Revisiting the need for a kicks and filters.

[Ryunokage]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

And, if you get kicked at the end of a mission because trolls gonna troll, and you lose all progress, how does that help you?  You seem to believe that you'll be on the kicking end all the time and you'll be the responsible person who only kicks people who should be kicked, based on your judgment.  Yet, you won't be the sole person with that power and it can just as easily be used against you, and the person doing it may be trolling or may feel they are entirely reasonable in kicking you just as you would feel entirely reasonable whenever you perform a kick of someone else.  I'm pretty sure you wouldn't see it that way if you were the one being kicked, however.

1. Those random trolls whom you describe will fall into certain patterns of behaviors, i am quite confident in my ability to spot and identify these people and leave the game on my own accord when I find them.

2. The situation is still dependant on how it becomes implemented. If DE were you implement the kick feature as being only available to the host for example, i could circumvent the issue by hosting games as frequently as nessesary.

3. What you describe is a short term issue. With time i'll have a list of people who have been known to engage in this sort of behaviour and will know whose game i shouldn't risk myself in.

4. As a general rule of thumb, other people aren't reasonable. If they were I and my colleagues would have long been out of a job. The medical profession is predicated on human beings routinely taking the worst possible, most harmful and irresponsible decisions in life.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

5 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

1. Those random trolls whom you describe will fall into certain patterns of behaviors, i am quite confident in my ability to spot and identify these people and leave the game on my own accord when I find them.

2. The situation is still dependant on how it becomes implemented. If DE were you implement the kick feature as being only available to the host for example, i could circumvent the issue by hosting games as frequently as nessesary.

3. What you describe is a short term issue. With time i'll have a list of people who have been known to engage in this sort of behaviour and will know whose game i shouldn't risk myself in.

4. As a general rule of thumb, other people aren't reasonable. If they were I and my colleagues would have long been out of a job. The medical profession is predicated on human beings routinely taking the worst possible, most harmful and irresponsible decisions in life.

1. Sure, you may remember a name after having been kicked.  At that point, the damage is already done, however.  Or, do you think you can tell when someone is going to kick you before they actually do it?  Sorry, not really possible.

2. That would require DE to implement a feature where you can choose to host games instead of the current feature.  And, then everyone will want to host so that they have the kick power and because we all know everyone else's internet sucks, amiright?

3. Short term issues can cause long term harm to the community.  Also, your list would be continually growing, especially on Xbox One if you were on that platform.  It might be short term as a serious issue, but it would be a long term annoyance and continual anxiety.

4. Regardless, they would see any kick you make as unreasonable and you would likely see any kick you receive as such, even if in both cases the kicker felt the action was perfectly reasonable.

[MagPrime]

5 hours ago, Ryunokage said:

Its a very good analogy.

For all the risks that medication might bring, death, illness, permanent loss of function, it can also prevent keep people alive and prevent the spread of disease. The benefits are proportional to the risks. The same can be applied to a kick feature, we might risk the abuse of such a feature which would lead to people becoming unhappy about being kicked, vs the benefits of people having access to such a tool: Removing exploitative players or individuals who abuse things like slide attack macros. 

In both cases the benefits and the risks are proportional to each other. While you might think that a kick feature might lead to abuse and a toxic community, i might regard the use of a kick feature that allows me to maintain control of my time and the game i'm currently in to outweigh the risks of the abuses that you so described.

No...

Medicine is not comparable to a kick feature.  No one is going to die, lose a limb, slip into a coma, or anything like that, if they're kicked from a team. 

 

[(PSN)samppaH]

What if... Player Rate System after mission?

Via rating the Player who have accumulated enough rates on on badside will be punished somehow or won't be able to join players with good ratings matches. Rating Working Via variables, For example. A list on things Like Mismatched, Sabotage, Idle, chat abuse are locked unless certain conditions are met

A Person Idles during defense mission. If that Player doesn't move enough during mission and/or make any kill, the option to vote Rate player as Idler becomes open. Preventing Mean groups from making False bad rating on Players.

Players who would gather enough hazard votes would be filtered into groups with other players with hazard votes. Players Of course would be notified if they received a hazard note and be told to fix this attitude.

 

for filter, it need to be update to some extend that which word combinations are to be filtered and which are not.

[Currilicious]

Simplest solution:

For the host:

- Allow/disallow frames (there is only 30+)

- Allow/disallow weapon types (too many to list every one)

- Allow/disallow consumables

That could start as the base, built upon and fine tuned.

 

Anyway, medicine and vehicle use is properly regulated and these regulations are strictly enforced. If you get kicked for the lulz of some asswipe, you just have to live with it. Also, bad medicine or a moron behind the wheel can get someone killed, so a dude with a weapon-of-mass-rekage pales very much in comparison. The very assumption that this dude is trying to troll anyone is also unsubstantiated, baseless even. Some people just opt for efficiency, that's what floats his boat.

So in conclusion, lets not be extremists here. Think of a middle ground that doesn't come with a Pandora's box scenario, introduce public game filters. 

[Ryunokage]

On 15/04/2017 at 2:37 AM, Currilicious said:

So in conclusion, lets not be extremists here. Think of a middle ground that doesn't come with a Pandora's box scenario, introduce public game filters. 

Thank you for being constructive currilicious.

What about players who are being intentionally disruptive however? For example during a radiation sortie, if someone with a torid or any other weapon that leaves an aoe cloud, decides to go tag the vip and then run into a radiation cloud. Or otherwise if you have some AoE happy player who likes nuking the entire map, even if it means kill in all his squad mates too?

While true, they might well be avoided using the correct filter settings. It needs also be mentioned that people who are looking to cause trouble, will do so regardless of the barriers in the way. I see a kick feature as being something we can use to even the field as it were, a threat that can be hung over their heads should they want to get up to mischief.

@MagPrime

As i mentioned before, its a very good analogy because it compares the proportionate risks to the proportionate rewards.

It does apply to the kick feature because while the value of a life might pale in comparison to my desire for a structured and ordered game session, the risks of abuse to the victim of some troll pale next to the potential for death that medicine bears.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Ryunokage

[Arezael]

I didn't read through all of this so apologies if it's already been stated - I'm not opposed to a kick feature, since it has it's uses however in every single game I've played with it implemented, the community had found a way to abuse the crap out of it to their own personal ends.

This included frequently seeing it in SW:ToR and Final Fantasy XIV - although luckily since I mainly play tanks and healers in those types of games, I'm rarely on the receiving end. It however didn't stop people from removing others for seemingly no reason even if it were apparent that I was opposed to them being kicked (and I assume - the possibility I might leave and they'd have to wait ages for another tank/healer to join).

I don't see how you can stop the people who outright want to troll from finding a way of doing so, even with a kick button. I'm not even sure DE can remove/change things at a root level (radiation procs+team killing etc) without changing the way the game functions too much.

It's a shame people can't just exercise self control in public - now that's a ridiculous idea if ever there was one.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Arezael
Typo

[Carnage2K4]

IDK about a kick, personally I think DE while they made Limbo fun to play for the limbo player, also made him more of a troll frame than before for anyone else, so now not only can he put us in the rift and break hacking via cataclysm... He can also stop us using ranged weapons... awesome... no really it's just terrific...

 

I just don't bother playing with limbos anymore, if a clan mate goes Limbo, I tell him he's not welcome in the clan squad, If it's a pug with a Limbo, I leave... If this is the kind of interaction DE wanted with limbo... well congrats I guess.

Limbo is Cancer and I will not be in a squad with one.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[Kusungphak]

I would hate a kick feature and I will never play public and only stick to invite with clan and solo. I know how a kick usually works. Played enough CSGO to know how it is abused.

[CeePee]

6 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I just don't bother playing with limbos anymore, if a clan mate goes Limbo, I tell him he's not welcome in the clan squad, If it's a pug with a Limbo, I leave... If this is the kind of interaction DE wanted with limbo... well congrats I guess.

Limbo is Cancer and I will not be in a squad with one.

This exactly is why there will never be a kick function in the game. It's you who adapts, you don't dictate how others play.

Yesterday I had a very toxic host on Sortie 3 when I played Limbo and literally carried the whole mobile defence. Sorties are already boring so for me I find the best and fastest ways to cheese through them, like CC'ing everything around the defence point.

Well this host, being a nice person, decided to start watching 1080p streams (his words) while being a host because he didn't like me being Limbo. This in turn made everyone else lag like crazy, my ping went up to 1500 ms and this continued until the very end, the other 2 in the party also complained about the lag but there was no host migration.

And before you go all iffy, no the party had no other frame that could've protected the mobile defence points, they would've most likely failed without me.

[Ryunokage]

8 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

IDK about a kick, personally I think DE while they made Limbo fun to play for the limbo player, also made him more of a troll frame than before for anyone else, so now not only can he put us in the rift and break hacking via cataclysm... He can also stop us using ranged weapons... awesome... no really it's just terrific...

 

I just don't bother playing with limbos anymore, if a clan mate goes Limbo, I tell him he's not welcome in the clan squad, If it's a pug with a Limbo, I leave... If this is the kind of interaction DE wanted with limbo... well congrats I guess.

Limbo is Cancer and I will not be in a squad with one.

That is very much the reason why i feel we need a kick function inorder to maintain some manner of order or structure to the manner in which we play.

We've already seen some very good examples of how allowing people to run wild is deleterious to the experience, especially for those whom they happen to be playing with. Its cases like @CeePee who embody the sort of people i consider beneath me and would go out of my way to avoid.

Just because he wishes to cheese the mission does not mean the rest of us wish to do the same, but the manner in which he plays forces the rest of us into his playmode. Having a kick function is a good back up to a polite word, which is more often then not unheeded.

[CeePee]

12 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

We've already seen some very good examples of how allowing people to run wild is deleterious to the experience, especially for those whom they happen to be playing with. Its cases like @CeePee who embody the sort of people i consider beneath me and would go out of my way to avoid.

You enter public, you expect public. It's a whole another can of worms if you open that much power up for abuse, it will be abused.

If you don't want a certain weapon or frame in the group, play solo, or with friends. You either adapt or leave, you don't make others leave.

[Carnage2K4]

5 hours ago, CeePee said:

Yesterday I had a very toxic host on Sortie 3 when I played Limbo and literally carried the whole mobile defence. Sorties are already boring so for me I find the best and fastest ways to cheese through them, like CC'ing everything around the defence point.

Well this host, being a nice person, decided to start watching 1080p streams (his words) while being a host because he didn't like me being Limbo. This in turn made everyone else lag like crazy, my ping went up to 1500 ms and this continued until the very end, the other 2 in the party also complained about the lag but there was no host migration.

And before you go all iffy, no the party had no other frame that could've protected the mobile defence points, they would've most likely failed without me.

I'm not going to assume to know the squad configuration, but that seems to be a somewhat typical Limbo attitude, "they would've most likely failed without you"... I've had Limbos say they carried us as all they do is endless cataclysm spam with max range... doesn't matter if I went in with my poor efficiently Frost with GF as EV Trin and it would have been a breeze... nope Limbo does all the work while they essentially stop everyone else from playing the game... I actually really hate limbo players these days, always with the arrogance. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[MagPrime]

6 hours ago, CeePee said:

You enter public, you expect public. It's a whole another can of worms if you open that much power up for abuse, it will be abused.

If you don't want a certain weapon or frame in the group, play solo, or with friends. You either adapt or leave, you don't make others leave.

Have to agree with this.

 

[Ryunokage]

11 hours ago, CeePee said:

You enter public, you expect public. It's a whole another can of worms if you open that much power up for abuse, it will be abused.

If you don't want a certain weapon or frame in the group, play solo, or with friends. You either adapt or leave, you don't make others leave.

When i enter the public space, I expect people to behave in a civilised manner. Just like you claim that you have a right to play as you wish to, so do I.

However your mode of play overrides and supersedes my own through the game's mechanics and there's nothing through game play, that i can do about it.

My mode of adapting to belligerence like yours, is to expunge it with all due haste. So in a manner of speaking, I am doing precisely what you say, adapting.

Believe me, i respond to everything else i might encounter during my day to day life in the same manner. Whether it might be problematic people on warframe, or nurses on the ward who refuses to obey my orders.

[Currilicious]

On 4/17/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ryunokage said:

Thank you for being constructive currilicious.

What about players who are being intentionally disruptive however? For example during a radiation sortie, if someone with a torid or any other weapon that leaves an aoe cloud, decides to go tag the vip and then run into a radiation cloud. Or otherwise if you have some AoE happy player who likes nuking the entire map, even if it means kill in all his squad mates too?

While true, they might well be avoided using the correct filter settings. It needs also be mentioned that people who are looking to cause trouble, will do so regardless of the barriers in the way. I see a kick feature as being something we can use to even the field as it were, a threat that can be hung over their heads should they want to get up to mischief.

@MagPrime

As i mentioned before, its a very good analogy because it compares the proportionate risks to the proportionate rewards.

It does apply to the kick feature because while the value of a life might pale in comparison to my desire for a structured and ordered game session, the risks of abuse to the victim of some troll pale next to the potential for death that medicine bears.

I feel there is no answer to that one.

I do come across maggots like that once in a while. I also retaliate when I am sure it is intentional. However that being said, the kick option will also arm these sad excuses of human beings with another tool of mischief.

I am not sure I want to deal with another dimension of asshattery.

[ShadowStalker]

kick feature? nah people will probably abuse it an troll people then youL make a thead called-----"i was kicked for no reason"-- "players kicking falsely"--- so its better just to avoid it and 

1-you can play whatever you want-kicking just cause someone is using a frame that gets more kills then you   WTF M8?..pathetic

2-case of "i cant get more kills then him ...kick" 

3-not happening :)

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[Rawbeard]

what's the abuse going on with Limbo? other than people being salty because they sold him and can't get him back for free I really don't see what the problem is at the moment.

[(PSN)zeltwang]

1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

what's the abuse going on with Limbo? other than people being salty because they sold him and can't get him back for free I really don't see what the problem is at the moment.

It's not Limbo per say, it's the fact that someone using Limbo can make any mission un-enjoyable for some by putting people in the rift whenever they want.  Can be useful at times if it's a planned thing with a friend.  

The real issue is getting stuck in a group with two different game plans on how to complete the mission.  For example, I was doing Akkad and I took in Ivara with my Zenistar.  Got a speed Nova to join first and I'm thinking sweet, we'll wipe this out in no time.  Then we get a frost that not only puts a bubble on the defense target but also at the two doors in the corner. Two conflicting plans, one pissed speed Nova.  I wasn't thrilled cuz it's hard to place the Zenistar disc with the bubble right on the defense target but whatever. Ideally the frost would have adapted and just spammed avalanche but by the size of his bubble I'm guessing he had no range. 

Maybe the real issue is no one being willing to adapt to the group's needs, just want to play how they want to play.  Guess my suggestion is, play solo or learn to adapt.  

 

[M4D_0f_0C5]

On 12.4.2017 at 8:33 AM, Ryunokage said:

On 12.4.2017 at 8:42 AM, WindigoTP said:

The main reason I NEED a kick function - tennos who constantly give the operative in defence missions some useless crap of a weapon and prolonging the mission to infinity, instead of letting him use Hikou P. and shred everything in seconds.

A function to punch these tennos in the face through monitor would be quite usefull too, but kicking would be a good start.

 

---- update ----

 

Going back to clarify that I do not want to be too provocative and do not intend this as an actual argument in favor of a kick feature.

Consider it as, I dunno, a vent of frustration, I guess?

In reality such situations isn't really a problem. Not the one "Friends only" option can not solve, anyway.

Limbo's latest rework and rampant abuses have demonstrated the long unmet need that warframe has for a kick function.

However this is only the latest example of anti-social abuses that players can get up to, aided and abetted by game design, which fall into a grey area which DE may not have sufficient grounds to enact punitive action upon.

We have had prior examples to this, including mirage-spam, soundquake banshees and other associated abuses that, while having little but benefit to the player abusing it, have otherwise made the game all but unplayable for his squadmates.

Given that DE is but a small company with only so many staff, I would believe it to be a stretch to think that they could keep on top of player behavior and arrest issues like this in a reasonable degree of time. You need only look at how long it took before the simulor, telos boltace and tonkors were addressed. While there are ongoing and long standing issues with exploitative builds still possible in the game.

We need to have stop-gap measures like matchmaking filters and kick options that would allow players to take action on their own accord, just to tide them over till DE can address the issues raised. I believe it is time to revisit the idea of kicks and matchmaking filters give the especially disruptive nature of limbo abuse.

 

When i read this 2 comments, i thought first of a too late april fools try from 2 trolls. The only thing i could say to his is, why you dont play alone???? They want to force other players to play that it fits THEIR gamestyle. Mirage was not an abuse, the frame was given from DE, the weapon too and the player made what intelligent human do, they tried to get the most power of this combo, is this abusing??? Is using Banshees Soundquake a exploit or abuse?!?!? Same for Limbos Catacylsm. 

The is a cooperative game and not a competitive, so it doesnt matter, if player 1 or player2 makes the dmg, if they are in affinity range, they get the equal amount of xp.

I really dont care if there is a Banshee, Limbo or Mirage before the nerf in my team, because it doesnt count who kills, the only thing is that the mobs have to be killed. So if one of this frames is on the mission, im sure that the mission is successful and fast done. I want to play how i want and forma my weapon how i want and i dont want that a few crying kiddies vote kick me at the end of the mission, cause i have done to much dmg!!!

 

P.S:

I really cant understand that player complains about limbo, mirage and banshee but they NEVER mention EMBER, while this frame is more powerful in low lvl than any other, cause she can move while toggeled ability and kill everything instant !!!!

Edited April 18, 2017 by M4D_0f_0C5

[Hydal]

Every time this topic comes up, I've got the same response and not heard anyone give a solid counter. 

Instead of adding any form of kick/vote kicking, DE should add in an abort mission exfil point into every mission.

The exfil location would be placed right at mission starting locations, and would require the player go to that spot and use their interact button to bail out of the mission, not getting completion rewards (unless already gotten them in an endless gametype), but keeping everything they've gotten so far.

 

I've yet to hear someone provide a scenario where you'd get stuck with someone from matchmaking and the option to leave while keeping your current loot wasn't good enough. That for some reason, you had to kick that player. The closest I've heard is raids, but those don't use general matchmaking, require keys, and could be abused to quickly farm boosters.

 

.

 

IMO, instead of asking for any form of player kicking system, you should be asking for the ability to self-extract from missions whenever you want. 

[(PSN)zeltwang]

11 minutes ago, Hydal said:

Every time this topic comes up, I've got the same response and not heard anyone give a solid counter. 

Instead of adding any form of kick/vote kicking, DE should add in an abort mission exfil point into every mission.

The exfil location would be placed right at mission starting locations, and would require the player go to that spot and use their interact button to bail out of the mission, not getting completion rewards (unless already gotten them in an endless gametype), but keeping everything they've gotten so far.

 

I've yet to hear someone provide a scenario where you'd get stuck with someone from matchmaking and the option to leave while keeping your current loot wasn't good enough. That for some reason, you had to kick that player. The closest I've heard is raids, but those don't use general matchmaking, require keys, and could be abused to quickly farm boosters.

 

.

 

IMO, instead of asking for any form of player kicking system, you should be asking for the ability to self-extract from missions whenever you want. 

I'm all in favor of this but they have to fix the host migration issues first.  If the host leaves right now, everyone else is likely screwed as the game will freeze and those that are left have to abort mission. Fix that and I like your solution.

[Hydal]

1 minute ago, (PS4)zeltwang said:

I'm all in favor of this but they have to fix the host migration issues first.  If the host leaves right now, everyone else is likely screwed as the game will freeze and those that are left have to abort mission. Fix that and I like your solution.

 

That's not really a valid argument against the idea. A host can abort or DC from a mission at any time, and in most scenarios when someone is running away from a greifer, they are just going to eat the loss and hit abort.

 

You really can't use a hypothetical secondary effect of a new system like that to justify not making it in the first place. If DE followed that logic, nothing would ever get added to the game. 

[(PSN)zeltwang]

Just now, Hydal said:

 

That's not really a valid argument against the idea. A host can abort or DC from a mission at any time, and in most scenarios when someone is running away from a greifer, they are just going to eat the loss and hit abort.

 

You really can't use a hypothetical secondary effect of a new system like that to justify not making it in the first place. If DE followed that logic, nothing would ever get added to the game. 

I"m not arguing against your idea.  All I'm saying is the host migration problems right now are so bad that letting the host leave whenever and keep whatever loot they've already gotten, is going to screw anyone that wants to stay. Maybe PC doesn't have these issues but PS4 does.  If you are doing endless relic runs, you better know who the host is and if they leave, you leave or all your rewards go bye bye.  I could give two cares if someone needs to go, let them go, just make sure the game doesn't screw everyone else out of their stuff because the person leaving unannounced happens to be the host. 

[Rawbeard]

4 hours ago, (PS4)zeltwang said:

putting people in the rift whenever they want.

considering rolling is essential movement tool I doubt most people even notice they accidentally got shot into the rift. banish is an AoE now, so you can get sucked in even if Limbo didn't intend to.