The Tonkor nerf was done incorrectly.

[Luther848]

When trying to balance a weapon that was as powerful as the Tonkor it seems clear from the stats alone that it was incredibly powerful but what really made it stand out compared to the other launchers was the fact that it was so much easier to use. With other explosives they would often simply insta-kill you if you made a simple mistake even if it wasn't your fault (such as another Tenno jumping in front of your shots). It was especially nice considering before the Tonkor I would use the Penta and the only time I died with the Penta (other than when i first started using it)  was because of some weird geometry causing a shot that I thought was fine to bounce back just in time for me to detonate the nade or someone deciding that Penta nades were perfect for an impromptu game of hackey sack. Unfortunately the Penta like many older weapons suffered the fated of being made obsolete by new weapon. The Tonkor of course reigning supreme for many years before getting its turn under the nerf hammer. 

After its changes the Tonkor was brought closer to the level of other weapons but still is essentially superior. It still does superior damage (albeit less reliably) and the self-damage isn't worse than any other launcher. 

I personally believe that all launchers should have gotten a look at along with the Tonkor. 

Changes to the Tonkor I would take (based off of the original)

1. Grenades do self-damage. (I think launchers should be powerful enough that self-damage is warranted and used to balance instead of cripple)
2. Give the Tonkor 100% accuracy. Any sort of randomness when firing a weapon capable of killing you is a terrible idea.
3. Grenades no longer bounce and instead disappear when hitting anything other than an enemy. This fixes the problem of shooting your feet to clear a room and teammates blocking your shot. 

Some of the changes to the launcher class as a whole I would make.

1. Instead of doing insta-kill self-damage getting caught in your explosion would reduce your health cap by a percentage that is capped. For example an Excalibur with 600 health would lose 25% max health so about 150 health leaving his new total at 450 health but an Inaros with 4000 health would only lose 500 health which is about 12.5% (because he doesn't have shields). After about 5 seconds your health cap would slowly increase back to what it was before (maybe at around 3 health a second). Your actual health values shouldn't change just the max so a frame with 600 health when hit with self-damage would still have 600 health after it regenerated but a frame with 500 would still have 500 and not 450. Maybe also lower shields but I don't think that's necessary. It should also vary with each launcher so a Tonkor would make you lose 50% of max health while an Ogris might have 35%.
2. All Primary launcher damage should be doubled at the minimum except for Tonkor which is fine. Although explosives have great AoE damage at low levels it sharply drops as enemy level increases. Armor makes them bad against Grineer because the majority of their damage is Blast, Nullifiers can completely counter most exposives, and Healer Ancients drastically reduce the damage to other infested while healing themselves.
3. Projectiles should fire from the reticle instead of directly from the weapon. One problem I had with launchers was at high velocities the tenno would not be able to keep up with my aim and would occasionally fire at a different angle than what I was intending that would occasionally result in death. 

 

[PoisonHD]

3 minutes ago, Luther848 said:

Grenades no longer bounce and instead disappear when hitting anything other than an enemy. This fixes the problem of shooting your feet to clear a room and teammates blocking your shot. 

No. Because you can still do damage from AoE even if you miss every enemy. The self-damage already fixes shooting your feet to clear the area around you, and teammates blocking your shot isn't much of a problem imo, especially since the change where the grenade (on the tonkor at least) has to travel a certain distance before it will explode.

 

5 minutes ago, Luther848 said:

Instead of doing insta-kill self-damage getting caught in your explosion would reduce your health cap by a percentage that is capped. For example an Excalibur with 600 health would lose 25% max health so about 150 health leaving his new total at 450 health but an Inaros with 4000 health would only lose 500 health which is about 12.5% (because he doesn't have shields). After about 5 seconds your health cap would slowly increase back to what it was before (maybe at around 3 health a second). Your actual health values shouldn't change just the max so a frame with 600 health when hit with self-damage would still have 600 health after it regenerated but a frame with 500 would still have 500 and not 450. Maybe also lower shields but I don't think that's necessary. It should also vary with each launcher so a Tonkor would make you lose 50% of max health while an Ogris might have 35%.

No, that's a terrible idea. Just capped self damage is fine, and not a max health reduction.

6 minutes ago, Luther848 said:

Projectiles should fire from the reticle instead of directly from the weapon. One problem I had with launchers was at high velocities the tenno would not be able to keep up with my aim and would occasionally fire at a different angle than what I was intending that would occasionally result in death. 

No comment, since I've never had a problem with it.

[Hemmo67]

40 minutes ago, Luther848 said:

All Primary launcher damage should be doubled at the minimum except for Tonkor which is fine. Although explosives have great AoE damage at low levels it sharply drops as enemy level increases. Armor makes them bad against Grineer because the majority of their damage is Blast, Nullifiers can completely counter most exposives, and Healer Ancients drastically reduce the damage to other infested while healing themselves.

shoot roof and u pop nullifiers bubble machine then shoot a rocket at their face DONE

launchers have insane dmg already. u don't believe me? join me on my next sortie run and i show you few tricks with my ogris

healers+radiation=problem solved

[Luther848]

10 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

shoot roof and u pop nullifiers bubble machine then shoot a rocket at their face DONE

launchers have insane dmg already. u don't believe me? join me on my next sortie run and i show you few tricks with my ogris

healers+radiation=problem solved

I hadn't considered the Nully change. I typically try to avoid the Corpus and haven't had time to try the new Nully bubbles. I'll test this on my latter although I have to ask if you use a Riven.

[Hemmo67]

1 minute ago, Luther848 said:

I hadn't considered the Nully change. I typically try to avoid the Corpus and haven't had time to try the new Nully bubbles. I'll test this on my latter although I have to ask if you use a Riven.

yes with reload speed and less zoom

nothing that affects the dmg

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Luther848 said:

Give the Tonkor 100% accuracy. Any sort of randomness when firing a weapon capable of killing you is a terrible idea.

LOL Have you tried the Angstrum, never fully charge that in a narrow hallway, you're dead.  Period.  The rockets go in every direction regardless of where you aim and when one detonates, they all detonate so even if a single rocket hits a wall too close to you they all explode instantly.

I used to think that launcher weapons were all just bad, what with the forced blast damage on pretty much all of them and the self damage and that Tonkor alone was the only usable one.  Now I just think they are all bad.

There just isn't that great of an upside to using them.  Some of them are bundles of fun in quick missions, but for extended play, just isn't worth the risk of death.

[taiiat]

my disappointments are that... the Grenades are less bouncy now. i want more. more. and that Crit reliability on a Crit themed Spike Damage Weapon being made less consistent.

neither of these make any sense. those are the primary features of the Weapons' theme.

rather than homogenizing Weapon themes into nothing to fit AFKFarming, Players should use one of the other hundreds of Weapons if they don't like the theme of one.
functionality issues are bound to happen, but 'improvements' shouldn't be removing what makes a Weapon different.

 

i have little to no interest in Tonkor shooting perfectly Accurate, as the below average precision is part of what makes it less likely to get the perfect double Weakpoint Crit.
it's plenty Accurate enough to hit the Enemy you desire to hit, even if it's more than 100m away from you.

On 4/2/2017 at 2:50 PM, Luther848 said:

1. All Primary launcher damage should be doubled at the minimum except for Tonkor which is fine. Although explosives have great AoE damage at low levels it sharply drops as enemy level increases. Armor makes them bad against Grineer because the majority of their damage is Blast, Nullifiers can completely counter most exposives, and Healer Ancients drastically reduce the damage to other infested while healing themselves.
2. Projectiles should fire from the reticle instead of directly from the weapon. One problem I had with launchers was at high velocities the tenno would not be able to keep up with my aim and would occasionally fire at a different angle than what I was intending that would occasionally result in death. 

• AoE Weapons by nature deal solid, but limited Damage, due to being AoE? the Damage that most of these deal is already plenty.
  • the vs Armor argument is nonsense, the only Weapons that are good vs Armor from their Base Damage are Weapons that are Corrosive or Radiation base. everything else does poor Damage to Armor base.
  • Healers protecting other Enemies is their point of existence, i'm sure you can figure out ways to effectively deal with them. Players have been for years.
• why should any of the Launcher Weapons be Ray Trace, exactly(which is exactly what you asked for)? because you're trying to play a cover shooter and you're hitting the wall in front of you? there aren't any 'aiming speed' or 'aiming consistency' issues with any Launcher Weapons.
  • your Weapon always fires from the same origin point, sooo.... learn to shoot from that point.

Edited April 3, 2017 by taiiat

[shyguyk]

only thing i dont like is how you let go of the trigger to fire. everything else is fine

[Luther848]

Just now, shyguyk said:

only thing i dont like is how you let go of the trigger to fire. everything else is fine

But that doesn't change anything. I don't  see a reason to hold the fire button any longer than necessary.

[shyguyk]

2 minutes ago, Luther848 said:

But that doesn't change anything. I don't  see a reason to hold the fire button any longer than necessary.

When you use latrons all the time it does.

[Luther848]

Just now, shyguyk said:

When you use latrons all the time it does.

You don't need to hold for any of the Latron series either?

[shyguyk]

If you have nothing to offer past the fact that you've adjusted yourself to let go of clicking as soon as you click (probably from tigris use), then i dont know what you're on about. Having it fire when you pull the trigger means just that. The way they have it now just adds another mental obstacle

[Luther848]

25 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

If you have nothing to offer past the fact that you've adjusted yourself to let go of clicking as soon as you click (probably from tigris use), then i dont know what you're on about. Having it fire when you pull the trigger means just that. The way they have it now just adds another mental obstacle

Not really considering firing normally complete removes that "mental obstacle" and literally every semi-auto weapon works like that I don't get why you have to associate me with the Tigris. 

[LuckyCharm]

Feels like the nerf has been done right to me. I haven't had a single tonkor being used in missions I've been in and people are trying other weapons out. The whole problem was when it was strong it was drowning out all other choice other than the simulor. It was a crutch for so many people that held back fun for everyone they played with. 

>.> besides which, it made my other guns feel useless.. why would i bother shooting my 6 forma latron wraith when some mr4 newbies just one shotting everything with their noob-launcher. That part still hasn't really changed but I at least get to kill things and participate now

[skinotik]

Self-damage was long time coming fror the Tonkor.  Imo it was needed.  But I agree with you that self-damage mechanic should be look at for all launcher.  Getting one-shot is unfun, however getting two-shot is fine.  25% health reduction is not enough "punishing" for launcher.  Capping self-damage to distance of explosion could be a way to go. Exemple :

0m   = 90% self-damage cap
between 0m - max range = (distance / aoe range) x 90%
max range = 0% self-damage (duh)

[Tagsen]

Nop.

Tonkor is fine now, if you want more accuracy (or something else like remove the grenade's bouncing ..) you have some mods for this, use them.

Sorry, but I think that change the self-damage mechanic is really unnecessary.

[hukurokuju5]

increase projectile collision hitbox

reduce # of bounces to like 2?

reduce time it takes to explode after last bounce

*modify bounciness of projectile (probably less bouncy)

 

all these would make for more predictabile shots

[taiiat]

23 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

all these would make for more predictabile shots

Shots were very predictable previously, what was unpredictable about them? aim at an Enemy directly to detonate instantly, or bounce it off half a dozen walls to Headshot an Enemy around a corner or something of the sort.

that would make for more boring Shots.

[uxx0]

IMO Tonkor only needed a higher MR lock. There are better weapons to use at higher MR, so it'd balance out. Self damage would be fine, if it was capped to a percentage of your health. Dealing full self-damage is certainly not the way to go in a horde-like shooter.

 

20 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Feels like the nerf has been done right to me. I haven't had a single tonkor being used in missions I've been in and people are trying other weapons out. The whole problem was when it was strong it was drowning out all other choice other than the simulor. It was a crutch for so many people that held back fun for everyone they played with. 

>.> besides which, it made my other guns feel useless.. why would i bother shooting my 6 forma latron wraith when some mr4 newbies just one shotting everything with their noob-launcher. That part still hasn't really changed but I at least get to kill things and participate now

Of course you won't see it being used anymore if you'd just kill yourself while using it. And I'm surprised you didn't notice yet that it's not the Tonkor needing to be nerfed, it's other weapons needing buffs. Significant buffs, mind you. Making the weapons viable until about level 60 enemies is not significant.

When you're doing "one-shot" missions like alerts your average player would want to finish it as quickly as possible. To achieve that goal of finishing quickly they'll just bring whatever min-maxed equipment they have. Tonkor is not the only and not even most effective weapon or Warframe for that matter that can easily clear rooms. I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you can only "participate" now after the Tonkor nerf.

[LuckyCharm]

2 hours ago, uxx0 said:

IMO Tonkor only needed a higher MR lock. There are better weapons to use at higher MR, so it'd balance out. Self damage would be fine, if it was capped to a percentage of your health. Dealing full self-damage is certainly not the way to go in a horde-like shooter.

 

Of course you won't see it being used anymore if you'd just kill yourself while using it. And I'm surprised you didn't notice yet that it's not the Tonkor needing to be nerfed, it's other weapons needing buffs. Significant buffs, mind you. Making the weapons viable until about level 60 enemies is not significant.

When you're doing "one-shot" missions like alerts your average player would want to finish it as quickly as possible. To achieve that goal of finishing quickly they'll just bring whatever min-maxed equipment they have. Tonkor is not the only and not even most effective weapon or Warframe for that matter that can easily clear rooms. I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you can only "participate" now after the Tonkor nerf.

Actually after the tonkor aaaand simulor nerfs. And oh? Name one other weapon that was as easy to clear rooms with as those two. I didnt even used to use the right elemental combos on mine and id still blow through sorties without any trouble at all. 

Soma p? Single target. And still no 100k+ red crits. Penta? Good luck with that one. Atomos? Well mine wrecks face but nowhere as fast and falls off fast with no crit. Honestly i cant think of any other weapons that do 80k crits in a large area that also had no self damage. Sonicor comes close but still no crits. 

And i know i said crit a lot even though late game is mostly armor stripping but you really shouldnt be able to clear the entire starchart and sorties and raids even with one gun from mr4. 

[Combustionsquirrel]

1. Grenade bouncing (and the bounciness of grenades) was fun, who cares if it was rendered "obsolete" by bullet jumping.
2. Unreliable crit on a crit based weapon makes it next to useless as it is unable to reliably do it's job (imagine if the soma had a 10% crit chance).
3. Better to buff a majority of weapons to make them more viable than to nerf the most viable one imo.
   1. Reduced self-damage (preferably a set number rather than a % because most frames can't heal)
4. Imo a better nerf would have been an increase in it's MR lock, a more reasonable decrease in it's crit (such as 5% base, which would still leave it with a decent crit chance after point strike, and I don't know where people are getting red crit number from, it could barely break 100%, using point strike and critical delay (a horrible mod btw), without a riven), and decreasing it's mag size to 1, and maybe decreasing it's reload to 1.5 or 1.75 to compensate (boom less spam, there you go)

[(PSN)Xx_Weasle_xX]

Who cares about the Tonkor nerf now?

Why be upset that you use to be able to noob tube an entire room.

We got the new hotness folks. Limbo. He can nuke the ENTIRE zone now with cataclysm.

Get on the new AOE train you slackers.

Edited April 4, 2017 by (PS4)Xx_Weasle_xX

[AzureTerra]

I'd like the Bounce to be returned to what it was, the rest of the changes I'm fine with but the weapon i was very good at ricocheting shots round corners and up stairs is now not so good.

[Feaden]

After the tonkor nerf wait cross it and write destruction I just quit the game. Spend so much time doing it to 7 forma then bang it became totally useless. It is not a nice feeling when you spend hours to perfect something by hunting mods and then it goes totally to bin. The only problem with tonkor that I have noticed was moaning on low mrs. On higher lvl missions I have noticed ppl beeing even a bit happy that it will take shorter. Farming kuva for example could be a pain but tonkor made it a bit well enjoyable. BTW a lot of frame/ weapon combinations can clear as fast as tonkor just needed a little practise. 
Good bye for as long as it is "fixed"

[JalakBali]

Aside from other launchers having other players or NPC blocking your shots, they really need to add a HUD icon on explosives on the field. With all the particle effects, it's silly to think we'd be able to keep an eye at a bouncing tiny thing. Just add the warning triangle on all grenades and missiles.