Being different at any cost, actually a good thing?

[JohnKable]

DE said more than once that their goal is to differ in any way possible, compared to already existing games. This and the update frequency are probably the key factors of their success.
And even when they take some inspiration from others, they clearly always try to put their imprint and make something different out of an already seen concept.

And i couldnt agree more with them. I love Warframe because its cool, updated and different.

BUT...

But why they chose to blindfold themselves and keep sticking to this mentality when they add into the game some -not so new- concept and in the effort to make it different the result is clearly just less functional?

An example? arcanes and focus schools. Many of us have more arcanes and more than one focus school, and those can be easily compared to already seen upgrade systems.

Why cant we simply have 3 blank slots in our loadouts 2 for  arcanes and one for the focus school we want for that specific frame?
Lets say they want us to buy some cosmetic? well just bind the second arcane slot unlock only if theres any cosmetic equipped.
Why should i go to the operator every time i want to change my focus school when changing the warframe? sure, its not a big trouble but still would be damn easy for them to integrate that directly ito loadout screen.

And my list is very long, beginning with raids and going through a good 20% of the game, i just brought the shortest examples.
I mean i like how warframe is different from other games, but not when the only difference one could point out is " its similiar but less functional".

This and the lack of infos and tooltip windows it the interface make the game pretty damn hard to understand for new players. Not my problem having over 1500h in the game, but its clearly a fact seeing how many new players ask for help in the chats.
Sure, some are just lazy, but many others arent at all. 
The game is still evolving and with time many things are fixed, but im really worried looking at the amount of stuff left behind and forgotten just because it worked "ok" so far, like there's always something more relevant to be worked on. Ive seen some great QOL changes in the past months but looks like they simply dont care about the multitude of small core features that could actually make the game shine to new players eyes (and vets too).

Please dont mind too much at the grammar or typos, English is not my language and my only goal is to write in a comprehensible way.

[ThunderZsolt]

56 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

Why cant we simply have 3 blank slots in our loadouts 2 for  arcanes and one for the focus school we want

This would be so useful, that i don't even know why we don't have it yet.

Also, more buyable loadout slots plz. (I'm MR20 and bought all 5 extra slots, still need like 3)

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

1 hour ago, Krumplifej said:

This would be so useful, that i don't even know why we don't have it yet.

Also, more buyable loadout slots plz. (I'm MR20 and bought all 5 extra slots, still need like 3)

Agree with Krump and OP not having the slots for Arcanes over using them on fashion items.

I thought it was why they stopped Arcane helmets in the first place. Don't mind spending rep to remove arcanes. 

But ok some back items i like to have on multiple frames. But the arcanes may not be best for that frame especially Inaros verse my Frost.

[ClaraVitalia]

To be honest, I would LOVE if they rebooted the whole game. Put out an alternate client with changes that they make over time. Put it out there for a small, select group of people at first, then bring in more as time goes on. Maybe the original Design Council members to start, then the rest of the Founders, then others. Have an application system where people write about their experience(s) in betas and testing. Have a quota of fleshed out suggestions and confirmed bugs, or something. Take it really serious: if someone is in your closed beta, make it required that they help move it forward. A timeline for it could be like this...

- Initial release to a very small group of testers with minimal changes from the standard version.
- Change a few things, just a couple things at a time, and have that initial group test out the changes until they're completely done.
- Bring in a few more people. Keep to the quota of communication. Hold private streams for the testers to discuss changes and get feedback.
- Start making bigger changes with this new group, get more feedback.
- Repeat that cycle of "new additions to the tester pool > make changes > get feedback".
- Eventually have a completely reworked game, with all the best features from the original, but with new features that enrich what's already there, and fix what was broken.
- ???
- Profit.™

DE has so many people who love their game. And gods know that they'll play it, even if it's stupid. Warframe, as a whole, is so awesome and fun that it's going to take some absolutely spectacular bullcrap to push away the core group of loving players. And everyone knows that new players will keep coming, even if they just play for a few hours. They're still potential customers who might want to give you money, DE! Give them reason to do it!

Also, I am all for them stopping this hard push of new content after the last standard Warframe gets Primed, at the least. I could see them waiting until the roster is complete before making such radical changes. Hells, maybe even push out this "new, revamped Warframe" as the 1.0 release that takes the game out of this perpetual beta? I dunno. I doubt that anyone of import will see, let alone read my latest wall of text. I fully expect this to get buried in the forums within the hour. >_> lmao

[JohnKable]

@LordClaros exactly. I understand that pushing new content is pretty crucial for their business, but i really cant explain myself how so many little (but relevant) things are simply left behind.

Arcanes were just an example, market can be another. i really dont know how they managed to revamp the market doing a staight downgrade to the older version. A couple of things are improved but are like a drop into a lake of poor choices.

They receive massive feedback from players, for free, and as i understand that not all the feedback can be listened nor is easy to slip into the game i really dont see why they dont focus at least on very small and simple changes that altogether would vastly improve the player experience with really little effort.

And as you say theres alot of people that would PAY to access an -even more beta- client of the game. There are literally thousands of people that would pay for that, for providing even more free feedback.
Instead we keep getting new broken things that just stockpile onto the past broken stuff making the game just a great mess. And the hope of seeing those things fixed or reworked gets smalled update after update.
I love that mess called Warframe, but has come to a point where it has become too much. And i dont want DE to cross that breaking point... these guys should really start again playing their own game.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I've been telling my friends that I wish I could equip my active Focus Power per frame rather than in general for a very long time. I love the idea.

I also wish they would remove arcanes from cosmetics, and I recall it being said a while back that they were working on that but haven't heard anything since.

[Berserkerkitten]

A reboot! With a dev team of 170 or so people, who can hardly manage to fix all of the issues the game is currently facing. Hilarious! XD

I think their design philosophy works out for the most part. Change stuff, break stuff apart and remake it. I just wish they'd actually spend more time finishing some of their systems instead of just piling up more and more half-baked features. Arcanes, Focus, Riven Mods, (Sh)Arkwing, certain melee stances, boring placeholder bosses... there's a lot of stuff here that needs more love and polish. Some decent tutorials for newcomers would be nice. Change simply for the sake of changing stuff can get a little annoying at times.

[ClaraVitalia]

11 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

A reboot! With a dev team of 170 or so people, who can hardly manage to fix all of the issues the game is currently facing. Hilarious! XD

I think their design philosophy works out for the most part. Change stuff, break stuff apart and remake it. I just wish they'd actually spend more time finishing some of their systems instead of just piling up more and more half-baked features. Arcanes, Focus, Riven Mods, (Sh)Arkwing, certain melee stances, boring placeholder bosses... there's a lot of stuff here that needs more love and polish. Some decent tutorials for newcomers would be nice. Change simply for the sake of changing stuff can get a little annoying at times.

I'm not sure if you're passive aggressively shooting down my idea, or if you're passive aggressively insulting DE's ability to make a coherent game. Either way, the reason the game is the unstable, buggy mess that it is now is because DE added way dafuq too much stuff way dafuq too quickly. The funny part is, watching each update roll out and seeing each subsequent bit of new content completely break something else that was pre-existing in the game, (with Riven mods being the culmination of this absolute disaster of a trope), makes me realize that DE are two things: passionate and creative. One thing they're not? Responsible. They don't seem to care if this new awesome weapon or system or whatever breaks the game; they enjoyed making it, and they enjoy using it. It's like watching 100+ versions of myself trying to write a single homebrew tabletop system. "Oh, I should allow players to make their own abilities, with absolute freedom!" And then suddenly, that guy's over there having attached a tower shield to a whip and is coptering through a room, killing everything within 20 yards of himself. And I'm just like, "Oh, that was cool!" ignoring the fact that he just ruined an encounter that took me two days to write and come up with all the stats for the enemies. It was fun, in the moment. But it completely made all the work that I'd put into this environment completely worthless.

In the end, DE treats this game, which thousands of people play, like it's something they're throwing together for themselves and their friends. Like a really stupid mod for Source Engine that suddenly blossoms into one of the most popular and highest-grossing items on Steam. The problem is that they add things to the game because they LIKE it. Who cares that Ivara just made Loki pretty much obsolete for stealth missions? Who cares that Ash has been made pretty much obsolete by the game changing around him to make him so? Who cares that, no matter what, nothing will ever be as OP and busted as full-duration Mirage with a Synoid Simulor?

The point of me making that suggestion is that I know that people change. I know that other people feel the same. But I'm not deluding myself; as I've said before, I'm fully prepared for this to get lost in the miles and miles of posts that will bury it into obscurity until some idiot inevitably necros it and pisses literally everyone in the universe off. It's hope that someone from DE will see it and it will set things in motion for a change to this game. I mean, I've thrown over $2000 in plat and Founders' benefits at this game. If all else fails, I'll still hope for this game to become the best possible version of itself that it can be, just so I don't feel like a jackass for logging literal months of my life into it, and disgusting amounts of money for someone as poor as I am. :/ lol

[Xenoraptor]

Extra Credits just posted an interesting video about the style of development Warframe is currently using, termed "Accretion" or "Design by Landfill":

I truly hope they don't continue with this style, as I find it repulsive and frustrating, but I do recognise the points brought up in the video, that it is an effective system to keep an existing player-base engaged on the cheap.

[Berserkerkitten]

10 hours ago, LordClaros said:

snip

I think you're reading a little more aggression, passive or otherwise, into my post than there really was. My point is, that reboot you crave is extremely unlikely to happen. You've seen how long it took them to finally release The War Within, something that was slated for release in July. Things like Umbra or Damage 3.0 may or may not happen in our lifetime, but they were brought up quite a while ago and nobody really knows when, how or what. The list goes on, but I'm not gonna bore you with stuff you've probably read a thousand times in a thousand threads. As it stands now, there's just a whole lot of stuff that needs fixing, tweaking or implementation in the first place. DE can barely keep up with all the stuff they keep on promising.

I believe they're really passionate about their game. I believe they really mean it when they promise new stuff and I believe they're excited about whatever crazy ideas they come up with, even the divisive Riven mods. I just don't believe it's realistic to expect a reboot, let alone an alternative client, which splits up both the community and the already small development team. With them already taking so long to fix and tweak stuff, do you really believe it's gonna help things if you have some of them work on a second client? I also think you've said a very important thing here: 

Quote

In the end, DE treats this game, which thousands of people play, like it's something they're throwing together for themselves and their friends. 

I absolutely agree. But personally, I don't necessarily consider that a bad thing. I feel that DE are making the game they want. They're willing to listen to fan feedback and suggestions, but at the end of the day, it's their game, their vision and they'll do what they want, even if parts of the community disagree with it. Didn't Steve say something to that effect during the last Devstream where they showed off the Riven changes? 

They'll never make the game "the community" wants. And seriously, how could they? If you asked the millions of players across all platforms what changes they want, you'd get millions of different opinions. Which part of the community are they supposed to listen to? Only the players who "know what they're talking about"? How do you define those? Are those the ones who share your views and opinions? I don't think it's that simple.

The very philosophy behind Warframe is that DE are making a game they want. It's their vision. If you look at the history behind the creation of the game, how DE got shot down again and again whilst trying to find a publisher for the game they had in mind. Nobody wanted to support them. Now they've turned this game into a huge success without a publisher, proved everyone wrong and did their own thing. Doesn't sound like a company that's gonna reboot their entire game, based entirely on the feedback and suggestions of a small part of the player base. And why would they?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Berserkerkitten

[ClaraVitalia]

8 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

I think you're reading a little more aggression, passive or otherwise, into my post than there really was. My point is, that reboot you crave is extremely unlikely to happen.

Putting in the "Hilarious! XD" at the end made it seem that way.

And, as I've said, I don't have any delusions about them completely rebooting the game. I'm fully aware that DE has an issue with actually keeping to deadlines or keeping track of all the bugs and exploits that need to be fixed. However, the only example I ever see is the absolutely insane amounts of people complaining about The War Within. I mean, members of the dev team actually received death threats over it. As for the things that I've "probably read a thousand times in a thousand threads", I don't even lurk on these forums. In fact, I tend to avoid the community in most games like the plague. I've been burned, flamed, trolled, abused, and targeted too many times to feel like that's a good way to spend my time. And gods know I've welcomed a lot of it onto myself. That all said, I would love to see some other examples of what you're talking about, since, as I said, the only things I've ever seen people complain about, (on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, in-game, and otherwise), is The War Within. Well, and Draco getting nixed. But I don't really count that.

Back on topic, I actually understand now why a lot of this game grates on my nerves. The only online game I've played as much, if not more, than Warframe is Final Fantasy XIV. And that game follows the same design theme as this: the "Design by Landfill" explained in that video above. But the issue here is that FFXIV has hours upon hours of cinematics, dialogue, quests, and dungeon content. All of it feels unique and they all have their own place in the game. And Square Enix has done a phenomenal job with keeping old content relevant through endgame rewards that require low-level dungeons, and the inclusion of random dungeon selections that give you different rewards depending upon your level. You're level 25? You get extra EXP and gil! You're level 50, the level cap of 2.x? You get Tomestones of Poetics, which you can use to get level 50 stuffs! You're level 60, the level cap of 3.x? You get Tomestones of Scripture and Lore, which you can use to get the most recent, brand new gear, and the tier before that!

I feel like an MMORPG is a much more fitting place to use a design philosophy like Accretion than a 4-man, mission-based shooter. With Warframe, the problems aren't that they're not fixing the old stuff. It's not that they're piling new stuff on top of it. It's that there isn't enough to the game, as it is, for them to do that without massive consequences. And, honestly, the only things I can think of that work well with this Accretion-style design path are weapons and some warframes. But when things like Archwing are left completely unstable, but then required to complete the newest quest and cinematic storyline, it just makes me think that they're half-assing the design theme that they follow with the entire rest of the game. They put in Archwing, mucked with it a bit, then completely ignored it for nearly a year. It's still disorienting, it's glitchy as hell, it's hard to control, the player-strength to enemy-strength ratio is ridiculously unbalanced, and it's simply not fun. I, personally, don't enjoy getting motion sickness while trying to shoot down a ship that has a weak spot the size of my pecker, all while getting slammed by a barrage of lasers, rockets, and kamikaze drones, all of which instagib you if they land a hit. And I'm by far not the only person to have this issue. And yet, despite all this, they keep forcing it on us like we asked for it. It's one thing to make a game that you really enjoy, and you want to play, yourselves. It's another thing to ignore nearly 20% of said game, then force people to use the systems in that 20%, all without making it actually playable, in order to complete your content that you're so proud about, you call it your baby and write an open letter saying how thankful you are that you got to make it.

Now, don't get me wrong here: I don't think that Accretion is, by default, a bad design model. I think it's actually fairly nice. But it's nice when it's MANAGEABLE. Like my earlier example of FFXIV. Darklight gear used to be the best in the game. Now, you can't even obtain it. And, even if you could, it's so disgustingly bad compared to the gear that you CAN get, the only reason you would ever want it is to project the appearance onto your better gear. But, then again, when they released Heavensward, a bunch of the gear you get in dungeons from level 51 to 60, as well as the gear you can craft, buy from vendors, or get as quest rewards, HAVE THE SAME MODEL. And, they come with the added benefit of being dyable, tradeable, and a whole lot better than the originals. Darklight gear is now completely obsolete. It's still in the game, but it's no longer obtainable. Nor will it likely ever be. Because it's been replaced, in every regard, by newer things. You can't say anything similar to that about items in Warframe. Sure, there are better full-auto weapons than the Braton now. But, in terms of stats, many of the specialty weapons, (Simulor, Tonkor, Ignis, etc), are insanely better. But it goes deeper; they're cooler, too. Why the hells would I ever use a sniper to pick off enemies from afar when I can use a higher-damage, silent, bad-&#!-looking, customizable bow that fires exploding arrows? Projectile drop-off? One word: Daiku. Oh, you want to rapid fire? Either mod the Daiku for fire speed, or use Dread. Why use the Cernos when the Daiku, Dread, and Paris Prime are all hugely better AND cooler? I can count on two hands the weapons that make damn near every other weapon in the game obsolete. That's not doing Accretion right, I feel.

But at the end of the day, I get it. I really do. I understand that DE wants to make a game that they, themselves, would play. And gods know, they play the hell out of the game that they have made and continue to make. But even from a veteran player's perspective, this game is overly complex and the meta of it is so one-sided, it's truly saddening to see. Am I going to stop playing it, outright? No. I have too much time, energy, and cold hard cash invested in this to abandon it completely. It would take some #@*&$@y on the level of Martin Shkreli to make me disown this game. I mean, at its core, it is a fantastic game, and it's really fun. And so long as they know ONE PERSON who could help them learn it and farm what they need, (or they have a ton of money to get the best stuff, outright), it can be fun for new players, regardless of its complexity. It's just that I want to see this game become the absolute best that it can be. Making a game that YOU like and want to play is one thing. But disregarding practical design choices in lieu of "this looks neat" is just plain stupid, in my opinion.

In closing, I concede that I guess that looking at this game like it's a big-budget, name-brand, full-studio title is probably not the best. It's a project of passion. It's the brain child of people who love video games and love having fun. I guess the best way to look at it is that the meta will always keep changing, that it's made for a specific type of person, (the devs), and that there will be parts that I don't enjoy. Like crafting and gathering in FFXIV, some people might love it and know all the ins and outs of it and have all the best stuff for it, and others, (like me), will avoid it like the plague. I just honestly hope that this rampant dumping of new content every so often doesn't make this game implode in on itself.

Sidenote: One change that I feel is just honest and should definitely be implemented is the removal of "beta" as a classification for future updates. If the game is going to keep growing and changing and getting stuffs slumped on top of it constantly, just calling it by the update name, even without a number, is probably a good idea, in my opinion. They've already started doing something similar, but I see no reason to not go all the way with that concept. Just my opinion; I frankly don't care that much about it, though. :I lol

[Berserkerkitten]

I'm sorry if the 'hilarious' felt offensive to you in any way. With that said and looking at how you feel flamed, trolled, burned and abused by the community, I sincerely hope that you'll manage to develop a thicker skin. And, just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that to be hurtful or insulting. And when it comes to Warframe, I find the community to be refreshingly friendly and welcoming. I mean, this isn't exactly LoL or Dota. Maybe, I dunno, give em a chance and don't interpret everything in the worst way possible. ♥ Some of them might surprise you.

FFXIV, eh? Now I see where that reboot thing came from. :D
The thing with Square is, Final Fantasy is their flagship. The original release of XIV was so insanely bad, so unplayable, they... well, I don't have to tell you what happened. But what they pulled off was absolutely amazing. I played the first release and there was no way in hell I would have believed they could turn this trainwreck around.

With that in mind, Square desperately wanted fans to accept their re-release, they wanted to redeem themselves and make sure their new version would appeal to as many people as somehow possible. And then there's DE, the guys who are doing their own thing, openly saying that they want to break and change their own stuff, even if it means annoying the hell out of some veteran players. 

For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you said. As for the long list of things they said they would fix, add, look into, there's that Limbo overhaul they said they had on top of their priority list sometime around Tennocon in August. They talked about re-balancing Focus long before TWW was even a thing. When fans asked if we should expect Umbra weapons on top of Umbra warframes, Steve said that's something he totally wants to do. Did you see when a bug allowed people to cross-breed Kavats with Kubrows? Steve said they're gonna make that a feature, alongside many new companions, including an aardvark, apparently. Sharkwing exterminate missions had spawning issues for as long as they've existed and there's still no fix. 

You've already mentioned Sniper rifles being largely worthless. And that's after they've already been overhauled. I think machetes and their single, terrible stance fit into that cathegory, as well. Bosses. Phorid still has his boring placeholder model and zero story to him whatsoever and Steve is already promising whole new star systems for people to explore. As you've pointed out, Archwing is still insanely divisive and lots of players choose to completely ignore it, because it simply doesn't have the same amount of polish to it as the rest of the game. It feels utterly detached from the rest of Warframe. I think the "raids" are in a similar place and at least one of them has been so broken for such a long time that people pretty much pretend it doesn't exist. Mastery and how people exploit the quickest and easiest ways to grind through the ranks as quickly as possible, followed by DE nerfing and removing the most exploited missions and tilesets, curing the symptoms rather than the problem behind them. Complete and utter lack of decent tutorials. I have dragged over a dozen friends and family members into Warframe, most of which gave up relatively quickly, because DE just keep on piling system on top of system on top of system until it becomes impossible for newcomers to keep up. And then they kill their dogs for not logging on frequently enough.

DE promise tons of stuff. They get all those crazy ideas for new features. Then they put them in there, half-baked, unfinished, unleash tons of new stuff upon the playerbase and that's how you get 19 hotfixes for the course of a week or two. There are times where they make it seriously difficult for even the most die-hard fans to remain loyal to them. Then we're stuck with Focus and a huge BETA sticker on top, implying constant updates and changes, but they get so bogged-down adding other stuff, they simply ignore Focus for an entire year. So yeah, you're right, get rid of all that beta nonsense in the description already. The game has been around for nearly four years now and you can spend a lot of money on it, that's no beta. To me, DE are a bit like an excited puppy. They're totally crazy about one thing, then totally forget about it five minutes later, because they absolutely love something else. Focus seems to be kind of an issue here. :D

Edited December 3, 2016 by Berserkerkitten

[ClaraVitalia]

On 12/2/2016 at 6:41 PM, Berserkerkitten said:

I'm sorry if the 'hilarious' felt offensive to you in any way. With that said and looking at how you feel flamed, trolled, burned and abused by the community, I sincerely hope that you'll manage to develop a thicker skin. And, just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that to be hurtful or insulting. And when it comes to Warframe, I find the community to be refreshingly friendly and welcoming. I mean, this isn't exactly LoL or Dota. Maybe, I dunno, give em a chance and don't interpret everything in the worst way possible. ♥ Some of them might surprise you.

Noting that you're of the same rank as me in terms of Foundership, I assume that you've played this game for a while and have probably been through a few Clans/Alliances during that time, or at least interfaced with a fair amount of other players. And while I can see that you have 1200+ posts on here, (with nearly the same amount of rep, to boot), I can't be sure about how much you've interacted with people during missions, trying to trade, trying to make preformed cells, etc. Because this community, for the most part, is anything but "refreshingly friendly and welcoming". Sure, League and other such games do have very elitist and malicious playerbases. I think that just goes hand-in-hand with the MOBA genre. But in this game, I've seen people tear each other down for even OWNING an Attica, let alone using it in a mission.

I once brought a fire-rate, Thunderbolt Attica into a Tikal credit farming and leveling group, and the host disbanded the squad within two minutes, then PMed me and told me to kill myself because I "wasn't taking this S#&$ seriously". I've been belittled, abused, singled-out, and excluded for S#&$ simply for using weapons that are deemed unfit for someone of my MR to use. And that's not even taking into account the times that I've said some S#&$ completely benignly, trying to start a friendly discussion to get a feel for how people like/dislike something, and have a dozen different people, (including a Guide of the Lotus on two occasions; same one both times), tear me down and tell me to "nut up or shut up" because they assume that I'm just complaining.

And it's not just me; I've had friends try to get a price check on something in Trading chat, have someone ask if they're buying or selling, and get told to go F*** themselves because they said "Neither; just want to know what the typical prices are for it." In fact, I've yet to hear about someone actually giving any indication of a price, even to try sabotaging someone by giving a skewed price.

But let's ignore public chats for a moment and look at just general interactions in the heat of a mission. I was in a Sortie group for a Corpus Eximus Stronghold Survival. I was Vampire Leech Duration Trinity, spamming EV and keeping Blessing up as much as I could, what with all the Nullifiers that were fupping EVERYWHERE. With me was a Tonkor/Rhino, (and that's all he had equipped), a Mirage/Simulor, (who obviously never used anything BUT the Simulor), and a Loki with Irradiating Disarm. The Mirage kept running into Nullifier auras, (thus losing Blessing and not being able to get EV energy or overshields), Kept getting downed. I get *@##$ed at for now EVing. I mentioned that they were in Nullifier auras, and were across the map from me, to boot. Rhino told me to F*** off if I was going to *@##$ and make excuses. He died while typing. Told me not to revive him because he didn't want to deal with my S#&$. So I let him die.

Mirage *@##$es at me that I let the Rhino die. Called me a $&*#^%. They gets downed again, again across the map from me, and dies. Complained that they had no revives left and that I was to blame. Rage-quit the squad. Rhino starts spectating the Loki and calling him a *@##$ for using Irradiating Disarm. He was stacked right next to me, using a Soma Prime to mow down Nullifier auras so I could Tigris them in the face. We got through the entire survival with just the two of us. Rhino tried to queue us for Law of Retribution afterward. Said he'd show me how to do Trinity correctly because I was "a @(*()$ $&*&*#(%& C*** with autism".

Me and the Loki left the squad, rejoined on invite only, two-manned the last part. Got a Riven Mod. Then the Loki blocked me for no reason. Didn't say a word throughout the whole thing. He left the squad right at the end, I tried to PM him, but he'd blocked me. Got a PM from some random guy claiming to be his friend, saying that I should be ashamed of the S#&$ that I just pulled. Then he blocked me, too. I sent maybe two message that entire time. "You were standing in Nullifier auras and are too far away. We need to stay grouped up." a the Mirage and "lmao, Nice try, kiddo." to the Rhino when he tried to queue us for LoR. The Loki invited ME to HIS squad, and HE set it to private. But I'm the A******.

And that's just a couple examples. Sure, there are awesome, friendly peeps in this community. And gods know the A******s aren't nearly as aggressive as in LoL. ("I hope you suffer from depression. Because you'll be doing the whole world a favor when you eventually kill yourself." is a pretty tame thing to say in League, I've found; which is why I don't play it anymore.) But the fact is that either I've had really S#&$ luck and somehow run into nearly nothing but A******s in this game, or the community, as a whole, has a larger amount of douchebags than nice people. Which, taking into consideration what this topic is about, makes complete sense to me. When people spend fucktons of money on something, they suddenly think it should be perfectly customized to how they like it. And this game does a very good job at giving incentives to buy plat; it simply takes too long for the casual player to get all the things that they want. Lack of satisfying returns, plus a to-do list with such length that it would make Ron Jeremy S#&$ himself, (you're naughty if you get that joke, lol), combine to breed a pretty bitter and nasty attitude toward the game, as a whole. Tack on internet anonymity and the fact that someone will seemingly ALWAYS have more shinies than you, and this game is just asking to become a breeding grounds for malicious A******s.

In the end, I'm jealous that you seem to have had a pretty good experience in this community. Your rep on here speaks to it, to be honest. But stating that I should "develop a thicker skin" is just ignorant. I can't really play this game with anyone in the community without running the very real risk of it being sabotaged or made into an aggravating mess. And assuming that I'm thin-skinned and just *@##$ing about it is even more ignorant; if it truly upset me, I would've walked away a long @(*()$ time ago. Just because I rant about it and use strong language doesn't mean I'm upset or have my feelings hurt or am having some other vulnerable reaction that people think is wrong to have. Even if I was, would I be in the wrong for being upset? Am I not allowed to feel hurt by the S#&$ people say and do? "It's the internet; grow up." is not a healthy way to look at S#&$. That just condones the fact that people are being C***s to one another for no @(*()$ reason. In a video game, no less. Regardless, however you think I feel about this is most likely wrong. In fact, I tend to feel nothing, at all, about this S#&$. I just get focused on not allowing it to be something I'm exposed to. And, at the end of the day, I've found that assuming that people are going to be A******s to you makes it a lot easier to deal with it when they actually are. That might be unhealthy, in itself, but it sure as S#&$ makes it a lot easier to deal with drama when it does roll along.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On December 1, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Xenoraptor said:

Extra Credits just posted an interesting video about the style of development Warframe is currently using, termed "Accretion" or "Design by Landfill":

I truly hope they don't continue with this style, as I find it repulsive and frustrating, but I do recognise the points brought up in the video, that it is an effective system to keep an existing player-base engaged on the cheap.

This allows for the freedoms that let true creativity flow.

They are really only limited by their  skill at implementing their vision and the technological limitations.

By their grace and enthusiasm, we are allowed to participate in many ways.

So yes, this team is pushing their creative limits and breaking a bunch of eggs along the way.  I for one find it glorious to watch them swing for the fences and grow, am equally grateful for the strikeouts, and am thankful to play a small part.

Edited December 10, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[UFOLoche]

On 12/1/2016 at 9:57 PM, Xenoraptor said:

Extra Credits just posted an interesting video about the style of development Warframe is currently using, termed "Accretion" or "Design by Landfill":

*snip*

I truly hope they don't continue with this style, as I find it repulsive and frustrating, but I do recognise the points brought up in the video, that it is an effective system to keep an existing player-base engaged on the cheap.

I'm honestly a bit tired of seeing this video being used as a comparison to Warframe.  While Warframe does do slight Accretion, they do go back and fix/improve things, hell, there's a whole Dojo 2.0 in the works soon(tm), and while the lack of Dark Sectors has been annoying, given that they're actually going and changing everything about it..it kinda makes sense.

I legit can't think of..anything that they put in that they just ended up abandoning and left in the game.  Their method is more akin to "Put in a bunch of new things over time, make sure they work decently enough, then make them amazing later."  The only system I can think of is Stealth, but even then, it's not like Stealth is a terrible system or is abandoned, it just needs some more love, which it'll inevitably get.

Edit: That, and the guy uses DFO as an example, which doesn't fit "Accretion" at all.

Edited December 9, 2016 by UFOLoche

[ChuckMaverick]

@LordClaros My normal practice in MMOs is to get into a good guild/clan/whatever as soon as possible and then turn off public chats and never look at them again.

I haven't felt the need to do that in Warframe, but if you're having a bad experience then getting into a good clan, or getting your clan into a good alliance may help you find people that you enjoy playing with.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

29 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

@LordClaros My normal practice in MMOs is to get into a good guild/clan/whatever as soon as possible and then turn off public chats and never look at them again.

I haven't felt the need to do that in Warframe, but if you're having a bad experience then getting into a good clan, or getting your clan into a good alliance may help you find people that you enjoy playing with.

I think the Clan experience is undersold and VERY underrated in WF.

Instant access to 30% more content and a higher grade of co-player is invaluable.  

DE Steve even mentions a recommitment to Clans in 2017 in the Devstream.

[ClaraVitalia]

At this point, I've pretty much accepted that this game is never going to be exactly what anyone wants it to be. I don't even think the devs will ever make it exactly how they envision it, simply because that vision is always changing and evolving. Which is fine, but... I'm still going to dream about a Warframe that is stable and consistent, but still has the charm and fun that made me throw ungodly amounts of money at it over my time playing it. :/ lol

10 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

My normal practice in MMOs is to get into a good guild/clan/whatever as soon as possible and then turn off public chats and never look at them again.

I haven't felt the need to do that in Warframe, but if you're having a bad experience then getting into a good clan, or getting your clan into a good alliance may help you find people that you enjoy playing with.

I have a clan with me and my friends, and I've been in six different alliances over the course of my clan's lifetime. Four of these alliances were made up of at least a dozen different clans... And they all went inactive one by one until eventually the alliance leader disbanded the whole thing.

The other two were prime examples of why I hate this game's "community".

In the first one, I was getting personally attacked by multiple members of one of the clans in the alliance. When I quietly brought it up to the alliance leader via PM, he said that he'd gotten no complaints about that clan from anyone else, but that they had been complaining to him about MY clan doing the same thing. He then kicked both our clans out of the alliance, then PMed me and said, "Thanks for f***ing up a good thing, kid." I found out later that the alliance leader had gotten permabanned for spamming Relay chat with obscenities and trying to incite suicide in multiple players during missions and while sabotaging trades with them.

In the second one, the whole alliance was pretty inactive, for the most part, unless new content was out or it was the designated raid night. We had a Discord server that was great, since we could communicate and play other games together. It felt like a real community... But then almost the entire population of the Discord, (excluding my clanmates and that of another clan), started ripping into the guy who set up the Discord, telling him to kill himself and that he doesn't belong to their group. In fact, they made their own Discord so they could play games "without any of this stupid bulls**t drama", so they didn't even need him anymore. He disbanded the Discord, and the Alliance leader invited me to the new server, acting like the guy who ran the old server was the one who antagonized them. I replied that I'd seen the entire chat and been there the whole time, declined his invite, then left the alliance. Got a fair amount of PMs from various members of that alliance telling me to kill myself and that I'm just as bad as the other guy. "You guys should f**k. Seriously. Because you're both f****t r****ds. Then off each other. It'll be very poetic."

I blocked pretty much everyone in that alliance, turned off all public chats, and never looked back. At this point, the most I do is I'll sometimes shoot the breeze in Relay chat when Baro is there or I'll chill in Maroo's Bazaar to sell my stuff and chat a bit with people. All I really need is my small clan and my friends. If even one of them is online, we can do pretty much anything. And whatever we can't do alone, we can PuG the last one or two slots. I don't pay attention to squad chat that much anymore, I sit on Discord with my clannies and we have fun. Because this is a video game. Contrary to popular belief, that's what it's made for.

[ChuckMaverick]

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, sounds more like the sort of behaviour I'd expect from some MOBA players, not so much in MMOs.

11 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I think the Clan experience is undersold and VERY underrated in WF.

Instant access to 30% more content and a higher grade of co-player is invaluable.  

DE Steve even mentions a recommitment to Clans in 2017 in the Devstream.

If the focus is to be clan content, rather than alliance, then I hope DE introduce some way to merge clans that allows you to recover some of the resources you've invested in building them.

I have a solo clan that I've researched virtually all the projects in just because I'm something of a completionist, and it's a personal challenge to carry that on and finish everything by myself, so I'd prefer new group content was at the alliance level.

It also reduces the risk that you'll have to walk away and leave all your work behind if things don't work out within the group.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, sounds more like the sort of behaviour I'd expect from some MOBA players, not so much in MMOs.

If the focus is to be clan content, rather than alliance, then I hope DE introduce some way to merge clans that allows you to recover some of the resources you've invested in building them.

I have a solo clan that I've researched virtually all the projects in just because I'm something of a completionist, and it's a personal challenge to carry that on and finish everything by myself, so I'd prefer new group content was at the alliance level.

It also reduces the risk that you'll have to walk away and leave all your work behind if things don't work out within the group.

A suggestion?  I know someone who was in your situation and decided to recruit for a very small clan and gave each member a room of their own to decorate. 

[BlackCoMerc]

On 12/2/2016 at 9:15 AM, Berserkerkitten said:

I think you're reading a little more aggression, passive or otherwise, into my post than there really was. My point is, that reboot you crave is extremely unlikely to happen. You've seen how long it took them to finally release The War Within, something that was slated for release in July. Things like Umbra or Damage 3.0 may or may not happen in our lifetime, but they were brought up quite a while ago and nobody really knows when, how or what. The list goes on, but I'm not gonna bore you with stuff you've probably read a thousand times in a thousand threads. As it stands now, there's just a whole lot of stuff that needs fixing, tweaking or implementation in the first place. DE can barely keep up with all the stuff they keep on promising.

I believe they're really passionate about their game. I believe they really mean it when they promise new stuff and I believe they're excited about whatever crazy ideas they come up with, even the divisive Riven mods. I just don't believe it's realistic to expect a reboot, let alone an alternative client, which splits up both the community and the already small development team. With them already taking so long to fix and tweak stuff, do you really believe it's gonna help things if you have some of them work on a second client? I also think you've said a very important thing here: 

I absolutely agree. But personally, I don't necessarily consider that a bad thing. I feel that DE are making the game they want. They're willing to listen to fan feedback and suggestions, but at the end of the day, it's their game, their vision and they'll do what they want, even if parts of the community disagree with it. Didn't Steve say something to that effect during the last Devstream where they showed off the Riven changes? 

They'll never make the game "the community" wants. And seriously, how could they? If you asked the millions of players across all platforms what changes they want, you'd get millions of different opinions. Which part of the community are they supposed to listen to? Only the players who "know what they're talking about"? How do you define those? Are those the ones who share your views and opinions? I don't think it's that simple.

The very philosophy behind Warframe is that DE are making a game they want. It's their vision. If you look at the history behind the creation of the game, how DE got shot down again and again whilst trying to find a publisher for the game they had in mind. Nobody wanted to support them. Now they've turned this game into a huge success without a publisher, proved everyone wrong and did their own thing. Doesn't sound like a company that's gonna reboot their entire game, based entirely on the feedback and suggestions of a small part of the player base. And why would they?

Making the game you want is pointless if paying customers don't want to play it. Creativity is useless if you can't temper it with some measure of disciplined realism...

[ClaraVitalia]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

A suggestion?  I know someone who was in your situation and decided to recruit for a very small clan and gave each member a room of their own to decorate. 

I like that suggestion, but how do you suggest preventing people from dismantling each others' rooms, or ripping apart common areas' decorations so they can use the resources for their own stuffs? If we had per-room permissions, that'd be easy. But short of only giving them the permissions while you're there watching them, then taking those permissions away when you're not there, I don't see any solution to that possibility. Now, if there was a detailed log that showed, per-room, what was destroyed and by whom, that would be different. But in a game so riddled with bugs and exploits that make the game nigh unplayable in the core parts of it, ("Oh, cool! I unlocked this new ability! And... I fall through the map whenever I use it on the new tileset. Awesome."), neither system that I just suggested, (per-room permissions and per-room logs), are likely to ever be implemented. And, if my suspicions are correct, we'll be seeing the Orbiter get a HUGE expansion at some point, possibly nullifying the need for solo Dojos outside of ClanTech research and possibly trading. We've already got in-ship decorations... What if they add the ability for players to host instances of their own ship and invite others to join them?

The point is this: while I like your idea, since it provides incentives for players to join and stay in your clan, that's really all it does. It doesn't really motivate them to interact with people and be nice. In fact, something tells me that many players, (if not most of them), would join such a clan, get annoyed that the clan officers aren't on and available exactly when they want them to be, then go create their own clan or join another. And what with the possibility of a Dojo overhaul, (which would make this perk of being able to build/decorate your own room simply a feature of the game), and the Orbiter getting expanded, (removing the incentive to join a clan for that reason, altogether), I'm honestly having a hard time seeing how this would make people less toxic. In my experience, (which, as we've been over, has been properly s***), giving something to someone only makes them demand more. And when you dont' give them more, they turn into little kids and throw temper tantrums and try to wreck your s***. I know that's not 100% of the time always true with every single player of the game. Hells, a randomer who joined my clan a while back now has more control over the dojo than I do, to give you an idea. But it's so common, ESPECIALLY in a game that rewards you so heavily for spending IRL money on it. The way I see it, most people want to get what they want exactly when and how they want it. Anything else is disgusting and worthy of insult, in their eyes. That's just how it is, much to my distaste.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

7 hours ago, LordClaros said:

I like that suggestion, but how do you suggest preventing people from dismantling each others' rooms, or ripping apart common areas' decorations so they can use the resources for their own stuffs? If we had per-room permissions, that'd be easy. But short of only giving them the permissions while you're there watching them, then taking those permissions away when you're not there, I don't see any solution to that possibility. Now, if there was a detailed log that showed, per-room, what was destroyed and by whom, that would be different. But in a game so riddled with bugs and exploits that make the game nigh unplayable in the core parts of it, ("Oh, cool! I unlocked this new ability! And... I fall through the map whenever I use it on the new tileset. Awesome."), neither system that I just suggested, (per-room permissions and per-room logs), are likely to ever be implemented. And, if my suspicions are correct, we'll be seeing the Orbiter get a HUGE expansion at some point, possibly nullifying the need for solo Dojos outside of ClanTech research and possibly trading. We've already got in-ship decorations... What if they add the ability for players to host instances of their own ship and invite others to join them?

The point is this: while I like your idea, since it provides incentives for players to join and stay in your clan, that's really all it does. It doesn't really motivate them to interact with people and be nice. In fact, something tells me that many players, (if not most of them), would join such a clan, get annoyed that the clan officers aren't on and available exactly when they want them to be, then go create their own clan or join another. And what with the possibility of a Dojo overhaul, (which would make this perk of being able to build/decorate your own room simply a feature of the game), and the Orbiter getting expanded, (removing the incentive to join a clan for that reason, altogether), I'm honestly having a hard time seeing how this would make people less toxic. In my experience, (which, as we've been over, has been properly s***), giving something to someone only makes them demand more. And when you dont' give them more, they turn into little kids and throw temper tantrums and try to wreck your s***. I know that's not 100% of the time always true with every single player of the game. Hells, a randomer who joined my clan a while back now has more control over the dojo than I do, to give you an idea. But it's so common, ESPECIALLY in a game that rewards you so heavily for spending IRL money on it. The way I see it, most people want to get what they want exactly when and how they want it. Anything else is disgusting and worthy of insult, in their eyes. That's just how it is, much to my distaste.

Sounds like a feedback point worthy of posting...Clans will once again become a point of emphasis in 2017 per the year-end Devstream.

If you'd like, I'll create a feedback post about it.  A Warlord option to grant and rescind a fully customizable room to key clan members should be an option.

[Berserkerkitten]

On 12/9/2016 at 10:30 PM, LordClaros said:

In the end, I'm jealous that you seem to have had a pretty good experience in this community. Your rep on here speaks to it, to be honest. But stating that I should "develop a thicker skin" is just ignorant. I can't really play this game with anyone in the community without running the very real risk of it being sabotaged or made into an aggravating mess. And assuming that I'm thin-skinned and just *@##$ing about it is even more ignorant; if it truly upset me, I would've walked away a long @(*()$ time ago. Just because I rant about it and use strong language doesn't mean I'm upset or have my feelings hurt or am having some other vulnerable reaction that people think is wrong to have. Even if I was, would I be in the wrong for being upset? Am I not allowed to feel hurt by the S#&$ people say and do? "It's the internet; grow up." is not a healthy way to look at S#&$. That just condones the fact that people are being C***s to one another for no @(*()$ reason. In a video game, no less. Regardless, however you think I feel about this is most likely wrong. In fact, I tend to feel nothing, at all, about this S#&$. I just get focused on not allowing it to be something I'm exposed to. And, at the end of the day, I've found that assuming that people are going to be A******s to you makes it a lot easier to deal with it when they actually are. That might be unhealthy, in itself, but it sure as S#&$ makes it a lot easier to deal with drama when it does roll along.

Ack!

I think one big factor here is attitude. All I said is that I'm hoping you'll develop a thicker skin. Emphasizing that I'm in no way saying that to belittle you or make fun in any way. Look at this huge paragraph you wrote in response. I never implied you were being whiny or upset or that you just needed to grow up. I was merely trying to say hey, don't let it get to you so much. And you interpreted that in the worst way possible, because, as you're saying yourself - you choose to assume that everyone is going to be an A******. You say it makes it easier to deal with drama, but perhaps in some situation assuming everybody is trying to mess with you might also cause drama where there wasn't any to begin with.

It's quite clear that we have very different points of view on the community and people being awful in general and there's nothing I could say or do to change yours. So don't worry, I won't try. As for me being ignorant when I say one needs a thick skin on the internet - I pay my bills by reviewing games. Depending on the title, I spend anywhere between 20 and 40 hours to review most games. I'm being as thorough as I can, completing the game, checking the forums, talking to the community. And whenever one of my articles goes online, I get a few people who say lovely things such as: "I hope you get fired", "I hope they didn't pay you for this" and similar crap, because I gave a 78 to a game, which clearly should have been an 82. 

Somebody accused me that I was bought by DE for rating TWW with an 82 when in their opinion it should have been a 77. That guy actually stalked me in-game and pestered me until I blocked him. So yeah, I get the crazies. I'm pretty sure everybody does. It's just that, in my opinion, those guys are the exception, not the norm. I get people acting like idiots in trade chat. I get people AFKing in pick up groups. I get people who contribute nothing to a team, yet complain about everybody else the loudest. This absolutely happens. But I also made friends in trade chat when I posted WTB messages and the people who sold certain mods or items to me asked what I was going to do with my new stuff. And we'd end up talking about specs and missions and god knows what and sometimes added each other to the friends list. I get stuck with complete noobs in tactical alerts, I talk to them, answer their questions and get to see them get a little better every day. Not everbody has the nerve for that, but I find it exciting. The other day somebody was moaning about RNG on the forums, complaining about how he wasted a dozen or so relics and never  got the part he needed, so I just gifted it to him ingame, because I felt like it. These things can absolutely happen, as well, if you let them. Heck, look at the discussion we're having right now. We've only just met on here and we're having what I think is a rather pleasant, interesting conversation on here. :D

Some popular Youtuber said you can get 99 positive comments on something and one jerk. You'll remember that one guy and he's all it takes to ruin your day. A hundred folks can line up to meet you, 99 of them will shake your hand and be really nice and that one guy slaps you in the face. And you'll remember only that one guy. And there's gonna be a new guy like that, or two, or three, every day. And you always dwell on the crap, you always let the idiots get to you until the people who don't suck don't even seem to exist anymore. I'm just trying to avoid letting it get this far.

Again, I get it, it doesn't work that way for everyone and if it was that simple to you, then you probably wouldn't dislike the community so much in the first place and not everyone can do it. It's only what I do. Not trying to speak for you. But I'm not sure calling me ignorant on that matter is really fair. I get to deal with this nonsense on a daily basis. All the time, as part of my job. And ya gotta be able to deal with that or it'll drive you insane. And this is why I made that comment about thick skin. Because honestly, I'm really just hoping that maybe you'll get to see that there's a nice side to this community, as well. You won't agree with me there and it's not how it works for you. I get that now and it makes me a little sad. But those things you said up there... I wasn't saying any of that to you. Not even implying. If anything, I was trying to be supportive. Cut me some slack.

[Misgenesis]

I dont think its a good thing, DE is taking it too far. Changes like speeding up weapon swap times would apparently bring the game closer to DMC which is just bull.