoctrination has conditioned you to always take what you get from companies, but effectiveness of constructive criticism and suggestion are for the intention of audience/customer demands inevitably being met. Saying nothing presents the presumption of acceptance and no further improvement. When the likes of vacuum was nerfed, people voiced their disapproval, and they changed the bad decision. That's what this is about.

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Tengu_Bruxo said:

~snip~

 

that video highlights the one thing i was hoping they would change about bladestorm but they didnt and his solution to it should definitely be taken under consideration.

people should stop trying to replace preferred with main. thanks.

Edited November 30, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[UrielColtan]

7 hours ago, OTF4L said:

Let me start by saying I think this is one of the best games there are...period.  Free or not.  I admire DE for the ingenuity and creativity they have poured into this game.  There are soo many endearing features and facets to how you can play this game that im not even sure DE is aware of them all.  As a 30+ year vetran of systems engineering I have worked on project management, software development and Networking. I only say that to say I recognize that the schedule in which DE rolls out these patches and new content is staggering and very impressive by any standard!!  

Now my thoughts on changes to ASH.  It is not as much of a individual complaint that I have as much as it is a systematic complaint.

Balance isn't necessarily having every single frame capable of killing or handling every single mission and boss type.

Heres the thing about weapons and such.  The "Mastery Fodder" is just as necessary as the "OP God Gear".  Why? Well You would not be able to identify one without the others existence!!

I think one should be careful not to end up with a game of "Skins" (All the weapons and frames look different but all do the same amount of damage) instead of special unique weapons and war frames.

I am also concerned that some of the mechanics may become too complicated for my younger children.  It is already a challenge for them to use and master the current state of mechanics and content but it is achievable for them and I like that.

Why not let us have a few OP frames and weapons? We eventually get tired of crushing everything with an OP setup and thats when you try others and use your OP as the goto when things get tough.  

I view my Warframes and weapons and companions as "Tools".  I can obviously use a nuclear missile to blow up a gopher hole and it will get the job done but it would also be boring and a waste of power.  However this does not mean that a nuclear missile does not have a place in the arsenal.  A good toolbox has the right tool for each job.  That is how I think of my warframe aresenal.

I wont look in my toolbox and say to myself wow that was too easy to do this job with this tool. If I really am excited about the tool I will find a job that is a challenge for it.  Why not increase the difficulty of the content instead of nerfing the "Tools"?

I know it is more time consuming and difficult to adapt content than it is to adapt gear, but if you really want to be creative it might be interesting to try creating content and mechanics that make something that is considered "OP" challenging. instead of just "wacking" it into conformity...lol

For competitive purposes why not make scores in leader boards include which frame and weapon were used?  Or place specific mechanics into compettitive content that thwarts "OP gear".  I dont know if this is done already but my point is just that I hope DE would leave us a few "Point and Click" weapons and frames because there are some of us adults and also some kids that still enjoy just mindlessly going into a map and destroying everything.  

Finally For those who dont like the above mentioned type of game play I ask: "Is it not possible to simply use different frames and weapons than the ones you deem "Too Easy"."

"The squeaky wheel gets the oil" but the satisfied people often get overlooked cause they dont complain.

I started playing this game 1 year ago and I was very happy to find a game that could be as complicated or as simple as I wanted it to be, and that I could play with my 9 yr old , 13, 17, and adult children.   I am all about change and all about growth but it is my fondest wish that the "spirit" of the game I started playing remains throughout all of the growth and changes.

Should your young children be playing this content anyway? It is technically rated M.

The gameplay is already simplistic enough as is.  I feel games were less hand holding back when I was a child.

Dumbing things down is the modern Bioware "awesome button" way. The remove all features from Sims to lessen confusion EA way, or press x to pay respects Activision way, or the easy fatality WB way.

I'd prefer most games not go down that road.

I agree with you though on frames and weapons being distinguished. Though do I especially think each frame should have some full back to at the very least get through each mission, even if not the best at the particular type. Mandatory frames bothers me more than mandatory mods does DESteve in that one old stream.

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[(XBOX)Oussii]

52 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

The DE themselfs asked for direct feedback after we played Ash.

I think by now DE knows that a lot of users agree on the rework, and a lot also disagree

What i am certain of is that this rework was a disappointment for both parties

- To those who are in favor: the cut scene and the animation is still there which was the original main point of the objection

- To those who are against: they don't like the fact of marking and the complication with it.

all we can hope now is a revision of this rework which i don't see it coming thru in the near future.

[UrielColtan]

Your needless trivialization is merely a reflection of your own weak will. Don't impose your particulars on to everyone else. DE can speak and react for themselves, as can the players. This has gone so many pages because there are a lot of players and feedback was asked and directed here.

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[(XBOX)Oussii]

7 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Your needless trivialization is merely a reflection of your own weak will. Don't impose your particulars on to everyone else. DE can speak and react for themselves, as can the players.

Is this comment for me?

I hope not

[UrielColtan]

It certainly is. You don't even seem to get what this board is for or who the TC is.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

Well my friend i don't see where and how you came up with the idea of weak will.

You don't know me so you can't judge me

All i said there are 2 sides,, with and against the rework.

and both sides agree that the main problem is still there with the animation and the cut scene of BS

So i really did not get you about that weak will

Anyways, with all my respect to you and to your opinion about what i said.. I DON'T simply care.

you have your opinion, i do have mine

Have a nice day man

[UrielColtan]

You didn't even put the people for or against in the same category, in regard to the animation, contrary to your claim here. Your overly simplistic trivialization serves no use either. You also want to dictate what DE knows or will or won't change. Why can you speak for others yet take offense at the concept of it being done to you? How is it that you are so oblivious to the fact that this is DE's topic? If they "got it" and don't care for anymore feedback on something that just came out over the weekend, then the topic would be closed.  If you don't care then why come here? 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[YUNoJump]

Teleport onto ziplines? 

Got nothing else to say really, I think it sounds cool.

[Iceyspy]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Teleport onto ziplines? 

Got nothing else to say really, I think it sounds cool.

I second that.

 

Also, maybe allow teleportation to pickups & terminals? 

[Zareek]

Actually sounds like a cool idea. +1 !