[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[-CM-NineFingers]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Right, Rift Walk is a vital part of Limbo - so vital it was a full-fledged power in its own right. Now it's a free power - in fact, it gives you back energy. It's better than Iron Skin, better than Warding Halo, better than...well, almost anything out there. Like I said, if they're going to movement-trigger everyone's 2, then fine -- that's a fair approach. But giving Limbo a freebie 5th power that is that good is pretty much the definition of power creep. I eagerly await being able to activate Iron Skin by rolling. 

As for the midair dash, it's not that it's not hard to do. It's that it changes your rift state. Since I was going to give the Limbo change the benefit of the doubt, I tried him out on Lua spy (which is pretty much all I use limbo for anyway - spy missions). I use midair roll to soft-land on stuff all the time, or to change direction. It is an ingrained practice, something I've learned to do over the three-four months I've been playing. Except with Limbo, midair roll (well dash) is now overloaded with another function, that of changing rift state. So using my normal instincts/learned muscle memory as I maneuvered through a vault, I managed to midair-dash right out of the rift and right into a laser, triggering the alarms and losing the data. Yes, I can learn to not do that. No, I'm not going to bother retraining myself for one warframe. 

On a console, crouch and roll are already the same button. With Limbo, it's now crouch, dash, and change rift state. I wholeheartedly recommend that the devs just add Rift Walk as a power you activate by the "activate power" button, rather than keying it to a movement command. 

 

Thing is, iron skin protects against everything, same with warding halo, and invisibility doesn't attract enemies. You are not invincible if there's a cataclysm or you brought people into the rift (which is basically the thing limbo needs to do to survive on high levels, since more than 2-3 enemies around you will get you killed at lvl 80 and beyond. Limbo needs to bring enemies with him to be useful, meaning he's not really safe in any dimension. Plus, now he is forced to get in and out periodically to do anything, since you can't banish from the opposite dimension.

And now, tell me more about how taking an ability that you need constantly to survive, that gives you 0 buffs (unlike iron skin and warding halo, it doesn't protect you from auras and AoEs in the same dimension, while those powers protect you anywhere), puts you either in the real world (where you die) or into the rift (where, without stasis, you used to die too if there was more than just one banished enemy), and turning it into a costless, fast to use movement in exchange for the rolling mechanic, turning you into a slower player OR (if you dash in mid air) making you fragile again until you hit land is adding a 5th power, when you don't have even 4 powers, since 2 are basically the same?

Edited April 19, 2017 by -CM-Limbo
corrected a mistake.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

15 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

And now, tell me more about how taking an ability that you need constantly to survive, that gives you 0 buffs (unlike iron skin and warding halo, it doesn't protect you from auras and AoEs in the same dimension, while those powers protect you anywhere), puts you either in the real world (where you die) or into the rift (where, without stasis, you used to die too if there was more than just one banished enemy), and turning it into a costless, fast to use movement in exchange for the rolling mechanic, turning you into a slower player OR (if you dash in mid air) making you fragile again until you hit land?

Is there a question here? You seem to be missing some words. 

Edit: in any case, here's my basic point -- no matter how bad an idea I think it is, they're not going to get rid of the rift dash, I'm positive of that. What I really, truly want is for it to just be listed as Limbo's 5th power (or first power, or 0th power -- whatever), and trigger it just like every other power, instead of having it bound to a movement command. I use the right-stick-click on my controller to trigger powers. I would far prefer to just select "Rift Walk" as a power, and click the right stick, than actually have my roll function replaced.

They can keep "it's free and in fact it gives you energy" part of it, they can make it dash forward when you click the stick, whatever. I just want it off the freakin' roll button. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[LSG501]

Limbo's fix can't come soon enough, I'm now at the stage where I literally just hit abort the instant a limbo hits cataclysm and then it pops because you just know it's all they're going to do and there's no point you being there.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Limbo's fix can't come soon enough, I'm now at the stage where I literally just hit abort the instant a limbo hits cataclysm and then it pops because you just know it's all they're going to do and there's no point you being there.

Yeah, I just drop out of squads that have a Limbo or an Octavia. Be nice if there was a way to say "don't matchmake me with any of these warframes."

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Ditto132]

On 17/04/2017 at 10:19 PM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Like Frost regularly destroys my ability to do damage because they all like making manakin forests made of ice

But rather than whine i just deal with the frost players intruding on my gameplay.

Yet people are totally fine with frost freezing the field, vauban locking down the map to where nothing can fight back, Banshee stun locking the map and nothing can fight back, radial disarm gas lokis, ivara camping and mowing down everything and so on.

Some people are complaining because they can't accept/deal with the disadvantages/risks involving the Rift mechanic.
They want all the benefits without the disadvantages/risks.
They want the Rift mechanic to be able to affect the targets that they wanted regardless of the planes.
They want Stasis to stop enemies but not their bullets.
Just like wanting Tonkor to kill enemies without killing themselves.

See how many people who complain if

• Frost Snow Globe blocked bullets from both sides.
• Ember Fireball is able to thaw frozen targets.
• Frozen enemies resist damage due to being encased in Ice.
• Sound Quake violently shaking the ground as stated.
• Enemies able to use Ivara Dashwire.
• Enemies to take guesses and spray-firing at possible location of an invisible player.
• Atlas Tectonics also block players and allow to be stood on top of.
• Nekros can only desecrate bodies that are not totally disintegrated.

People don't usually complain about these because those abilities doesn't really have any disadvantages, only benefits.
Disadvantages of

• a frozen enemy?
• an enemy in Bastille?
• an enemy stun-locked by Banshee?
• an enemy without guns?
• being invisible?
• camping at location where enemies can't reach you?

When an ability comes with certain disadvantage, people would start to complain.
Would people complain if Hydroid Tentacle Swarm doesn't fling enemies about but just hold them still like Bastille?

[-CM-NineFingers]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Is there a question here? You seem to be missing some words. 

I can't use crayons here to try and make you understand this, but try reading again. specially to the part where I say, that, as an ability, doesn't do anything. Doesn't buff, doesn't make you safe (unless you use more abilites, kinda making your argument pointless -is an ability that by itself does nothing, and keeps you from doing anything, an ability?) Now all interactions with enemies outside of a cataclysm forces you to get in and out of the rift, and you lose mobility to compensate for the opportunity to not have to recast.

You don't seem to have played with Limbo before the rework, since you don't really seem to understand how game changing this part of the rework was. As the old Limbo, you had one power (rift surge), and a way to move yourself and enemies into the plane were that ability worked, Or, alternatively, move an static area into that dimension.

Now, Limbo has 3 powers and a way to move himself and enemies into the dimension where they work (counting cataclysm as a power right now until it gets nerfed, then we'll go back to two abilities -one of which has as a main part getting enemies into the rift, hence having only 1 ability and multiple ways to get people to were that ability works.

You can't compare other 2 abilities to rift walk, since those frames still work without that ability.It's not a core mechanic of the frame, it's just another ability that you can choose to use or not. With Limbo that's not a choice, you must use it. That's why it's perfectly fine as a passive.

[-CM-NineFingers]

12 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Some people are complaining because they can't accept/deal with the disadvantages/risks involving the Rift mechanic.
They want all the benefits without the disadvantages/risks.
They want the Rift mechanic to be able to affect the targets that they wanted regardless of the planes.
They want Stasis to stop enemies but not their bullets.
Just like wanting Tonkor to kill enemies without killing themselves.

See how many people who complain if

• Frost Snow Globe blocked bullets from both sides.
• Ember Fireball is able to thaw frozen targets.
• Frozen enemies resist damage due to being encased in Ice.
• Sound Quake violently shaking the ground as stated.
• Enemies able to use Ivara Dashwire.
• Enemies to take guesses and spray-firing at possible location of an invisible player.
• Atlas Tectonics also block players and allow to be stood on top of.
• Nekros can only desecrate bodies that are not totally disintegrated.

People don't usually complain about these because those abilities doesn't really have any disadvantages, only benefits.
Disadvantages of

• a frozen enemy?
• an enemy in Bastille?
• an enemy stun-locked by Banshee?
• an enemy without guns?
• being invisible?
• camping at location where enemies can't reach you?

When an ability comes with certain disadvantage, people would start to complain.
Would people complain if Hydroid Tentacle Swarm doesn't fling enemies about but just hold them still like Bastille?

Thanks for making sense. People won't complain as long as the overpowered mechanics work in their benefit without any drawback.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I was genuinely serious about what question you were asking, because you typed out a paragraph and ended with a question mark, but didn't actually finish the question. "Tell me more about how taking an ability..." what? 

But we're done here, since my question didn't actually warrant an insult. We are not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine.

[-CM-NineFingers]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I was genuinely serious about what question you were asking, because you typed out a paragraph and ended with a question mark, but didn't actually finish the question. "Tell me more about how taking an ability..." what? 

But we're done here, since my question didn't actually warrant an insult. We are not going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine.

True, just corrected it I apologize.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Just now, -CM-Limbo said:

True, just corrected it I apologize.

It's all good. Thanks!

[LSG501]

46 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Yeah, I just drop out of squads that have a Limbo or an Octavia. Be nice if there was a way to say "don't matchmake me with any of these warframes."

Octavia I can live with on the rare occasions I see it, I just mute the music in the settings and all's good :)

[(PSN)psycofang]

Now that the reworks on ps4 i still am not seeing a lot of limbos...like at all actually.

 

Saw mabye 1 newbie limbo learning the ropes and...zip.

Except myself of course.

In fact ps4 players seem to be having more fun when a limbos around moreso than what i saw on pc. Ppl running in circles around 1 mob surrounding it with explosives or asking for stasis to be used.

 

 

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Now that the reworks on ps4 i still am not seeing a lot of limbos...like at all actually.

 

Saw mabye 1 newbie limbo learning the ropes and...zip.

Except myself of course.

In fact ps4 players seem to be having more fun when a limbos around moreso than what i saw on pc. Ppl running in circles around 1 mob surrounding it with explosives or asking for stasis to be used.

 

 

They got it right. People on pc cares more about being the one who deals more damage more efficiently than to have fun with what the game offers.

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

They got it right. People on pc cares more about being the one who deals more damage more efficiently than to have fun with what the game offers.

 

I might upload a couple pictures ppl were using beam weapons in stasis to try and draw stars.

 

Since beam weapons act strangely in stasis all you see are the narrow hit box and it makes triangles.

 

We failed but still.

[Darizuka]

Building Limbo...

Finished building Limbo...

Hotfix happens 3 minutes later...

 

Comes on and check he's been nerfe-- "Fixed"

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[JefPlays]

I suggest you try him out before you jump to any conclusions. Kneejerk reactions are what get us into these situations in the first place

[RedDirtTrooper]

Congratulations, you all did it! Back to only dusting Limbo off for Lua spy missions if I don't feel like using Ivara, and for sortie rescues to banish the rescue target. At least now, I don't have to worry about if a Limbo is going to be useful and nuke me some affinity or run around ruining everything instead. The moment I see one in a game now I will immediately know that they will at best not use any abilities for the entire match, and at worse actively troll the entire team. Now I can just abort immediately if a Limbo joins any game I'm in. No more guesswork and sweating while waiting to find out. Thanks! 

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

11 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Congratulations, you all did it! Back to only dusting Limbo off for Lua spy missions if I don't feel like using Ivara, and for sortie rescues to banish the rescue target. At least now, I don't have to worry about if a Limbo is going to be useful and nuke me some affinity or run around ruining everything instead. The moment I see one in a game now I will immediately know that they will at best not use any abilities for the entire match, and at worse actively troll the entire team. Now I can just abort immediately if a Limbo joins any game I'm in. No more guesswork and sweating while waiting to find out. Thanks! 

Way ahead of you - I already:

A) only used Limbo for spy missions, because that's what he was for. Everybody whining about "now he can't kill people" and I'm like, "why you tryin' to kill people with Limbo?"

DE could have avoided a lot of work if they'd just observed how I used Limbo. 

[MobyTheDuck]

Quite the overnerf to Cataclysm, without fixing Limbo's troll potential.

He can still lock enemies inside the rift forever and turn 2/3 of your weapons useless if the player feels like it. What is stopping me from making a max range/duration build and just keep recasting Stasis?

All the nerf did was remove the scaling potential of Cataclysm. The damage change by bubble size was already enough to make Cataclysm spam not efficient, but changing the scaling just killed it like Mag's shield polarize was killed.
You should have reworked it to give players a reason to keep the enemies inside the cataclysm for longer, instead of just popping it on and off repeatedly.

IMO, I would fix it by making the enemies 'charge' with every second they stay inside the bubble. Longer they charge, more damage they take/deal once Cataclysm ends or they step outside the bubble.

[RedDirtTrooper]

5 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

He can still lock enemies inside the rift forever and turn 2/3 of your weapons useless if the player feels like it. What is stopping me from making a max range/duration build and just keep recasting Stasis?

I'm not going to lie, part of me is really rooting for just doing this non stop on, like, Akkad for the next four or five days. Maybe every game I play. all Limbo, all maxed duration and range stasis build all the time. Maybe I'd inspire even more people to do the same thing, and it would spread like wildfire all across the star chart. Pick an awful energy color, strap on all the mods, and just go to town... I'm pretty sure it would make me a horrible person, and the chances I'd actually catch one of the people who so noisily requested this nerf to deliver their just desserts are pretty slim, but I'm still tempted.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

3 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

I'm not going to lie, part of me is really rooting for just doing this non stop on, like, Akkad for the next four or five days. Maybe every game I play. all Limbo, all maxed duration and range stasis build all the time. Maybe I'd inspire even more people to do the same thing, and it would spread like wildfire all across the star chart. Pick an awful energy color, strap on all the mods, and just go to town... I'm pretty sure it would make me a horrible person, and the chances I'd actually catch one of the people who so noisily requested this nerf to deliver their just desserts are pretty slim, but I'm still tempted.

Go for it. If it gets DE looking into a "don't matchmake me with ____ Warframe" option, I'm 100% in favor of this trolling method. 

Bonus: DE gets a ton of data on what warframes people really hate playing alongside.

Edited April 19, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(PSN)psycofang]

So what got nerfed this time? Cant finf the notes.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

So what got nerfed this time? Cant finf the notes.

Cataclysm now does less damage the bigger it is, with damage increasing as the size decreases.

Also, the damage dealt is based on average HP+Shield of the enemies inside, not the total amount. 

The hotfix appears to only apply to the PC version at the moment. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Buzkyl]

1 hour ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Congratulations, you all did it! Back to only dusting Limbo off for Lua spy missions if I don't feel like using Ivara, and for sortie rescues to banish the rescue target. At least now, I don't have to worry about if a Limbo is going to be useful and nuke me some affinity or run around ruining everything instead. The moment I see one in a game now I will immediately know that they will at best not use any abilities for the entire match, and at worse actively troll the entire team. Now I can just abort immediately if a Limbo joins any game I'm in. No more guesswork and sweating while waiting to find out. Thanks! 

Because Limbo right now doesn't have one fo the best CC skills in the game and with rift torrent extremely high damage potential.

The cataclysm nerf happened exactly how i expect, people who only saw Limbo for a nuker now find him useless and likely will move to the next easy Nuke frame in their roster

[(XBOX)ZeroMKIX]

With new rework, I'm much happier with that than what I had in mind. So this thread is now officially pointless.