equinox true gender

[SaurusRex]

On 21/12/2016 at 9:20 AM, ninjalord4321 said:

for everyone who has been discussing equinox gender it is both male and female because of its 2 form's first is the night mode equinox's night mode looks exactly like a female because of the body type and its type of styling to for its light mode its male because of the same thing for its night mode according to my resources equinox is controlled from 2 bodies and there are both brother and sister but they control its night and dark mode so 1 body with 2 minds but i bet the game wont even show it on the second dream quest so this is only a good bet its both male and female.

"part of the moon tenno's we are recruiting please message me if you wish to join" 

Here you go, you dropped these

,,,,,,,,,,,,.........

[.corvon.]

oh boy we started a second page over this 

[METAL_BAWKSES]

Equinox is Slaanesh. I thought everyone knew that.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 21/12/2016 at 11:35 PM, heskaroid said:

Warframes are objects, therefore they don't possess any chromosomes.

Equinox is an it.

Warframes are still feminine and masculine, and before the whole Second Dream thing was conceived of they probably had genders. Ships don't have genders but they're still referred to with female pronouns. Point moot.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Warframes are still feminine and masculine, and before the whole Second Dream thing was conceived of they probably had genders. Ships don't have genders but they're still referred to with female pronouns. Point moot.

Gender is how an individual identifies and has nothing to do with sex characteristics, e.g., breasts.

So, ship's do have genders, but they do not have sexes.

[AdunSaveMe]

-

Edited December 24, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Gender is technically the same regardless of the individual's identification. Regardless, people call Equinox a her because she's feminine. Doesn't really matter if that's correct or not, beats calling them "it", especially when seeing the Warframes as characters, which they sort of are.

Look up the definition of sex and gender, it's not the same.

 

[tnccs215]

58 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Gender is technically the same regardless of the individual's identification. Regardless, people call Equinox a her because she's feminine. Doesn't really matter if that's correct or not, beats calling them "it", especially when seeing the Warframes as characters, which they sort of are.

I think you need to do some extra research before you should continue this conversation.

Gender is not sex. Gender is the pool of cognitive characteristics that a certain society associates with a certain sex. It is a purely psychological thing, more related to the personality than anything else.

Gender roles is what a society expects someone of a certain sex to behave as. It's not what it believes you'll be in the first place, it's what it believes you should act like in the first place, because you were born with a certain physiological trait, and regardless of whether you like it or not.

Gender Identity is what you consider yourself to be. The gender you find yourself more inline with, the one you... identify with the most. Whether you consider yourself (and many times, are) more courageous and easy going or sensitive and caring. It isn't obligatorily exactly what you are in practice, but how you see yourself and how you are confortable with. That is, you can, in practice, be more brutish than the norm and still identify as feminine -- because you understand femininity better, prefer femininity, and overall "feel at home" that way.

Sex, on the other hand, is defined by your physiology. Whether you have a penis or a vagina.

In very short terms, Gender defines whether you are masculine or feminine. Sex defines whether you are male or female.

Regardless whether you believe they are connected or not (because, contrary to common belief, it's actually very much open for debate and study -- but god forbid me from continuing. I might start looking like an SJW, and everyone knows that if something is coined as SJW, it is obligatorily both bad and wrong) these things are not the same.

And it would be a good thing if you considered to try to learn a bit more before talking -- specially on an issue most people are shockingly ignorant of -- before trying to define the world in your eyes.

[AdunSaveMe]

21 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Gender is not sex. Gender is the pool of cognitive characteristics that a certain society associates with a certain sex. It is a purely psychological thing, more related to the personality than anything else.

Term used interchangeably. I meant chromosome definition, i.e. sex. My point stands, poor word choice aside.

People call Equinox a her because she's feminine. Doesn't really matter if that's correct or not, beats calling them "it", especially when seeing the Warframes as characters, which they sort of are. Like ships, warframes have no gender identity, so it's not exactly politically incorrect or even inaccurate to use the pronoun.

I didn't actually mean to seem ignorant or aggravating, it was just the wrong choice of words.

Edited December 24, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Term used interchangeably. I meant chromosome definition, i.e. sex. My point stands, poor word choice aside.

People call Equinox a her because she's feminine. Doesn't really matter if that's correct or not, beats calling them "it", especially when seeing the Warframes as characters, which they sort of are. Like ships, warframes have no gender identity, so it's not exactly politically incorrect or even inaccurate to use the pronoun.

I didn't actually mean to seem ignorant or aggravating, it was just the wrong choice of words.

meh.

I think ships being called "her" instead of "it" is stupid in the first place.

Regardless, despite common sense, words and semantics do matter, and a lot. Would you have used "sex" instead if "gender" in the first place, this whole thing could be avoided. It's good that you admitted your mistake though.

One way or another, I do have to note many people don't call Equinox "she". I've even see many calling her a "he". She is defined as female -- because, let's be honest, Warframes are not ships. Despite what the lore might infer, they do have personalities attached to them (that's why we have stances in the first place).

Equinox is in the particular position in that its much easier for a person to treat her anyway. And, truth is, that's ok. After all, by changing the color of your frame and it's stance, you give it a different personality, a different gender even. And, so, specially with Equinox, pronouns are interchangeable.

Sure, you can follow the default and treat her as "she" -- I do that myself -- but I honestly do not see much issue with people treating their Equinox has "they", "it" or even "he" -- though intentions do factor in.

I do see an issue with people trying to define what Equinox is or isn't, specially after DE already (if partially) did so. That means the OP.

Frankly, I think Equinox should be either treated as "her" or "they". The first due to DE's statement, the second because it's gender neutral, and controversy proof. But eh, as long as they don't treat her as more freakish than any other frame, I'm very much ok.

Edited December 24, 2016 by tnccs215

[MagPrime]

I think the gender of equinox is up to the player (or operator) while the sex is female, per DE.

 

[MagPrime]

 I think the gender of equinox is up to the player (or operator) while the sex is female, per DE.

 

[AdunSaveMe]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

meh.

I think ships being called "her" instead of "it" is stupid in the first place.

There's reasons for it. Not that it matters anyway. It's a boat.

[tnccs215]

6 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

There's reasons for it. Not that it matters anyway. It's a boat.

already edited the comment. There is much more meat now.

And even if there is a justification for it, somehow, I doubt it is bullet proof.

10 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

 I think the gender of equinox is up to the player (or operator) while the sex is female, per DE.

 

My main position exactly.

[heskaroid]

3 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Warframes are still feminine and masculine, and before the whole Second Dream thing was conceived of they probably had genders. Ships don't have genders but they're still referred to with female pronouns. Point moot.

So do ships have genders then? I fail to see how valid your point is.

[Doom_Bunny]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

I think you need to do some extra research before you should continue this conversation.

Gender is not sex. Gender is the pool of cognitive characteristics that a certain society associates with a certain sex. It is a purely psychological thing, more related to the personality than anything else.

Gender roles is what a society expects someone of a certain sex to behave as. It's not what it believes you'll be in the first place, it's what it believes you should act like in the first place, because you were born with a certain physiological trait, and regardless of whether you like it or not.

Gender Identity is what you consider yourself to be. The gender you find yourself more inline with, the one you... identify with the most. Whether you consider yourself (and many times, are) more courageous and easy going or sensitive and caring. It isn't obligatorily exactly what you are in practice, but how you see yourself and how you are confortable with. That is, you can, in practice, be more brutish than the norm and still identify as feminine -- because you understand femininity better, prefer femininity, and overall "feel at home" that way.

Sex, on the other hand, is defined by your physiology. Whether you have a penis or a vagina.

In very short terms, Gender defines whether you are masculine or feminine. Sex defines whether you are male or female.

Regardless whether you believe they are connected or not (because, contrary to common belief, it's actually very much open for debate and study -- but god forbid me from continuing.

And it would be a good thing if you considered to try to learn a bit more before talking -- specially on an issue most people are shockingly ignorant of -- before trying to define the world in your eyes.

Nein, we are continuing this because derailing this thread seems like a good idea.

First of all those last two sentences are contradictory. It is very much an open study/debate yet you blast Adun for having an opinion in an open debate.

Secondly, technically gender is sex as that is where a child starts (from infancy) to build their identity/definition from their own biology then recognizing other people and their biology. Around that you have society (no, no, people take that way out of context of the child's space.) the people and things that interact specifically with the child that can influence a child into thinking how it should act. Not specifically expectations into a certain role but just people being people. How the people around the child act can influence into thinking that's how it should act because it's female and you're female or male-male. You get the idea, sex helps a child define a lot of things at (practically birth :P) infancy that affect it's psychology through life. So to say gender is only defined by psychology would be a terrible under estimation of the human biology.

Gender identity is a really iffy part and sports a great deal of discussion around transitioning. Around the age of 10 a child has established an identity for it's self, of course this can be changed later like any human, infant to adult it just gets harder with age as the body and mind tread their path. A child with an inconsistent identity to it's physiology is considered unhealthy. In many cases it is unhealthy as it can result in a plethora of mental illnesses because their psychology and physiology are miss matched. Then comes modern medicine with drugs and therapy with which we can sway a person's physiology or psychology (a lot harder to do) to either side. However since psychology can more easily change at a young age (through those hormonal years) it becomes a conundrum of which path to take and the implications of each one.

What I always find fun in these discussions is introducing the animal kingdom and all it's wondrous weird acts of reproduction. Biology camp doesn't like it because I show them things like the asexual komodo dragon, gastropods, and traumatic insemination then we go on about chromosomes. Psychology camp doesn't like it because it stretches gender to new proportions. In which they must find new definitions for the psychology of creatures that don't pertain to; masculine, feminine, or non-social instinctual creatures which brings up human instincts and how that factors in. 'Tis fun times.

This all just results in a need for a better definition of what gender (singularly) means. If it's purely physiological or psychological there are too many variants in both to have a clear definition of the word. Maybe it relates back to infancy in how we see others. In which case you are correct however I'm thinking on a singular level not societal and more then just cognitive traits.

We can go on but it's almost midnight and I've got to drive 3hr before 8am tomorrow :( bye :)

1 hour ago, heskaroid said:

So do ships have genders then? I fail to see how valid your point is.

Warframes have masculine and feminine qualities and probably had genders before the second dream. After the second dream we see the cognitive responses come from the tenno not the frame however they still are assigned a gender. In a simple example; A ship is still labeled as female so the point is debatable. We've assigned femininity to an intimate object why? It has nothing to do with biological traits or cognitive functions but we call it a female. Therefore it is debatable.

For future reference the Latin word for ship is Navis which is feminine. Sailors used to paint the names of significant ladies on their boats. It could also having something to do with the carving of women on the bow of the ship.

[tnccs215]

4 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

Nein, we are continuing this because derailing this thread seems like a good idea.

First of all those last two sentences are contradictory. It is very much an open study/debate yet you blast Adun for having an opinion in an open debate.

Well yes, but just because it is an open study/debate that doesn«t mean that there aren't things known to be untrue. This is one of them.

5 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

Secondly, technically gender is sex as that is where a child starts (from infancy) to build their identity/definition from their own biology then recognizing other people and their biology.

That's a non sequitur. Just because two things might be intrinsecally connected, that does not mean they are the same thing. The cause isn't the consequence. 

Even if the child builds their gende based first and foremost based on their biology (i.e. sex) that just means.... that they build it based on their biology. It doesn't mean it is their biology -- specially taking into account how the environment will influence that person.

You can argue sex affects gender -- I never denied that. But you cannot argue they are the same thing.

I didn't dislike the rest of your post but, frankly, I have two hours of sleep, a long day ahead, and a fear of discussing gender and/or sex on public forums. If you want to continue this talk on private, feel free to pm me.

[Doom_Bunny]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I didn't dislike the rest of your post but, frankly, I have two hours of sleep, a long day ahead, and a fear of discussing gender and/or sex on public forums. If you want to continue this talk on private, feel free to pm me.

Nah, as per the first sentence the intention is derailment. You sleep well :)

[Corvid]

Why not both? The love of Zonda takes many forms and envelopes all!

It is the ultimate physical embodiment of ardour!