Mutagen Samples, Oxium, Kuva, Discrepancies, and how players who went "Hardcore" should get Reimbursement

[Jackviator]

So, let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we? Specifically, to the initial releases of Riven Mods, Vauban Prime, and other such things. Then, let's take a look at some of the discrepancies I've noticed over time when it comes to resource costs on research and build costs and how DE has responded to community concerns.

And for everyone who doesn't have the attention span or time to read through this wall of text, the main idea/ TLDR of this whole post is basically addressed at point #4, so just scroll down, start reading from there, and you should do just fine understanding my point.

Now then... First, Rivens, aka the silly reason I've had to mark this thread with the spoiler tag.

• 1:KUVA

Remember when Rivens were first announced? Chaotic time, that. People were buying their "GODLIKE" Dread/Tonkor/Simulor/Soma Prime/Quanta rivens for thousands of platinum, the forums were going ballistic (as usual), and the whole situation was best summed up with one word that rhymes with "Clustertruck" (which I recommend playing, incidentally; good game, that one). Anyhow...

Once everything had calmed down a bit, it became plain that one of the main problems with the new system was that the cost of re-rolling some of the mods was downright ludicrous past a certain point. This, DE put a cap on the cost of "re-rolling" the Riven mods, after people had gotten tired of farming 10k+ Kuva to re-roll a mod once, and that cap hasn't been changed since; it's still sitting at 3500 Kuva. ...Why am I telling you this? Well, the reason will become self-evident later on.

• 2:OXIUM

Remember when Vauban Prime was released, and the stir it caused? 14k Oxium it took, to craft one of his parts. Fourteen. Thousand. Quite the hike in Oxium costs compared to almost anything else that requires it in the game, considering one can get at most 30ish oxium from an osprey, and that's with a booster. Then, once DE received quite a lot of feedback on the matter, they halved the resource cost to 7k Oxium. Still an absurd amount, but not quite as absurd, because DE listened to the public outcry, and DEDrew even responded thusly:

"When Vauban Prime Access was released with a 14k Oxium building requirement we realized, as players ourselves, that these values were extreme. After reading through your comments, the decision to reduce the Chassis cost by half was made and as a result now requires 7k Oxium to craft. While you’ve expressed that this is still a substantial amount, we were happy to hear that the majority of you feel this to be a fair compromise...

(A few lines later) We’re listening carefully to player concerns about new content and resource inflation...

• 3: MUTAGEN SAMPLES

And now, finally, we come to the elephant in the room.

A certain blood-sucking gun recently introduced into the game has caused one of the biggest uproars yet, all due to the Mutagen Sample resource costs of larger clans, and when prompted to fix the costs to be less prohibitively expensive (aka absolutely ludicrous) DETaylor responded thusly:

"Let's get to it: The requirements for the Hema are intentional."

...Later on, DESteve said this: "Clans that have sucked it up and went harcore to get this thing have earned it and do not deserve for us to say 'ah just kidding, it's less now.'"

VVV (source)

https://clips.twitch.tv/de_steve/TenderTigerRalpherZ

• 4:THE PROPOSAL

So, now we finally reach my main point, something some might call "A Modest Proposal" of sorts.

Because of these recent statements by DE staff in regards to the Hema, and how they wish to respect the actions of those who "sucked it up and went hardcore to get this thing," by not reducing the resource costs, or increasing the drop rates...

...I believe that Scripts should be run to refund the 7k extra Oxium spent on Vauban's Chassis costs before the reduction in how much it cost, and to return the Kuva amounts that exceeded 3500 Kuva, spent on Riven Mods by those that re-rolled the mods when the Kuva costs were uncapped, leading to people spending thousands upon thousands of Kuva on rerolls.

If DE staff are truly adamant about this issue, and if the words of DESteve are anything to go by, I believe that DE should respect those who "sucked it up and went hardcore to get" those two things. All those who payed the initial 14k Oxium cost, and all those who rerolled Rivens for more than 3500 Kuva, should be REIMBURSED for "sucking it up and going hardcore to get" what they wanted, be it Vauban Prime or a good Riven Mod. It's only fair, to match their reaction to the idea of reducing the Mutagen Sample costs on the Hema. To, shall we say, "put their money where their mouth is."

Plus, I know that these types of Scripts can be run for things like Credits and Platinum, as they have reimbursed those that unknowingly spent credits on breaking down mods into Endo and other, similar matters/mistakes in the past. So why not here, for resources?

And... If this doesn't happen, if no script is run, well... I think it's fair to say that the Mutagen Sample requirements to research the Hema should then, instead, be reduced, so as to fall in line with previous behavior and outcomes when similar situations to this have occurred. Of course, this would only happen if indeed they are truly, actually, "listening carefully to player concerns about new content and resource inflation," as they say they are.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Jackviator

[MagPrime]

Agreed.

Running a reimbursement script is reasonable and is in line with their desire for "fairness"

Edited January 22, 2017 by Noamuth

[NeoRetro10K]

Claiming to keep current requirements out of "respect" to past effort seems to be DE's new policy. To instate a policy is to imply consistent adherence to it, no?

Therefore, if they wanna stick to their guns, then by god, they ought not do it only halfway.

+1 for a well-thought-out post.

Edited January 22, 2017 by NeoRetro10K

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Agree with this 100%

[Reifnir]

5 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Of course, this would only happen if indeed they are truly, actually, "listening carefully to player concerns about new content and resource inflation," as they say they are.

Haven't you heard?

Apparently, it "rains" Mutagen Samples in derelict, and current amount is fine (according to Devstream 86). 

Yes, even if you need to farm 50,000 between some 4-5 active players. 

The problem doesn't exist in the first place, therefore, nothing to fix/refund!

[Siekier]

 

Great post Jack, very well thought out and I can see you put in time and effort into creating it.

Sadly, as you said it yourself...

7 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Of course, this would only happen if indeed they are truly, actually, "listening carefully to player concerns about new content and resource inflation," as they say they are.

 

I think it's safe to assume the devs won't do it.

I've pretty much given up on them at this point.

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, Siekier said:

 

Great post Jack, very well thought out and I can see you put in time and effort into creating it.

Sadly, as you said it yourself...

 

I think it's safe to assume the devs won't do it.

I've pretty much given up on them at this point.

Realistically, yeah. I know this won't happen in a million years. the Hema research costs will stay the same to discourage people from farming the resources and instead to just shell out to buy it out of frustration (convenient how that works, eh?), the Script will never be run to reimburse those who overdrew at the Kuva and Oxium banks, etc.

But all that does is prove one of the not-too-subtly hidden points of this thread: 

They're not listening to us anymore.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Jackviator

[Etharien]

First off, interesting ultimatum you are trying to propose to DE. During the course of your whole post i sense the tone that you really don't care about kuva and oxium reimbursements, but are rather trying to catch them in their own hypocrisy, thereby getting them to reduce mutagen sample requirements. I'd say it's subtle, but it really isn't.

To your "modest proposal", I would be really surprised if they had the data that confirmed who built the vauban chassis before and after the reduction, and the kuva amounts before and after the first reduction AND the second hard cap. So basically what you are asking for is reduction in mutagen samples research, or them doing perhaps the impossible (Like i said, i'm not sure if they have the per account stats necessary to reimburse players). Hardly reasonable. However, if they do have the metrics for each account then i am all for a reimbursement.

[Jackviator]

3 minutes ago, Etharien said:

I'd say it's subtle, but it really isn't.

Yeah, I know it ain't. VVV

1 hour ago, Jackviator said:

But all that does is prove one of the not-too-subtly hidden points of this thread: 

They're not listening to us anymore.

As I myself noted, I wasn't trying to be subtle, per se... Just trying to get a point across/call them out on what they've said vs what they've done, in a roundabout way.

I want to be proven wrong in my assumption that this won't happen. Do I think I will be? Nope. But if it does happen, and a script is run, at least that way we'll then know that when they say something, they'll try to be consistent in their actions and not contradict themselves.

7 minutes ago, Etharien said:

I would be really surprised if they had the data that confirmed who built the vauban chassis before and after the reduction, and the kuva amounts before and after the first reduction AND the second hard cap. So basically what you are asking for is reduction in mutagen samples research, or them doing perhaps the impossible

To be fair, they've done this type of thing before (running Scripts to restore things to the players, that is). They've done this when people had done things like unknowingly spending credits when converting mods into Endo and other such mistakes, as I noted in the OP.

So I don't think it's unreasonable to think they keep tabs on what people craft and use their resources on in this game; it's what I'd do in their shoes to gauge if something I introduced was popular, and should thus be built upon, tweaked, refined, etc. So in essence, I don't think it's as impossible as you might think.

[toafarmer]

If you want them to pay attention to what you write, just suggest a new deluxe skin xD

Jokes aside, it is all about forcing people to buy stuff with plat, which is a terrible move. I would gladly spend money, as I did until Hema was released, if I didn't have this "being milked to the last drop" feeling I have now. They have other ways of making money, such as Prime Access, skins and hurrying things up. People who want things right now will just buy them. Not because the research cost is abusive, but because they want to show the new shinnies without having to wait for 3-4 days.

If they want people to bury resources, which I think is more of an excuse than a fact, there are other ways of doing it. Example: instead of having to grind 500k mutagen samples for a weapon or 14k oxium for a frame, they could make people/clans upgrade their labs/foundries with resources and then be able to build new stuff, like they did with kavats. So lets say they release 20.0.0 (followed by hotfixes 20.0.1 and 20.0.2 within the next couple of hours). With it, there are, lets say, 3 new weapons and 9 more to come. Also a shinny new frame and 2 more to come. Then the clans must upgrade their labs and the players must upgrade their foundries for a high (but not offensive) ammount of resources. After the upgrade, they can build everything for cheap/reasonable costs until 21.0.0 (and 21.0.1/21.0.2 that will certainly follow hours after). 

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

31 minutes ago, Etharien said:

First off, interesting ultimatum you are trying to propose to DE. During the course of your whole post i sense the tone that you really don't care about kuva and oxium reimbursements, but are rather trying to catch them in their own hypocrisy, thereby getting them to reduce mutagen sample requirements. I'd say it's subtle, but it really isn't.

To your "modest proposal", I would be really surprised if they had the data that confirmed who built the vauban chassis before and after the reduction, and the kuva amounts before and after the first reduction AND the second hard cap. So basically what you are asking for is reduction in mutagen samples research, or them doing perhaps the impossible (Like i said, i'm not sure if they have the per account stats necessary to reimburse players). Hardly reasonable. However, if they do have the metrics for each account then i am all for a reimbursement.

They've done a few reimbursements before so i'm sure it's within their grasp. Let's hope anyway

[Etharien]

25 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Yeah, I know it ain't. VVV

As I myself noted, I wasn't trying to be subtle, per se... Just trying to get a point across/call them out on what they've said vs what they've done, in a roundabout way.

I want to be proven wrong in my assumption that this won't happen. Do I think I will be? Nope. But if it does happen, and a script is run, at least that way we'll then know that when they say something, they'll try to be consistent in their actions and not contradict themselves.

To be fair, they've done this type of thing before (running Scripts to restore things to the players, that is). They've done this when people had done things like unknowingly spending credits when converting mods into Endo and other such mistakes, as I noted in the OP.

So I don't think it's unreasonable to think they keep tabs on what people craft and use their resources on in this game; it's what I'd do in their shoes to gauge if something I introduced was popular, and should thus be built upon, tweaked, refined, etc. So in essence, I don't think it's as impossible as you might think.

I was more talking about the subtlety of not caring about kuva or oxium, rather than them not listening. I do in fact think they listen, they just don't vocalize as much as people would like. They have run scripts but it's usually right after an error occurs. Steel charge was given fair warning, relics was shortly after they change, syndicate medallions after lost syndiicate rep., affinity amp auras were given legendary cores. DE is usually more than fair with reimbursement to players.

[AerinSol]

So they can't(won't) screw over the players that researched the Hema; can't(won't) reimburse them.

Then DE. What the hell do you call what happened with the Key to Relic conversion stealing away 100's of 'hardcore' farming from your players?

Reduce the mutagen sample requirements and "reimburse" those who have researched it already.

[Jackviator]

2 hours ago, AerinSol said:

Then DE. What the hell do you call what happened with the Key to Relic conversion stealing away 100's of 'hardcore' farming from your players?

Iirc a script has already run to give back the relics of all those who had their Void keys turned into less relics than they had before.

...Unless you're referring to the aspect of having one's massive key collection suddenly made worthless outside of trace farming in regards to getting new prime parts when they come out, which I can definitely understand and relate to.

[AerinSol]

3 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Iirc a script has already run to give back the relics of all those who had their Void keys turned into less relics than they had before.

...Unless you're referring to the aspect of having one's massive key collection suddenly made worthless outside of trace farming in regards to getting new prime parts when they come out, which I can definitely understand and relate to.

The last and final script only gave a set amount no matter how many keys one had previously.

[Jackviator]

Just now, AerinSol said:

The last and final script only gave a set amount no matter how many keys one had previously.

Really? Huh. Didn't hear about that particular tidbit... Well, if that's the case, yeah I can definitely agree that it most certainly rendered the efforts of plenty of people completely moot.

[Ciaus]

There are many many ways they could repair this situation somewhat effectively. 
Some of which you astutely point out.

But I think the issue is that they are not interested in changing this. Irrespective of player response and reasoning, there seems to be an attitude of no backing down on this, or making any concession. The atrocious way it was handled on Dev Stream 86 (RAINING. I have a lot of words for that and none of them are child-friendly) indicates this unfortunately. 
DE was doing very well, arguably the most successful F2P out currently, BEFORE this decision. Understanding their own monetization model is IMPOSSIBLE without them also understanding the mindset of a player within the game, and I think that disconnect has now become apparent. 
On PRINCIPLE, I want to EARN every ingame item I can. Something resource and time based (as opposed to pure RNG like mod drops) like Clan Research especially. I spend plat on cosmetics regularly. The more I play in a month, the more inclined I am to buy things to make my screen look pretty. The more I play the more I spend on forma, catalysts and trade. 
In trying to force someone like me to pay for a WEAPON or FRAME, I get pushed away. I can. I have the plat there right now. But I won't. Earning things in a reasonable manner is an ingame milestone and significant piece of gameplay for me. It took me like 40 runs of that Sexy Grineer Science-Brawler to get all of Equinox, but that is almost reasonable to do so solo in a day or two, and can be done with any decent weapon or frame. And I know after about a day I'll very likely have all the parts. It's a lot of game time, arguably a worse piece of grind in the game, but not out the water. And can be done while playing the game and with some modicum of variety. Clearly a far far cry from that ODD nekros hydroid speedva only 1 frame even attacking for 20+ hours s***. 
Some players will never, ever be happy to spend on certain things that feel like ingame progression. These players are still a huge part of the Warframe economy and spending system however, and DE just illustrated they don't yet acknowledge or understand that. 

[Wurster]

The most time I solely farmed the Hema for my clan. I wouldn't feel betrayed, if they would lower the cost... Theres no point in denying that the cost is just an insane amount! And pls DE, don't put such a high cost up again... Vauban, Knux and Sybear are one thing, but Hema was just way too much...

Lastly I agree with OP completely...

[ChuckMaverick]

21 hours ago, Jackviator said:

So, let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we? Specifically, to the initial releases of Riven Mods, Vauban Prime, and other such things.

And for everyone who doesn't have the attention span or time to read through this wall of text, the main idea/ TLDR of this whole post is basically addressed at point #4, so just scroll down, start reading from there, and you should do just fine understanding my point.

Now then... First, Rivens, aka the silly reason I've had to mark this thread with the spoiler tag.

Significant and pertinent though your points may be, I believe you've omitted the biggest one.

All the issues you've mentioned relate to time spent playing the game, and the effort that equates to, but there is a bigger commitment that players have made.

Specifically, when rivens were first released and before riven disposition was introduced, people bought (with RL money) platinum in large amounts to trade for powerful rivens for their favourite meta weapons. The same rivens that were then very swiftly nerfed into shadows of their former selves.

If you're going to 'honour' investment by players, then surely RL cash investments deserve to be top of the pile?

 

(Note: In case it's not clear, I'm not in favour of 'honouring' any of these cases. Allowing your creative freedom to be held hostage by the decisions and actions of players, or past questionable design decisions, is not good for the future of your game.)

[Jackviator]

20 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Allowing your creative freedom to be held hostage by the decisions and actions of players, or past questionable design decisions, is not good for the future of your game.)

To be fair, neither is trashing your reputation with the playerbase by pulling stuff like this. Stuff like that tends to cause losses in things like general player trust, and often the players themselves if they decide they've had enough, which isn't good for the game either.

And I get what you're saying with the Platinum costs initially charged by players for Rivens, but real-world money and the decisions that are made with it is a whole 'nother can of worms that deserves its own thread, (which I'm not sure I'm personally qualified to write, because it would probably descend into arguments full of "legalese"/lawyer language regarding Caveat Emptor and all that).

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I can not invest in a company, to rent a product, they advertise only to have said product changed then told it was supposed to be like the way they changed it all along..just kidding we could change it again? Punishing players for inept incompetent game design, updates, reworks, nerfs.. Thats not somthing Im confident investing time or money in.

Edited January 23, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Khratos26]

I wholeheartedly agree with the op.  

Another hema issue of today is this: quite a few clan's already 'bought' the mutagenosaurus with platinum directly from other players.

 I can buy the hema with platinum from the market and enjoy it for myself. I can put forward the same sum , even 50% more for the whole clan to have it.

Dojo research requires other dojo research done, which means hema , regardless if bought from market or not, MUST be researched for both the future of any clan members who can't afford the platinum cost as well as the future of further research that might need it. I would've gladly payed the cost of platinum if the hema was a market item instead of dojo research regardless if it was the allegedly  500 cost (per clan mate , what a joke ) or 5000 cost ,just to conserve any hard earned resources.

And thus the plat goes back into player's hand and circulation instead of going back to the system. How much do they benefit from this? I'm sure if this would be their goal ,they would've given more plat on their devstreams. 

Now I'm sure there's plenty of clans out there that have banded together, brothers in arms, true companionship till the void takes ya. An event that brought people together or... tragedy. (bear with my dramatic moment)

Downsizing to a lower tier to reduce the platinum costs, i mean mutagenosaurus costs .   Kicking active members with the goal of reinviting them back after 3 days and 3 sordid nights of toiled research. Hit by the 60 day cooldown period of restructuring and people left out in the cold and rain. 

I am not a prisoner in one of those horror story chinese gold farming facilities, faming on hours end , with boosters ( which involve another 40 platinum x4  + 40 for the drop chance booster in a full squad). I am feeling rather shackled after the whole experience. And while I've said my piece quite a few  times, I wonder if it's that wise to poke the bear...

 

 

[Jackviator]

18 hours ago, Ciaus said:

There are many many ways they could repair this situation somewhat effectively. 
Some of which you astutely point out.

But I think the issue is that they are not interested in changing this. Irrespective of player response and reasoning, there seems to be an attitude of no backing down on this, or making any concession. The atrocious way it was handled on Dev Stream 86 (RAINING. I have a lot of words for that and none of them are child-friendly) indicates this unfortunately. 
DE was doing very well, arguably the most successful F2P out currently, BEFORE this decision. Understanding their own monetization model is IMPOSSIBLE without them also understanding the mindset of a player within the game, and I think that disconnect has now become apparent. 
On PRINCIPLE, I want to EARN every ingame item I can. Something resource and time based (as opposed to pure RNG like mod drops) like Clan Research especially. I spend plat on cosmetics regularly. The more I play in a month, the more inclined I am to buy things to make my screen look pretty. The more I play the more I spend on forma, catalysts and trade. 
In trying to force someone like me to pay for a WEAPON or FRAME, I get pushed away. I can. I have the plat there right now. But I won't. Earning things in a reasonable manner is an ingame milestone and significant piece of gameplay for me. It took me like 40 runs of that Sexy Grineer Science-Brawler to get all of Equinox, but that is almost reasonable to do so solo in a day or two, and can be done with any decent weapon or frame. And I know after about a day I'll very likely have all the parts. It's a lot of game time, arguably a worse piece of grind in the game, but not out the water. And can be done while playing the game and with some modicum of variety. Clearly a far far cry from that ODD nekros hydroid speedva only 1 frame even attacking for 20+ hours s***. 
Some players will never, ever be happy to spend on certain things that feel like ingame progression. These players are still a huge part of the Warframe economy and spending system however, and DE just illustrated they don't yet acknowledge or understand that. 

This person gets it.

Well f***ing said.

(Also, lol'd at the "none of them child friendly" bit; I pretty much had the exact same reaction on my end when that was said/tweeted).

[Ciaus]

7 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

(Also, lol'd at the "none of them child friendly" bit; I pretty much had the exact same reaction on my end when that was said/tweeted).

Yeah was a bit of...


And thank-you, I think I'll add that stuff to the OP of my other thread. Is relevant. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ciaus
Clarity of wtf I was saying XD

[Jackviator]

 

On 1/22/2017 at 9:38 PM, Khratos26 said:

Downsizing to a lower tier to reduce the platinum costs, i mean mutagenosaurus costs .   Kicking active members with the goal of reinviting them back after 3 days and 3 sordid nights of toiled research. Hit by the 60 day cooldown period of restructuring and people left out in the cold and rain. 

 

Yup. The effect this whole clustertruck has had on Clans has pretty much only been negative. And honestly, the grind burning people out or clans kicking people to downsize is actually not even the worst thing I've heard about this whole thing. No, that would be this: 

Once certain clans have unlocked the Hema, some Warlords have decided to profit off of it by allowing people to join the clan temporarily to purchase the BP... as long as they fork over 20-50P for the privilege of doing so.