HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[notlamprey]

Just a reminder as we're all being tempted to start reaching into our pockets for the bottles of tactical mud...

We don't want this thread to be closed down for any reason - if someone is showing up just to play the contrarian and nettle the rest of us, letting our frustration get the better of us is exactly what this hypothetical person would want.

If you believe someone is trolling, make sure you remain as polite as possible. You don't actually have to mean any of the polite things you say; just think of it as the cost of "maintaining the discussion space."

It's grating, but I think it's good training for dealing with unpleasant people

[kaliazane]

7 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Anecdotal evidence is useless when we have hard data. The numbers I gave you were real Steam stats, and in 2016 the average number of unique players per month increased by ~25%. What you or I saw is irrelevant.

Player drops were clearly seen on statistic sites aswell.

7 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

No, the point is you keep moving the "point" around and never address what I quoted at first. Now I remember why I stopped replying to you in the previous 150-page Hema thread.
And now you're comparing things that are either easier to obtain, or can be obtained while playing a larger variety of missions to something you have to farm in greater numbers in one single tile, and realistically, only 2 mission types.

 

The point is that you are attempting to debunk simple example, which I can make plenty of instead of focusing at the actual point. You need 3 games to get your 500 req, as stated 100 times before. That's actually faster than neural sensor farming. Now throw at me elaborate argument how your clan is inactive and you refuse to do anything with that fact.

7 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

 

Haha, what? Yeah, that's not how facts work. 

It's the reality, nothing is changing and ignoring their replies wont work.

Edited January 31, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Naskoni]

Just now, notlamprey said:

Just a reminder as we're all being tempted to start reaching into our pockets for the bottles of tactical mud...

We don't want this thread to be closed down for any reason - if someone is showing up just to play the contrarian and nettle the rest of us, letting our frustration get the better of us is exactly what this hypothetical person would want.

If you believe someone is trolling, make sure you remain as polite as possible. You don't actually have to mean any of the polite things you say; just think of it as the cost of "maintaining the discussion space."

It's grating, but I think it's good training for dealing with unpleasant people

Don't be polite, instead use the forum ignore function - hover your mouse pointer over his forum avatar, wait for the context menu to show up and click on "ignore user", select all four categories. Done.

[John89brensen]

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

They also said they will add something interesting to it.

WILL? Future! In the meantime and in the months -key word months- since the mission and the tyleset were releaed, you have nothing to do on kuva fortress assault.. Future promises are just that, promises.

 

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

making rare stances easier to get, credit farming is easier

Say helllo to Sovereing Outcast, and need i remind you that if DE altered some rare stances drops, like Vulpine Mask, is because of the community outrage at the drop rates. Some stances are so easy to get that they are practically endo, some others, are extremely rare. This, and all the rest of your paragraph is off topic, i suggest we go back to Hema.

 

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I think it's worth the grind, I have some videos to back it up too if you want.

Videos of what? How game breaking the Hema is? its a burst fire weapon with a gimmick, dont over sell it.

 

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's a business, of course they want you to spend plat. Main purpose of games like this is to make money, that's how it works

Oh gee, thank you, i was not aware. You know, i wouldnt be so pissed if they actually came and said, "we want you to pay platinum for the Hema or for the boosters". It would be more honest than claiming it rains MS on derelicts. It would still make the Hema a cash grab though. And considering how many other things players are willing to spend plat one, they went with this?

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's resonable if you do it properly, takes 3 games to get 600~, 4 people from same clan doing that in party would have 2400 after 3 20wave ODD. That's almost half of ghost clan req, done by 4 people in less than 1 hour. 

600 in 3 what? ODD to 30? I seriously doubt that you can reach those numbers without boosters, and a meta squad of course. In my experience with a meta squad and no boosters, we only got around 80 MS, doing ODD to 30 roudns. And do not forget that 500 is the cost for a ghost clan, cost goes up with larger clans. And like many people have already said, assuming everyone is interested in farming this rifle, or that clans have 100% activity is absurd.

 

22 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Feel free to play for fun then, nobody forces you to farm for weapon you consider bad.

If they use Hema research to gate future content, then they'll force us to farm. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by John89brensen
corrected sorties for kuva fortress assault.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Just a reminder as we're all being tempted to start reaching into our pockets for the bottles of tactical mud...

We don't want this thread to be closed down for any reason - if someone is showing up just to play the contrarian and nettle the rest of us, letting our frustration get the better of us is exactly what this hypothetical person would want.

If you believe someone is trolling, make sure you remain as polite as possible. You don't actually have to mean any of the polite things you say; just think of it as the cost of "maintaining the discussion space."

It's grating, but I think it's good training for dealing with unpleasant people

It's wonderful training for customer support positions.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, John89brensen said:

WILL? Future! In the meantime and in the months -key word months- since the mission and the tyleset were releaed, you have nothing to do on sorties.. Future promises are just that, promises.

Would I like for them to work faster ? sure I would. In the meantime I can only tell you want I heard is being worked on.

2 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Say helllo to Sovereing Outcast, and need i remind you that if DE altered some rare stances drops, like Vulpine Mask, is because of the community outrage at the drop rates. Some stances are so easy to get that they are practically endo, some others, are extremely rare. This, and all the rest of your paragraph is off topic, i suggest we go back to Hema.

Sovereign is pretty much the only hard to get stance currently, wasnt even Revenant added to rathum ? Stuff like Harbringer together with bunch of other ones was added to titania shrine (whatever its called) aswell. Well you wanted to get into reducing grind, so we did.

4 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Videos of what? How game breaking the Hema is? its a burst fire weapon with a gimmick, dont over sell it.

Videos of how it performs. It's not game breaking, but in my opinion it's the best burst rifle in the game currently. Healing gimmick is just a bonus.

5 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Oh gee, thank you, i was not aware. You know, i wouldnt be so pissed if they actually came and said, "we want you to pay platinum for the Hema or for the boosters". It would be more honest than claiming it rains MS on derelicts. It would still make the Hema a cash grab though. And considering how many other things players are willing to spend plat one, they went with this?

Online games having to make money, that's a shocker I know. It does rain MS on derelicts.

Spoiler

 

7 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

600 in 3 what? ODD to 30? I seriously doubt that you can reach those numbers without boosters, and a meta squad of course. In my experience with a meta squad and no boosters, we only got around 80 MS, doing ODD to 30 roudns. And do not forget that 500 is the cost for a ghost clan, cost goes up with larger clans. And like many people have already said, assuming everyone is interested in farming this rifle, or that clans have 100% activity is absurd.

Look at screenshot, that's 20 wave ODD. With 4 people from same clan that's actually 800 MS after 20 waves, so in less than 1 hour you could do 2400 with 4 people.

10 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

If they use Hema research to gate future content, then they'll force us to farm. 

IF, maybe, half year or year or never.

[kaliazane]

17 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Just a reminder as we're all being tempted to start reaching into our pockets for the bottles of tactical mud...

We don't want this thread to be closed down for any reason - if someone is showing up just to play the contrarian and nettle the rest of us, letting our frustration get the better of us is exactly what this hypothetical person would want.

If you believe someone is trolling, make sure you remain as polite as possible. You don't actually have to mean any of the polite things you say; just think of it as the cost of "maintaining the discussion space."

It's grating, but I think it's good training for dealing with unpleasant people

That time when a guy makes too much sense and you just want to throw a bottle at him.

It was a good reply through, well done.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

That time when a guy makes too much sense and you just want to throw a bottle at him.

It was a good reply through, well done.

You've really not made any sense. All your points have been "suck it up and go do mind numbing amounts of farming because my clan and i did"

[kaliazane]

Just now, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

You've really not made any sense. All your points have been "suck it up and go do mind numbing amounts of farming because my clan and i did"

I'd say 3 games to get 600 samples, which already is more than your 500 per guy req is not "mind numbling amount".

[Liminal]

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Player drops were clearly seen on statistic sites aswell.

No, apart from a few months, 2016 was a lot better than 2015 for Warframe. 25% better actually. 
If you truly want to have an intelligent discussion you should post evidence.

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

The point is that you are attempting to debunk simple example, which I can make plenty of instead of focusing at the actual point. You need 3 games to get your 500 req, as stated 100 times before. That's actually faster than neural sensor farming. Now throw at me elaborate argument how your clan is inactive and you refuse to do anything with that fact.

No, it's not 3 games. You're ignoring 99% of what was posted here. It's 3 games only in the most perfect scenario, and spending money to get boosters. After spending almost 800 bucks on WF, I'd rather not feel "encouraged" to spend more just for faming.

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It's the reality, nothing is changing and ignoring their replies wont work.

The reality is they said they wouldn't change anything. It doesn't mean nothing will eventually happen, that's not a fact. And still, we have a right to let them know we're still not cool with this.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

I'd say 3 games to get 600 samples, which already is more than your 500 per guy req is not "mind numbling amount".

3 games of what ? an hour ? 2 hours ? 20 minutes ? before you claim something, you better be ready to give facts and numbers and proof also. 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

3 games of what ? an hour ? 2 hours ? 20 minutes ? before you claim something, you better be ready to give facts and numbers and proof also. 

They've actually posted results from a 20W ODD that produced a little over 200 MS.  It's on the last one or two pages.

[Fugana]

Just to say that this topic here seems toxic XD 

[KIREEK]

I assume it's the case with Vis4ge, but me and other players are on an end of the spectrum where we are super efficient in most games and we collect most of the things possible in a certain ammount of time, this isn't related with gear obtained but what you do with it.

DE can't calculate the costs based on what we do, otherwise the community would go nuts, the thing here is that i for example adress the issue by thinking how many samples players would have or how much time they would need if the players were 2x less efficient, 3x or even 5x.

I adress other issues such as lack of time to play, not in the mood to do this now, among other things. I end up realizing that the players ask for very low ammounts of gameplay and that isn't exactly what DE wants, they want players to play, you can't simply request such low numbers.

If i get mutagens from doing, lets's say a capture, that's a 200 kill captures, not a 2 kill one, obviously using this ineficient gameplay over the course of 100 captures will have it's impact later on.

You don't want to use boosters? fine.

Don't want to use nekros? Fine

But don't expect a 20 kill survival with a bow and lot's of life support capsules to help you on your hunt for samples, you have to kill guys. Yes it takes more effort, but effort is rewarded.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

No, apart from a few months, 2016 was a lot better than 2015 for Warframe. 25% better actually. 
If you truly want to have an intelligent discussion you should post evidence.

I never even mentioned 2015 anywhere. I do remember posting evidence regarding 2016 somewhere, maybe go through my old posts.

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

No, it's not 3 games. You're ignoring 99% of what was posted here. It's 3 games only in the most perfect scenario, and spending money to get boosters. After spending almost 800 bucks on WF, I'd rather not feel "encouraged" to spend more just for faming.

You are forgetting that boosters can be also obtained for free in game and without them it will be 6 games. It's also not perfect scenario, something tells me that if you really tried you could get 250-300 after 20 waves.

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

The reality is they said they wouldn't change anything. It doesn't mean nothing will eventually happen, that's not a fact. And still, we have a right to let them know we're still not cool with this.

You already did, everything was said in that almost 200 pages one. All these so called "points" I see here, it was all already said there. Basically saying "I'll complain for few months till they change it" is really not a way to go.

[kaliazane]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

3 games of what ? an hour ? 2 hours ? 20 minutes ? before you claim something, you better be ready to give facts and numbers and proof also. 

Spoiler

That's 20 waves, do that 3 times and you have 600

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

Just now, KIREEK said:

I assume it's the case with Vis4ge, but me and other players are on an end of the spectrum where we are super efficient in most games and we collect most of the things possible in a certain ammount of time, this isn't related with gear obtained but what you do with it.

DE can't calculate the costs based on what we do, otherwise the community would go nuts, the thing here is that i for example adress the issue by thinking how many samples players would have or how much time they would need if the players were 2x less efficient, 3x or even 5x.

I adress other issues such as lack of time to play, not in the mood to do this now, among other things. I end up realizing that the players ask for very low ammounts of gameplay and that isn't exactly what DE wants, they want players to play, you can't simply request such low numbers.

If i get mutagens from doing, lets's say a capture, that's a 200 kill captures, not a 2 kill one, obviously using this ineficient gameplay over the course of 100 captures will have it's impact later on.

You don't want to use boosters? fine.

Don't want to use nekros? Fine

But don't expect a 20 kill survival with a bow and lot's of life support capsules to help you on your hunt for samples, you have to kill guys. Yes it takes more effort, but effort is rewarded.

we were playing with the low amounts of farming needed for anything. think the hema grind made anyone play more ? think again . I have personally started to hate the game with the introduction of the new relic system among other things so i'm not going to farm the hema else i'll just stop playing altogether. 

[KIREEK]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

  Reveal hidden contents

That's 20 waves, do that 3 times and you have 600

See this is what i'm talking about, even if you only do a few waves every day, you should have had the samples by now, assuming 20 waves takes like 30 minutes, getting 600 should take 1 and a half hours.

You can't play 1 and a half hours over the course of 3 weeks?

[John89brensen]

14 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Would I like for them to work faster ? sure I would. In the meantime I can only tell you want I heard is being worked on.

Hype and speculation, nice.

 

14 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Sovereign is pretty much the only hard to get stance currently, wasnt even Revenant added to rathum ? Stuff like Harbringer together with bunch of other ones was added to titania shrine (whatever its called) aswell. 

I like how you said currently. But that is my point, currently it is Sovereing, does DE never learn from examples like Vengeful Revenant and Vulpine Mask? This is off topic, i wont reply to this anymore.

 

17 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Well you wanted to get into reducing grind, so we did.

Get off your high horse, or are you claiming to be DE. It was the community that complained about absurdly low drop chances for items integral to gameplay mechanics. 

 

19 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Look at screenshot, that's 20 wave ODD. With 4 people from same clan that's actually 800 MS after 20 waves, so in less than 1 hour you could do 2400 with 4 people.

Meta squad, with booster, so whats your point? You pay for the boosters, or you pay for the weapon, either way, cash grab.

 

21 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

IF, maybe, half year or year or never.

Well, in a previous post DE Taylor neither confirmed nor denied Hema as a gate to future content, so i leave it to your interpretation.

 

I wonder what do you hope to accomplish here? Your arguments have been said by a few others, and convinced no one. But you are dead set on replying to everyone and defending Hema research to the end. So i ask again, what do you expect to get out of all your white knighting?

[Liminal]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

I never even mentioned 2015 anywhere. I do remember posting evidence regarding 2016 somewhere, maybe go through my old posts.

I won't go through your posts to find something that maybe works as evidence. The game's viability is not measured month to month, and even though 2016 was uneven, it had the 2 most active months in WF history (and the highest average peak players), with November having the highest peak ever at 68530 players. One month before the hema.

There's nothing at all that indicates WF was dying.

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You are forgetting that boosters can be also obtained for free in game and without them it will be 6 games. It's also not perfect scenario, something tells me that if you really tried you could get 250-300 after 20 waves.

So a 100% active and populated clan, farming in a 4 player group with a meta-farming comp that just happened to get a booster daily reward for free is not a perfect scenario? Well, I wonder what the perfect scenario is then, it must be the dev build or something.

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You already did, everything was said in that almost 200 pages one. All these so called "points" I see here, it was all already said there. Basically saying "I'll complain for few months till they change it" is really not a way to go.

Nah, it totally is. Many of us are not okay with an item that costs 1000% than anything before it so we won't let them forget, lest they do it again.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

I won't go through your posts to find something that maybe works as evidence. The game's viability is not measured month to month, and even though 2016 was uneven, it had the 2 most active months in WF history (and the highest average peak players), with November having the highest peak ever at 68530 players. One month before the hema.

There's nothing at all that indicates WF was dying.

Just like I wont go through tables of numbers just to convince you of something. If you refuse to believe in something that was clearly visible, that's your choice. I even remember threads popping up about it, and youtubers talking about it.

3 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

So a 100% active and populated clan, farming in a 4 player group with a meta-farming comp that just happened to get a booster daily reward for free is not a perfect scenario? Well, I wonder what the perfect scenario is then, it must be the dev build or something.

Farm it without boosters then, problem solved. I'm loving all this "But I have to do it without boosters and without farming squad and without party and super fast" Whats next ? Without joining missions perhaps ?

5 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Nah, it totally is. Many of us are not okay with an item that costs 1000% than anything before it so we won't let them forget, lest they do it again.

Argument that something costs way more than anything else in the past is non argument at all. If that had to be requirement then game would remained the same and simply died with time. Just because you could research everything previously with basically no cost, doesn't mean that it should always be like that.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Ladies and gents, might I suggest we evolve OP's topic and discuss the possibility that what we are experiencing is the 3rd Generation business model in the lifecycle of Warframe as a game.

The defining characteristic is "Timesink Saturation" through resource inflation and content growth.

The Hema is currently the "hot button" issue, but is representative of a new phenomenon that hits established players hardest: Exclusionary Choice.

We're very quickly getting to the point where it will be impossible to "do it all."

It becomes imperative on DE's part to make sure the choices we DO make equal a rewarding gameplay experience to justify spending in other areas.

The fundamental choice in this phase: those who refuse to invest real-world dollars must accept that they will only experience part of the game's content.  F2P now means choosing partial content or choosing not to play.

 

Thoughts?

[John89brensen]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

The defining characteristic is "Timesink Saturation" through resource inflation and content growth.

The Hema is currently the "hot button" issue, but is representative of a new phenomenon that hits established players hardest: Exclusionary Choice.

We're very quickly getting to the point where it will be impossible to "do it all."

Very interesting post. However, i suggest you start a new thread to discuss this, instead of going off topic here. 

[kaliazane]

14 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

I like how you said currently. But that is my point, currently it is Sovereing, does DE never learn from examples like Vengeful Revenant and Vulpine Mask? This is off topic, i wont reply to this anymore.

Yes currently, and thats the only one right now.

 

15 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Get off your high horse, or are you claiming to be DE. It was the community that complained about absurdly low drop chances for items integral to gameplay mechanics. 

Wait what ? You wanted to go over reducing grind, so I gave you multiple examples and your response is for me to get off my high horse ? Nice.

18 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Meta squad, with booster, so whats your point? You pay for the boosters, or you pay for the weapon, either way, cash grab.

The point is that you can easily do it if you put some effort into it.

19 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Well, in a previous post DE Taylor neither confirmed nor denied Hema as a gate to future content, so i leave it to your interpretation.

Let's wait a year then and not use speculations as arguments.

19 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

I wonder what do you hope to accomplish here? Your arguments have been said by a few others, and convinced no one. But you are dead set on replying to everyone and defending Hema research to the end. So i ask again, what do you expect to get out of all your white knighting?

I don't expect to convince you, if someone have blinders on then no amount of convincing is going to work. No matter what proof I provide, there will always be new imaginary issue created. You quoted me first, didn't you ? Don't be surprised that I'm debunking your mostly false statements then. I could ask same question, what do you expect to accomplish here ? You got multiple official replies that nothing is changing, maybe it's time to let go already.

[Flirk2]

19 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

That's 20 waves, do that 3 times and you have 600

23 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

You can't play 1 and a half hours over the course of 3 weeks?

Only don't forget to buy boosters, and don't fall asleep. Because Nekros, Hydroid, Trinity and speed Nova that I see you recommend with that picture is about as boring a setup as one can get.

Still, imagine you are just starting to play the game and you need 5000 for your solo ghost clan? You'll need to do it not 3 times, but 25. 8.3 hours of pure ODD farming with boosters.

Good luck finding people to play like that.

You seem to not understand the concept of ''500 per person is calculated on the WRONG assumption'' that was pointed out multiple times here. In actual fact a clan full to the brim with farmers exist only in dreams of game developers. Real people don't work that way. Real people work closer to the pricing model that was in effect before Hema. 20 minutes of focused farming with boosters gave enough to do a research on a solo ghost clan. An hour without boosters. Now we suddenly need 100 times more. And there are some people who think it's reasonable. I wonder, if there will be enough of those people to keep the servers running in 6 months?

 

But it's alright.

It's not like I'll try to sway you by logic, estimations, calculations, charts or common sense.