Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

So, Ash rework has been around a couple of weeks and I know big changes won't happen to the frame. But can we have Rising Storm augment tweaked?

Right now it gives 3s combo counter, which really doesn't justify a mod slot, specially considering it is affected by Body Count/Drifting Contact.

My suggestion for it:

Make each attack of Blade Storm add 4/5/6/7 hits to the combo counter instead of 1.

Who's with me?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

38 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

So, Ash rework has been around a couple of weeks and I know big changes won't happen to the frame. But can we have Rising Storm augment tweaked?

Right now it gives 3s combo counter, which really doesn't justify a mod slot, specially considering it is affected by Body Count/Drifting Contact.

My suggestion for it:

Make each attack of Blade Storm add 4/5/6/7 hits to the combo counter instead of 1.

Who's with me?

I think it should ad a full combo counter for every marked target attacked x1 x2 x3 x4 now were talkin..

Edited December 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[-BM-Mitz]

57 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

4/5/6/7

Seems WAY too good to me.

18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

I think it should ad a full combo counter for every marked target attacked x1 x2 x3 x4 now were talkin..

That's even more broken xD

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

Seems WAY too good to me.

That's even more broken xD

He needs it, 235 power strength BS will not kill a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner with 3 marks.

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

Seems WAY too good to me.

Well, it would apply only to Ash attacks, not his clone's.

5 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

That's even more broken xD

Well, I agree on that.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

He needs it, 235 power strength BS will not kill a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner with 3 marks.

I kill lvl 100 corrupted heavies with a single mark, provided they aren't protected by an ancient healer. I just rack up a good combo counter with my melee weapon.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Edited December 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

just rack up a good combo counter with my melee weapon.

That's the problem, no point in BS because my melee build would kill them. might as well 3 and be done with it actually. No insentive to BS.

Edited December 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Seryin]

I am trying my best to adapt to this new bladestorm. I have come to accept this as simply a nerf rather than a rework. Makes more sense to me.

...But I really feel like this added "Marking Mode" is still quite an ability-breaking drawback. It is a complete nuisance, taking the annoyance of the unchanged locked animation and doubling it. I really wish some sort of improvement or attention would be given specifically to that "marking" part. Perhaps the ability would feel worth its cost if Ash teleported into the shadows, or simply cast smokescreen, during "Mark Mode." This way Bladestorm could regain its previous incredible panic usage at perhaps the cost of a timer when marking, or even converting the move into a channeled effect?

It would still be nerfed, but viable at hard difficulties as well...

[(XBOX)Oussii]

2 minutes ago, Seryin said:

I am trying my best to adapt to this new bladestorm. I have come to accept this as simply a nerf rather than a rework. Makes more sense to me.

...But I really feel like this added "Marking Mode" is still quite an ability-breaking drawback. It is a complete nuisance, taking the annoyance of the unchanged locked animation and doubling it. I really wish some sort of improvement or attention would be given specifically to that "marking" part. Perhaps the ability would feel worth its cost if Ash teleported into the shadows, or simply cast smokescreen, during "Mark Mode." This way Bladestorm could regain its previous incredible panic usage at perhaps the cost of a timer when marking, or even converting the move into a channeled effect?

It would still be nerfed, but viable at hard difficulties as well...

Here is you answer:

 

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

That's the problem, no point in BS because my melee build would kill them. might as well 3 and be done with it actually. No insentive to BS.

False, BS is very powerful. Thing is, it's supposed to be used in tandem with a melee weapon, both feeding the counter, my idea of Rising Storm is to further fuel that synergy in a meaningful way without making it utterly broken (like what you proposed) or pointless (like current Rising Storm), make the augment worth it's slot.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

to be used in tandem with a melee weapon, both feeding the counter

but his 2, then Galatine prime and his 3 = the room is dead. Again no insitive to BS.

Edited December 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Correct, Or his 2, his 1 (seek shuriken aug) Galatine and his 3, again no insitive to BS. 

You are probably using him wrong then, well, update released yesterday so it's understandable. Blade Storm has become a better ability and more powerful and versatile than it was in the past. Shuriken is still the oddball that's not that useful outside of it's augment on very  specific scenarioss, and Fatal Teleport is pretty much required to make Teleport good in the first place. BS is good without augment, the whole point of this thread is that the augment doesn't justify it's slot because of how weak it is.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

You are probably using him wrong then, well, update released yesterday so it's understandable. Blade Storm has become a better ability and more powerful and versatile than it was in the past. Shuriken is still the oddball that's not that useful outside of it's augment on very  specific scenarioss, and Fatal Teleport is pretty much required to make Teleport good in the first place. BS is good without augment, the whole point of this thread is that the augment doesn't justify it's slot because of how weak it is.

To much cheese, doesn't fix the major issues. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[DageWasTaken]

Just throwing in my two cents on the matter. For the record, I've never played Ash pre-rework. I've only been playing for about a month and Ash Prime was building in my Foundry a day before his rework, lol.

Furthermore, I'm aware of what Ash was before the rework, and the changes are minor but are quality of life changes.

Anyway, I can say the Smoke Screen change is absolutely amazing. It makes his ability very fluid and suits him as a ninja frame. (well, i guess they're all ninjas)

As for his Teleport; this is my favorite ability. I love zipping around the map and taking out foes. However, there are times that it feels clunky when playing in a group. Sometimes I zip to my ally instead of teleporting to my intended target. Just sometimes, but this ability is pretty good as it is.

Finally, for the most controversial ability is Blade Storm. The change, again, is pretty minor. It's basically the old Blade Storm but with extra steps. There are a lot of problems with the ability. I'll evaluate:

1) Thw difference between the old and new Blade Storm is you can plan ahead, or at least I think that's the philosophy behind it. Since you can now choose how many targets you can kill, it gives you an opportunity to decide how long you want to stay invulnerable. Again, I'm not sure if that's the philosophy behind the decision made for this change. The problem is; in an incredibly fast-paced and dynamic game as Warframe, you can't really plan ahead. Many people have said this but if an objective is under attack or your ally drops, you can't do anything about it. I've experienced this many times over.

2) The most effective way of marking a large chunk of enemies is by finding a good vantage point (most of the time a corner) and then spazzing your pass back and forth before unleashing the ability. It is the best way to mark many opponents, but it's not intended I presume, because it feels... out of place for a game like Warframe.

3) I don't understand WHY the Smoke Screen + Blade Storm synergy exists. I don't understand why the discounted energy is coupled along with the smoke screen. My current Ash Build doesn't focus on duration, rather I built it towards efficiency and power strength. My duration is at 90+% I think, sommy Smoke Screen only lasts for about 7 seconds. Even then, I can mark an entire room(refer to number 2) with about 4 seconds left. The only reason I use smoke screen is for the discount energy. I believe the design was intended for players to use smoke screen and then mark targets strategically. But in a game where EVERYTHING that moves is an enemy, priority of targets isn't a big deal. You WILL mark everything. Also, in an aesthetic sense, when you pop smoke screen and use blade storm, the cutscene looks weird, since your enemies are dying to dust particles.

Solution;

I'm not sure if this has been suggested, but why can't the clones attack alongside Ash? By this, I mean; if I target nine opponents, can't Ash attack 3 and the other two attack 3 of their own. This will drastically cut the time Ash spends suspended from play, but also keep the cutscene. Or rather, if you want to keep the Smoke Screen/Blade Storm synergy, make it so the above statement only happnes if you've used Smoke Screen before pulling the trigger. This way you keep both versions.

As for the second problem I mentioned, I guess that's up to the player if he wants to just spaz his mouse back and forth.

Ash still remains as one of my favorite frames alongside Frost, and I hope some changes people have mentioned will be at least considered.

EDIT: I forgot to menon but Ash's shurikens act weirdly sometimes. Evn if I point towards a Corpus Camera in front of me, the shurikens go completely into other targets. Dunno if it's a bug or it prioritizes organisms more than camers.

Edited December 11, 2016 by DageWasTaken

[(PSN)MelodiousMelody]

I'm not sure what I think about this rework, I know one thing for sure though, I'm getting far more disoriented and onset of motion sickness from frantically trying to mark my targets. It's got bad enough for me that I will be forcing myself to look into a new build, and it's a shame because I was quite happy with my current build.
:(

I don't mind the rework as much when I am soloing, as I am not trying to sift through the typical onslaught of explosions, fire, shrapnel effects (to include disorientation with the camera) when I play with others. In addition, I find myself incapable of targeting an adequate amount of targets before my team decimates everything within the field, rendering my attempt to use the ability pointless. I end up spending a majority of my time trying to mark rather than contributing to the team.

This is my perspective as a (mostly) melee user.

Personally, I feel the rework is fine for solo, but for team play my eyes can't keep up targeting foes with the amount of Micheal Bay-esque super effects coupled with my constantly trying to re-position the camera in order to see through said effects.

Lastly, I do like the fact that teammates can kill off targets now apparently.

 

[(PSN)Crazy_Mr_J]

Hi,

I've little things to says about this rework.

The 4th's rework (Blade Storm) is much more interesting and equilibrate now. All noobs who just spams the 4th will not use Ash anymore, and for others players (like me) who likes Ash and wants the real Space Ninja since the beginning of time, with use of Ash only in Def or Mob Def in Sorties (for fast sorties because previously Ash is so bad), i'm really happy, because the 4th is more hard to use but much more fun to use, so it's a better way for Ash now. Refund of energy when marked ennemies are killed before 4th activation is a good thing, because a lot of times ennemies are killed by our allies before 4th reactivation. The problem, when we build Ash on the 4th is the 2nd power (Smoke Screen), because we have not enough invisibility time (little more 8 seconds for my build), so Arcanes Trickery are really necessaries for the 4th (i've 20, 10 in the Syandana and 10 in the Helmet), and i think this isn't a good thing, because i always must activate the 2nd power when i'ven't the Trickery invisibility, so the 2nd power (Smoke Screen) need a real rework.

My idea about the Smoke Screen rework : the actual changes (Smoke Screen can now be cast while running (no lower body movement lock) and Smoke Screen can now be cast while in-air!) are really greats, but this power really need some other changes on the smoke screen effect and duration (for 4th utility and for create a good 2nd power build for Spy or Rescue missions, because, actually, when you maximized on Duration for the 2nd it's only 22.56 secs).

For me :

1) by default, include in the smoke screen power, allow us to reactivate it each time we wants (if we have enough energy for...), for example reactivate it near an ally.

2) changed the duration at each level of this 2nd power (for each level, it's actually 2/4/6/8s but it's too less ; 3/6/9/12s can be much more interesting for Ash 2nd power, because max duration with this changed can be 33.84 secs)

3) the effect of the Syndicate augment mod for Smoke Screen (smoke for allies too) must be include by default in the Smoke Screen and buffed at 12sec at max rank like the base duration of the 2nd power at max level

4) with my suggestion to add the actual Syndicate augment mod effect in the 2nd power, this augment mod must be changed too, for, in my idea, give to the 2nd power more Duration on the invisibility (for Ash only, the real space ninja !!!)

Ranks for the augment mod : if Ash is invisible with smoke cloud, adds +1 / 2 / 3 / 4s to the invisibility, for each ennemy killed with a finisher. This augment mod have his values modified by Ash's power duration. Ex : If Ash have 100% power duration, he gains +1 / 2 / 3 / 4s for each ennemy killed with a finisher. If Ash have 50% power duration, he gains +0.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 2s for each ennemy killed with a finisher. If Ash have 282% power duration (the maximum), he gains +2.82 / 5.64 / 8.46 / 11.28s for each ennemies killed with a finisher.)

My suggestion

PS : sorry for my bad English (this language isn't my mother language), but i want help, so i've no other choice to write in English...

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by (PS4)Crazy_Mr_J
Some changes for the Syndicat Augment mod

[(PSN)thegreatone12208]

Well if you are going to make a change to bladestorm like that at least keep it to where he attacks enemy that's in 25 meter radius or between 10 to 25 meters away with the chance to increase the range from mods 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

He needs it, 235 power strength BS will not kill a lvl 100 corrupted heavy gunner with 3 marks.

which is why i just use fatal teleport and a hammer (x6 execution damage)

[Calvyr]

It's been a little while since I played Ash, and it took me a little time after his rework to get to actually trying it out, but over the last few days I've been playing him a lot more and I have to say that I'm really happy with the changes. The removal of the lower body lock on Smoke Screen is HUGE! That alone makes Ash way more playable and I actually build duration now to use Smoke Screen more. Previously, I always built around Fatal Teleport (never liked Bladestorm much, as I'm not a fan of lazy mechanics that let me clear rooms in a single button press). And the ability to mark targets with Bladestorm is way more interactive and actually feels like I'm doing something instead of just watching a cutscene. Now, I don't think it's perfect, and while it's cool, the Bladestorm cinematic can get a little intrusive to gameplay. However, it's still a vast improvement over what it used to be, so I'm happy. I'd also like to see some improvement to Shuriken, since it's kind of "blah". It's certainly not useless, but it feels a little boring compared to his other skills.

I still use Loki or Ivara for most of my spy missions, as they lend themselves to a complete stealth run a little better. I play Ash more as what I call a "havoc causing ninja" that's consistently popping in and out of stealth, moving all over the place and keeping the enemy confused and off-balance. It's a very fast and exciting playstyle. So thank you, DE, for improving a frame that I always enjoyed, but didn't exactly play a lot. I see myself spending a lot more time playing Ash now.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Calvyr

[Dragazer]

20 minutes ago, Calvyr said:

It's been a little while since I played Ash, and it took me a little time after his rework to get to actually trying it out, but over the last few days I've been playing him a lot more and I have to say that I'm really happy with the changes. The removal of the lower body lock on Smoke Screen is HUGE! That alone makes Ash way more playable and I actually build duration now to use Smoke Screen more. Previously, I always built around Fatal Teleport (never liked Bladestorm much, as I'm not a fan of lazy mechanics that let me clear rooms in a single button press). And the ability to mark targets with Bladestorm is way more interactive and actually feels like I'm doing something instead of just watching a cutscene. Now, I don't think it's perfect, and while it's cool, the Bladestorm cinematic can get a little intrusive to gameplay. However, it's still a vast improvement over what it used to be, so I'm happy. I'd also like to see some improvement to Shuriken, since it's kind of "blah". It's certainly not useless, but it feels a little boring compared to his other skills.

 

Except for the fact the same exact reused cut scenes are still there. but now its just a clunky targeting mechanic before the cut-scene.

Enemies are still invulnerable while being attacked

Plus not to mention the huge nerf to energy efficiency to top it off:

Old Blade storm: 100 energy for 18 targets, targets were attacked until killed

Now: 270 energy for 18 targets or 215 with smokescreen, targets can only be attacked 3 times max with each mark costing 15 or 10 energy.

 

This rework accomplished absolutely nothing for Blade storm, none of the problems were fixed, just straight up nerfs. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/653910748817719296

Feels like the Devs were just too lazy to actually put in the work for a new ability, and just reused the same animations  to sell the skin

Edited December 11, 2016 by Dragazer

[WastedAlmond]

Ash is in a pretty good place currently, but bladestorm needs more attention in my opinion.

The bladestorm rework was a (small =P) step in the right direction, it still feels like I'm an onlooker. Not sure if someone already suggested something similar, but here goes my suggestion.

I think bladestorm would be much cooler and more fun if it functioned something like this:

1. You activate the skill, it primes your bladestorm (Ash unsheathes his armblades)

2. Aim at enemy and left click to attack, each attack would cost 15 energy for example (Ash teleports to enemy and attacks them, attacks would use existing bladestorm animations)

3. After attack Ash disappears in a puff of smoke (invisible, but stationary) and you have X seconds to attack again, at this point you could do 3 things:

4.1 Right click to attack the same enemy again (15 energy)

4.2 Aim at and left click another enemy to teleport to them and attack, repeating step 3 (15 energy)

4.3 Wait X seconds or press 4 (bladestorm key) to stop bladestormin'

This would allow the player to directly control bladestorm AND would make it more engaging and fun while opening up some new tactics. You could for example focus on a single target and pour your energy pool into just pummeling them. Or you could use your attacks to chain teleport relatively fast from enemy to enemy to cover distances (bladestorm animations would keep it balanced mobility wise). Or you could prioritize enemies on the fly while executing your bladestorm, overall this would focus on bringing more player engagement and skill into play.

If the devs are happy with the current bladestorm, then this could be an augment mod.

[Calvyr]

25 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Except for the fact the same exact reused cut scenes are still there. but now its just a clunky targeting mechanic before the cut-scene.

Enemies are still invulnerable while being attacked

Plus not to mention the huge nerf to energy efficiency to top it off:

Old Blade storm: 100 energy for 18 targets, targets were attacked until killed

Now: 270 energy for 18 targets or 215 with smokescreen, targets can only be attacked 3 times max with each mark costing 15 or 10 energy.

 

This rework accomplished absolutely nothing for Blade storm, none of the problems were fixed, just straight up nerfs. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/653910748817719296

Feels like the Devs were just too lazy to actually put in the work for a new ability, and just reused the same animations  to sell the skin

As I said in my post, the cutscene animation is a little intrusive, but I can live with it. As far as your other comments, the enemies that are marked are actually not invulnerable, they can still be killed by squadmates, and you'll be refunded the energy. I've had absolutely zero energy problems with Bladestorm since the rework, but I also don't use Bladestorm all the time, and I run Zenurik. I'm pretty sure that the energy spent to kill up to 18 enemies is worth it. Also, if you read the wiki, every few enemies that Ash kills with Bladestorm will also refund energy equivalent to one mark. As far as not accomplishing anything, at the very least, it got rid of the "press 4 to win" mechanic, which is enough for me on its own.

I'm sorry for all the idiot Ash players who are upset that they have to actually something to clear a room now. Wait, no I'm not sorry, learn to actually play the game and be part of a team instead of only knowing how to press a single button. I commend DE for their efforts to remove ability spam and encouraging people to actually play the game, rewarding actual player skill, and I look forward to them continuing to do so.

[Calvyr]

3 minutes ago, WastedAlmond said:

Ash is in a pretty good place currently, but bladestorm needs more attention in my opinion.

The bladestorm rework was a (small =P) step in the right direction, it still feels like I'm an onlooker. Not sure if someone already suggested something similar, but here goes my suggestion.

I think bladestorm would be much cooler and more fun if it functioned something like this:

1. You activate the skill, it primes your bladestorm (Ash unsheathes his armblades)

2. Aim at enemy and left click to attack, each attack would cost 15 energy for example (Ash teleports to enemy and attacks them, attacks would use existing bladestorm animations)

3. After attack Ash disappears in a puff of smoke (invisible, but stationary) and you have X seconds to attack again, at this point you could do 3 things:

4.1 Right click to attack the same enemy again (15 energy)

4.2 Aim at and left click another enemy to teleport to them and attack, repeating step 3 (15 energy)

4.3 Wait X seconds or press 4 (bladestorm key) to stop bladestormin'

This would allow the player to directly control bladestorm AND would make it more engaging and fun while opening up some new tactics. You could for example focus on a single target and pour your energy pool into just pummeling them. Or you could use your attacks to chain teleport relatively fast from enemy to enemy to cover distances (bladestorm animations would keep it balanced mobility wise). Or you could prioritize enemies on the fly while executing your bladestorm, overall this would focus on bringing more player engagement and skill into play.

If the devs are happy with the current bladestorm, then this could be an augment mod.

This is an interesting idea, but I feel like the same thing can be accomplished by using a combination of Smoke Screen and Teleport with the Fatal Teleport augment. The advantage there is that if you kill the enemy (which is guaranteed if you're using a Covert Lethality dagger), you're refunded half of the energy spent to activate Teleport.

[Tengu_Bruxo]

This was my suggestion to fix Ash..