How could DE possibly nerf Loki?

[Xion]

Disclaimer: I am not requesting DE to nerf Loki, nor do I condone any game developers releasing mass nerfs. This is just me wondering if it's possible to nerf Loki without actually making him trash tier.

A few days ago, me and a friend were talking about our memories in WF, specifically before the Second Dream era. One of the topics that came about was how Loki was "OP" and people constantly wanted him nerfed, but didn't have a reasonable way to do it, they just wanted him to get any nerfs.

So we started thinking, how could Loki actually get nerfed? Granted, the "nerf Loki" cries aren't quite as vocal now, probably because endless T4D isn't common anymore, and that's really where he shined, I think. The most common suggestions that we remembered hearing at the time was "nerf Invisibility duration" and "give Disarm a duration" or "make Disarm have a cap based on strength." We discussed how each of these suggestions either wouldn't work or might even be too damaging.

1: Nerf Invisibility duration: The main argument we had was that if his Invis got its duration nerfed, it would need to be lowered in energy costs. That would put it on the same lvl as Ash's Smokescreen without the knockback. In which case, there wouldn't be a point to use Loki over Ash if they're both using a duration build. We also felt that if the energy costs weren't compensated, it would hurt players that don't have E. Siphon too much.

2: Give Disarm a duration: I like this one, mostly since I don't see it really affecting me, personally. A lot of the stronger CC abilities (Bastille, Mo Prime, Avalanche, even Stasis) are balanced out by more than 1 stat. Disarm is only affected by Range. This brings me to the third choice:

3: Make Disarm have a cap based on Power Strength: I think this one is the weirdest of the three. Like I said, Disarm is one of the few CCabilities that are really only affected by 1 stat unless you use the augment, the others being Mag's Crush, Zephyr's Tornado (Kind of), and abilities that stun like Accelerant and Miasma. Depending on the base cap, probably 20, I don't think this would be too detrimental.

Personally, since I only like playing Disarm Loki (why FashionFrame if you're just going to look at weird squigglies, amirite?) I wouldn't want the 2nd or 3rd ideas to be done, but I'm pretty sure I can live with them. The Invisibility nerf, I honestly couldn't care, since DE just released Octavia who's just as good as Loki when it comes to being invis.

Of course, I don't think DE will ever nerf Loki. They'll get too much salt from the community, like what happened with the first Vacuum Within update.

I have noticed, though, that Loki isn't "meta" anymore. This seems like an effect of the Fissure system removing the desire for Lokis in endless Voids or the fact that new frames are being released that are more engaging than the "run around like a headless chicken because enemies can't hit you" playstyle that Loki offers. Maybe DE's plan is to change the meta so that "endless frames" like Loki, Nova, and Resonance Banshee become obsolete.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Xionyde134

[Miser_able]

Or they could make it Ivara, where taking damage when invisible causes something, like maybe it drains energy or reduces the duration. 

[HellDevil]

or they don't touch loki at all, he's fine and his powers! It's what he suppose to be, a trickster!

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Any change to the stealth Mechanic is a hidden nerf to loki

[(PSN)lhbuch]

The duration for invisibility wasnt already nerfed?  I thoughtit used to be around double of what is is today.

Edited June 5, 2017 by (PS4)lhbuch

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Let's not give them ideas ._.

[Xion]

Just now, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Any change to the stealth Mechanic is a hidden nerf to loki

This is true, but most of these nerfs are focused more on melee though.

[Silvus-Sol]

Loki isn't the problem, stealth is the problem. Nerfing Loki wouldn't accomplish much and isn't necessary.

[Chipputer]

Loki is just as meta as he always was. The difference is that Ivara and Octavia are even moreso than he is so he's simply been replaced in group comps.

[UvBenServed]

13 minutes ago, Xionyde134 said:

The Invisibility nerf, I honestly couldn't care, since DE just released Octavia who's just as good as Loki when it comes to being invis.

I'd actually argue that Octavia's invisibility is significantly better (albeit more awkward to use). It has a longer base duration, can be applied to an entire team, and can be refreshed indefinitely. It cost a bit more energy, but Octavia regains some energy over time whenever she uses an ability.

I don't think Loki should be nerfed, at least not directly. But if DE wants to nerf invisibility by introducing enemies that can see you while you're invisible or have enemies shoot in the general direction of invisible players whenever they hear gunfire, that might be interesting.

Instead of nerfing Loki, I would buff his first and third abilities, but have those buffs be based on power strength. This could add some variety to Loki builds, but for anyone who doesn't care about those abilities, nothing would be lost.

[DrakoKnight48]

Imma reply to all that by saying NO! He's already a squishy frame. Nerf the duration of his invisibly; he's gonna die VERY often. I know cause I'm using Loki right now! Combine that with the fact unless you have maxed out Primed Continuity and Narrow Minded, that duration isn't gonna last long, buddy. Matter of fact, a few seconds at best. 

You're basically cutting off his kit for what reason? Why? This mentality on the forums on nerfing Warframes that DON'T need a nerf is out of hand. Stop!

[Xion]

2 minutes ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

Imma reply to all that by saying NO! He's already a squishy frame. Nerf the duration of his invisibly; he's gonna die VERY often. I know cause I'm using Loki right now! Combine that with the fact unless you have maxed out Primed Continuity and Narrow Minded, that duration isn't gonna last long, buddy. Matter of fact, a few seconds at best. 

You're basically cutting off his kit for what reason? Why? This mentality on the forums on nerfing Warframes that DON'T need a nerf is out of hand. Stop!

And here I thought putting the disclaimer would help.

[DrakoKnight48]

On 6/4/2017 at 8:46 PM, Xionyde134 said:

And here I thought putting the disclaimer would help.

Then what's the point on suggesting to nerf him?? It's pretty pointless when you put that disclaimer out. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by DrakoKnight48
Reworded sentence.

[Aranaevens]

3 minutes ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

Disclaimer or not. Your suggestion to nerf Loki WOULD make him trash tier. 

That's why his point is "how can you nerf loki without him being trash tier", that's only a debate, not a suggestion.

OT I feel the damage bonus of stealth is far too huge imo, the downside of Loki should be his lack of real damage increase, yet Stealth gives him better damages than some frames.

[nameomnz]

In my opinion they should either buff loki or nerf octavia

[DrakoKnight48]

2 minutes ago, Aranaevens said:

That's why his point is "how can you nerf loki without him being trash tier", that's only a debate, not a suggestion.

OT I feel the damage bonus of stealth is far too huge imo, the downside of Loki should be his lack of real damage increase, yet Stealth gives him better damages than some frames.

Considering his current kit isn't centered based on pure damage, I say let loki keep his stealth damage. Say you're invisible. The stealth multiplier isn't gonna say up if you're using a alarming weapon or kill an enemy in front of another. And seeing how clustered they are, that's the problem on trying to sneak pasted them. 

[Ventura_Highway]

Loki would be in more trouble of the AI actually responded like you would to an invisible enemy, like if something invisible bumps into you, you'd swat it and if you heard someone loudly shooting two grakatas, you couldn't see them but you could probably shoot in the general direction of the sound.

 

Also if more levels were determined to kill you like the Kuva fortress, that would be another issue for loki.

[Eric1738]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

The duration for invisibility was already nerfed, it used to be around double of what is is today.

Not sure what you mean, but I have been playing since open beta and Loki is my starter Warframe. Invisibility duration was never that long.

[Kusungphak]

Well there was a nerf request thread in feedback section asking for invisibility nerf. So limbo has not really completely overwhelmed the forums. Personally I don't want anything to be changed as there is nothing broken. They removed the 512x gas damage anyway. He is a good frame specific for use in certain missions only.

I mean what will be the purpose of nerfing a regularly used frame. 

Is he OP ? No... Loki is normally the first one to go down if an aoe damage hits the area in a high level mission.

Can he nuke ? No... Except for irradiating disarm he can't do damage with his skills

Do his skills cause distress to team? No unless you have a griefer using switch teleport. 

He is my goto frame for capture and spy missions. For capture I usually end the mission with 0 kills.

[ShadowStalker]

How to nerf loki>you dont

[(PSN)lhbuch]

6 minutes ago, Eric1738 said:

Not sure what you mean, but I have been playing since open beta and Loki is my starter Warframe. Invisibility duration was never that long.

I maybe getting crazy. I was sure it happened like two years ago. Edited my post to a question and thanks for pointing that out.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

if anything loki needs buffs or new tweaks to kit ...

as is hes straight forward, but plenty of his kit is now on other frames 

[Aranaevens]

58 minutes ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

Considering his current kit isn't centered based on pure damage, I say let loki keep his stealth damage. Say you're invisible. The stealth multiplier isn't gonna say up if you're using a alarming weapon or kill an enemy in front of another. And seeing how clustered they are, that's the problem on trying to sneak pasted them. 

Aint working like that. I'm more talking about Melee weapons. All you are losing is the affinity bonus.

[InDueTime-EN-]

Loki was already nerfed BTW(well, stealth was). Back in my day the enemies wont shoot in your direction if you fired the loudest MF gun in the world. Now infested swarm at your feet and you got missiles flying in your general vicinity. 

1 hour ago, Aranaevens said:

Aint working like that. I'm more talking about Melee weapons. All you are losing is the affinity bonus.

I guess the stealth damage bonus for melee weapons is a bit much. Specially the fact that it affect procs which massively increases the damage of slash procs. And I believe that damage bonus isn't based on whether the enemy is alerted or not, rather its based on whether they can see you or not, which means even if they are alerted you still have the bonus damage unless they see you. 

[Space0ddity]

loki has free on demand invisibility with no downsides, compared to slowvara and shortash's seperate cloaks

 

here's my suggestion

sounds made are no longer silent, enemies can detect footsteps and weapons fire, but not track you based on them, just fire at the position they heard the sound.