WhiteMarker Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, toafarmer said: Kicking people to downgrade clans is not an acceptable solution. If people are seriously considering this, they have no idea on what a clan is for. But keeping inactive members and crying about a decision made by DE is the way to go? People saying the are alone in a moon-clan, and they don't have all those samples... that's what we should base possible critics on? Wow... If the world would work this way, we all would be doomed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisfortune Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, toafarmer said: Kicking people to downgrade clans is not an acceptable solution. If people are seriously considering this, they have no idea on what a clan is for. Kicking inactive members for being inactive is a solution. If you aren't contributing, either because you're leeching for research or a trading post, or you're just inactive, then you shouldn't be surprised when you're kicked, and the clan leader isn't a bad person for doing so. When some new employee gets hired, and he doesn't pull his weight, he doesn't stay for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Regiampiero Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JSharpie said: 3 Hema posts in 10 minutes. However, I do like this idea, but I feel it's kind of abusable. How? Not seeing it, but I'm known to miss exploits. Edited January 20, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toafarmer Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Yeah, you guys have no idea at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteMarker Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, toafarmer said: Yeah, you guys have no idea at all. Right back at you as you fail making yourself clear. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobyTheDuck Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well, I cant say I'm surprised. Its not like they play their own game to know that mutagen dont even drops from Eris (The 'rest' of the game aside derelict, where mutagen drops). And we will have to expect more crazy stuff into the future due this massive shtifest? Great! I expect my money going into several other publishers since I wont @(*()$ bother doing the same mission over and over again to get a billion of the same rare resource because the devs refuse to fix or reduce ONE SINGLE THING THAT AFFECTS 90% OF THE PLAYERS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrian3k Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, JSharpie said: Kicking inactive members for being inactive is a solution. If you aren't contributing, either because you're leeching for research or a trading post, or you're just inactive, then you shouldn't be surprised when you're kicked, and the clan leader isn't a bad person for doing so. When some new employee gets hired, and he doesn't pull his weight, he doesn't stay for long. You forgot those who play casually and those who are newbies, but I suppose that those people should not be allowed to be in clans any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Basically, I fear the Hema situation is driving us apart. All of us. Players, clans, forum debaters who are normally happy to bounce ideas off each other, developers, community managers. All of us, normally so happy to work together, being forced apart by some numbers and callous remarks. And I don't want that to happen, I think all of us -- players, forumgoers, AND developers -- need to find some way of coming to an understanding The backstory Spoiler In the past, whenever DE put out a resource requirement that was provably exorbitant, far and above previous precedents, there was a backlash. The Sibear, the Saryn Prime part with the oxium, stuff like that, the payers and forumgoers started a really big row. And traditionally, the devs have listened and taken those concerns into consideration, even if direct action wasn't always taken. This worked at the time, but I think it set up a bad pattern that both sides got too used to. Players got too used to the idea that DE would listen to loud and common complaints, and DE got too inoculated to indignation That's worrying enough on its own, but the Hema situation is throwing even more factors into the mix, and I find them truly troubling... First, the Hema involves clans. And the effects of this weren't quite as immediate, but I fear they were no less benign for it. More and more people are not only willing to kick players out of clans, eject their "dead weight" -- to look at names of friends that previously brought good memories and now write them off as ballast to be tossed away -- but also blaming other clans for not doing the same. Clans and friends, rather than seen as community and other positive things, are seen as a liability in the Hema discussion. Worse, clans that researched the Hema were selling clan memberships just to sully the names of clans further I don't think any situation that causes an issue like that can be written off as "ultimately harmless", I don't think that is a situation that was healthy for any of us. And I'm not blaming players for being in that situation either The second factor is time. This debate has been going on for over a month. And time makes people apathetic (again, not blaming anyone for falling victim to this, it's just a fact of human nature). Players who previously rallied to or at least understood the Hema indignation, seeing it slowly degrade with time, turning actively hostile to the people they previously supported. In turn the people still dedicated are also turning toxic against their former colleagues; I'm guilty of this as well. That's not a healthy outcome, and the longer this goes on the worse it's going to get You can say it's DE's fault for stalling so long, or the indignant player's fault for fighting over this cause for so long, but once again I'm not here to blame. I'm trying to calm down personally, and start a brainstorm for all of us We need to talk. All of us, somehow. Customers and developers alike. We really need to rally around, figure out some way to have arbitrators, and all of us come to an understanding. Even if we can't convince DE to partake (and I pray that we can convince them to), the debates here on the forums need to calm down as well. I was being toxic earlier too, and if I can extend some apologies I'd love to feel some camaraderie. We're all Tenno here, I hope we can remember that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imfncraig Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I am very disappoint with this decision. I will express this with my money, and not spend any @(*()$ more of it on this game for the time being. That's the best I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Regiampiero Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 WHAT?! Why was my thread based on giving feedback of Dojo Research get merged with this General Discussion, unproductive cluster of a thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakorak Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, JSharpie said: Kicking inactive members for being inactive is a solution. If you aren't contributing, either because you're leeching for research or a trading post, or you're just inactive, then you shouldn't be surprised when you're kicked, and the clan leader isn't a bad person for doing so. When some new employee gets hired, and he doesn't pull his weight, he doesn't stay for long. I guess we're literally abandoning the pretense that this is a game, and accepting the idea of warframe as a job with applications and reputations and evidence of hours per day with our noses to the grindstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisfortune Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, Jakorak said: I guess we're literally abandoning the pretense that this is a game, and accepting the idea of warframe as a job with applications and reputations and evidence of hours per day with our noses to the grindstone Just because it's a game doesn't mean everything should be handed to you. If you want to blow my words out of proportion that's fine, but you know what you're doing and you know it isn't fair to the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtiSylv Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) It's hard for even a ghost clan to get that many unless it has the absolute maximum number of active players, and even then they all actively buckle down and farm ODD over and over with optimal team compositions (and, possibly, boosters) to do it in any reasonable length of time I can't imagine how hard it must be on higher-tier clans. I'm really questioning the logic behind the decision to not do anything about this, like, did they look at the numbers at all? Did they check the % of clans in each tier that have hema research compared to the same thing for other weapons? Did they look at the number of clans that have been disbanded in the past month, or the number of clans that have downsized? Like, I like the game, I like DE, but this decision in particular just makes no sense to me from any standpoint and I really don't want to support it. Edited January 20, 2017 by ArtiSylv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toafarmer Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 After all those merges reading this thread makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisfortune Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) Stop making threads about this. Edit: I appreciate your calm rationale and sentiment, but this is a metacomplaint, and metacomplaints are not cool. Edited January 20, 2017 by JSharpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSkycroft Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JSharpie said: Stop making threads about this. Edit: I appreciate your calm rationale and sentiment, but this is a metacomplaint, and metacomplaints are not cool. If we stop and let this slide,they'll just do it again. Derelict does not drop enough,and a change IS needed. Edited January 20, 2017 by DSkycroft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl4ckhunter Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) there's nothing to debate or to discuss about the hema mutagen issue, we said "The cost is unreasonably high" they answered, "We know but we like it that way. Look an handful of clans has managed it, we can't take away their effort for the benefit of the wide majority can we now? So stop arguing about this and stuff it. Oh you could buy the hema with plat instead. Look at how good we are.", you don't need to call for calm and it's utterly pointless, why shouldn't people complain here? it's not like they're going to get pitchforks and storm De headquarters anyways, there's really nothing at risk besides a few people senisibilities. Edited January 20, 2017 by bl4ckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnuggleBuckets Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm repeating myself I apologize, but I really don't understand the mindset the devs have of seeing it as a negative that players like their game and have spent a lot of time with it, and as a result, stockpiled a lot of resources. Why do the devs see the efforts of players in need of negation? And isn't it much more universal and reasonable to base the cost and effort in researching and crafting weapons on the quality of the end product? Almost any game with similar mechanics balances time, effort, rarity and cost on how good the guns and gear end up being, it's about feeling your efforts being rewarded appropriately, why is it that warframe has the value proposition all over the place with good weapons easy to get and craft and MR fodder costing in some cases more? If the devs really want for research to take more time and effort, then adopt an active development process, either the same pigment drop system from the Dojo, or a new mechanic of hiring scientist NPCs who'll work on the research & development of your project, and they'll make occasional requests for needed resources and parts that might require the occasional field trip mission to obtain them and continue the research. Wouldn't that also be more engaging and rewarding in the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ograzzt Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Eienlanzer said: Seriously, it was easy to farm. Stop whining already. I am disappointed in seeing so many of you kick and scream when you need to put a little work in. Don't go into this thread then? And I actually farmed it myself. Still it doesn't mean hema situation is right. That's what even DE admitted btw. It's far from just "put a little work in", especially for solo clans or huge clans with a lot of inactive players. Ok, they didn't reduce the price, but now they even did broke another promise about adjusting drop rates or adding more places where mutagen samples can be farmed. In other words, go to the derelicts, losers. Edited January 20, 2017 by ograzzt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisfortune Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, DSkycroft said: If we stop and let this slide,they'll just do it again. Did you read the thread? Also, jesus h christ, can we stop framing DE as bad developers? Is this the only F2P MMO you've played? I mean clearly it is because this game does a lot for the player, and even when costs are high, it's still very doable. The reason people are struggling is because they don't want to kick their inactive members because they love that they have a larger clan. It's not DE's fault, and it's 100% on the players for being stubborn. But that isn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread was to metacomplain about people getting too toxic, and while I can agree with the OP, it still isn't okay to post metacomplaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, JSharpie said: Also, jesus h christ, can we stop framing DE as bad developers? One of the two realizations about myself that made me make this thread. The other being, I don't like viewing other people as hostile, even people like you who I disagree with. I like situations where I can RESPECTFULLY disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
METAL_BAWKSES Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 So, the whole things boils down to DE admitting they made a mistake and refusing to correct it? This is strike one for me at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marasago Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I remember an incident of similar proportions from maybe 3 years ago, where a huge outcry about a wrong decision on DE's part went through the community. DE apologized, reverted the changes and even gave every player a handful of platinum as a token of respect. How the times do change. DE now can probably afford to alienate and lose players, as there's certainly enough new and naive ones willing to trust them. I also think to remember that solo ghost clans were at one time regarded as a perfectly viable way to go about the game. Guess that's no longer the case. Personally, after 3.5 years and 1600+ hours spent with the game I have 10 MS. Of course it's just a single item, easily ignored, but I'm with others here in thinking that the Hema will one day be a requirement for other research. Be that as it may, one thing's clear however: We've reached a point of no return after a paradigm shift for the game. From now on we're supposed to pay up, DE's not even trying to hide that any more. Oh, and to whoever says 'They need to pay their bills!' - well, the company got sold for over 70 million and everyone's on payroll. I'd say they can manage and really shouldn't need to squeeze players for every cent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisfortune Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, TARINunit9 said: One of the two realizations about myself that made me make this thread. The other being, I don't like viewing other people as hostile, even people like you who I disagree with. I like situations where I can RESPECTFULLY disagree I have a very unpopular opinion most of the time, those I disagree with I don't think are bad people. It's a silly little game. In the end, and I've said this before, I don't care. You can respectfully disagree in all situations, and if you feel you can't, the best situation would be to ignore them and move on. This is the internet after all, you have the ability to walk away or block people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 43 minutes ago, Praxxor said: 500 is the bare minimum you'll have to contribute if the amount is fairly divided among the whole clan... This got moved from another thread, im guessing by a moderator, so my argument makes little sense in the context of this thread (to which i have already replied). In any case 500 is still a lot for a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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