Common sense not affecting (regular) Defense missions.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

So, we infiltrate the enemy ship/base to retreive a cryopod, but the enemy spot us and we must protect the said cryopod from them. In general, it's completely normal.

The problem?

After 5 waves, the Lotus tell us that she can extract us, wich means the cryopod too. If after 5 waves, the mission is a success, why would we stay and risk ourselfs and the objective of the mission? Why keep driving once you've reached your destination?

In Survival missions, we bait the enemies by figthing them so this way one of Lotus' agent can loot the place in peace. In Interception missions, we get rewarded for every message we intercept. And in Defense, we get rewarded by the Lotus for risking the objective that she told us to protect? It doesn't make sense to me. 

 

The way Defenses work is probably fine for most people, but, imho, it doesn't fit the purpose of the mission. A way to change it for the best, I think, would be to make it so the extraction team extract the objective (once secured after the 5 waves), then replacing the previous objective by a new one that will once again need to be secured, a bit like how Interceptions and Evacuation work.

It wouldn't affect the gameplay, but I'm sure that it would make more sense than risking the only objective of the mission over and over again rather than saving it once and for all by extracting it. Of course, it would require some work and probably some voice acting, but since the regular Defense (wich exclude VIP defense, since it's Sortie and I think Alert only, so not endless) basically never really changed, I think it deserves some polishing. 

[Fiftycentis]

i think that the easiest way to polish it imo is to not use a criopod (maybe use it only in non endless) with something like a console, which is hacking enemies datas, or something like that, that have sense defending for more waves
btw it's a bit like in rescues, where you can rush to the end, go away in you liset and in the meanwhile your rescue target is behind you with tons of enemies around shooting at him

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

So she can prepare the escort after you extract with it, 5 waves is minimum needed but give her more time she can prepare more.

[residente]

Honestly the cryopod thing should be completely changed for something else. Like a machine that's also extracting data or some material.

We've never known what those humans in the cryopods are, or why are they there, but since the Second Dream, we know they can't be Tenno. Just scrap the concept and make us protect an object capable of giving us something we want. The more waves we protect it, the more things it gives us.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

4 minutes ago, Fiftycentis said:

i think that the easiest way to polish it imo is to not use a criopod (maybe use it only in non endless) with something like a console, which is hacking enemies datas, or something like that, that have sense defending for more waves

We already have Mobile Defences, Spy and Interceptions more info-hacking. The concept of securing an objective for the extraction team is ok, but it just doesn't work as it should for now. 

9 minutes ago, Fiftycentis said:

btw it's a bit like in rescues, where you can rush to the end, go away in you liset and in the meanwhile your rescue target is behind you with tons of enemies around shooting at him

Sorry but I don't understand how a defense is "like in rescues".

[Praxxor]

I have two possible explanations for this:

1) Lotus sees the cryopod as a way to murder more Corpus, Grineer, Infested, whatever. The enemies are attracted by both the warframes and the operators/humans in the pods, which should attract more enemies than just warframes.

2) Lotus is able to extract you and deploy a different team every 5 waves.

Either way, you're right, it's really weird.

[Snib]

3 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Sorry but I don't understand how a defense is "like in rescues".

He means that it does not make sense just like in rescues. Many things in Warframe don't make sense. Another example is that you shoot and disintegrate capture targets to extract them, but no such thing happens with rescue and defense targets. And in the case of cryo pod defenses, why are those things there in the first place? The only defense type missions that make sense are actually sabotage missions where you need to defend the device while you sabotage it (toxin injectors).

Don't think too hard about it is my advice (but of course I support any change to make things more believable).

[Retequizzle]

They could just alter the dialogue options to reflect that, hey, your escort's ready but if you're willing to stay longer to further cripple the enemy forces, she'll delay the pickup.  From a logistics perspective, at least then you have an arguably justifiable reason to stay.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

6 minutes ago, Retequizzle said:

They could just alter the dialogue options to reflect that, hey, your escort's ready but if you're willing to stay longer to further cripple the enemy forces, she'll delay the pickup.  From a logistics perspective, at least then you have an arguably justifiable reason to stay.

Still, it would at least need to be clarified, since right now, we are having this discussion because something is not as it should be.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16

[SneakyBeakyIvarr]

I like to think that the Lotus is using the opportunity as an impromptu distraction similar to survival. Baiting the enemies while someone else steals all the enemies cookies (This helps explain where the defense rewards come from).

Obviously the whole thing is pretty much unplanned but while the Tenno are there they might as well get some goodies out of it.

Some clarification would be nice though. Provide some world building and a different reason to continue fighting.

Edited May 29, 2017 by SneakyBeakyIvarr

[Rakawan]

The explanation i was given was that she can indeed extract us, however doing so would divert resources away from other missions. So when we choose to stay it allows the Lotus to divert the dropship to extract another team, or another batch of resources. 

 

When we choose to stay we are telling the dropship pilot, or the extraction team or whoever "we can hold a bit longer, to get those other guys, then swing back for us."

[Siilk]

8 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

After 5 waves, the Lotus tell us that she can extract us, wich means the cryopod too. If after 5 waves, the mission is a success, why would we stay and risk ourselfs and the objective of the mission? Why keep driving once you've reached your destination?

As far as I understand it from the context, there are other tenno which require extraction so Lotus simply asks you if you're ok with giving up this extraction window for someone who requires it more.

Having said that, I think your idea is ok. Switching the location might give some variety to the mission. However, wouldn't that make this mission too much like mobile defence?

[DSpite]

I mean, it's a game. If you are going to analyze it THAT far, then why is the Pod in the void smack in the middle of nothing ... surrounded by laser consoles as well? It should have been "found" in some more logical place, like a cargo hold where it was moved or whatever.

EDIT: We should be slowly escorting one out and when done, we run back to get another one, hence extra staying time, for example.

Also, strange that Infested just come out of doorways, but only if we kill ALL the previous ones of the last wave. If the entire team just goes and sits on a high spot, and leaves a single weak unit whacking away at the pod, it could sit there for an hour, and yet, no more enemies comes.

You don't consider any of THAT strange, just the fact that we can extract after 5 waves? I find that even MORE weird.

On that basis, the entire missions should be scrapped and redone, because none of it makes sense.

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by DSpite

[Blade_Wolf_16]

2 hours ago, DSpite said:

EDIT: We should be slowly escorting one out and when done, we run back to get another one, hence extra staying time, for example.

That would be a lot too Evacuation/Hijack-like. 

2 hours ago, DSpite said:

Also, strange that Infested just come out of doorways, but only if we kill ALL the previous ones of the last wave. If the entire team just goes and sits on a high spot, and leaves a single weak unit whacking away at the pod, it could sit there for an hour, and yet, no more enemies comes.

You don't consider any of THAT strange, just the fact that we can extract after 5 waves? I find that even MORE weird.

I just felt like talking about the way it's presented, not the way it works. If you are so interrested about the behavior of those fleshbags, you could make another thread about why they attack this way in defense, or why do they hack consoles in Interceptions, etc. 

10 hours ago, Siilk said:

Having said that, I think your idea is ok. Switching the location might give some variety to the mission. However, wouldn't that make this mission too much like mobile defence?

I wasn't talking about changing locations (and even if I did, it would be like the Sea Lab Defenses, not MD), but changing the Cryopod. It would be like extracting 1 cryopod every 5 waves instead of just one for as long as you can. 

18 hours ago, Rakawan said:

The explanation i was given was that she can indeed extract us, however doing so would divert resources away from other missions. So when we choose to stay it allows the Lotus to divert the dropship to extract another team, or another batch of resources. 

 

When we choose to stay we are telling the dropship pilot, or the extraction team or whoever "we can hold a bit longer, to get those other guys, then swing back for us."

This would be a good explanation of why we stay and where is the loot coming from, indeed. I never heard of that, so if that's how DE sees Defense missions, it would simply need to be clarrified. Still, I think regular Defenses should be a bit more dynamic, but since it would require some work, a little bit of voice acting from our Space Mom could at least bandaid fix the logic behind the Defenses for some time while they work on it.

[Siilk]

On 31/5/2017 at 0:56 AM, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

I wasn't talking about changing locations (and even if I did, it would be like the Sea Lab Defenses, not MD), but changing the Cryopod. It would be like extracting 1 cryopod every 5 waves instead of just one for as long as you can

So only a cosmetic change then?

[Blade_Wolf_16]

10 hours ago, Siilk said:

So only a cosmetic change then?

In a way, yes. They don't have to rework something entirely just because some details aren't clear enough. 

[Siilk]

14 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

In a way, yes. They don't have to rework something entirely just because some details aren't clear enough. 

I wonder if a relevant gameplay change could introduced as well? For instance, each new cryopod could have different stats, say one could be more susceptible to a particular type of damage or maybe be fragile(low health/armour) but have a very high amount of shield points & regen. What do you think?

[Blade_Wolf_16]

8 hours ago, Siilk said:

I wonder if a relevant gameplay change could introduced as well? For instance, each new cryopod could have different stats, say one could be more susceptible to a particular type of damage or maybe be fragile(low health/armour) but have a very high amount of shield points & regen. What do you think?

I think it could be a nice feature to add and it would fit the changes, so yeah, I totaly agree. Having various complications during th mission would be a good way to spice things up (imo) and would force players to focus more on protecting the Cryopod than killing things alone in a corner of the map. 

[Hellmaker2004]

Survival, we get a reward by baiting out the forces so that a "spy" can loot and pillage safely.

 

Defense we get rewarded by a strike team being able to focus on another task instead of extracting the ViP we temporarily protected. The longer we choice to protect them the longer the strike team can use there resource on extracting stuff.

 

That is how i have always seen it.