Remove Tonkor Entirely (Or bring back the old one)

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

What DE could have done was added an alt fire that shot weaker concussive grenades.

[PrVonTuckIII]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Sneak Attack 65 said:

What DE could have done was added an alt fire that shot weaker concussive grenades.

And pray tell, how would that actually fix the problem?

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

8 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

And pray tell, how would that actually fix the problem?

You would get the fun grenade jumps from the alt fire, while the primary fire still has the same risk as other explosive weapons.

[Mu_Gera]

The grenade jump is useless, but the amount of damage it could do due to being the only luancher that could red crit combined with barely any self damage and easy acquisition meant no other luancher was worth it (besides syn simulor and barely Zarr).

But I would agree that the crit and self damage nerf were both unnecessary, only one was needed to bring it in line.

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Sneak Attack 65 said:

You would get the fun grenade jumps from the alt fire, while the primary fire still has the same risk as other explosive weapons.

Thats a good one.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

So you're a level 6 Banshee, with no health or shield mods, and you expect the blast damage not to kill you?

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, BloodForTheBloodGods said:

So you're a level 6 Banshee, with no health or shield mods, and you expect the blast damage not to kill you?

Well you can shot exploding energy cubes, fire flame directly at your feet, shoot gas pockets, lethal electric mines and none of these can kill you.

It feels a bit silly that only explosive launchers deal self damage just because traditionally those always deal self damage in a game where i can use the upper ones safely.

[Zookes]

Would prefer lethal self-damage to go away. Silly things such as Sonicor space program are permitted to exist, tho the same with a Tonkor, Penta, or Ogris cannot happen because "realism" or "balance"???

Self damage maybe must exist to punish bad playing, tho why allow self one-shot? Maybe self-damage should be limited to shields only?

[Sunslayer31]

I don't mind tonkor's self damage. "respect explosives" and stuff like that. But i really enjoyed rocket jumps with tonkor. It was HUGE mobility buff when you know how to use it. For example, i was able to fly from one end of corpus hangar to another without touching ground and walls with ANY warframe. that was somewere near 250 in game meters and it was not limit, just longest straight place i could think of without relying on map generating RNG. i can throw in video if you want. I would like to see rocket jumps return as alt-fire (or augment) with no damage at all, even against enemies.

Also, after they reworked aiming line, grenade launches on button release (not push), making annoying shot delay and throwing me off firing tempo and resulting in accidentally not firing some shots.

[KazeUindo]

All I see is:

Weapon not OP

Weapon no longer fun

 

The Tonkor still crits, just no longer constant red crits. Yes it's sad that it got nerfed, but now that it did I don't feel like I'm nerfing myself by using another launcher. I did not touch any other primary launcher solely because nothing else was nearly as good(and Mirage with shooting 6 grenades with one pull of the trigger; INSTANT room clear). Now I use Orgis and even though its not modded for crit, the raw damage it does is more than enough +the crowd control makes its sortie viable. 

[Bobtm]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:33 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Look at the third video, Let me know what other grenade launcher goes straight between enemy legs, or can bounce and kill you.

All shots can pass between enemy legs if you don't aim well, allowing the shot to pass through enemy legs.  Not all of the launchers' projectiles however can bounce.

On 5/18/2017 at 10:36 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Tonkor was never the most used. Simply cause it required too much forma to make it into a good weapon. No polarity slots and you needed crit on it to have it even compete.

That is not accurate at all.  Prior to the addition of the Synoid Simulor, the Tonkor had a very heavy monopoly over folks' loadouts.  For reference, the Tonkor was released on April 23rd, 2015 while the Synoid Simulor was released on September 2nd, 2015.  At which time you started to see a very minor shift from one to the other.  Eventually to the point where you could be nearly guaranteed that any upper-level mission you went into would likely have at least one player using one of these two firearms.

The initial fix that helped knock them both down a peg was the one that removed guaranteed headshots from all AoE weaponry.  Then the balance pass which occurred more recently put these weapons in a more appropriate place.  The Tonkor is still very strong as a weapon, but can no longer be used carelessly.

Also just a note for posterity's sakes;  U17 was on July 31st, 2015.  This was when we got Parkour 2.0, and when the Tonkor's grenade jump mechanic lost 99% of its relevance as a unique trait.  The largest of all the issues with the Tonkor is honestly how ludicrously long it took for them to add self-damage onto it.  That date being March 24th, 2017.

Needing crit is not an issue at all either.  Both of the standard crit mods are relatively easy to obtain, compared to the acquisition of Status based mods.  Meaning that crit weapons are objectively easier to mod for, for a newer player.

On 5/18/2017 at 10:36 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

All you need to do to make a weapon rival a launcher is to put punch through on it. Tigris prime with punch through? Might as well be a launcher with 3x the ammo capacity, no risk, and less hassle.

The Tigris is a potent weapon without a doubt.  However it cannot kill radially (exception; Sancti's proc at lower level), only linearly whilst modded for Punch Through.  Trying to downplay the effectiveness of launcher weapons is the wrong way to go about this point.  Launchers are incredibly powerful in a game that is based so primarily on combat vs large numbers of foes.

On 5/18/2017 at 8:19 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

But the rocket jumping, close range mechanic where you only suffered 50 self damage when this weapon exploded too close to you.

They could always put an alt-fire mechcanic on the Tonkor which would fire a grenade that does almost no damage, but allows for a grenade jump for the user.

I can assure you that the damage was precisely why folks used the Tonkor.  Fun but quirky and overall underpowered weapons do not see widespread use throughout the playerbase at large.

On 5/18/2017 at 11:31 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Most people picked up the weapon, looked at its 0 polarity and threw it away after leveling it up. Without any forma/catalysts, it's an utterly terrible weapon and most new players never bothered. Out of the people who could make it, it's only a fraction of Simulor's popularity and that's only more true now.

Incorrect again.  The Tonkor held far, far more widespread use than the Simulor did for a very, very long time.  The reason being;  Mastery Rank Lock.  The Tonkor's MR lock is 5.  The Synoid Simulor's is 12.  The standard Simulor's lock too is only MR 5, however it held the prerequisite of requiring a player to rank up quite a bit within the Simaris syndicate.  Which is a larger entry cost when compared to the fact that the Tonkor is a standard market blueprint weapon.

It was very late into the reign of these two weapons that the Simulor started to become more popular between the two.  And even then, it was not by anything close to a lion's share.

_________________________________

As an addendum, there is a greater issue with the overall mechanics of self-damage in Warframe for sure.  Players in most types of games are not generally going to be fond of getting one-shotted very suddenly.  It is a good mechanic to use as a balancer for the potency of AoE weaponry, and has been so in many shooter games for many years.  But that does not always mean that having self-damage as an unmitigated 1:1 ratio to the player is the way to have it implemented.

There are a lot of other options they could use for self-damage.  What if, rather than instantly killing the user, self-damage would instantly shut off all of their active powers and impose a special proc (8 second duration) during which they could not activate any new powers?  Still punishing for the player who makes a mistake and blows themselves up.  But not a punishment that results in an instant self-kill.

If that alone weren't enough, it could have a secondary impact.  Wherein striking themselves with a second instance of self-damage while under the influence of that first proc would instantly remove their shield and put a forced but damageless Corrosive proc onto the player.  Corrosive procs remove armor from us during their duration just like they do to enemies.  So by blowing yourself up twice you very temporarily take away your own abilities, and remove a large portion of your EHP, but cannot kill yourself.

A third or further instance would then merely restart the duration of both of these negative status afflictions to the user.

[Rage_Inducer]

Risk vs Reward

There has to be a catch for doing the damage the Tonkor can do and blowing yourself up with it if you don't take care is a good catch.

If people quit the game after the Tonkor got nerfed then that means they were ising it as a crutch. Moving on, using all the weapons in the game is what warframe is about. Mastery is a very clear indication of that fact.

If you think the tonkor is only good for camping, as elitist as it may sound of me to say it, you just gotta get better at aiming your shots or just not use it alltogether.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, Rage_Inducer said:

Risk vs Reward

There has to be a catch for doing the damage the Tonkor can do and blowing yourself up with it if you don't take care is a good catch.

If people quit the game after the Tonkor got nerfed then that means they were ising it as a crutch. Moving on, using all the weapons in the game is what warframe is about. Mastery is a very clear indication of that fact.

If you think the tonkor is only good for camping, as elitist as it may sound of me to say it, you just gotta get better at aiming your shots or just not use it alltogether.

There's no risk/reward in a horde shooter game where the whole point of the game is to kill as many enemies as possible when there are literally hundreds of other weapons, abilities that do the same thing, with no penalty. 

Your notions are outdated, and it just makes weapon variety boring. I can either equip the tonkor cause i want to kill myself and everything around me, or I can go Saryn, Mirage, Excaliber, Frost, Nidus, or Nova and massacre everything by pressing 4 (Nidus case 1 & 2)

Or I could equip Zenistar, or Throw on punch through on my tigris and deal 50k hard damage to everything in a straight line for 50 meters or so that goes through doors. 

The tonkor is the only explosive weapon in the game that A: has no detonate feature and B: doesn't immediately explode where you point it, unless hitting an enemy. considering the gun fires in an arc, and has limited range, and can bounce wildly, which is in stark contrast to every other explosive weapon, its a terrible weapon to use. The tonkor acts like the sonicor if it killed you

9 hours ago, KazeUindo said:

All I see is:

Weapon not OP

Weapon no longer fun

 

The Tonkor still crits, just no longer constant red crits. Yes it's sad that it got nerfed, but now that it did I don't feel like I'm nerfing myself by using another launcher. I did not touch any other primary launcher solely because nothing else was nearly as good(and Mirage with shooting 6 grenades with one pull of the trigger; INSTANT room clear). Now I use Orgis and even though its not modded for crit, the raw damage it does is more than enough +the crowd control makes its sortie viable. 

If I wanted the tonkor to be op again, I would be asking for it to have the actual stats un nerfed, Instead what I'm asking for is a fix to an extremely bouncy grenade that has no indicator of it's blast radius, or where it will detonate to change from a suicide gun, to something actually fun to use.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

If I wanted the tonkor to be op again, I would be asking for it to have the actual stats un nerfed, Instead what I'm asking for is a fix to an extremely bouncy grenade that has no indicator of it's blast radius, or where it will detonate to change from a suicide gun, to something actually fun to use.

*Reads the title* "Remove Tonkor entirely or bring the old one"

That's not contradicting at all....

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

1-There's no risk/reward in a horde shooter game where the whole point of the game is to kill as many enemies as possible when there are literally hundreds of other weapons, abilities that do the same thing, with no penalty. 

2-Your notions are outdated, and it just makes weapon variety boring. I can either equip the tonkor cause i want to kill myself and everything around me, or I can go Saryn, Mirage, Excaliber, Frost, Nidus, or Nova and massacre everything by pressing 4 (Nidus case 1 & 2)

Or I could equip Zenistar, or Throw on punch through on my tigris and deal 50k hard damage to everything in a straight line for 50 meters or so that goes through doors. 

3-The tonkor is the only explosive weapon in the game that A-has no detonate feature and B-doesn't immediately explode where you point it, unless hitting an enemy. C-considering the gun fires in an arc, D-and has limited range, B-and can bounce wildly, which is in stark contrast to every other explosive weapon, its a terrible weapon to use. E-The tonkor acts like the sonicor if it killed you

1- Shotgun rework was made to benefit from the "Risk/reward" they deal crazy amount of damage the closest you are meaning that you'll have to get close and personal and shoot first if you don't want to die. So yes, risk and reward exist, we're just slightly too powerful and greedy to notice.

Problem with that is the fact that we have more-than-tanky warframes that won't take a single hitpoint of damage for a long time and with our current modding we can pretty much trivialize fighting until the scaling become unbearable. ( In which situation, we simply leave. Rinse and repeat and that's where we are now )

2- Weapon variety boring? You're the one who wants tonkor to be a third Penta with better stats...
So much for variety, if you want a launchers that detonate, use the Penta there is no need to change the mechanic of another weapon because you don't like it.
I, like many others, will keep using the Tonkor for its bouncy-ness and uniqueness because we enjoy the weapon the way it is.

Also, comparing warframe powers to a weapon is stupid ( Forgive the crude word ). Should I follow you example and say that all secondary weapons are outdated and unusable because Mesa can deal 50k per semi-seconds without the need to aim? I mean, I could aim with my pistol, but that's too mainstream since there's that one ability in the game that does it for me...

3- Congratulation, you've just described how varied the tonkor is when compared to other launchers.
Except that you just put a negative background to it because you don't like using it.

A: Not being able to detonate it makes it much more important to "Hit" the target with a direct impact, as you're unable to do.

B: Feature from the amazing bouncing grenades, it'd be damn useless if they exploded as they bounced around.
Zarr has that feature already and I dislike it. It looks good don't get me wrong, but I feel much better with my bouncy tonkor grenade, laying down traps with the grenade timer around corners as the enemy aren't in sight yet while I take down the one that I see with direct impact.

C: You mean, you need to aim, get used to the arc and make use of your brain to deal 300k damage with this weapon in an AoE? Sounds like an amazing Mastery 5 weapon to me.

D: I don't know what's wrong with limited range, you're not going to shoot at anything more than 75 meters anyway. Adding a detonate feature and preventing the grenades from exploding would make it even more awful at long range since you'd have to wait and keep sight of your grenades amidst the chaos that's around you.
You'll have to give me an argument for that one because I don't understand why that is here.

E: Fly yourself to the moon... Or stop shooting at your feet, one of the two will be more pleasant than the other.

-I put the letters in Bold in your quote, just for better understanding.

Edited May 22, 2017 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX
I messed up.

[Rage_Inducer]

I heavily disagree, melees have a buildup time and the tigris will kill things but only in a straight line. Nothing really does the immediate AoE burst damage the tonkor does. If I were to pick on anything it would literally be all the other explosives for only being able to kill the user and rarely ever anything else and as a matter of fact I did because all the other explosive weapons are either dissapointing or cost more than the Tonkor only to do less. Only other explosive that can come near to the damage the Tonkor does is the Zarr with a god tier riven and that just ain't right.

[Fallen_Echo]

How about we scrap out the entire bouncy grenade aspect and make the tonkor into this?

The m79 grenade laucher. You shoot at the target, it blows up at the target.

They even look similar the only difference is that this gun is actually usable while the tonkor feels like you are carriyng your own enemy.

[nameomnz]

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about we scrap out the entire bouncy grenade aspect and make the tonkor into this?

The m79 grenade laucher. You shoot at the target, it blows up at the target.

They even look similar the only difference is that this gun is actually usable while the tonkor feels like you are carriyng your own enemy.

looks like a cheaper zarr

[StinkyPygmy]

As much as it pains me to say this. Its really the only thing left to say:

http:// 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by StinkyPygmy

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, nameomnz said:

looks like a cheaper zarr

I just cheked it and even the wiki states the the design of the tonkor camenfrom the m79 grenade laucher. The only main difference is the rubber grenades.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Dude, learn to aim.

 

Also, secura penta and new improved ogris are just beastly.

 

Only reason u liked the tonkor was u didnt have to aim...cuz lets be honest here....u dont know what that is.

Edited May 22, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Mousarchy]

not gonna lie..taht was funny. idky it just looked so funny seeing you ragdoll away.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ordosan

[BUAHAHAHAHA]

On 22.05.2017 at 9:39 AM, Rage_Inducer said:

I heavily disagree, melees have a buildup time and the tigris will kill things but only in a straight line. Nothing really does the immediate AoE burst damage the tonkor does.

Were you living under a rock for the last year? Since Shadow Debt meele is completly broken, so much that tonkor doesnt even come close to it.

DE should have just lowered tonkor dmg to the level of zarr, ogris and penta and remove self dmg frome these weapons, propably with some more tweaks on stats. They just made a new launcher toy called zarr so they removed the only alternative to normal players - you cant play with tonkor or ogris in team cause they will just kill you by their sole presence.

Btw, DE removed self dmg from Zarr cluster bombs some time ago, i dont see any ppl complaining.

On 20.05.2017 at 8:29 AM, LuckyCharm said:

Feel free to just swap to playing nidus. Press one button all day while pointing in the enemys general direction, take no self damage and never die. Deal big damage after adding a couple mods and kill sortie level enemies with ease. Sound familliar? Should do.

You missed the "fun" part, like hitting ospreys from half map away etc.

 

[*] I have moved on, but tonkor will always have a spot in my arsenal [*]

[kleerr2]

On 19.05.2017 г. at 9:56 PM, Endorphinz said:

It's ludicrous how toxic this community is. Right off the bat, the first response to feedback is just a stupid picture mocking OP.

Whether or not you agree with them, they do have a voice. I know most people in here are childish players that like to mock the current meta while patting themselves on the back for having their own game-breaking superior (in their own eyes) way of playing.

I do see a fairly big problem with the gun: not being able to control the timing and detonations of grenades makes this weapon extremely hazardous to use. With other weapons like Penta and Ogris, which have a much better controlled detonation, there doesn't really seem to be any point in using Tonkor anymore. It's true, I actually have not seen a single use of it in any of my squads since the day it was changed. That relegates it to the pile of crap weapons that DE keeps pumping out that no one uses.

So, I can understand why a person would voice this opinion. However, unfortunate as it may be, the best option is to simply move onto a better weapon that suits your purposes.

I concur. There has been alot of bigotry, antagonism and blatant toxicity in the WF comunity for some time now... Hopefully those same people, don't have to face the day, when their favorite(fun) for them weapon/ type gets nerfed into oblivion and other people bash them for feeling bad about it...

I also have not seen any tonkor users after the nerf, but i dont run odd, so idk, but the stat + self-damage was not warranted in my opinion aswell. Honestly... even if all explosive weapons were made ''no self-damage'', i still believe that most people will continue to use mostly the tigris/ hek series, but that is just a speculation...

2 hours ago, BUAHAHAHAHA said:

Btw, DE removed self dmg from Zarr cluster bombs some time ago, i dont see any ppl complaining.

This particular line is a very interesting statement! Especially considering there have been several people coming into this thread claiming something amongst the lines of 'tonkor needs no aiming; you need to be punished for doing lots of damage(aka visk vs reward); aiming in the general direction of an enemy and killing it is an example of an unbalanced/ unfair weapon' etc...

And interestingly enough:

Tonkon needs to be aimed, if you can fire a tonkor nade in the ''general direction'' of an enemy and kill said enemy, then that is most likely because it is a mob of enemies, and while another weapon won't kill said enemy... there is a good change that it will kill some enemy, that happens to be in the ''general direction'' in the same conditions.

Actually you don't need to be punished for doing lots of damage... There are lots of weapons and abilities currently in the game, that are proof of that... And it is very interesting, as you said 'Nobody complained about zar cluster bombs doing no damage', because it is true, they would welcome(probalby... hopefully!) the removal of something that is very detrimental to their, well... lets say ''well being'' and i guarantee you, that the same people who write up things like ''Self-dmg is da best'', will perform harakiri/ seppuku, if say... the hit-scan class was detrimental in some major way(suicide maybe? oh wait...), or had some kind of self-damage mechanic, altho that wouldn't make much sense... The point is... You won't see those same people that glorify self-damage, proposing that very self-damage, to be implemented into another category... you just don't!

If aiming in the general direction of an enemy, when firing/using a weapon, or using an ability, to kill multiple enemies, regardless of the supposed main enemy you target, was unbalanced, or unfair... then we might aswell remove the shotgun and melee class as a whole as well as several abilities and punch trough mods to go along with it...

[Rage_Inducer]

5 hours ago, BUAHAHAHAHA said:

Were you living under a rock for the last year? Since Shadow Debt meele is completly broken, so much that tonkor doesnt even come close to it.

DE should have just lowered tonkor dmg to the level of zarr, ogris and penta and remove self dmg frome these weapons, propably with some more tweaks on stats. They just made a new launcher toy called zarr so they removed the only alternative to normal players - you cant play with tonkor or ogris in team cause they will just kill you by their sole presence.

I use a Blood Rush Maiming Strike Atterax, I know very well just how messed up melee damage is but I also know that the vast majority of players don't have Maiming Strike.

My argument still stands, not everyone can reliably do insane damage with melee unless they build up combo. If you want on command immediate AoE, that's where the Tonkor has you covered.

And it's also worth noting just how little the Tonkor costs compared to all the other launchers as well as the MR requirement.

 

The point I'm trying to get across here is that the Tonkor is dirt cheap both in materials and mods and can carry you through the whole starchart on the most basic builds. It's a pretty strong thing to have as early as MR 5 and balancing that out with the risk of killing yourself seems fair to me.

I have to ask though. How does adding a new weapon remove alrernatives? Zarr explodes on impact and it's fair to have the self damage from cluster bombs removed because you can't predict those. As for the Tonkor, I can see people struggling with the grenades but you can either use Adhesive Blast or get sufficiently used to the thing as to always score a direct hit. You don't have any control over the Zarr's cluster bombs and on that note, the Kulstar needs a similar treatment.

On another note, lay off the trash talk, it becomes increasingly more difficult to take any argument seriously when it's behind that sort of thing.

 

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

On 19.5.2017 at 4:19 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

 

LMAO. *Approaching orbit now*

 

Seriously though, DE's been hammering down weapons with unique mechanics all spring.

It seems they would really like some variation to the weapon roster but just can't get the balance right. (Tonkor, Simulor, T. Boltace)