Seems the goal is to simply break the Tonkor. Why?

[DEATHLOK]

On one level, I understand the Nerfs to the Simulor and Boltace weapons, because with these weapons, players were abusing each other in low-level missions. The Simulor Nerf misses the mark, as it was the Mirage & Simulor mechanic that was the problem—not the weapon in the hands of other players. But why hit the mark precisely (Ash) when you can drop a nuke on a problem?

Hall of Mirrors could have been tweaked.

The transparency of the Boltace wave effect could have been increased, then no one would complain that they were being "blinded." (If the wave of damage is still in play, and the pull/push effect is not replacing it, than I'm at an even greater loss to understand what is happening there.)

But DE wants to break the Tonkor because it is popular? This is the reasoning being presented by official YouTube content creators.

Extrapolate this practice over the course of the next few years. DE will break every weapon that players prefer? Then why should we play the game?

The logic of breaking weapons because they are popular does not hold water, as there will always be certain weapons players enjoy more than others. We see this in every game ever made. This has always been the case in Warframe—certainly because the vast majority of weapons are suited for only very low-level game play. Tonkor stood apart, as it scaled better than most Primaries, giving it fantastic crowd-control ability.

If, then, it makes no sense to break weapons because they are popular, and I don't believe DE makes decisions without specific well-thought reasoning involved, I struggle to explain why the Tonkor is being ruined.

Some will claim the Tonkor is being broken because it kills groups of enemies, that it's not hard enough to use. It fires bombs. Bombs kill in groups. It's not easy to use; it's easy to miss. I've never once seen anyone hoard Affinity by racing through a map spamming Tonkor. When I use it, I fairly have to stand still. No one posed a threat to shared Affinity with Tonkor. They did, however, have the ability to keep a squad going a little longer than some may prefer. And if self-damage must be the standard, why Nerf Critical damage?—that isn't necessary to implement self-damage, not by a long shot.

The only reasoning I cannot eliminate goes back to crowd-control and the ability to maintain squad viability in endless mission types. And it seems all weapons being Nerfed this time around excelled at crowd control.

Is it the case that, in the end, the eventual goal is to prevent players from lasting much longer than one or two C rotations, or 20 minutes of Survival and Excavation? I say this because I see less effort being put into balancing the game than in reining in veteran players.

A plan to balance the game would incorporate improving scalability—not destroying it. Weapons that can't be used on anything past level 20 enemies would be buffed, damage types that fall off in Sorties and beyond would be realigned with those that do not, and largely ineffective frames would be reworked.

I'm just not seeing any significant effort being put into improving scalability. I see the current buffs to underused weapons as red herrings, with a clear ceiling being built in such a way that no one is supposed to notice.

I know it is a significant—perhaps impossible—challenge to push back against player skill and ingenuity with superior, scalable AI. It's why developers rely on buffing enemy stats to keep players inside the fence. But I'm not suggesting a paradigm shift in game design is in order for Warframe. Buffing enemy stats is the best scaling gaming will see for years to come.

What I am calling into question is if DE is reducing damage output potentials at the higher end (and it appears that they are), then why? My own suspicion is that a decision has been made to push back harder against resource gathering and Affinity. Again, I've reached this conclusion as Nerfing weapons because they are popular seems nonsensical. Improve bad weapons, and they'd be popular, too—it's common sense. This seems more a persistent, gradual lowering of the bar—or tightening of the noose.

For any veterans remaining, an answer will become clear at some point, with the legs cut out from under every other effective weapon and frame.

These are just my opinions, and I may be missing parts of the larger picture. No need to get into a twist over my understanding of a video game. I would be interested in learning what I've failed to see.

[venon23]

penta gives self dmg ogris gives self dmg why tonkor does not???
if u talk about mobility come one warframes are fast asf and jump asf dont need quake mechanics
 

[AdunSaveMe]

10 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

But DE wants to break the Tonkor because it is popular? This is the reasoning being presented by official YouTube content creators.

The goal is to balance the tonkor, not break it, because it is too powerful, not too popular.

YouTubers are drama queens. They always have been. A weapon gets nerfed and their next video will be fifteen minutes long with the title "WEAPON NERFED! DE MAKES ANOTHER GUN UNUSABLE!", and it's almost guaranteed that the thumbnail will have at least one big red circle.

Rebalancing everything that takes advantage of the tonkor's power is not a solution, because the tonkor itself is the issue.

Edited March 24, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Valkyr-Umbra]

Imo, tonkor isn't just popular, its overpowered, and the nerf was a long time coming. It dishes out insane amounts of damage in an AoE without self damage... Self-damage nerf was absolutely essential (not to mention overdue) and the additional crit nerf helps to further bring it in line with other launchers.

[Ethermie]

need a TL;DR

badly >.>

also i agree the tonkor nerf(mainly the self damage) is bullS#&$ because only reason behind it is its popular and powerful(needs atleast  5 forma to even achieve that). also it dint hurt anybody at all like the bolace/simulor did... somehow

[Ethermie]

4 minutes ago, venon23 said:

penta gives self dmg ogris gives self dmg why tonkor does not???
if u talk about mobility come one warframes are fast asf and jump asf dont need quake mechanics
 

with tethered grenades mod penta also dosnt deal self damage. and only reason ogris soo underused is because of self damage. any weapon with self damage is way to situational to actually invest into them.. 

[AdunSaveMe]

3 minutes ago, Ethermie said:

with tethered grenades mod penta also dosnt deal self damage. and only reason ogris soo underused is because of self damage. any weapon with self damage is way to situational to actually invest into them.. 

The ogris is underused because it's bad >_>

[Autongnosis]

5 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The goal is to balance the tonkor, not break it, because it is too powerful, not too popular.

YouTubers are drama queens. They always have been. A weapon gets nerfed and their next video will be fifteen minutes long with the title "WEAPON NERFED! DE MAKES ANOTHER GUN UNUSABLE!", and it's almost guaranteed that the thumbnail will have at least one big red circle.

I agree. Only, i would personally like to have a pass at the fact that it still sometimes explode on nothing in the middle of thin air, which could be a problem when the self-damage hits it.

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, Autongnosis said:

I agree. Only, i would personally like to have a pass at the fact that it still sometimes explode on nothing in the middle of thin air, which could be a problem when the self-damage hits it.

That is definitely annoying.

[DEATHLOK]

7 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The goal is to balance the tonkor, not break it, because it is too powerful, not too popular. YouTubers are drama queens.

Rebalancing everything that takes advantage of the tonkor's power is not a solution, because the tonkor itself is the issue.

I feel the need for balance in Warframe extends well beyond anything that is done to Tonkor. Scalability of damage types is a mess, for instance, and affects the game to its core.

[Ethermie]

Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

The ogris is underused because it's bad >_>

not ready.. remove the self damage and its awsome. i had it for a looonnnggg time.. back when farming affinity in ODD with vauban was a thing.. and i must say i never tried to use it in regular mission after seeing how the self damage makes it too much of a pain to use in any situation out of ODD

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

I get the damage nerf, I just don't get the mechanics changes. Tonkor is one of the few weapons that made Zephyr useful, but now she'll go back in the closet. 

[VentiGlondi]

@Ethermie Ogris is underused because it's the slowest of the launchers and doesn't have anything to make up for it.

@(PS4)Regiampiero If a single weapon is what makes a warframe good, then maybe the warframe has never left the closet to begin with?

Edited March 24, 2017 by VentiGlondi

[o.0-]

20 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

This is the reasoning being presented by official YouTube content creators.

I stopped reading here. Official...?

[Drufo]

Did you even read the reson for the nerf? "there are a few weapons that have such a dominating effect in missions that co-operative missions essentially become solo" "We have nerfed 3 weapons (plus 1 variant) that we feel disrupts the co-op setting and pace of gameplay for most groups".

It's definetly not a matter of popularity...

[Doomsknightmare]

Because Tonkor is so braindead with high AOE damage + no self-damage compared to other launchers.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

2 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

 If a single weapon is what makes a warframe good, then maybe the warframe has never left the closet to begin with?

No argument here, just saying this was the last nail in Zephyr's coffin. 

[Ethermie]

4 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

@Ethermie Ogris is underused because it's the slowest of the launchers and doesn't have anything to make up for it.

 

well then do tell me how the self damage will keep the tonkor relevant with all those bouncing grenades..

 

what tonkor needed was change in numbers not a mechanics change..the mechanics makes it more desirable than its damage.. you should not consistently deal 110k crits in huge area.. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ethermie

[BezNazwy2506]

Tonkor will still be very good weapon, they just made it work as other launchers, as u noticed we're firing large aoe exploding grenades which SHOULD be able to hurt us if we are too close.

[o.0-]

2 minutes ago, Ethermie said:

well then do tell me how the self damage will keep the tonkor relevent with all those bouncing granades..

Quote

Tonkor

The Tonkor's rocket jumping mechanic has long been obsolete since the introduction of bullet jumping. This weapon is a launcher by nature, and we've made adjustments to that end.

• The Tonkor now deals self-damage like all other launchers.

• The Tonkor Grenade trajectory line now appears on holding the fire button (Default Left Mouse), and grenade fires on release.
• The Maximum lifespan of grenade has dropped from 5 to 3 seconds - grenades are quicker to explode
• Grenades bounce lower and explode sooner, making them more likely to explode where they are shot.
• The Critical Chance has been reduced to 25%.

There are also a mod or two that can help with preventing the bouncing of Grenades.

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

21 minutes ago, venon23 said:

penta gives self dmg ogris gives self dmg why tonkor does not???

Funny thing about those weapons... How often do you see them? And on the rare occasion you ARE seeing them, how often are you reviving that person? Self-damage is only a pain the &#! for those who aren't using it. All those people complaining over something that literally doesn't affect them, such as a persons choice in loadout (outside of high level content that is), will now have to deal with constantly reviving people still wanting to use the Tonkor.

[Ethermie]

1 minute ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

There are also a mod or two that can help with preventing the bouncing of Grenades.

and that will make it a worse version of zarr.. why even take tonkor then..

[DEATHLOK]

1 hour ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

I stopped reading here. Official...?

That is how some YouTube content makers refer to themselves. It's not a title I just invented.

Tonkor may be dominating low-level game play, causing all manner of consternation while scooping up the kill counts many think measure growth and development in the game.

I don't see Tonkor dominating any match with players who know what they're doing. I see melee builds more effective than anything I've ever seen done with Tonkor.

So maybe, just maybe, it's dominating low-level game play? Just like the other three Nerfed weapons?

But whatever. Maybe the Almighty wants Tonkor to be no better or worse than any other launcher weapon. Which rarely gets used.

Still fairly well convinced that the long term goal is to push back on resource and Affinity gathering.

When your favorite weapon arrives on the chopping block, you may also find yourself questioning the motive.

Thanks for all the replies; very informative and enlightening.

Edited March 24, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

has anyone brought a simulor without mirage on sorties?

[Mak_Gohae]

Like i said in the update thread.

They nerf them just to move people away and then unnerf them later.

That's what you can clearly see with the Glaxion which they just "buffed". They nerfed it a while back by lowering the accuracy which made the weapon total crap cause it wouldn't hit so you wasted a lot of ammo. What did they do now to buff it? Oh, let's roll back that accuracy nerf. Good job doing something that should not have been done to start.

7 hours ago, venon23 said:

penta gives self dmg ogris gives self dmg why tonkor does not???

 

Cause you have 0 control of the Tonkor nade. Why is this question still being asked?