Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[Evanescent]

I think giving players the ability to rebind it would help.

[paragasu]

Edited February 18, 2017 by paragasu

[Nokah]

7 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

True, but that extra step of work wouldn't be needed if they didn't add the mandatory AoE.

It's still perfectly usable.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It forces a touch of clunkiness they could definitely fix with a tap/hold system for Banish, but it works in the proposed scenario fine. Adding a bit of complexity that makes things just a touch harder to deal with is fine. It doesn't ruin the powers' use in that scenario.

[Midrib]

Don't get me wrong props to DE for taking player feedback into account.

but you still had a thread of almost 200 pages with most of them explaining how ridiculous the Hema was and how the requirement should be changed or the drop rate increased, and that was ignored and instead we got an "Honor" response, yet a few weeks after, Secura lecta's credit boost was nerfed, i didn't see them honor any players then, or when they nerfed a lot of other weapons and frames, or when Rivens that people paid thousands of plat for got nerfed to the ground....Twice.

Or when people have been begging for the archwing controls to be changed ever since it was released and only now they discuss changing it.

it just seems rather inconsistent when they decide to listen and when they don't.

[Nokah]

3 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Covert lethality dagger?

Tell me your weapon and build, and i'll test if it's actually so deadly in the simulacrum.

 

Saving hostages is banish's main strength. and AoE would take that away.

Covert Lethality: Extra damage on finishers, or outright kills them if undetected.

Someone pointed out that they swore they saw stealth bonuses when Limbo attacked paused enemies - which is not only plausible, since they described it as "paused their AI" and could actually mean they outright make the AI basically deaf and blind - but would make his Banish -> Stasis combo amazing for taking out groups of enemies using his assassination style.

That would be how it'd make Limbo's Banish extremely useful. He 1hits every Banished target that doesn't resist Stasis. Only downside is that it would take a few seconds to eliminate each enemy, making it difficult in big swarms.

[KaeseSchnitte]

The grapples are not homing. They are predicting your path, any change of your trajectory will make them miss. And which enemies use hitscan weapons? I don't know of any. Not to mention that, even if we disregard that 90% of the time you dodge there is no enemy around that could be a threat to you, what is the problem with not dodge rolling and simply accepting that you'll spend 0.5 seconds longer in your mission?

Plus, there is no real reason why each frame should get anormal dodge.

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

 

Hey look, he needs to use his 2nd to make his 1st usful now. Garbage.

Lol

[fatpig84]

I hold judgement until it appears.
If it works properly it could even be significantly faster.

[2Peter3Nine]

6 minutes ago, Nokah said:

It's still perfectly usable.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It forces a touch of clunkiness they could definitely fix with a tap/hold system for Banish, but it works in the proposed scenario fine. Adding a bit of complexity that makes things just a touch harder to deal with is fine. It doesn't ruin the powers' use in that scenario.

Tap/hold for single target/AoE would work best.

But the AoE makes banish worse for me becouse there are two ways I use it.

banish a hostage so enemies can't hurt them,

and banish one enemy at a time and do a downed finisher attack on them while they are on the ground.

Limbo isn't meant to fight hordes at one time, he's meant to single-out the hard to kill enemies, and take them down.

[Nokah]

And a linear roll that you can't redirect in any capacity until it finishes... would avoid their trajectory prediction. Definitely.

"There is no real reason why each frame should get a normal dodge" isn't a particularly compelling argument. Is there any reason why Limbo would have power incontinence and be unable to control if he enters the Void or not when he makes a dashing motion?

There's nothing wrong with adding some extra complexity to him. Especially if that complexity would ALSO let them modify how he interacts with his allies.

[KaeseSchnitte]

8 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Covert lethality dagger?

Tell me your weapon and build, and i'll test if it's actually so deadly in the simulacrum.

 

Saving hostages is banish's main strength. and AoE would take that away.

Any weapon with moderate damage and good status chance in combination witha stealth/gas build.

[2Peter3Nine]

6 minutes ago, Nokah said:

Covert Lethality: Extra damage on finishers, or outright kills them if undetected.

Someone pointed out that they swore they saw stealth bonuses when Limbo attacked paused enemies - which is not only plausible, since they described it as "paused their AI" and could actually mean they outright make the AI basically deaf and blind - but would make his Banish -> Stasis combo amazing for taking out groups of enemies using his assassination style.

That would be how it'd make Limbo's Banish extremely useful. He 1hits every Banished target that doesn't resist Stasis. Only downside is that it would take a few seconds to eliminate each enemy, making it difficult in big swarms.

But that's only if melee damage can apply while they are stopped.

If the damage dosn't happen till stasis ends, then there is still plenty of room for error,

especially on lagframe.

[KaeseSchnitte]

They can't grapple you while you are rolling. And your argument is in no way more compelling than mine. And adding complexity where none is needed is wrong, especially if it comes at the cost of being more clunky to use.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

Let me start off by saying Limbo Rework is totally amazing. It's awesome that DE can take something good and turn it great. Let's look at some of the positives of his Rework

Rift Walk is now his passive. (Does this means no duration?)

Banish is now a small aoe (Great so you don't have to spam it. Well you still do just not as often now.

Rift Walk now pauses enemies and projectiles in the rift. (I'm assuming this combo with banish will have a small if not no duration on bosses. Also hope that there will be a special ui to let us know if we are close to reaching our cap)

Rift Surge is now a radical charge of all the enemies in the rift, when killed in the rift. Will arc lightening enemies on the opposite plane. Enemies that are killed that is surged but not in the rift will create mini pockets of cataclysm. (Correct me if I was wrong. This sounds like a great ability to play with. Especially if your really good with him creating mini pockets of time throughout the battlefield. Stopping enemies that steps into them. This is also great for teammates that wanna avoid dmg for awhile.)

The Flaw 

is his roll redesign. It's more of a slide now. It's very awesome now that it's his way of entering the rift and leaving. Makes picking up drops on the run way more smooth than it is now. But a lot of players involve roll as a way to move very quickly around. Now that has been taken away from limbo. Not necessarily a problem because he is avoiding dmg when in the rift. 

But that could get some getting used to not trying to roll as a combo in movement to get around quickly with the others. Only problem I see is now limbo will fall behind the squad when moving around the battlefield. 

Honorable Mention

Now banished enemies no longer have that God awful "white flames". Don't know about anyone else that plays Limbo but I absolutely hated that.

Thoughts?

Well a simple fix to the roll is for the ability to be a double tap instead. If you tap roll again while rolling, it will make Limbo dash in the middle of the roll to send himself to the Rift. It would make it so much easier for Limbo players like me to just roll in and out of the Rift. 

[Nokah]

1 minute ago, General_Durandal said:

Limbo isn't meant to fight hordes at one time, he's meant to single-out the hard to kill enemies, and take them down.

As he is currently, that's correct: Limbo doesn't cope well with hordes.

However, that isn't a useful warframe. Warframe's encounter design is "Enjoy this incredibly high amount of enemies!" Single-target managing shouldn't be all his kit is good for. I know Cataclysm is sort of his secondary choice for this, but his kit is essentially "CC one powerful enemy and destroy them, or CC a target location with a Frost-ish bubble" when you use it against enemies.

The rework is meant to make him useful against hordes. He went from "I only pick out the big boys, and sometimes I deal with the small fry" to "I can deal with big boys *and* small fry, as long as I play my cards right". Stasis is basically the best CC the game has ever had - a literal time stop ability - and it combined with the AoE nature of the new Banish suddenly makes him quite powerful.

[Nokah]

3 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

But that's only if melee damage can apply while they are stopped.

If the damage dosn't happen till stasis ends, then there is still plenty of room for error,

especially on lagframe.

Melee damage can apply when they're stopped. We saw as much in the gameplay footage.

[-Amaterasu-]

[Voidforged]

Just now, Evanescent said:

I think giving players the ability to rebind it would help.

 

Just now, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Well a simple fix to the roll is for the ability to be a double tap instead. If you tap roll again while rolling, it will make Limbo dash in the middle of the roll to send himself to the Rift. It would make it so much easier for Limbo players like me to just roll in and out of the Rift. 

These are both fantastic solutions.

[Nokah]

11 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

They can't grapple you while you are rolling. And your argument is in no way more compelling than mine. And adding complexity where none is needed is wrong, especially if it comes at the cost of being more clunky to use.

The idea that we can't have things be slightly more complex to allow for versatility is the idea that we shouldn't have passives because they're generally either complicated or unhelpful.

Why would, say, double-tapping Shift be a clunkier way to activate Rift Dash than just a single roll? If the sensitivity was tuned correctly, it'd be easy to learn and only present a problem to people who hammer the button, which is really at that point their own fault.

Even moreso, why would adding a way to differentiate a normal roll and a rift roll be a bad thing? If this were added to the game, it could be implemented so it worked for any Warframe that was under the effects of Banish, which would suddenly solve a ton of the usability problems people say when they group with Limbo. "He makes me unable to hit enemies, and if he banishes me, I can't pick up loot!" Making it so that players could do willing toggling on the feature using the same button prompts Limbo does would create functional unity and fix a huge problem that people have with Limbo, and make him way more fun to play with, which is one of his major flaws: if the Limbo on your team is a jerk, he stops being fun to play with.

Take away his sole control over if someone is Banished or not, and suddenly Limbo has a lot less troll potential and he's just a lot more fun to play with. Heck, even if Banish no longer dropped allies directly into the Rift, that would mean that those allies would have to know how to enter the Rift in order to leave it, which would suddenly make his banishes a lot less punishing to players who don't know that you can roll out of it.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Nokah
phrasing tweaking

[TwevOWNED]

26 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Get's into the game and goes to the simulacrum.

Let's assume he's using the strongest melee weapon.

Fragor Prime, Crushing ruin, primed pressure point, primed fury, primed heavy trauma,

blood rush, body count, true steel, organ shater, berserker.

I'll test on a level 100 bombard exumas.

It took 115 hits to kill it.

He got up and hit me by the 5th hit.

If I didn't have quick thinking, and primed flow, I would have died.

Atterax: 6 Spins

Galatine: 12 seconds of hitting with Cleaving Whirlwind

Gas Lecta: 3 Spins

Gas Lesion: 3 hits

We must have different definitions of strongest melee.

[Evanescent]

Let me get straight to the point.

1) Banish losing its precision:

It's better to be able to interact with many enemies at once but there is also the very real fact that it might not let you use it precisely. You might not want to take everything in an AoE sometimes.

If crosshair is not aimed at an enemy let it function in an aoe. If it is aimed at an enemy let only that enemy be banished.

 

2)Limbo losing mobility with rolling gone:

New void dash looks awesome but rewatching footage I also realised you wouldn't be able to do some nice parkour moves such as rolling after a bulletjump that lets you cover a nice bit of distance, or roll through damage or AoEs such as a caustic eximus' fire wave.

Double tapping roll button will let you roll as normal.

 

3)Overloading the rift:

Without further information I can't make statements, but I hope there is a UI indicator that gives you warning. Let enemy projectiles not count in the limit. 

Ideally I would want there to be no projectile limit but there is a very real technical barrier. 

[Evanescent]

I made a topic in response, linking it here:

 

 

[KaeseSchnitte]

The only change I'd suggest to what was shown on the devstream would be to change the 2 into not stopping projectiles, but slowing them by 99%. By that, you could mitigate some of the load the client has to handle, as shots would slowly but surely hit something and despawn. It would also give teammates of Limbo the option of just hugging the enemies with their guns to hit them.

Edited February 18, 2017 by KaeseSchnitte

[Nokah]

1 minute ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

The only change to what was shown on the devstream would be to change the 2 into not stopping projectiles, but slowing them by 99%. By that, you could mitigate some of the load the client has to handle, as shots would slowly but surely hit something and despawn. It would also give teammates of Limbo the option of just hugging the enemies with their guns to hit them.

I mean, keep in mind there's an effective limit on how many projectiles Limbo can stop.

If you were actively keeping allies from shooting enemies using Stasis, they could just fire enough bullets your Stasis broke. Alternatively, they could just melee the enemy to death. Either one works.

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

My biggest worry is the AOE Banish affecting an ally that got too close. This could make the rage worse, because now you have Limbos who try to be team players getting chewed out for missing that you were flying into that group of enemies you just wanted to Banish so you could hit them.

The rework also does very little to address the loot problem, since a Limbo still wants to stay in the rift as long as possible. Certainly, it makes it easier to slip in and out to get the loot, but it doesn't address that need in the first place.