HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Katinka]

Okay, 4 pages into 32 and I was about to call it quits and get out of this thread but then I saw this:

On 03/01/2017 at 1:00 AM, Tyrian3k said:

Worst thing is that you can't combine farming for Hema with anything at all. If you don't specifically farm for it, you will never get it.

Are you serious?  You can't combine farming Hema with anything?  Really?  I'm always surprised when I see threads about people not having enough Neurodes, maybe it's because I have plenty from farming Derelicts.  People have also suggested farming Corrupted mods to sell and then buying Hema but that involves going to Derelicts where you get Mutagen Samples.  Derelicts are also a source of Orokin Cells which are required for almost every Prime Weapon.  Derelicts are also a source of wild Kavats to scan for DNA to make your own Kavats.  ODD and ODS can give Relics that might be useful depending on what Primes you still need.  If you have new clan members maybe they need to farm for Nekros.  There's a new rare mod that only drops from Crawlers, maybe go to Derelicts to fight Infested for that.  About half of Maroo's weekly Ayatan missions are in Derelicts.  Yeah, never getting Mutagen Samples without specifically farming them...

I'm not going to mention the things you can farm from Eris because the drop  chance there is low but to say you'll never get Hema without specifically going for it is flat out wrong when there are reasons to go to Derelicts, even for long time players.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 hours ago, Naskoni said:

Also based on seemingly overwhelming positive feedback in regards to increased clan cooperation they intend to do more "crazy clan stuff" in the future as well.

i seriously thought this was just a snarky, sarcastic remark until i watched the stream myself. this is how it felt finding out steve actually said that:

[Zamio]

18 minutes ago, DSkycroft said:

We should just get as many people as we can to message them on social media until they realize that we aren't going to go away.

NVM,that won't work. Steve appears to be ignoring me now on Twitter...

Yes, harassing people doesn't make them want to respond to you, who knew.

[DSkycroft]

3 minutes ago, Zamio said:

Yes, harassing people doesn't make them want to respond to you, who knew.

Not harassing,I was very polite. He just didn't want to hear that people are upset about this I guess.

[Zamio]

Just now, DSkycroft said:

Not harassing,I was very polite. He just didn't want to hear that people are upset about this I guess.

You don't have to be rude to harass. If you spam the same thing multiple times over and over, you're going to just be ignored, nice or not.

[DSkycroft]

Just now, Zamio said:

You don't have to be rude to harass. If you spam the same thing multiple times over and over, you're going to just be ignored, nice or not.

Not spamming either. I very nicely said that there are people who are upset about this and that it isn't "Raining Mutagen" in the Derelicts.

[Master-Nachash]

I really don't see the issue.

There's a pretty simple workaround.

Farm prime sets.

Sell prime sets.

Buy Hema.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Speaking of arguments and all, you do realize that you're effectively straw-manning and attacking everyone (including ChuckMaverick) that's made valid criticisms of DE's handling of Hemagate and what led up to it, right?

Now...let's be productive and avoid resorting to logical fallacies in an attempt to win this debate, mkay?

Please realize I'm not trying to win a debate.  Trying to shoe-horn terms like "logical fallacy" and "straw-manning" into your response to bolster your retort and invalidate my point, WHEN YOU MISSED IT ENTIRELY, is unfortunate.

Valid criticisms based on perception are fine, but presenting them in a productive way is critical.

Edited January 21, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Unholyrequiem]

DE's response to players burning out and talking about how the game is becoming grindier. It's right here folks. You can give them the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to be fair and critical but this is easily the worst possible route they could've taken this but the question will DE release more Hema scale research for the dojo? Since they actually say they should've taken it up 'slower' than they did meaning they don't at all think Hema's cost was a mistake but rather 'too soon'. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[(PSN)Silverback73]

49 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

i seriously thought this was just a snarky, sarcastic remark until i watched the stream myself. this is how it felt finding out steve actually said that:

lol.  You win the interwebs this day!

[Lesbomant]

To be honest I just expected they would make the Mutagen samples an uncommon resource on Eris and people would still complain a bit... instead they did nothing.

What a weird way to deal with feedback, evidently the hema purchases are still going strong.

[Liminal]

1 hour ago, Katinka said:

Are you serious?  You can't combine farming Hema with anything?  Really?  I'm always surprised when I see threads about people not having enough Neurodes, maybe it's because I have plenty from farming Derelicts.  People have also suggested farming Corrupted mods to sell and then buying Hema but that involves going to Derelicts where you get Mutagen Samples.  Derelicts are also a source of Orokin Cells which are required for almost every Prime Weapon.  Derelicts are also a source of wild Kavats to scan for DNA to make your own Kavats.  ODD and ODS can give Relics that might be useful depending on what Primes you still need.  If you have new clan members maybe they need to farm for Nekros.  There's a new rare mod that only drops from Crawlers, maybe go to Derelicts to fight Infested for that.  About half of Maroo's weekly Ayatan missions are in Derelicts.  Yeah, never getting Mutagen Samples without specifically farming them...

You can get some samples without farming them, but we're not talking about getting a few, we're talking about an insane number.
I've got 1500 hours played and barely 750 samples. I've played most of the content in the game (mr23). I've been here since closed beta. I've never farmed samples.
No, I will not ever get the Hema by playing the way I normally play. It requires me to go out of my way and farm them hardcore, otherwise I'll have 1500 samples by the time I've played 3000 hours, in 2020. And those are not enough, because my ghost clan is made up of close friends, most of which are inactive except for me and one other guy. I won't kick them seeing as they may come back, and I won't disband the clan to join a larger one just because that'd be throwing away all the years of work we put into our dojo.

I simply and definitely cannot farm 2500 or 5000 samples by playing the way I've always played. And I won't farm like a mindless drone (something DE claimed they didn't want either... I think their blatant incoherence is what pisses me off the most at this point).
 

So yeah, like I said before, I'll log in every day and alt+F4, but I'm not playing this until I see some sort of improvement.

[DSkycroft]

1 hour ago, Master-Nachash said:

I really don't see the issue.

There's a pretty simple workaround.

Farm prime sets.

Sell prime sets.

Buy Hema.

I have been trying to get Valkyr Prime set for this very reason. I can usually sell it for at least 225.

Edited January 21, 2017 by DSkycroft

[Zenekri]

Whats gonna happen is im gonna stop spending money on this game. 

[Zenekri]

5 hours ago, TaintedReality said:

I don't see the point of this thread. Let the drama die and wait for DE to increase the mutagen sample drops. There's nothing else to do. Talking about it, reopening wounds and rubbing salt in them won't help. Save your energy for the next time they screw up.

Or escalate it further. Like how the vacuum debacle play out.

[TARINunit9]

On 20/01/2017 at 10:10 PM, Valteria. said:

Why should people be calm?

Two reasons. One personal from my perspective, one practical.

Personally, I needed to get the OP I wrote up off my chest

I made this thread asking for all parties, including the devs, to negotiate instead of hurl demands

[Dranaron]

1 hour ago, Master-Nachash said:

I really don't see the issue.

There's a pretty simple workaround.

Farm prime sets.

Sell prime sets.

Buy Hema.

That's not the issue here. The issue is that we as a community need to push back against resource creep before more weapons are released with unreasonable costs. By buying the Hema and weapons like it with plat we're effectively saying that this practice is okay and that DE should release more weapons unobtainable to the general population.

Now, I might be off the mark here, but it seems from the attitude of the community that most people don't have the gun and are unable/in clans that are unwilling to farm it (Like mine which is 32k done out of 500k). If I'm wrong I'd really like to know. But I doubt it.

 

[MobyTheDuck]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

Are you serious?  You can't combine farming Hema with anything?  Really?  I'm always surprised when I see threads about people not having enough Neurodes, maybe it's because I have plenty from farming Derelicts.  People have also suggested farming Corrupted mods to sell and then buying Hema but that involves going to Derelicts where you get Mutagen Samples.  Derelicts are also a source of Orokin Cells which are required for almost every Prime Weapon.  Derelicts are also a source of wild Kavats to scan for DNA to make your own Kavats.  ODD and ODS can give Relics that might be useful depending on what Primes you still need.  If you have new clan members maybe they need to farm for Nekros.  There's a new rare mod that only drops from Crawlers, maybe go to Derelicts to fight Infested for that.  About half of Maroo's weekly Ayatan missions are in Derelicts.  Yeah, never getting Mutagen Samples without specifically farming them...

I'm not going to mention the things you can farm from Eris because the drop  chance there is low but to say you'll never get Hema without specifically going for it is flat out wrong when there are reasons to go to Derelicts, even for long time players.

Flawless logic, but the truth is, unless you are grinding for resources/Healing Return, you wont want to stay long on the derelict.

Corrupted mods and Ayatans, people will just rush in and rush out.

Relics? Derelict is a joke to get them, the time and effort you have to put isnt worth the small chance to get relics there.

Kavats? Maybe you will get a few mutagen samples from stmpoing other stuff while scanning the cats, but its still not worth it.

Healing Return? You are better doing other lower level Infested missions, since crawlers stop spawning pretty fast on derelict.

I cant say for other players, but 99% of my neurodes and cells were from other planets, even more with the resource piles everywhere.

Either way, that isnt the actual problem. The real problem is that its a SIMPLE THING to fix, yet the devs refuse to do so due money. No, its not because a few clans finished the research (which they wont show the percentage) and 'due respect with them' bullS#&$.

If a problem affects 90%+ of your playerbase, a dev with half a brain would size with that huge amount, apoligize and fix said problem. They wouldnt pull an excuse from their bottoms and say we should deal with it.

What is even worse, Steve, the guy which EVERYONE had faith on, just put us aside for money. He basically repeated the terrible PR that happened right after the Hema got released. "Just do derelict". Did THEY do derelict to see how long it takes? With a Nekros and no boosters, you barely get ONE mutagen PER MINUTE.

Obviously, they saw an increase on the purchases with plat for the weapon or boosters, so thats why the plugged their ears and ignored everyone and then said that due 'positive feedback (???)' they will do more stuff like this in the future.

But oh well, why must I wear my fingers here, I'll just pretend the Hema doesnt exists (which pretty much doesnt, I never saw anyone using it, and the ones that do own it are back to their meta weapons, since the Hema is just mastery fodder)

[Rexuz]

I would like to see @[DE]Steve go to the Derelict on Sunday and check how much is raining, and if the rain is worth the 5000 mutagen.

Because I will not trust him or anyone at DE with that answer until they prove it.

[Repligon]

Just did 40 minutes derelict survival run with a clanmate who played as nekros. I had resoure booster from daly reward and resourse drop booster from sortie.

...

~250 mutagen samples. We still need more than 100000 for research.

[wswd009]

pointless grind, more pointless grind, arrrrrrrrrrr

[dashashou]

this seems like what happens when 

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

snip

So yeah, like I said before, I'll log in every day and alt+F4, but I'm not playing this until I see some sort of improvement.

 yea this ^  is where i'm at atm 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Ravel7

[DrFail]

Steve posts on twitter concerning mutagen drops, from a post on reddit.

http://imgur.com/NtK0CH8

As I close on this subject there's really only one thing for me to cover.

I have to say that, moreso than anything else, the part that really rubs me the wrong way is the way PR was handled on this issue. It was like a constant trainwreck. I'm not really going to bother about being particularly political about this right now because I don't have the energy. But, just off the top of my head...

1. Release controversial item right before a massive vacation, putting all of your head staff out of the office and leaving other less-seen staff like Taylor behind to not only work closer to one of the biggest holidays, but also handle this controversial issue on the holidays without much in the way of backup. This item also contradicts something you swore to on a previous item. (Weapons should not be stretch goals)

2. Merge the threads on the issue into one big megathread. Which you then lock.

3. Talk about the issue on a devstream and propose a solution you want to follow. (Increase Eris Drop Rates). Later back out and don't even do that. I hesitate to say they lied about it, but it pretty much feels like they lied about it. Even if it was an awful short-term bandage solution anyway

4. Announce that it's going to be talked about on a devstream to the largest topic on the subject. This by nature makes it sound like a good thing, because if it was a simple no then logic goes you would post "No. This is our final answer and we won't be reviewing it further."  instead of teasing a devstream appearance, getting peoples hopes up.

5. On the actual devstream, treat question as an offhand near the very end. Make a statement that has been repeatedly proven to be less than accurate or desirable. Also apparently revoke the original solution. Surprise!

6. Start merging topics to do with the Hema together for the second time as soon as the stream ends, but also merge in more innocent topics critiquing the research system in general. Creating a big ball of confusing, unreadable mess.

Regardless of whether their reason for not wanting to do it is true and regardless of whether they ever considered the change or not, this should have been handled better. These are professionals. They did not act like it.

I've had the Hema BP since my first post on the topic, but I could see that the situation was not fair to a large number of players, could see that the idea of basing costs off of snooping in player inventories was flawed, and could tell that the way they were handling the situation was a series of rugsweeps. I am very disappointed that, regardless of whether they were ever going to reduce the cost or not, this was handled so poorly. I will not put more money into the game until they prove they can once again handle a situation as simple as this with prompt, consistent, and respectful honesty, rather than a bunch of sweeps, sidesteps,  and stalls..

Edited January 21, 2017 by DrFail

[(PSN)Silverback73]

10 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

on this we can agree 100%. and as a matter of fact steve already called the cost a mistake... but we're waiting for a solution for weeks now already. the argument not being able to just reduce the cost is totally at odds with their EULA and numerous decisions made in the past based on it... i'd really like to believe them, but facts like these make it hard.

I read that great post that tagged the article on resource creep.

DE's best strategy here is to be blunt.

The one thing I can speculate on is that perhaps this is a mandate from higher up that is not covered by creative rights/ownership and may also be covered by an NDA.

The speculative "why"?

Well, obviously revenue, but the strategy may be threefold (again, purely speculative).

1.  Eliminate clan "dead weight" to reduce server load costs to make money by saving money.

2.  Exhaust established players of their extreme resource stores to create a spike in paying potential.  Expect 2-3 more weapons like the Hema to exhaust other excessive resource build-ups.

3.  I see a "Leapfrog Strategy" being implemented here.  Simply put, you'll have time to farm the resource requirements for every OTHER weapon of this nature in the short-term without having to use "stretch-goal" methods once long-term players have had excessive resource stores exhausted.

 

[SilentCynic]

All I want to see is Steve farming up those Mutagen samples in his Sunday stream. Even just his own share of 500 mutagen.

This used to be an insult, but Steve's stream (and don't get me wrong, I am very impressed with them, and I applaud their intention) shows that a lot of the higher-ups in DE don't actually play Warframe. There's a disconnect between the design choices made and the actual ground-level experience players get.

Assuming they're bona fide in their reasoning, and the lack of changes aren't due to some external reason, like postulated in the post above, I cannot think of any reason for this change other than a lack of understanding and experience.