Ash's shuriken should be more than damage

[VinnyBoy]

The recent update made me replay ash because I think he is enjoyable now. However, his puny shuriken attack is seriously underwhelming and I believe it should be more than that.

Historically, it is believed that shurikens were used to annoy and wound an opponent, giving an advantage in a battle. Currently, ash's shuriken do not do that unless an augment is applied.

I propose that in addition to the slash proc that always happen, there should be a small chance to deliver either an impact or puncture proc on the target. This would make the shuriken the "proper" softening weapon I, for one, think it should be.

Furthermore, some other player mentionned that it could be neat if there were several mode for shuriken. Namely, one that throw a shuriken "fan" while another throw the usual homing stuff. I think it could be neat to expand on that idea by being able to cycle through different shurikens, much like ivara's arrows.

I will add that it could be fantastic that shuriken would be included in bladestorm's mechanics. For instance, target hit by shurikens could count as automatically marked at least once for a certain duration, or suffer more damage from bladestorm or, if not,  augmented teleport. Smoke screen could add some more effectiveness to shurikens, as either extra damage or, I dunno, extra velocity.

[Cash4Cookies]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Seeking_Shuriken

"softening" eh

 

its fine as it is

Edited November 26, 2016 by Cash4Cookies

[MrM1]

As far as I remember the Shurikens were originally used also to hinder / stun the enemies (usually if you get a friggin' shuriken in your leg you instinctively grab it because of the sudden pain, sometimes if the people were tough enough, they pulled the shuriken out). That can be applied too, I guess. For example after being hit by the shuriken the target gets knocked back and stunned for 1 second or something like that.

[MrM1]

Just now, Cash4Cookies said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Seeking_Shuriken

 

"softening" eh

That's an augment. This does not really count.

[Trichouette]

500 slash damage + 43.75% of that damage x10 times as true damage, I don't call that weak at all... And that's for only 1 shuriken.

An enemy with no resistance take around 2600 damage per shuriken, and I'm not even talking about the power strength.

 

Again, it's more a problem of "bladestorm makes his other abilities pitiful", now the smokescreen is interesting but shuriken & teleport are pathetic.

[Tsoe]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

500 slash damage + 43.75% of that damage x10 times as true damage, I don't call that weak at all... And that's for only 1 shuriken.

An enemy with no resistance take around 2600 damage per shuriken, and I'm not even talking about the power strength.

 

Again, it's more a problem of "bladestorm makes his other abilities pitiful", now the smokescreen is interesting but shuriken & teleport are pathetic.

thats it

[MrM1]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

500 slash damage + 43.75% of that damage x10 times as true damage, I don't call that weak at all... And that's for only 1 shuriken.

An enemy with no resistance take around 2600 damage per shuriken, and I'm not even talking about the power strength.

 

Again, it's more a problem of "bladestorm makes his other abilities pitiful", now the smokescreen is interesting but shuriken & teleport are pathetic.

This ability is indeed pretty good in low- up to mid-levels. But not on high-levels because then you'll have to spam 1 single enemy with that ability.

[Dragazer]

12 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

500 slash damage + 43.75% of that damage x10 times as true damage, I don't call that weak at all... And that's for only 1 shuriken.

An enemy with no resistance take around 2600 damage per shuriken, and I'm not even talking about the power strength.

 

Again, it's more a problem of "bladestorm makes his other abilities pitiful", now the smokescreen is interesting but shuriken & teleport are pathetic.

That's mostly a DoT for 10 seconds. You are really only doing 218 dmg a second, any gun in the game could do the job better.

[Dragazer]

17 minutes ago, Cash4Cookies said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Seeking_Shuriken

"softening" eh

 

its fine as it is

Abilities shouldn't need bandaids to be decent 

[EmptyDevil]

Shuriken's description says it impales enemies to walls, but it doesn't do that. I've been trying to push that idea to DE quite a bit because it would be some pretty nice CC.

[Cash4Cookies]

24 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

That's an augment. This does not really count.

why? i dont see any reason to exclude the augment. since it exists it should be part of a discussion about the ability.

6 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Abilities shouldn't need bandaids to be decent 

as much as i agree that the augment system is rather meh at the moment, that is a discussion for a different topic and shouldn't be part of this thread.

the ability by itself is decent early, the augment gives it a use for lategame, thats progression. i don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[shut]

32 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

This ability is indeed pretty good in low- up to mid-levels. But not on high-levels because then you'll have to spam 1 single enemy with that ability.

I haven't used Ash in ages, but can't you still shoot enemies and throw Shurikens at the same time for extra damage? Or did all "one-handed" abilities change to act like Excal's Radial Blind, where you can still move around but it'll interrupt/pause whatever you're doing with your hands during the cast animation?

Edited November 26, 2016 by SortaRandom

[shut]

Just now, Cash4Cookies said:

why? i dont see any reason to exclude the augment. since it exists it should be part of a discussion about the ability.

The same could be said about plenty of other abilities, though, like Soul Punch. Yeah, it works great with augments, but by itself it's a steaming crapheap at high levels. That's not okay.
Obviously Augments make an ability significantly stronger, but the ability should still be useful at all levels of play without requiring that the player sacrifice a precious mod slot.

That being said, I think that Shuriken is in a pretty decent place right now since it deals pure armor/shield-ignoring damage (which, Covert Lethality aside, is the best kind of damage when it comes to scaling). If anything is needed at all, Shuriken could do with giving enemies a very brief stagger (like when hitting stuff with a melee weapon), but nothing more.

[RoninJed]

2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

The same could be said about plenty of other abilities, though, like Soul Punch. Yeah, it works great with augments, but by itself it's a steaming crapheap at high levels. That's not okay.
Obviously Augments make an ability significantly stronger, but the ability should still be useful at all levels of play without requiring that the player sacrifice a precious mod slot.

That being said, I think that Shuriken is in a pretty decent place right now since it deals pure armor/shield-ignoring damage (which, Covert Lethality aside, is the best kind of damage when it comes to scaling). If anything is needed at all, Shuriken could do with giving enemies a very brief stagger (like when hitting stuff with a melee weapon), but nothing more.

I agree +1..a little more stagger/stun...maybe leaves the enemy open for finishers too.

[Syln]

would be nice to have a synergy with the 4 :

Basically bladestorm become death mark (or whatever name) which apply a mark (as it does right now) but instead of pressing 4 again you'll have the choice between 1 or 3

Pressing 1 will throw a shuriken at each marked enemies applying a bleed proc and slightly slowing them down, you can see that as some kind of bonuses granted by the marks (won't consume the marks)

Pressing 3 will send clones to do the usual bladestorm letting you free to do your stuff while they're at it (which will consume the marks)

Edited November 26, 2016 by Syln

[Cherac]

1 hour ago, VinnyBoy said:

Furthermore, some other player mentionned that it could be neat if there were several mode for shuriken. Namely, one that throw a shuriken "fan" while another throw the usual homing stuff. I think it could be neat to expand on that idea by being able to cycle through different shurikens, much like ivara's arrows.

• Caltrops - Throw a caltrop bomb that explodes on impact with any surface. Deals y slash damage to enemies within the blast radius of x meters and saturates the ground with sharp caltrops for z seconds. Enemies standing on the caltrops will move slower (firing speed unaffected) and take slash damage over time. The ground aoe doesn't affect flying/floating enemies.
• Flash bomb - Throw a flash bomb that explodes brightly on impact with any surface. Blinds enemies within the blast radius of x meters for z seconds and leaves behind a bright flare which will burn for z seconds and cause accuracy penalty to enemies within y meters. x < y. The accuracy penalty increases closer to the flare and affects all enemies who enter the aoe.

As for the other stuff, I've never really played Ash that much so I can't chime in on the conversation about damage numbers, but I think I have to agree with OP on the enjoyment factor. Well, the damage potential aside, Ash feels a lot more fun to play now than the last time I played him. The kit is way more mobile and I feel its more in line with Ash's theme of being a true ninja. Playing with the deluxe skin also gives me flashbacks of Ninja Gaiden Black, guess I need to finally dust off my old Xbox.

[Genitive]

1 hour ago, EmptyDevil said:

Shuriken's description says it impales enemies to walls, but it doesn't do that. I've been trying to push that idea to DE quite a bit because it would be some pretty nice CC.

This would be nice. I like when abilities do things besides dealing damage, and Shuriken could get such a treatment.

[VinnyBoy]

Lots of people mentionned that shurikens is more powerful than I tend to imply, with my original post. It is true, when I was writing that text, I formaed my Ash and I forgot that shuriken leveled along with it. Shuriken is indeed plenty powerful. However, as someone pointed out, my guns are just way better. And while the power works wonders in low to mid level missions, so does everything else I can do (my ignis is a fun gun in these situations).

My point isnt that it is better or worse that guns, my point is that it does nothing special, and thus the only thing it have to "compete" with the other features this game has is damage. Everything I do beats my shurikens in raw damage, no considering that my guns, swords and other powers do a bazillion other little gimmicks.

Shuriken should do other things than pure damage. Bleed is pure damage, and it is clearly not enough.

[Dragazer]

17 hours ago, Cash4Cookies said:

why? i dont see any reason to exclude the augment. since it exists it should be part of a discussion about the ability.

as much as i agree that the augment system is rather meh at the moment, that is a discussion for a different topic and shouldn't be part of this thread.

the ability by itself is decent early, the augment gives it a use for lategame, thats progression. i don't see anything wrong with it.

 

You seem to be missing the point, a mod should not have to be mandatory to make an ability useful.

We know for a fact DE has wanted to rid of mandatory mods for a long time.

[Kcham375]

What if smokescreen synergized with shuriken by giving them and their slash procs stealth damage when cloaked?

Edited November 28, 2016 by Kdog777

[ssh83]

Yay.  More utility frame suggestion that is coupled with "blade storm is good."

If Blade Storm is good, why are you asking for utility option.

It's like asking for Ember to get utility powers.  You'd only do that when she lost her main role as damage dealer.

[VinnyBoy]

On 2016-11-28 at 5:55 PM, ssh83 said:

Yay.  More utility frame suggestion that is coupled with "blade storm is good."

If Blade Storm is good, why are you asking for utility option.

It's like asking for Ember to get utility powers.  You'd only do that when she lost her main role as damage dealer.

If you read closely, I mostly suggested things regarding other powers.

[Hypernaut1]

On 11/26/2016 at 11:30 PM, VinnyBoy said:

Lots of people mentionned that shurikens is more powerful than I tend to imply, with my original post. It is true, when I was writing that text, I formaed my Ash and I forgot that shuriken leveled along with it. Shuriken is indeed plenty powerful. However, as someone pointed out, my guns are just way better. And while the power works wonders in low to mid level missions, so does everything else I can do (my ignis is a fun gun in these situations).

My point isnt that it is better or worse that guns, my point is that it does nothing special, and thus the only thing it have to "compete" with the other features this game has is damage. Everything I do beats my shurikens in raw damage, no considering that my guns, swords and other powers do a bazillion other little gimmicks.

Shuriken should do other things than pure damage. Bleed is pure damage, and it is clearly not enough.

I get your point. I did use shuriken in between reloading though, so it's still semi useful