[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[TaylorsContraction]

One of the harder things to deal with when a limbo is on my team is not knowing when stasis will be turned off.  I could be running up to an enemy to melee them when suddenly they're free to move and shoot me in the face.

So my suggestion is in the last two second of the ability,  or upon deactivation,  enemies suffer a diminishing slow effect for 2 seconds that starts at 75-90% and diminishes to 0 after the 2 seconds.  It can even be 1.5 seconds, the goal is to let allied players know that stasis is over,  be careful if something is left standing.

I perceive this as a QoL change.

[DaveOneGo]

Hm, quite interesting idea.

[Erl-King]

I would prefer if instead of damage Cataclysm would just nullify enemies auras and special attacks. Let him be tenno nullifier.

Another idea is that max HP of enemies killed in Cataclysm adds to its collapse damage. This way it would be scalable, but not spammable.

Another idea is that enemies in Cataclysm could be damaged from outside (like inverted snowglobe), maybe by augment.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Erl-King

[PsiWarp]

Would they still freeze instantly if Stasis was reactivated? Or would they have to finish the slow first?

TBH, Limbo can just Banish before deactivating Stasis and knock down their bums after they unfreeze, be it while using Rift Surge to keep em in the Rift or just spamming 1 inside Cataclysm. But most people can't be bother with that...

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

As someone who tries to play a good limbo, I support this 100%

[-CM-NineFingers]

1 hour ago, LazyKnight said:

Old news, if you call that drastic, I think you have a bar set too low.

Do you think I haven't tried limbo? Old Limbo and New LImbo, I have tried both limbos and I know how to play as the character. 

CC that affects other players is different from that which targets the Ai. If you can not tell the difference between limbo and Vauban then maybe there is something wrong.

What did I post that is misinformation? Limbo affects and limits my game and that's a logical conclusion. The emotion I have is not liking the the limitations of said intrusion, and is beyond the point.

What Data? How his power works?

Keep calling me shortsighted. Keep insulting me whatever.  

1- It's not drastic going from "only enemies inside this bubble can hurt  us" to "nobody can hurt us, and we can only hurt those inside the bubble"? Damn, and here I was thinking that going from "everyone can die in rift" to "no ally dies if stasis is up, and no defense objective takes damage" was a big change.

2- Oh, no, I believe that you tried limbo. But if you can't see all the positive effects of something, and only list the bad side, that's both missinforming to everyone who hasn't and just pointless hatred to a frame. You know it, I know it, the neighbor dog knows it, let's move to the next point.

3- Yes, I can tell the difference. Vauban holds enemies still so you can shoot at them, while everything outside his bastille shoots at you. Stasis makes every enemy capable of hurting you stop, makes status last forever and forces you to use melee in exchange for that huge difference.

Does Bastille make you able to kill an enemy just with the slash procs of an unranked destreza with vulpine mask? (I use this as example cause it always produces a slash proc on the first hit of the combo, but any weapon can be used and the point still stands).

4- see 2.

5- give me proof of someone unable to play because of limbo. You can, I can too, but it's extremely rare to see a frame without damaging abilities and without a melee at the same time.

6- Shortsighted is not an insult, it's a description. Start giving feedback that can help a frame work better with a team instead of whining about how horrible it is to deal infinite lasting status effects, be immortal and regen energy at the same time. Don't have nothing against you for not liking a frame, but give good, valuable feedback instead of blind bashing.

 

P.S.: Loved how you ignored the part where I ask you to give me a warframe harder to use right than Limbo, and one to which the sentence "He is not complex or even take a working brain to use, and implying as much is a joke"  can't be applied to.

Edited April 20, 2017 by -CM-Limbo
corrected a typo

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CarpeNoctem365 said:

im on console aka the lame duck of the warframe family

i know,. i meant that limbo isnt affected by stuff like the hyena pack or magnetic annomalies. maybe that got changed in the latest pc update. which you dont have.

[Erl-King]

Instead of scaling damage on average health just add max HP of enemies killed in Cataclysm to its collapse damage. This way it would be scalable and able to kill enemies if you kill  few tough ones inside, but won't be spammable.
I don't get it, why overnerf it while they already have working scaling model with Mag magnetize. Just use similar scaling principle for Catactlysm and it would be usable without being too cheesy.
Alternative idea is that % of max HP of killed enemy applies to all enemies in Cataclysm.
 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Erl-King

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

1- It's not drastic going from "only enemies inside this bubble can hurt  us" to "nobody can hurt us, and we can only hurt those inside the bubble"? Damn, and here I was thinking that going from "everyone can die in rift" to "no ally dies if stasis is up, and no defense objective takes damage" was a big change.

If you want to argue over the semantics of the word 'drastic'; OK, that's sounds like fun! I see nothing radical or extreme in the limbo reworks, if you do great!.

Does anything about the change require math?

Does it require an in-depth study and a comparison to figure-out what was done?

Was it a large change like with ember going from a tank to glass cannon? 

Is limbo, still limbo?

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

2- Oh, no, I believe that you tried limbo. But if you can't see all the positive effects of something, and only list the bad side, that's both missinforming to everyone who hasn't and just pointless hatred to a frame. You know it, I know it, the neighbor dog knows it, let's move to the next point.

Lets get one thing clear. A limbo user receives 100% of the benefit of all his power with the most import thing control over them. 

No, lets not skip over this point. I tried limbo and I have played with other people using limbo and I see his negatives as far out weighting his positives. It's not up to you to decide if something is pointless or not. And If a limbo is in a party he controls how I am able to play, That's not misinforming anyone.

I do not need to list his positive when I am expressing how negatives irritate me.

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

5- give me proof of someone unable to play because of limbo. You can, I can too, but it's extremely rare to see a frame without damaging abilities and without a melee at the same time.

So you're saying that a limbo has a right to force another player to melee only or use powers? Good to know, that you're cool with a limbo having the right to dictate the LAW concerning what is and what is not allowed given field.

A limbo player doesn't not have the right to tell me I am forbidden from using my gun. Sorry, but the limbo can get lost.

 

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

6- Shortsighted is not an insult, it's a description. Start giving feedback that can help a frame work better with a team instead of whining about how horrible it is to deal infinite lasting status effects, be immortal and regen energy at the same time. Don't have nothing against you for not liking a frame, but give good, valuable feedback instead of blind bashing.

if you call me shortsighted again, I am reporting you. 

I know what his power do and how his CC function. However, I see him adversely affecting other players in game-play and overshadowing everything positive in his tool set. I am not blindly bashing, I am focusing on the issues of how he is able to control other player's actions.

Valuable feed back: I would rather have an AFK limbo or an empty slot over a limbo using his powers.

How's that? I do not care about any of his positives, if I am not playing as the limbo. Sorry, as far as I am concerned he is a black-hole that eats my immersion.

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

P.S.: Loved how you ignored the part where I ask you to give me a warframe harder to use right than Limbo, and one to which the sentence "He is not complex or even take a working brain to use, and implying as much is a joke"  can't be applied to.

I didn't ignore it, i conceded it to avoid arguing who is the most complicated Warframe to use. People keep saying "people just do not understand limbo and that why he's hated. "and i would responds that he takes as much skill to play as loki or frost. Nothing about him needs complex planing out of his rotation. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by LazyKnight

[Pizzarugi]

I wasn't a fan of the catabomb spam so I don't mind seeing the shrink = more damage nerf, but changing how the damage scales from total health to average may be going a little too far.

It's alright, I kinda like perma stasis and just meleeing helpless enemies anyway. It was literally the only way I was able to keep my team from killing themselves and the defense target in a radiation hazard sortie a couple days ago.

[stryker022]

18 hours ago, CTanGod said:

Do keep in mind that Stasis trivializes certain Riven mod challenges and helps a lot in fighting bosses with phases aswell. I don't think Limbo needs to be nerfed back into his old self just because people can't be bothered to use melee despite melee being broken op right now.

I don't intend this to be a nerf. This change would improve Limbo's usability in groups and make him more than another melee focused frame. Right now, Limbo is almost useless in non melee squads and he is seriously annoying in pubs. The only thing this change does is add another way to quickly kill enemies in stasis without having to cast/recast constantly.

[(PSN)JCM_Unlimited]

There is currently a bug in the PS4 build on limbo that causes weapons such as the opticor and ferrox to be unusable in the rift while under the effects of stasis. If you charge a shot and fire with either of them, the beam simply dissipates rather than freezing in midair. I thought maybe it was just a visual bug that was happening because of the weapons being hit scan, however after ending stasis the enemies that I shot at took no damage whatsoever. 

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

If you want to argue over the semantics of the word 'drastic'; OK, that's sounds like fun! I see nothing radical or extreme in the limbo reworks, if you do great!.

Does anything about the change require math?

Does it require an in-depth study and a comparison to figure-out what was done?

Was it a large change like with ember going from a tank to glass cannon? 

Is limbo, still limbo?

Lets get one thing clear. A limbo user receives 100% of the benefit of all his power with the most import thing control over them. 

No, lets not skip over this point. I tried limbo and I have played with other people using limbo and I see his negatives as far out weighting his positives. It's not up to you to decide if something is pointless or not. And If a limbo is in a party he controls how I am able to play, That's not misinforming anyone.

I do not need to list his positive when I am expressing how negatives irritate me.

So you're saying that a limbo has a right to force another player to melee only or use powers? Good to know, that you're cool with a limbo having the right to dictate the LAW concerning what is and what is not allowed given field.

A limbo player doesn't not have the right to tell me I am forbidden from using my gun. Sorry, but the limbo can get lost.

 

if you call me shortsighted again, I am reporting you. 

I know what his power do and how his CC function. However, I see him adversely affecting other players in game-play and overshadowing everything positive in his tool set. I am not blindly bashing, I am focusing on the issues of how he is able to control other player's actions.

Valuable feed back: I would rather have an AFK limbo or an empty slot over a limbo using his powers.

How's that? I do not care about any of his positives, if I am not playing as the limbo. Sorry, as far as I am concerned he is a black-hole that eats my immersion.

I didn't ignore it, i conceded it to avoid arguing who is the most complicated Warframe to use. People keep saying "people just do not understand limbo and that why he's hated. "and i would responds that he takes as much skill to play as loki or frost. Nothing about him needs complex planing out of his rotation. 

Report if you feel the need to do it, but I never insulted you. You also avoided giving an answer to all my points, and that says enough about your arguments. I'm done arguing with you sir, have a nice day.

Not giving all the information, just the negative one, IS missinforming. Not counting the positive aspects of an ability when critizising it IS missinforming. You don't like the cataclysm? go a few meters in ani direction and voilà! a whole map full of enemies for you to slain with your tigris and your aklex, enjoy it. It's absurd to say a limbo forbids you to play, unless we're talking about small maps. Then, bring an automatic weapon and crack the stasis. Done. Nobody forces you to use melee. a normal weapon with multishot mods can crack stasis in a mag, maybe two. Just fire at the enemies, he will recast, but you can keep shooting. Limbo doesn't force you to play by his rules, limbo's powers break because other players can still do what they want. It's the only player whose ability can be deactivated by other tenno. So how does this exactly forbids you from playing?

Edited April 20, 2017 by -CM-Limbo

[LazyKnight]

28 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

 You also avoided giving an answer to all my points, and that says enough about your arguments. I'm done arguing with you sir, have a nice day.

What point did I miss? 4 is 2. 

Do you want me to make a blasted list of his positives? You're stubborn and blind and avoid my points as well. What the point in posting just for a fanboy to white knight everything .

28 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Not giving all the information, just the negative one, IS missinforming. 

Not true, in this case. It's not misinformation. It's called having a grievances with the negative.  This is not an issue where the abilities positives come into play, they are neither necessary nor needed to be in a discussion when talking about the effects of the negatives.

28 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Limbo doesn't force you to play by his rules, limbo's powers break because other players can still do what they want. It's the only player whose ability can be deactivated by other tenno. So how does this exactly forbids you from playing?

Limbo does force both allies and enemies to play by his rules. Let's not move the goalpost on something self-evident. Can I deactivate what is done with limbo's "4" Nope, I have to move away from the player to get away from the effect. And if that a defense map I need to be away from the object, so why am I there?

28 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

. So how does this exactly forbids you from playing?

Lets see, how a maximum range cataclysm interact with a defense map or mobile defense game? So I have to leave the targeted area just to have the game behave in a normal way. Everything is under limbo's controls, if limbo want to keep thing banished or in stasis i have to play around him. He is far worse than the old blade storming Ash that made everything invincible.

Edited April 20, 2017 by LazyKnight

[DEATHLOK]

I see DE has once again destroyed a good warframe, refusing to fix a problem of their own making, but perfectly willing to Nerf it to death. The previous version of Limbo was pretty cool, but we can't have that, because reasons.

Edited April 20, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[-CM-NineFingers]

1 hour ago, LazyKnight said:

Limbo does force both allies and enemies to play by his rules. Let's not move the goalpost on something self-evident. Can I deactivate what is done with limbo's "4" Nope, I have to move away from the player to get away from the effect. And if that a defense map I need to be away from the object, so why am I there?

Why would you want to deactivate a long range cataclysm that is not using stasis? Only change you receive is energy regen. and if it's not a long range cataclysm, yes, you can move away from it. In any case, why would you want to deactivate the cataclysm? The thing you want (and can) deactivate is the stasis. Don't see the need to deactivate his 4th -honest question here-.

Quote

Lets see, how a maximum range cataclysm interact with a defense map or mobile defense game? So I have to leave the targeted area just to have the game behave in a normal way. Everything is under limbo's controls, if limbo want to keep thing banished or in stasis i have to play around him. He is far worse than the old blade storming Ash that made everything invincible.

If someone uses long range Catastasis on defenses or MD, empty your mags in the area, that will teach him. I use a minimum range, about 8-10m, and people (myself included) just play around it. It keeps the objective safe, and we just clean the enemies around it. Never had a problem with anyone using that tactic.

Quote

Not true, in this case. It's not misinformation. It's called having a grievances with the negative.  This is not an issue where the abilities positives come into play, they are neither necessary nor needed to be in a discussion when talking about the effects of the negatives.

Well, I too want changes to happen with stasis and cata to make them less intrusive and more rewarding. But that doesn't mean that I would only list the positives or the negatives.

Let's face it, does a limbo, in general terms and with a standard pug team, benefit the team overall? I'd say, in most cases, it does. Having the ability to create a safe spot on a level is unvaluable, limbo can mantain choke points by himself with a minimum range cata, immobilize bigger threats or keep a squishy caster alive and safe, all while atracting aggro and moving between dimensions to capture enemy groups and kill them fast and easily. Let's not talk about rescue missions, where he truly shines.

Does a Limbo have negative effects? Sure as hell it does. A range/duration build can mess you up if you use a bow or sniper (as shotguns and automatic weapons have little to no problem breaking the stasis cap), but if you break the cap, all bullets will travel to the target, and if he recasts, do it again. He's the only one who will lose with that strategy, you will play as normal, he will lose energy. And I'm perfectly okay with purposefully breaking limbo's 2, because it can be detrimental if nobody knows the limbo will be popping timestop bubbles the size of an aircraft carrier.

I'm not in favour of an intrusive skillset either; But Limbo can be an unvaluable asset to a team, that's a fact. It's just not well suited for public games, where people (a big portion of them are just trying to learn how to use him, keep in mind) don't go with a set strategy, and just try to shoot things in the face until a reward is given. Should we have an option to not play with X or Y frame? I hope that doesn't appear, ever. I would probably use it too, and to purge a considerable number of frames, but that would be seriously bad for the game.

I mostly play as support roles, to me part of the whole fun is adapting to the rest of the team. Finding frames that don't let you participate in the mission (old Simulage, and mostly all nukes and AoE dmg dealers, awful Limbos) is never fun, couldn't agree more. But what I mean is that we can't always play exactly our way, and you can have lots of fun overcoming the challenges other players pose. This is a multiplayer anyway, why shoot in the same map that other 3 guys if nothing ever changes?

[(PSN)psycofang]

8

So our journey to draw stasis stars in MoT came to a massive failure but in light of the failure me and 3 other Limbos like an hour in MOT came to an understanding that there can only be one true Limbo.

 

So for roughly 49 extra minutes we were trying to out kill each other while trying to get each other killed by screwing with each others rift walks and stasis, while banish sabotaging each other.

 

Cata rift stripping was a thing in there and all in all ps4 players are pretty fun to be around.

Edited April 21, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

16 hours ago, kyori said:

Loki no need naramon. 

How do you survive their disco ball attack? It can one shot you at level 100 and it attacks indiscriminately without lock on.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Did you guys know you can burn enemies with rift transition damage using Cataclysm and Stasis? If you leave an enemy in Stasis and the Cataclysm event horizon passes over them, they will get burned by several damage splats of rift transition. And if they go into the Cataclysm again, the cycle repeats until they're dead. Its not super strong but it is comparable to Ember WoF but stationary instead of mobile.

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Why would you want to deactivate a long range cataclysm that is not using stasis? Only change you receive is energy regen. and if it's not a long range cataclysm, yes, you can move away from it. In any case, why would you want to deactivate the cataclysm? The thing you want (and can) deactivate is the stasis. Don't see the need to deactivate his 4th -honest question here-.

When inside the event, the optical distortion gives me eye fatigue and seeing the event horizon with a bright color gives a sharp contrast that is too much for me. I know some people chose black as a color and then it's hard for me to see where the event horizon is and what has been put in stasis. Just to contrast this, It's very clear with frost and his chilling globe when something has been turned into an ice sculpture.

My other issue, is that I can not shot things outside the event horizon or things on the edge. This is just me being annoyed, because on a Grineer map everything is outside the event shooting at it with few Ai moving inside.  This makes the game-play (for me) feel like a worse version of snow globe.

Edit: I am not ignoring the other points just clarifying why his '4' bothers me.

Edited April 21, 2017 by LazyKnight

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)CarpeNoctem365 said:

thats weird i kept on getting pulled out of the rift by a hyena in today's sortie

They have an attack. Like a green bubble thing. It acts like a nullifier bubble when it touches you. I think Zanuka and one of the Bursas can do this too.

[Celetille]

How the hell do you play as Limbo without being pure melee. The frozen projectiles looks cool, but it's useless. You gain nothing from pausing the projectiles. No damage, no flight speed, nothing. AND, there's a projectile maximum for stasis. Shoot too much and it undoes stasis, making all your frozen enemies reanimate and blast you back onto the ground. Like Nyx before this patch, allies can grief you by spamming projectiles to break your stasis in the rift. I would suggest NOT freezing projectiles while under the effects of stasis.

[(PSN)psycofang]

10 minutes ago, Celetille said:

How the hell do you play as Limbo without being pure melee

You line up shots like a boss

11 minutes ago, Celetille said:

. The frozen projectiles looks cool, but it's useless.

Except the perfect head shots on everything in the rift near simultaneously.

11 minutes ago, Celetille said:

You gain nothing from pausing the projectiles

Breh...rift torrent and tumultuous levels of safety lining up those shots like a boss.

If someones shattering your stasis just cast it again. I just got done playing stasis tag with 3 other limbos.

 

[hukurokuju5]

its basically a numbers fix to gimp the nuke aspect of it.   stasis is still godlike

[Celetille]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

You line up shots like a boss

Except the perfect head shots on everything in the rift near simultaneously.

Breh...rift torrent and tumultuous levels of safety lining up those shots like a boss.

If someones shattering your stasis just cast it again. I just got done playing stasis tag with 3 other limbos.

 

You can line up shots with moving projectiles. It's the enemies that are frozen which allow you to line up shots, not the frozen projectiles.You aren't addressing my issue. Having frozen projectiles leads to either overkill or underkill. Overkill, you waste ammo. Underkill, you didnt kill the enemy and they kill you. There is NO gameplay value from frozen projectiles and looking cool should not be an excuse for pigeon-holing gameplay styles.

Stasis has the same problem as old limbo. It's clunky, and clunky isn't fun