Did Valkyr Prime's trailer just confirm the sentience of warframes?

[Serafim_94]

7 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Well as much of a "prototype" for the rhino warframe was as the cockle-burs were for Velcro was.

Basically they just took what was already formed naturally and ran with it.

There's nothing natural about Infestation to begin with. It's not some fancy virus or something. It's swarm of nanomachines. Which were created with purpose of manipulating organic matter into desired form. It's basically craftsmen tool. Too bad somebody #*($%%@ it up and allowed it to over-reproduce.

While "original rhino" definitely falls in category of "infested" as "created with technocyte", I'm willing to bet it was fully controlled creation.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Serafim_94

[Evanescent]

'LESS THAN THEIR HUMAN SEED'

Yeah, they made them from humans. S#&$ just got real.

[EmptyDevil]

1 hour ago, Zanoza-chan said:

We had enough clues for both their sentience and infested nature.
1) specters maybe are just uncontrolled warframes
2) Second Dream spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

warframe releases from Hunhow's blade itself... and we can see the bloody parts under the metal armor inside the wound

3) War Within spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

"control the Golden Maw like a warframe" - sounds like warframes can have their own will, becuz the Golden Maw definetly has it

4) Helminth saying interesting things... and after that many of infested boss' replicas become more clear

5) another spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

Chroma saying "all hush and empty in a womb of the sky" - sounds like his Operator died for some reason, and Chroma left uncontrolled

6) Silver Grove spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

Silvana was the greatest Infestation specialist... and she was brought to work on Titania

and more, and more

The Acolytes are another big clue. Their transmissions are like Stalker's in that when played in reverse, an actual message can be heard instead of unintelligible whispers. Even before playing in reverse, the text can make you think.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

2 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The Acolytes are another big clue. Their transmissions are like Stalker's in that when played in reverse, an actual message can be heard instead of unintelligible whispers. Even before playing in reverse, the text can make you think.

My assumption is that they are no different from Stalker; a person who underwent Transference to inhabit a frame, until their original body withered and they became a ghost trapped in the frame. Similar to what happened in TSG.

It's possible they are autonomous frames, but... that doesn't seem right to me. What motivation would frames have for the Acolytes' actions? They have no attachment to the Orokin. Nothing to avenge.

[Blakrana]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Umm... didn't the Corpus create the Sentients in the first place. 

It's implied that the Archimedian Perintol is responsible for the entities that would go on to become the Sentients, in the Crewman Synthesis. At that time, corpus seems to be implied to refer to either a family unit, or perhaps a guild.

We don't get the beginnings of the Corpus as we know it till after the Collapse, noted in the Anti-Moa Synthesis.

16 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Lovely and well thought response. :) 

Regarding the Tenno tamed part. While in text can be very ambigous, especially without official punctuation, the way it is said can be really important in deciding what exactly is meant. As we all know, we can say a lot of different things with the same exact words but different , I can't remember the exact words in English, intonation and emphasis. 

At least in the trailer, it sounded to me as he was refering to the warframes rather than the tenno themselves. But this as well may be subjective. 

I agree that it does sound to be focused on the Warframes, indeed this is the first trailer where Ballas even mentions the Tenno directly at all in the dialogue; even Banshee's trailer, closest he gets is 'Void demons' or such. However...ambiguity being what it is, I imagine we're going to see a lot of 'yes/no' around how it's meant to be interpreted. Still...it's information. Poetically couched information open to interpretation, mind, but information nonetheless. We're just going to have to see this being built off of in some capacity.

Though...I think I will give one thing to the discussion: much of Orokin technology in general skirts the line between organic and mechanical, living technology such as the Arboriforms being their motifs. Whatever the Warframes are, it's certainly fitting for Orokin trends that there's some kind of melding of these aspects, though the resulting existence doesn't seem to...least at this time...necessarily function independently. It might, but right now...too little hard evidence to say 'yes, they can function independently'.

[EmptyDevil]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

My assumption is that they are no different from Stalker; a person who underwent Transference to inhabit a frame, until their original body withered and they became a ghost trapped in the frame. Similar to what happened in TSG.

It's possible they are autonomous frames, but... that doesn't seem right to me. What motivation would frames have for the Acolytes' actions? They have no attachment to the Orokin. Nothing to avenge.

I think it is a little more complex than just getting trapped and becoming a Warframe. I have many thoughts and a theory about it that I've been mulling around for awhile. I'll share it after work.

[DatDarkOne]

25 minutes ago, Dewsitine said:

In the trailer, I think the frame itself took the main controls while the signal was being blocked and activated val's ulti as a fail safe mechanism to allow the main system,operator, back online. Basically it "woke up" when the transference signal was being blocked or hindered to a severe degree that one of its primary functions was to protect itself and/or get the signal back online which was done by activating Val's ult as she is immune while that ability is activated.

That is my thinking as well.  Which some what goes back to what I said in my earlier post.  I can't wait for DE to shine more light on this.

[NightmareT12]

I thought Steve has been teasing us about Warframe sentience for 1+ year now...

Update 20/Next CInematic Quest should have all answers for us though.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

58 minutes ago, Wolfsfang202 said:

thats completely ignoring my point.

How did they get the sentient arm to begin with.

PREDICTION

Tyl Regor formed an alliance with the Sentient in exchange for technology to perfect Grineer cloning techniques. We will face genetically perfect Grineer, led by a genius engineer, allied with the most dangerous faction known to the Origin System.

...and if not, you're welcome DE.

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, aligatorno said:

"They burn with our lost desires, lost instincts. Tenno tamed, but only just. Cast and haunted as game, trapped and tortured,yet they remained Animals. "

We had lots of clues pointing to them being infested, and we had that scene at the end of SD. Is this the first time we got something conclusive about their sentience? 

Question: Do you actually mean "Sentience" that is, the capacity for feelings? Which is discreet from "Sapience" The capacity for reason and the attribute of "person-ness"?

Because it seems as though what is being suggested is the use of living infested material which we pretty much already knew, nothing specifically past, say the infested charger, or crawler in intellect.

So it look like DE are retroactively casting the Tenno as masters of mind-control eugenic dog-fighting.

Of course if they're suggesting actual "Sapience" for Warframes then that pretty much makes the Tenno mind-rapists, and the game becomes snuff pokemon.

Wheeee, retroactively casting player character participating in the game's primary progress mechanic as worse than Mengler

Fun stuff /s

Edited March 12, 2017 by SilentMobius

[aligatorno]

2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Question: Do you actually mean "Sentience" that is, the capacity for feelings? Which is discreet from "Sapience" The capacity for reason and the attribute of "person-ness"?

Because it seems as though what is being suggested is the use of living infested material which we pretty much already knew, nothing specifically past, say the infested charger, or crawler in intellect.

So it look like DE are retroactively casting the Tenno as masters of mind-control eugenic dog-fighting.

Of course if they're suggesting actual "Sapience" for Warframes then that pretty much makes the Tenno mind-rapists, and the game becomes snuff pokemon.

Wheeee, retroactively casting player character participating in the game's primary progress mechanic as worse than Mengler

Fun stuff /s

Sentience, as they are like animals. 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

3 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I think it is a little more complex than just getting trapped and becoming a Warframe. I have many thoughts and a theory about it that I've been mulling around for awhile. I'll share it after work.

I was oversimplifying it, yeah. I don't think a metaphysical essence, a "soul" whatever, is transferred into the frame. Rather, I think sensory data is wirelessly transmitted between somatic links, which hijack the host's synapses. After prolonged use, this results in partially transcribing a person's identity onto the host's brain. I'm still working on a theory as to how this is done with plants... but if my understanding is correct, then it explains Stalker's reticence in TSD. Assuming the frame he cobbled together wasn't 'dead', some aspect of its prior identity may linger under Stalker's imprint. Being confronted with a Tenno may have triggered old memories, raising questions the homunculus had forgotten over the centuries. One hell of an identity crisis.

[SilentMobius]

Just now, aligatorno said:

Sentience, as they are like animals. 

Cool, as long as we're clear, a lot of Sci-fi misuses "Sentience" to imply reasoning.

So mind-control eugenic dog-fighting it is then.

Yay, warcrime every time we build and use a new Warframe, what an awesome way to disincline players to participate in the game's primary progress mechanic, how smart!

I guess we don't even need that sun/mood dial anymore, every player character in the game is irredeemably evil by author fiat!

 

[Miser_able]

1 hour ago, Zanoza-chan said:

 

  Hide contents

Chroma saying "all hush and empty in a womb of the sky" - sounds like his Operator died for some reason, and Chroma left uncontrolled

 

That wasn't chroma who said that. The voice was a sentient. And Iirc the womb of the sky is Lua. So it was just saying Lua was empty. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Miser_able

[Blakrana]

36 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

'LESS THAN THEIR HUMAN SEED'

Yeah, they made them from humans. S#&$ just got real.

Same as Grineer, Lorists, Cephalons...Orokin played fast and loose with human genetics as it suited. Though for all we know they just sequence some genomes, blend in technocyte and there you go, organic component which is then wedded with the supporting mechanical components and there you go, fresh Warframe.

Though either way it essentially means, as SilentMobius notes above, we're now retroactively condoning ongoing slavery per frame we make and employ or neglect.

Fun...

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

Cool, as long as we're clear, a lot of Sci-fi misuses "Sentience" to imply reasoning.

So mind-control eugenic dog-fighting it is then.

Yay, warcrime every time we build and use a new Warframe, what an awesome way to disincline players to participate in the game's primary progress mechanic, how smart!

I guess we don't even need that sun/mood dial anymore, every player character in the game is irredeemably evil by author fiat!

 

Even if we aren't brainjacking our own frames, we were never the "good guy". We woke up and immediately became Space Nazis, indiscriminately slaughtering hapless soldiers and mercs to some undefined end, at the behest of an unseen master we have no reason to trust. No culture, no contact with one another outside of combat. Any benefit of our actions to the Origin System is coincidence.

At least this is clever writing. It's not as cut-and-dry as you're implying, either. The Tenno likely aren't aware of Warframes' sentience in the context of the story, although realistically anyone would have figured it out by now. "Ignorance is no excuse," as they say, but it still sells in court.

3 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

That wasn't chroma who said that. The voice was a sentient. And Iirc the womb of the sky is Lua. So it was just saying Lua was empty. 

That quote still lingers in the back of my mind. That animal skull looks like part of a Sentient... and the VA for that quote isn't the same as Hunhow's VA. (Those quests were developed half a year apart, so not super strong evidence, but still worth noting.) Chroma's pelt is literally hacked-off chunks of a Sentient carapace. The voice says the womb is "empty", despite the Tenno still sleeping there, implying the speaker knows something we don't. Lot of bits and pieces... I could be misinterpreting, but I keep thinking a giant hint hides in that quest, but can't put it together.

[SilentMobius]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Even if we aren't brainjacking our own frames, we were never the "good guy". We woke up and immediately became Space Nazis, indiscriminately slaughtering hapless soldiers and mercs to some undefined end, at the behest of an unseen master we have no reason to trust. No culture, no contact with one another outside of combat. Any benefit of our actions to the Origin System is coincidence.

At least this is clever writing. It's not as cut-and-dry as you're implying, either. The Tenno likely aren't aware of Warframes' sentience in the context of the story, although realistically anyone would have figured it out by now. "Ignorance is no excuse," as they say, but it still sells in court.

At least we were insurgents in a war, we protected civilians against two massive military forces. Hell our primary beef with the Corpus is their use of brainwashing. The dial suggested that there would be room for somewhat positive action. Now no one with even an ounce of conscience can make a Warframe, let alone use their existing ones.

Actually the moral thing to do is go back into stasis

Way to encourage playing the game!

I don't find this "clever writing" this is retroactive edgelord-grimdark by author fiat, it's pre-teen-black-eyeliner level writing.

Edited March 12, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Levenna]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

I thought Steve has been teasing us about Warframe sentience for 1+ year now...

Update 20/Next CInematic Quest should have all answers for us though.

we all know thats total bullS#&$ XD

all answers will be [DE]layed

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

5 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

At least we were insurgents in a war, we protected civilians against two massive military forces. Hell our primary beef with the Corpus is their use of brainwashing. The dial suggested that there would be room for somewhat positive action. Now no one with even an ounce of conscience can make a Warframe, let alone use their existing ones.

Actually the moral thing to do is go back into stasis

Way to encourage playing the game!

I don't find this "clever writing" this is retroactive edgelord-grimdark by author fiat, it's pre-teen-black-eyeliner level writing.

To each their own, I guess. Personally, I prefer moral ambiguity in my protagonists. The "we're not so different" speech gets tiresome; it's vapid unless the protagonist actually has something to feel ashamed of, rather than just the irrational insecurity of youth, which is a frustratingly common trope in all genres (part of why TWW alienated me). As the progeny of the Orokin, whose legacy is its slavery in the eyes of most surviving factions in the Origin System, to learn we unknowingly carried the grimmer aspects of their torch is interesting to me. As is how Tenno react to that revelation -- and moreso, how their frames respond to them, if given an opportunity. It's an opportunity to explore consciousness and self-awareness in, what's for all intents and purposes, an alien species. Which I'm a huge sucker for. Especially since that may be a reality for humanity within this century.

As for the conscience aspect, we're definitely not going to find common ground there. I've read/watched/played far too much fiction for suspension of disbelief to come naturally. I don't have strong reactions to literature; it's all just introspection to me now. I don't feel bad for subjugating frames for the same reason I don't feel bad for jamming knives into a person's back, lifting them over my head, and snapping their spine in half over my knee. (Although, not gonna lie, I did wince a little when I saw Venka's finishers. Gruesome.)

What I will say is I don't want it to be the primary focus of the story. It's good for flavor, and the setup is already there, but the focus should remain on the conflict between the factions and the looming threat of the Sentient. I don't think there's been enough emphasis on the conflict between Grineer and Corpus compared to 2014, when it was front and center.

[SilentMobius]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

To each their own, I guess. Personally, I prefer moral ambiguity in my protagonists. The "we're not so different" speech gets tiresome; it's vapid unless the protagonist actually has something to feel ashamed of, rather than just the irrational insecurity of youth, which is a frustratingly common trope in all genres (part of why TWW alienated me). As the progeny of the Orokin, whose legacy is its slavery in the eyes of most surviving factions in the Origin System, to learn we unknowingly carried the grimmer aspects of their torch is interesting to me. As is how Tenno react to that revelation -- and moreso, how their frames respond to them, if given an opportunity. It's an opportunity to explore consciousness and self-awareness in, what's for all intents and purposes, an alien species. Which I'm a huge sucker for. Especially since that may be a reality for humanity within this century.

As for the conscience aspect, we're definitely not going to find common ground there. I've read/watched/played far too much fiction for suspension of disbelief to come naturally. I don't have strong reactions to literature; it's all just introspection to me now. I don't feel bad for subjugating frames for the same reason I don't feel bad for jamming knives into a person's back, lifting them over my head, and snapping their spine in half over my knee. (Although, not gonna lie, I did wince a little when I saw Venka's finishers. Gruesome.)

What I will say is I don't want it to be the primary focus of the story. It's good for flavor, and the setup is already there, but the focus should remain on the conflict between the factions and the looming threat of the Sentient. I don't think there's been enough emphasis on the conflict between Grineer and Corpus compared to 2014, when it was front and center.

We are child soldiers who were involved in the death of our own parents and the downfall of a whole civilization, we have plenty of ambiguity already. What we didn't have and don't need is "Welp, you're all evil now and always were, enjoy!"

We literally have a created race (The Sentients) and the "Kuva persona" (Possibly from the void) if we want to explore consciousness and self-awareness. The last thing we need is a solid reason to not play the game due to a game mechanic being inherently and irredeemably more evil that the "bad guys"

It's author-fiat-railroading over the most basic of player choice and motivation.

[Damuranashi]

3 hours ago, Wolfsfang202 said:

possibly referring to how the tenno served the orokin before their betrayal

I thought it was more like "The Tenno tamed them but barely"

[DatDarkOne]

25 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

We are child soldiers who were involved in the death of our own parents and the downfall of a whole civilization, we have plenty of ambiguity already. What we didn't have and don't need is "Welp, you're all evil now and always were, enjoy!"

We literally have a created race (The Sentients) and the "Kuva persona" (Possibly from the void) if we want to explore consciousness and self-awareness. The last thing we need is a solid reason to not play the game due to a game mechanic being inherently and irredeemably more evil that the "bad guys"

It's author-fiat-railroading over the most basic of player choice and motivation.

You might be jumping the gun there just a tad bit.  First we (players) don't know anything for sure just yet.  There is also the possibility of Operators and Warframes having a symbiotic relationship of some kind.  That could completely wreck the idea of us subjugating our frames.  Just saying, no need for a moral crusade just yet. 

edit: But if you feel that way, then it's your choice. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by DatDarkOne
added content

[45neo]

3 hours ago, aligatorno said:

Tenno tamed, but only just.

While I believe warframes are in fact sentient I also theorize the tenno have tamed the warframes more than anyone could possibly know. The infestation in the warframe is not just sentient and we have not just tamed it. We have befriended it, it has become a willing conduit of our will. Thus our rage is the warframes rage, and to a point vise-versa. Thus they are loyal to us and us alone because we have not just tamed them but became their masters.

[SilentMobius]

On 2017-3-12 at 7:33 PM, DatDarkOne said:

You might be jumping the gun there just a tad bit.  First we (players) don't know anything for sure just yet.  There is also the possibility of Operators and Warframes having a symbiotic relationship of some kind.  That could completely wreck the idea of us subjugating our frames.  Just saying, no need for a moral crusade just yet. 

edit: But if you feel that way, then it's your choice. 

If you mean that they are non-sentient non-sapient unless piloted by a Tenno, sure. If DE go with that or similar they there is no additional problem. But some of that Valkyr Prime Ballas dialogue seem to be implying, at least, a motive animalistic Warframe.

If you mean a sapient and/or sentient Warframe that chooses a "symbiosis" With the Tenno. I don't think that's possible to sell in a fiction with Tenno having a stable of almost 50 different Warframes, that they sell on a whim, that have been literally built for the purpose. You can't sell the notion of self-determination is that context.

Edited May 23, 2017 by SilentMobius

[DatDarkOne]

24 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

If you mean that they are non-sentient non-sapient unless piloted by a Tenno, sure. If DE go with that or similar they there is no additional problem. But som of that Valkyr Prime Ballas dialogue seem to be implying, at least, a motive animalistic Warframe.

Here's what I'm gonna go with.  DE has stated that some of the concepts of Warframe were inspired by the Guyver (manga and anime).  Looking at the video for Valkyr Prime, there is a lot of similarities between the Valkyr P frame and how the Guyver Unit itself reacts when the operator is (let's say) unconscious.  Then there is that both Warframes and Guyver units have biological material/components.  Now for the animalistic part. 

Quote

A Guyver Unit itself is semi-sentient and can act on its own in a limited capacity if its host is unable to consciously control it. In this mode, it usually acts only in self-preservation towards a perceived threat. Guyver I demonstrated this function after its host (Sho) was left unconscious follow the bonding process, when he was regenerated by the Control Medal in Chronos Japan Headquarters. It is presumably also this semi-sentience that prevents the host from disengaging the armor if they have sustained injuries that would prove fatal without the Guyver's protection and ability to rapidly heal from damage.

It's the bolded part that also can describe what happened in the Valkyr Prime video.   In the case of the Guyver (and by some degree Warframes) one could consider it to be programed to appear semi-sentient/sapient to help facilitate survival in certain circumstances. 

I could be completely wrong.  But going by some statements DE made in Devstreams, the Valkyr video itself, and some of the Lore, it seems to be a fairly safe assumption for me to make.  :D

Edited March 12, 2017 by DatDarkOne
Guyver quoted info comes from Guyver wiki