New Limbo has me wondering why

[DEATHLOK]

Online, I'm seeing more trolling with Limbo, especially with the new Stasis ability.

I've played a bit with the build. I realize I can't roll any more, which will affect my movement speed and is contrary to the way I fight with every other Warframe.

I've not managed to Banish anything; when I try, the targets just die.

I've seen other players create Rift bubbles that shrink over time. I can't—the most I manage is some sort of explosion killing enemies in an undetermined range.

Maybe the build I had no longer works.

I'm trying to understand: Players complain about trolls putting them into the Void to keep them out of combat, so DE adds another troll mechanic allowing for invulnerable enemies?

Who designed all this?

[NobleParadox96]

10 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

Online, I'm seeing more trolling with Limbo, especially with the new Stasis ability.

I've played a bit with the build. I realize I can't roll any more, which will affect my movement speed and is contrary to the way I fight with every other Warframe.

I've not managed to Banish anything; when I try, the targets just die.

I've seen other players create Rift bubbles that shrink over time. I can't—the most I manage is some sort of explosion killing enemies in an undetermined range.

Maybe the build I had no longer works.

I'm trying to understand: Players complain about trolls putting them into the Void to keep them out of combat, so DE adds another troll mechanic allowing for invulnerable enemies?

Who designed all this?

yea they changed the banish mechanic... in other words, you can't banish if a separate plane... also you might be using it on low-level enemies... try it on a higher level so enemies don't die so easily

that's cataclysm... it usually shrinks overtime (limbo's 4th)

 

overall... you might want to change up your playstyle with limbo

Edited March 30, 2017 by NobleParadox96

[NoelleAllogene]

all that limbo rework, and people just spam 4 anyway.

[Ceadeus]

5 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

Online, I'm seeing more trolling with Limbo, especially with the new Stasis ability.

I've played a bit with the build. I realize I can't roll any more, which will affect my movement speed and is contrary to the way I fight with every other Warframe.

I've not managed to Banish anything; when I try, the targets just die.

I've seen other players create Rift bubbles that shrink over time. I can't—the most I manage is some sort of explosion killing enemies in an undetermined range.

Maybe the build I had no longer works.

I'm trying to understand: Players complain about trolls putting them into the Void to keep them out of combat, so DE adds another troll mechanic allowing for invulnerable enemies?

Who designed all this?

 

I'm personally a fan of most of the changes they made to Limbo (save the most recent ones...) so I'll try to explain some of the misconceptions here.

First off, I don't believe that Limbo can really "troll" anyone anymore unless they plain banish all the enemies and don't put you in the rift or something.  The people complaining about stasis only seem to be looking at what's happening in that exact moment, but the reality of it is, even if you don't get the "immediate gratification" you're used to from your guns, your bullets/arrows/whatever are still going to hit just like they would have outside of the stasis, you just have to wait a little bit.  Even if you did want to kill the enemies right now you can still melee them or hit them with powers and it will kill them as per normal.  But the bottom line is, you're not losing any DPS or kills or effectiveness, it's literally just a delay between your action and the result.

Second, I'm pretty sure Limbo's new dash covers the same distance as a roll just with less elevation loss, so you don't really "lose" any mobility unless you're relying on that downward arc for some reason.  I personally love to just dash repeatedly through a mission, it's actually pretty quick.

As for your banish/cataclysm, that does just sound like a build issue.  If you'd prefer to banish enemies rather than just kill them, you have two obvious options, fight higher level enemies, or lower your power strength.  As for the "explosion" you're experiencing, it could either be that your duration is low enough that your bubble just pops after a second or two, or if there's a nullifier in the area, it'll pop the bubble instantly.  I run a heavy duration/range build that makes my bubble last for 80 seconds, so it shrinks really slowly and catches plenty of enemies.

But yeah, as far as trolling, I think that's only achievable if all enemies are banished and you can't get into the rift, everything else there are tools in place to circumvent.

Hope this has been informative and/or helpful!

[PsiWarp]

My assumption of the devs' assumption is the players will attempt to play by their vision of game design (completing objectives, teamwork, etc). While this is mostly the case, with a 60k playerbase and rising, you can't discount the bad apples that will exploit and grief.

Limbo's rework is designed to add to his existing kit to expand his control over everything in the Rift. It's a spectacular rework in and of itself, but it does not fully or mostly address the trolling aspects of his powers. We got to collect loot in Cataclysm and hold onto carryable items as we transit between planes, but that's about it. There's still a list of things that the Rift (and by extension, Limbo players) affects in ways that negatively impact team-play. To name a few... not being able to press X on non-carryable objects inside Cataclysm (Life Support Capsules, Consoles, Elevators, seriously guys), Limbos forcing other Limbos out of the rift, non-stop rolling if being trolled by a Limbo, etc.

Limbo really should have built-in anti-troll restrictions in his powers and the Rift mechanic itself.

[faiznorizan]

14 minutes ago, InsanityKey said:

First off, I don't believe that Limbo can really "troll" anyone anymore unless they plain banish all the enemies and don't put you in the rift or something. 

That stasis skill limbo has straight up forces people to melee in cataclysm. So much for bullet time.

[Ceadeus]

Just now, faiznorizan said:

That stasis skill limbo has straight up forces people to melee in cataclysm. So much for bullet time.

Well, no.  Like I said in the rest of my post.  You can still shoot them.  You'll just have to wait for the stasis to end or overload it yourself (Which is actually quite easy, one shot of the Zarr barrage will drop the stasis)  No offense, but these are the comments I don't get.  People seem to have the idea that your bullets outright don't count just because they don't hit instantly :/

[faiznorizan]

Just now, InsanityKey said:

Well, no.  Like I said in the rest of my post.  You can still shoot them.  You'll just have to wait for the stasis to end or overload it yourself (Which is actually quite easy, one shot of the Zarr barrage will drop the stasis)  No offense, but these are the comments I don't get.  People seem to have the idea that your bullets outright don't count just because they don't hit instantly :/

Not everyone brings a zarr to every fight. Plus you don't just force someone to resort to a selected way of killing something in game. No offense taken. It's bloody annoying.

Max duration stasis lasts 84 seconds.... you want to wait for a minute plus for your bullets to start killing things? lol

[Ceadeus]

11 minutes ago, faiznorizan said:

Not everyone brings a zarr to every fight. Plus you don't just force someone to resort to a selected way of killing something in game. No offense taken. It's bloody annoying.

Max duration stasis lasts 84 seconds.... you want to wait for a minute plus for your bullets to start killing things? lol

 

I wasn't saying you had to use a Zarr.  Just that it's not that hard to overload the stasis.  You could argue that Frost is a troll because he can put bubbles in front of you that you can't shoot through, you can say Ember is a troll because she makes you run out of her range to really get any kills until later game content, you can say Hydroid can be a troll because he can puddle enemies, and so on.  I think if you're deliberately forcing yourself to attack the specific enemies Limbo has in stasis or you refuse to use anything but your firearms that's more just a matter of you being stubborn than Limbo actually being a troll, don't you think?  Like I said, I don't see why the wait is a big deal if it's the exact same effect just a little while later.  Typically if everyone in the bubble fires on a target it overloads anyway just from all the projectiles.  Even the AI support you get in faction missions and stuff will overload it with their rinky-dink sidearms in a couple seconds.

[faiznorizan]

1 minute ago, InsanityKey said:

I wasn't saying you had to use a Zarr.  Just that it's not that hard to overload the stasis.  You could argue that Frost is a troll because he can put bubbles in front of you that you can't shoot through, you can say Ember is a troll because she makes you run out of her range to really get any kills until later game content, you can say Hydroid can be a troll because he can puddle enemies, and so on.  I think if you're deliberately forcing yourself to attack the specific enemies Limbo has in stasis or you refuse to use anything but your firearms that's more just a matter of you being stubborn than Limbo actually being a troll, don't you think?  Like I said, I don't see why the wait is a big deal if it's the exact same effect just a little while later.  Typically if everyone in the bubble fires on a target it overloads anyway just from all the projectiles.  Even the AI support you get in faction missions and stuff will overload it with their rinky-dink sidearms in a couple seconds.

arguably, yes. they all are. its just that those who use limbo, out of all the people i have come across, they ALL use stasis for no reason other than to reduce you to melee range. why wait for a longer time, when you could have killed then so much earlier? but that's besides the point. Maybe I just don't see the whole reason for stasis. besides crowd control, it kind of hinders the team in terms of killing outright. i mean, why stop it for some time when you can stop it permanently right? like, with bullets lol

[Ceadeus]

6 minutes ago, faiznorizan said:

arguably, yes. they all are. its just that those who use limbo, out of all the people i have come across, they ALL use stasis for no reason other than to reduce you to melee range. why wait for a longer time, when you could have killed then so much earlier? but that's besides the point. Maybe I just don't see the whole reason for stasis. besides crowd control, it kind of hinders the team in terms of killing outright. i mean, why stop it for some time when you can stop it permanently right? like, with bullets lol

 

 

Well Limbo's really squishy, so it's not ideal to have your one place of invulnerability be filled with a bunch of enemies that can still just shoot you anyway and even for enemies you just don't want to fight yet, it's great for taking them out of the equation for a little while, and once you get into real late-game, it's unbelievably useful.  With one banish+stasis combo I can bring down a level 120 heavy gunner without taking a single shot of damage, and the only other option would be to sit in the rift the whole mission to avoid damage and be fairly useless to the team, which I think is worse since then you'd know every time you got a Limbo in your squad you'd basically be down a person.  Without that CC he gets from the stasis, you'd most likely just resort back to guns, which you might as well bring any other frame that has abilities that actually help, right?

I for one am a heavily melee based player, it's not uncommon that I'll run a mission and never fire a shot just because I prefer melee.  So having the time-stop bubble that makes you feel like some badass samurai is a pretty nice touch as well :)

Edited March 30, 2017 by InsanityKey

[faiznorizan]

1 minute ago, InsanityKey said:

Well Limbo's really squishy, so it's not ideal to have your one place of invulnerability be filled with a bunch of enemies that can still just shoot you anyway and even for enemies you just don't want to fight yet, it's great for taking them out of the equation for a little while, and once you get into real late-game, it's unbelievably useful.  With one banish+stasis combo I can bring down a level 120 heavy gunner without taking a single shot of damage, and the only other option would be to sit in the rift the whole mission to avoid damage and be fairly useless to the team, which I think is worse since then you'd know every time you got a Limbo in your squad you'd basically be down a person.  Without that CC he gets from the stasis, you'd most likely just resort back to guns, which you might as well bring any other frame that has abilities that actually help, right?

true i suppose. if it's a discussed strategy. i agree with high level crowd control, that's the whole point i think. but when they bring it to mid level enemies that goes down in seconds to bullets... you'd have to agree it's quite annoying. and hindering to the cause. of killing. things. lol

of course just to clarify, it's stasis with cataclysm that makes your teams guns useless. besides the overloading thing possible.

[Ceadeus]

3 minutes ago, faiznorizan said:

true i suppose. if it's a discussed strategy. i agree with high level crowd control, that's the whole point i think. but when they bring it to mid level enemies that goes down in seconds to bullets... you'd have to agree it's quite annoying. and hindering to the cause. of killing. things. lol

of course just to clarify, it's stasis with cataclysm that makes your teams guns useless. besides the overloading thing possible.

 

 

Eh, I think with how quickly mid-tier enemies just become fodder anyway it wouldn't really matter that much.  Even with my build that has negative strength, enemies take 300-900 damage (depending on armor and stuff) every time they enter the bubble, but since stasis locks them once they enter, it waits till they're out of the bubble (from it shrinking over time), then they try to run in again, and take another proc of damage, and this continues till they all die anyway.

Edited March 30, 2017 by InsanityKey

[k05h]

3 hours ago, InsanityKey said:

Second, I'm pretty sure Limbo's new dash covers the same distance as a roll just with less elevation loss, so you don't really "lose" any mobility unless you're relying on that downward arc for some reason.  I personally love to just dash repeatedly through a mission, it's actually pretty quick.

How do you dash? I havent played Limbo since his rework and I could not find a dash ability in the wiki.

[NinjaZeku]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

How do you dash? I havent played Limbo since his rework and I could not find a dash ability in the wiki.

It's replaced his Roll.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo/Abilities

RIFT WALK

Limbo will stride effortlessly into the opposite dimension when performing the following maneuvers:
Roll (default Shift), Sidespring (A or D + Shift), and Backspring (RMB + S + Shift).

• Limbo's stride causes him to enter or exit the Rift or material plane, depending on his current dimension.
  He can remain in his new dimension indefinitely, until he performs the triggering maneuvers again or travels between both dimensions freely via Cataclysm.
• If striding into the Rift plane, Limbo leaves behind a portal that lasts for 5 seconds.
  Ally players can touch the portal to enter the Rift for 15 seconds, after which they will return to the material plane.
  • Allies can perform the trigger maneuvers to return to the material plane.
  • Limbo himself can use the portal to enter the Rift with no time limit.
• Additionally, each enemy killed inside the Rift grants Limbo 10 energy.

[Rythiman]

Limbo isn't the only Warframe with trolling potential, he's just the one that had a bad release. At release the was no way to exit the rift if a Max duration limbo banished you, you couldn't carry items or pick up loot at all in the rift, and you couldn't prematurely collapse Cataclysm even if you wanted to. Over the years most of those issues were circumvented and after U20 almost all are gone (though admittedly a determined troll could still ruin your day, I've personally been trolled by Frost, and valkyr more than by limbo). In fact, I've only ever been trolled by a Limbo once, but because my most played Warframe is limbo and I have extensive knowledge of the rift I was able to take the lemon and make lemonade. Granted, before the update Limbo was a rare sight to begin with and it will probably go back to being that way in a couple of weeks. Yet first impressions are strong ones so I don't think we'll ever see an end to players complaining about his trolling potential unless they just remove him or the rift from the game all together.

[TheMadjackal]

The main issue with limbo is, he remain kinda useless as a frame. He have potential but all his skills are just a waste of time or annoying to the squad. Yeah alone he can survive etc but in a  group mind, he's just bothering everyone by banishing target that can be killed easily and even if they dont die easily, he's still wasting the group time by isolating a target. His 4th ability is mildly decent only in defense, outside that, it's just another annoying thing to block you from killing..

I think the problem is that, limbo skillset is made for an assassin type of character, by shadow striking and evading damage with the rift, like i said, it work well for a solo player so he can split potential danger but, in a group, he's just an hindrance.

[DEATHLOK]

8 hours ago, InsanityKey said:

Well, no.  Like I said in the rest of my post.  You can still shoot them.  You'll just have to wait for the stasis to end or overload it yourself (Which is actually quite easy, one shot of the Zarr barrage will drop the stasis)  No offense, but these are the comments I don't get.  People seem to have the idea that your bullets outright don't count just because they don't hit instantly :/

When a max-duration Limbo throws scores of enemies into Stasis and leaves them there until his timer completely expires during a Defense mission, it's trolling behavior. I personally do not like standing around with nothing to fight, because Limbo decides not to let me fight.

"You can melee them!" Really? Now another player gets to dictate which weapons I use? Wonderful....

Stasis is entirely contrary to the design of a fast-paced shooter. Shoot them and they'll die later? I want enemies to die now!

What if I have a Focus lens on a weapon? Limbo gets to decide if I can earn Focus?

I think his frame may be great for solo play, but it's inappropriate for a team. The odd Limbo who would troll others by throwing them into the Rift to prevent their fighting was bad enough, but now we have a Limbo who gets complete control over the battlefield.

I'd rather play with Mirage/Simulor.

Edited March 30, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Isn't Stasis recastable ability or something like Titania's Lantern, u must deactivate first before u cast again if Duration still last?

Edited March 30, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099

[Rolunde]

I expect there's a large number of players not intentionally trolling but that have no idea that they can end some abilities early. See this a lot with Nyx's Mind Control.

So many times the player just lets that last target keep running around mind controlled until the timer runs out or someone 'yells' at them about it. =p

The same thing can probably be said as well for that Alt-Fire on the Spamulor and even the Dodge button.

So much can be taken for granted that it seems a lot of people have no idea exists.

And then there is, of course, the occasional actual troll.

But odds are way higher of encountering a noob/newb/scrub.

Hek, some of my best friends are scrubs, hehe. =p

[Arcainyx]

3 hours ago, Rolunde said:

I expect there's a large number of players not intentionally trolling but that have no idea that they can end some abilities early...

I understand and even agree with your statement to a point.  With the exception of when I first started playing WF I read up on every weapon and frame I play before I play it.  I can see where other people wouldn't do the same.  The problem I see with your statement is that whether or not people are intentionally trolling the result is the same for people that are dealing with the results of that trolling.  I've experienced the same situation a handful of times now since Limbo's rework.  In one case the other two members of my squad were unhappy about it mentioned it in squad chat.  The Limbo player defended his actions - strongly.  I can sympathize with the people that haven't enjoyed this.

[DEATHLOK]

I didn't have much problem with the previous version of Limbo. The occasional jackass would throw other players into the Rift to troll them, but it was fairly rare.

This version of Limbo is going to be a huge pain in the...foot.

I won't play Limbo, myself. It's far too contrived. Other players are going to make a mess of Public games with it.

Players were screaming about Ash making enemies invulnerable. DE knew players did not like that sort of mechanic. And now they've done it again.

Unbelievable.

I am very disappointed in this rework, and that's putting it lightly, because I can't say how I really feel. I'd suggest turning the clock back on this one. And instead of messing with new frames, fix some of the old ones, such as Oberon and Ash.

[Ceadeus]

13 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

When a max-duration Limbo throws scores of enemies into Stasis and leaves them there until his timer completely expires during a Defense mission, it's trolling behavior. I personally do not like standing around with nothing to fight, because Limbo decides not to let me fight.

"You can melee them!" Really? Now another player gets to dictate which weapons I use? Wonderful....

Stasis is entirely contrary to the design of a fast-paced shooter. Shoot them and they'll die later? I want enemies to die now!

What if I have a Focus lens on a weapon? Limbo gets to decide if I can earn Focus?

I think his frame may be great for solo play, but it's inappropriate for a team. The odd Limbo who would troll others by throwing them into the Rift to prevent their fighting was bad enough, but now we have a Limbo who gets complete control over the battlefield.

I'd rather play with Mirage/Simulor.

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying about the jackass who does just throw enemies into the rift to troll, though I don't really know what could be done about that without just tossing the entire concept of the frame out the window at this point :/

However, I still believe that the views on how even a properly used stasis affect the battle are a little immature.  To call it a "fast paced shooter" when for years they've been trying to pass us off as "Ninjas" and with how long even a single target battle becomes in late-game content, I think that's a little unfair to use as grounds to rip on an actually fun ability on what was otherwise a frame played purely for a gimmick just because you want instant gratification for your actions but don't want to use the multiple other ways in place to get that.

And as far as focus goes, that just comes back to instant gratification.  You'll still get it, so if that's your goal, why does it matter if it takes a couple seconds?  And for that matter, what makes it any different than a high strength/range ember robbing every kill in the mission the second they enter the room?

Edited March 31, 2017 by InsanityKey

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

22 hours ago, dataman88 said:

all that limbo rework, and people just spam 4 anyway.

Should be spamming 2, 3 and 4 tho. The buff from the augument is pretty rad and stasis is THE melee Cc imo. Only stunlock Cc in the game that doesn't destroy status builds.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

9 hours ago, InsanityKey said:

And as far as focus goes, that just comes back to instant gratification.  You'll still get it, so if that's your goal, why does it matter if it takes a couple seconds?  And for that matter, what makes it any different than a high strength/range ember robbing every kill in the mission the second they enter the room?

I think the complaint is that you can grab a focus token and then have the Limbo put everything in Stasis and make the enemies unkillable for the duration of your focus token, thus negating any positive effects of that token.  IOW, you won't get your focus.

[DEATHLOK]

18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

I think the complaint is that you can grab a focus token and then have the Limbo put everything in Stasis and make the enemies unkillable for the duration of your focus token, thus negating any positive effects of that token.  IOW, you won't get your focus.

I won't play with on a squad with a Limbo, at least not when farming Focus points.

Players were in a rage over Ash creating invulnerable enemies, but they're OK with this? Makes me wonder.