Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[PsiWarp]

8 minutes ago, felipe3402 said:

As far as I know, You can collect resources inside the Cataclysm, But only the cataclysm. (Banish won't work)

Watch this part of the Devstream again. I'm almost sure that this is not a bug or something not intended.

Right, throughout the stream pickups inside Cataclysm can be collected. When she was in the Rift via Dash, no picking stuff up. It's a good change of course, just wish that devs would mention it as a change that is going to stay :)

[Archenius]

On 2/21/2017 at 4:53 AM, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

No only things in the rift are affected and yes that is a lot of bullets I agree but if you banish  multiple targets and haven't used Stasis and dispensed justice then and no offense ment but you are doing it wrong. I'm not saying it's ment as a ability you just leave on and they aren't sure about the Cap and even if they are I can at least understand that they are trying not to make him OP. I just make suggestions to add ideas maybe they like one who knows. As I to have my concerns. 

You know this is going to be painful for you if PC gets the limbo rework 1st and you have to wait for a few months to get the said rework

Edited February 23, 2017 by Archenius
spelling

[PsiWarp]

Yeah, the strobe lighting should go. The increased brightness is also eye-straining for prolonged rift walking.

I think during Devstream 88 the shadow effects around Limbo were different from now, looked more eerie than usual to me. I also noticed that his hat, Syandana, weapons, and armor attachments still do not have the rippling energy effect Limbo's body has when inside the Rift, which is a bit nitpicky on my part but does break the immersion for me a little.

[PsiWarp]

4 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I think people shouldn't worry too much about the Stasis cap. If anything, its for game stability than actually capping Limbo's power. Its probably gonna be a big number. I wonder how it will affect sentinels shooting deth machine rifle, though. You can't control that.

I think I heard from AGGP's coverage on Devstream 88, he talked with Rebecca after stream (Second Stream #11 please DE!) and hitscan bullets (and melee hits) would not be frozen, but the damage is stored by the enemy until it unfreezes then takes the damage. Sound like it'll work like Mind Control and Parasitic Link.

See here @2:05 mark

Edited February 23, 2017 by PsiWarp

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I always thought the rift looked cool - a washed out cel-shaded version of the world. The white fire effect can go, though. 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Has anyone thought how the new Limbo will function in conclave or any PvP? Imagine the new Rift Dash doesn't use energy (because its a passive.) Do a rift dash at the start of the match and you're untouchable until you declare it. And the stasis, what happens if you stasis players in PvP?

[Khlamydia]

Speaking of the white fire of blinding eyeball intensity, maybe a more relaxed visual effect like say, a thin glowing aura that matches your energy color around those affected. Or perhaps something more visually interesting and distinct like say a slight "screen tear" like effect near the center of the body for any targets in the rift. As if they were "glitching out" near the middle of their form, designed to be small and subtle where it wouldn't obscure skilled play such as headshots. Something made to be noticeable, interesting, and visually distinctive without causing confusion or creating a visual mess that blocks vision.

[ReyGanso]

Rework still leaving Leembo as a Niche Frame.

 

Not supportive enough to be a good supporter or be bettee than others.

 

Still squishy, and even tho freezing time sounds good, for real, WHO will freeze foes, then bullets, take a selfie and kill the goes? why waste all that time when you can easily boom enemies from the very beginning.

 

Cool mechanics no doubt, but totally useless.

 

My money is that he still will be called for reworks by the community.

 

De please, make this guy a good aoe supporter or something worth the time.

 

Make hydroid the johny depp it is supposed to be.

 

For god sake Oberon its supposed to be a paladin (healing supporter fairy tanker or 2h master), now hes just an ugly deer with fairy wings on the relay. Best DX skin, sadly hes unplayable.

 

 

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

I've been thinking and I think my only issue with Stasis, more than anything, is why do we even want bullets frozen in air?

I understand it'll look cool, I've watched the Matrix, but I don't know of any situation where freezing projectiles helps accomplish anything but to create lag/on-screen clutter (which the rift already has plenty of) and slow the game down just as much. I'm fine with a hard limit, I'll adapt, we all will, but at least give us one with unnecessary issues.

Feels kinda like they spent so much time figuring out what they could do that they never considered whether they should

[(XBOX)PhilfyRatBagZ]

I like the proposed changes to Limbo's kit, and look forward to using them......but

The one thing that just about everyone hates is the Cataclysm bubble!

Nothing we do with colours makes it better...if anything it makes it worse, the blur it causes is intense and real hard to see through.

 

I made a suggestion a while ago about making it a visual effect on the ground, then if anyone entered that area they would show the same effect as being banished. This would make game play much better visually and less stress on players eyes. The changes are only visual and the effects would remain the same, so it would be an easy change that most players would praise!

I really hope you consider this, but I doubt you will even see this....thx thou

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zashukitsune said:

I've been thinking and I think my only issue with Stasis, more than anything, is why do we even want bullets frozen in air?

I think what they should do is treat normal bullets the same way they're going to treat hit scan weapons and melee weapons during stasis.

If an enemy is frozen in stasis and you shoot it with a projectile, the projectile will hit the target but the damage will be recorded instead of applied. The total recorded damage will only be applied when stasis is deactivated. Its not as cool looking as floating bullets but its not going to hurt the game's frame rate.

[m101011]

all they need to do is make it so players cant be targeted when limbo is banishing stuff to the void. 

that and fix the bug that makes it so your in the void from a gameplay mechanics sense in that you cant interact with pickups or revive until you roll in a direction. run half way across a map to revive some one and stand there pressing x 3 times then they die. it happens even when limbo isnt in a group sometimes. i want to say its mag who sometimes triggers it just like trinity seems to confuse shield charger

[main_antagonist]

22 hours ago, Khlamydia said:

Hey DE,

I know your hard at work making Limbo all shiny and new and changing his kit and thats wonderful. We really do appreciate it as a community. But, as the Devstream announced Limbo is about to be spawning multiple cataclysms all over the place and also AOE using rift powers now. In the interest of players seeing a Limbo on their public team and not rage-quitting the instant they spot him because they don't want to deal with the frustration.... I'd like to put in a request for a new Limbo augment while your working on it.

 

What if the Main/Big Cataclysm worked the same as it does now - you can't shoot in and you can't shoot out you can only attack on the plane you are currently on.

And the Small/mini Cataclysm lets allies and yourself shoot enemies inside the rift but they can't shoot out.

This way the Big Cataclysm works for defence and control for a specific area, the small ones that spread are CC so the enemies can't attack us but are vulnerable :D

Think about it like this ...

Big Cataclysm = Another plane/dimension entirely

Mini Cataclysm = Half the enemies body mass is in the rift so they can take damage, their weapon is entirely within the rift therefore they can't shoot us or melee us.

(Half of the mass that makes up the body of your enemies is placed in the rift so they can still take a portion of damage ... in theory this would deal damage equal to half of what you dish out, even if it's only half of any damage dealt the CC would be amazing without inconveniencing the squad.)

EDIT: Another way of thinking how this works, the mini cataclysm works like a cover bubble, the enemies can't shoot out we can shoot in.

Even if they can walk in and out of the mini bubbles we can use them to break their line of sight and intercept their projectiles to stop their shots hitting us. 

When the enemy is inside the mini cataclysm it would be as if you inverted/reversed a frost snow globe they can't shoot out but we can shoot in.

If the enemy is outside the mini cataclysm their shots are sent into the rift unable to pass through and hurt us but our shots can penetrate through without hassle #spaceninjamagic

I like the idea of having these little bubbles around the place and strafing around them using it as cover, running into one if I see a bombard rocket approaching me, knowing that if enemies enter the tiny bubble with me they still can't do damage to me like they can in the larger cataclysm because they could function differently 2 different types of rifts which I explained earlier.

Yet another way of thinking about how this idea works would be if you had a magnetize bubble from mag that didn't pull enemies in, doesn't snare enemies, doesn't amplify your damage but acts like a volt shield that you can shoot through by the enemy can't. 

I hope that explains the concept I'm trying to get across the mini cataclysm could be a really good thing if done in a way that benefits gun fights.

Edited February 23, 2017 by main_antagonist

[Ironlixivium]

I love the ideas for the rework, I'm just hoping for a couple things. Mostly being able to do everything while within cataclysm. As in interactions and all. After that, and this is the thing I don't think many people in De want, but I have to ask:

Can limbo, and limbo alone, interact with objects while "rift walking". Not pick up items, but hack/activate life support. I think this not only makes sense from a balance pov, as otherwise limbo is basically the squishiest frame ever (when interacting), but also he would be able to "send the console/LS to the rift" temporarily to allow him to interact. Other frames would have to exit the rift first of course, but limbo should be able to IMO.

In addition I really think that people should be able to hold items (datamass, power core, etc) while in the rift but when dropped it should "fall" out of the rift.

As one last huge QOL request, for limbo's new second ability, that freezes time in the rift PLEASE add a meter that shows how full the rift is, even without using the second ability, so that I don't go full range and insta-crash the rift on cast, leaving me helpless.

I'm so glad limbo is getting some TLC, please give my suggestions some serious thought. Thank you.

[PsiWarp]

These are really good changes, and I fully support them to be included or at least experimented with before his rework is finalized.

However, I can see that the first and second suggestions go against their previous design direction with the Rift Plane, though this has changed somewhat especially with the unmentioned change to Cataclysm allowing pickups to be collected inside it.

For example, trying to interact with objects outside the rift while Limbo is in Void Dash (or Banished allies). The Rift Consistency changes from a while ago made it so players cannot hack consoles, cannot call elevators, and cannot activate Life Support Capsules while in the rift. While I don't necessarily agree with these, I can see what DE was trying to accomplish: placing the players in a vulnerable state as an additional tradeoff to using these objects, a state which already exists with players holding datamass in their hands and dropping it if they enter the rift.

So for your suggestion on the first point ("rift walking"), I think a change that aligns more with the above design direction is to just bring Limbo out of his Void Dash and ending Banish on allies if they try to press X to interact with objects outside the rift. This change also automates object interaction, condensing it to only 1 action for players, so Limbo doesn't have to Void Dash out of the rift, and banished allies don't have to roll or backflip first before being able to use objects.

Remember during Devstream 88 when Rebecca was scrambling to the Life Support Capsule and tried to activate it while in Void Dash? Yeah, that moment of hesitation needed to remember how to exit the rift wasted precious seconds, and I've seen it many many times for players while Banished or inside Cataclysm. You just don't know these things because there aren't any hints in-game, either the Limbo tells you or you go wiki it yourself. Which is also why I hope they add some visual/text hints for players inside the rift (that are not too annoyingly big and appearing too often).

The second point ("hold-onto-item") would go hand-in-hand with my suggestion up above. The only things I would add are that you don't drop your datamass when moving into or out of Cataclysm, and any object interaction inside Cataclysm (and by extension, the mini-Cataclysms from Rift Surge) would be how it normally is in the Material Plane... because the objects are also inside the Rift Plane.

Sorry for the wall of text, hopefully it gets my point across x)

Edited February 23, 2017 by PsiWarp

[Azamagon]

I think you have nice requests (and some might need drawbacks, more to that later), but I STILL think it won't be enough to make him smooth and risky/trolly, after the rework.

Here's my quick list of QoL of what I think he needs:

Passive: Stand still and "roll" = Stationary rift toggle. To actually DASH with rift dash, you need to move before rolling

Banish: Tap = Single target banish and can put the target to rift/reality, back and forth (like now). Hold = AoE banish, but can only put the targets to the same state which Limbo is in.

Stasis: I'd change the penalties to this.
* Give him a cap of how many ENEMIES can be put in stasis. Cap affected by Power Strength.
* As soon as you put more enemies than the cap allows, then the duration of the Stasis starts to deplete faster (and depletes faster the more past the cap you go)
* Allies (Limbo included) do NOT have their shots paused (seriously, it makes the ability so bad!). Enemies do though.
* EDIT: Remove the Rift-lockout thing entirely. With the above changes, that's unneeded.

Rift Surge: Get rid of the random mini-cataclysms. Make the ability "Accelerant"-esque in nature: Recastable, buffs Limbo (more damage done when he attacks in the Rift) and hurts nearby enemies with the already shown rift lightning, which also debuffs them (so they explode on death).
That makes it useful at all times against all enemies, regardless of their (or your own) rift-state, since the lightning+explosions would work cross-rift.

Cataclysm: Banishing enemies in the Cataclysm should expel them from Cataclysm. Enemies shouldn't be able to leave Cataclysm on their own (similar to how Tether Grenades work, so just soft CC). Holdcasting Cataclysm while a sphere is active should shrink its size rather rapidly (Less need to build negative Power Range).

Rift in general: Limbo and allies should be able to pick up any kind of loot freely when in the Rift (it's just an annoying mechanic, and if you want logic, why can't we banish small those items, powerful void-wielding Warframes as we control, if we can still hold onto our weapons?). Limbo and allies should be able to activate life support (and interact with similar things, like Ramparts etc) and hack panels while in the Rift, but if doing so with a Banish on them, then the Banish wears of faster (as SOME form of drawback. Limbo doesn't necessarily need a drawback though, due to unlimited duration Rift Dash). Doing so from Cataclysm should be done without penalty though, as enemies can enter and harm you there anyway.

 

With that, I think he'd definitely have a better, smoother and less ally-harmful place in Warframe.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Azamagon

[MrJhintama]

I liked the rework.....*inhales*...However! why did they feel the need to add in the "overload" system to his timestop? The game will literaly punish you for being too good. you will not be able to timestop enemies without fearing that the overload will turn off all your abilities for a period of time.  Hey DE heres a salution. instead of doing that! how about just adding in a range limit to the timestop instead. Seriously your just giving me more reasones to quit warframe since now your ruin one of my main frames....

[PsiWarp]

Also, it would be awesome if Banish works like Void Dash, as in players can jump out and jump into the rift by rolling, while backflips still completely cancels the ability for those who don't want the dimensional hopping during rolls.

Then make sure Limbo can't forcibly unbanish you if Banish is active on you. It could be a good opt-in-opt-out system that benefits both Limbo and his team.

Like, Limbo can accidentally banish you all he likes, then not having to babysit you to let you use the Rift Plane. You get to choose the Rift or Material Plane by rolling, and won't have to be annoyed by a Limbo constantly banishing and unbanishing you if he feels like trolling.

Edit: By the way, they should fix Banish not properly applying to enemies inside Cataclysm. They take damage and fall down, but don't get debuffed by Banish properly so they won't stay in Rift when they walk out of the bubble.

Edited February 23, 2017 by PsiWarp

[PsiWarp]

Ok, I may be very late on this but the possibility is bothering me... I know they haven't fully explained the way Stasis' cap exceed downside will work, and that they are only playing around with it, but nonetheless it is worrisome:

So since the Rift Plane collapses on you if the max cap of enemies and projectiles frozen in time is reached or exceeded, would that mean any enemies you used Banish on would be instantly unbanished, and your Rift Surge mini-bubbles and your Cataclysm would just pop? And you as Limbo would be forced out of Rift Dash and can't dodge again or use any of your powers for a short time?

I may be blowing the downside out of proportion here, but that's the sense I got from their brief explanation. It's like having a Nullifier timebomb in your pocket that triggers if you try to freeze too many things...

So to that I have one more thing to say:

DE please no :(

Edited February 23, 2017 by PsiWarp

[AceOfCayde]

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but if I remember correctly, one of the major points of the limit on stasis is to keep toasters from crashing. I'm no programmer or game designer, but from what they were saying in the devstream, it sounds like stasis takes up a lot more processing power and such than most other Warframe abilities.

 

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* Allies (Limbo included) do NOT have their shots paused (seriously, it makes the ability so bad!). Enemies do though.

^ Something like this could probably improve the performance of the ability and decrease the toaster-crashing probability significantly, and honestly it just seems so unnecessary.

Otherwise, some good suggestions have been made, and I'm excited to see what the final results are.

[felipe3402]

1 hour ago, PsiWarp said:

Ok, I may be very late on this but the possibility is bothering me... I know they haven't fully explained the way Stasis' cap exceed downside will work, and that they are only playing around with it, but nonetheless it is worrisome:

So since the Rift Plane collapses on you if the max cap of enemies and projectiles frozen in time is reached or exceeded, would that mean any enemies you used Banish on would be instantly unbanished, and your Rift Surge mini-bubbles and your Cataclysm would just pop? And you as Limbo would be forced out of Rift Dash and can't dodge again or use any of your powers for a short time?

I may be blowing the downside out of proportion here, but that's the sense I got from their brief explanation. It's like having a Nullifier timebomb in your pocket that triggers if you try to freeze too many things...

So to that I have one more thing to say:

DE please no :(

DE Please, Make the downsides of the stasis not too anti-fun ;-

I'm with you on this one...

[felipe3402]

10 hours ago, main_antagonist said:

What if the Main/Big Cataclysm worked the same as it does now - you can't shoot in and you can't shoot out you can only attack on the plane you are currently on.

And the Small/mini Cataclysm lets allies and yourself shoot enemies inside the rift but they can't shoot out.

This way the Big Cataclysm works for defence and control for a specific area, the small ones that spread are CC so the enemies can't attack us but are vulnerable :D

Think about it like this ...

Big Cataclysm = Another plane/dimension entirely

Mini Cataclysm = Half the enemies body mass is in the rift so they can take damage, their weapon is entirely within the rift therefore they can't shoot us or melee us.

(Half of the mass that makes up the body of your enemies is placed in the rift so they can still take a portion of damage ... in theory this would deal damage equal to half of what you dish out, even if it's only half of any damage dealt the CC would be amazing without inconveniencing the squad.)

EDIT: Another way of thinking how this works, the mini cataclysm works like a cover bubble, the enemies can't shoot out we can shoot in.

Even if they can walk in and out of the mini bubbles we can use them to break their line of sight and intercept their projectiles to stop their shots hitting us. 

When the enemy is inside the mini cataclysm it would be as if you inverted/reversed a frost snow globe they can't shoot out but we can shoot in.

If the enemy is outside the mini cataclysm their shots are sent into the rift unable to pass through and hurt us but our shots can penetrate through without hassle #spaceninjamagic

I like the idea of having these little bubbles around the place and strafing around them using it as cover, running into one if I see a bombard rocket approaching me, knowing that if enemies enter the tiny bubble with me they still can't do damage to me like they can in the larger cataclysm because they could function differently 2 different types of rifts which I explained earlier.

Yet another way of thinking about how this idea works would be if you had a magnetize bubble from mag that didn't pull enemies in, doesn't snare enemies, doesn't amplify your damage but acts like a volt shield that you can shoot through by the enemy can't. 

I hope that explains the concept I'm trying to get across the mini cataclysm could be a really good thing if done in a way that benefits gun fights.

And think the Mini-Cataclysm's created by the Rift Surge is made for a simple reason, Them your stasis thing get's on the cap, You cannot enter on the rift plane again with the roll. So, With that, I Think the way is "Trying" to stay on the Mini-Cataclysm while your Stasis power is recovering. (That's what I Understanded on the Devstream)

[Ironlixivium]

Well the reason I wanted him and him alone to be able to activate and hold things while inside the rift is because he's incredibly squishy without the rift. I really think he NEEDS this otherwise in high level missions a limbo just can't hold or activate stuff. most other frames have something, I mean, loki's invis, rhino's iron skin, etc. etc., but you basically have to stop using all your abilities to interact with things... it just seems very harsh from a balance perspective IMO, no other frame has to do something like this... even banshee can use silence and sonar, to still get a damage boost and some short cc.

EDIT: forgot to mention that I only wanted it for him was because I think it would add an unneeded and very powerful level of defense to any other frame that could just be admin-like in the rift. Especially something like an ember.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Ironlixivium

[main_antagonist]

5 hours ago, felipe3402 said:

And think the Mini-Cataclysm's created by the Rift Surge is made for a simple reason, Them your stasis thing get's on the cap, You cannot enter on the rift plane again with the roll. So, With that, I Think the way is "Trying" to stay on the Mini-Cataclysm while your Stasis power is recovering. (That's what I Understanded on the Devstream)

I understand that but a lot of people don't like the idea of having them around, if they were tweaked in the way I'm suggesting maybe people might learn to love them if it had more utility :D

[PsiWarp]

1 hour ago, Ironlixivium said:

Well the reason I wanted him and him alone to be able to activate and hold things while inside the rift is because he's incredibly squishy without the rift. I really think he NEEDS this otherwise in high level missions a limbo just can't hold or activate stuff. most other frames have something, I mean, loki's invis, rhino's iron skin, etc. etc., but you basically have to stop using all your abilities to interact with things... it just seems very harsh from a balance perspective IMO, no other frame has to do something like this... even banshee can use silence and sonar, to still get a damage boost and some short cc.

EDIT: forgot to mention that I only wanted it for him was because I think it would add an unneeded and very powerful level of defense to any other frame that could just be admin-like in the rift. Especially something like an ember.

Oh don't get me wrong, i would love this very much since it makes no sense why Limbo can't hold onto a datamass he is tightly gripping with his hands, plus I know just how much of a death sentence it is to be stationary while outside the rift. The holding part I really hope gets added, but for the console-banishing... considering that Spy 2.0 and LoR Trial were the likely reasons for DE to enforce no-object-interaction-consistency, I just find it not very probable to be added. Though who knows, they've been back and forth with their decisions before, maybe they'll cut us dapper hackers some slack ;)

On a related note, I really want to know if we can press X to use objects inside Cataclysm and Rift Surge mini-bubbles. That can't be far behind since Cataclysm allows pickups to be collected, right? If objects are allowed to be used when inside any bubbles, I can think of a way to get what you want in a few steps:

1. Rift Dash into rift.
2. Banish an enemy or a group of enemies close to the console you want to hack.
3. Rift Surge.
4. Unbanish enemies to make mini-bubbles around the console.
5. Get into position to hack, activate Stasis to freeze any enemies coming near you, hack in peace while staying in the rift.

Complex way to achieve a simple result, but it does get things done x)