Being the Stalker at Tennocon?

[-YoRHa-]

14 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Absolutely not. Not ever. Not even once. 

 

As has been proven, whenever people talk about PvP invasions, they never, ever talk about the honourable challenge, it is always, 100% of the time, a means of just griefing other players, of 'punishing n00bs'.

 

I would support the inclusion of such a mode if it included the potential to backfire catastrophically on the attacking player. For instance, if they invaded and lost to the defender, they forfeit their most played Warframe, and had their name published in the Relays as a failed Stalker assassin. Sounds about right.

 

 

Jesus, look at the way people are already talking about it. Hunting newbies? Specifically sabotaging Sortie 3 missions? Yeah, this kind of malignant cancer is definitely what Warframe needs.

Bit of an unfair and mass generalization toward the people for this, just because one guy is expressing that he would grief people. He is the only person before your post to suggest the idea of harming new players or specifically trying to ruin another's 3rd sortie(which is impossible because Stalker can't spawn in Sorties anymore, as of a certain hotfix that i can't find yet). Yeah, there are probably a lot of people that would only want to grief, but 'a lot' doesn't mean 'everyone'.

Then go on to openly state you would like for every participating attacker, seemingly regardless of whether or not they are a griefer, to be unreasonably punished(Warframes being forfeit/deleted) and crucified in the Relays for failing. How is that fair? A lot of people put a lot of time, effort, and sometimes money into their Warframes. All of that just for causing a single death or mission fail, in a game where failing is almost rare, is extremely excessive.

You seem like a rather reasonable and thoughtful guy in a lot of posts. I know you can come up with ideas that would stop people from being a jerk, keep the mode fun, while maintaining the purpose of it(which is to kill your mark).

Based on the footage, i think the following restrictions should be applied to Stalker in this mode:

- The attacker can't pick up or interact items relevant to the mission objective(Life Support capsules, Datamass, Spy Data Vault Consoles, and ETC).

- The attacker can't attack mission objectives that would result in an immediate mission failure if it is destroyed.

- The attacker can't trigger/start mission objectives.

- The attacker is undetectable by Spy cameras, so it can't set off the alarms and purging sequence.

- The attacker can only attack the chosen marked player, and cannot attack other players unless they attack it first.

- The attacker can only invade players following the same invading restrictions the AI Stalker has. The minimal MR for targets is raised higher for the attacker.

 

There might be some things i'm forgetting, but i think that is a good start for restrictions.

 

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

15 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Absolutely not. Not ever. Not even once. 

 

As has been proven, whenever people talk about PvP invasions, they never, ever talk about the honourable challenge, it is always, 100% of the time, a means of just griefing other players, of 'punishing n00bs'.

 

I would support the inclusion of such a mode if it included the potential to backfire catastrophically on the attacking player. For instance, if they invaded and lost to the defender, they forfeit their most played Warframe, and had their name published in the Relays as a failed Stalker assassin. Sounds about right.

 

 

Jesus, look at the way people are already talking about it. Hunting newbies? Specifically sabotaging Sortie 3 missions? Yeah, this kind of malignant cancer is definitely what Warframe needs.

You're over thinking it. Obviously, they'd prevent the Player-Stalker from doing anything to deliberately hinder the Tenno, aside from outright killing them. 

Trying to hunt newbies? Make the Stalker scale based on the target's level. Only allow the Stalker to attack Tenno who are, at most, 2 Mr ratings beneath and above player invading.

Trying to sabotage a Sabatoge/Survival mission? Make it so the Stalker is incapable of interacting with any consoles etc. Hard to pop a life-support, when the Devs totally negate your ability to do so.

Trying to alert enemies in Spy? Make the Stalker not register as an enemy, so as to prevent enemies from being alerted on sight. 

Trying to steal kills and delay Exterminate? Turn Stalker into a friendly to the other enemies, and render him incapable of damaging anyone who isn't a Tenno. Same thing applies to Spy/Capture/Rescue.

Lockdowns already occur upon Stalker's arrival, so at worst the player will only be able to cause chaos within a single room. For open parts of stages however, that wouldn't be the case.

DE has innumerable and simple methods to prevent Stalker Players from trolling other players. Your fears suggest that they'd just shoehorn the feature into the game without making virtually any effort to balance it for both the Assassin and the target.

Also, Stalker is a God Mode? Lol he literally got immediately demolished on a couple matches in that footage. Thats not to mention how easy he is to take down generally. There's absolutely nothhing Godly about Stalker. DE's not giving players a God Mode, if they introduce this feature, I'd like to think that they wouldn't just allow the Stalker-player to have the same level of freedom as the in-mission players.

[Domesticon]

11 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

"It's not punishing! Provided DE remove the ability of the Stalker to force mission failure to grief his targets, yeah, whoops."

True though. It isn't really punishing if they just remove that potential for him to make the mission fail, which honestly looks like a bug currently, or something that you'd work out in Beta Testing. This Tennocon test of it sure looks like a Beta Test to me.

[Flaezon]

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Well yeah, it looked like the regular stalker and not the shadow stalker, so not much of a danger to anyone but newbies, who will probably just get owned by a way more experienced player regardless. 

Perhaps you get to play as full shadow stalker if you go to the higher level planets, but can only be regular stalker on lower level, to keep it balanced between newbies versus veterans, etc? Newbies still get somewhat owned even against regular stalker but at least they had a chance. 

And if it was actually SS against veterans, they might actually take down the target at least some of the time. 

It can be fixed with a rank limitation, for example the Stalker won't hunt you until you reach rank 10 or something like after you finish the second dream or certain higher quest associated with the Stalker.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Venoct

[Loswaith]

Global Agenda had a similar mission option to this (one player was a counter operative).  However it was an optional PvP mode.  If that is how it would be implemented in Warframe then that is fine.

Given warframe is primarily a PvE co-op game (many supporting it financially because of that), implanting PvP directly into the normal game will annoy many players that came to the game for that very reason.

The core mechanical nature of the stalker (and other assassins) is to punish players that do what the game tells them to do; fight bosses to progress (get more frames).  Sure it can kind of be fun, but can be just as much annoying to individual players.

Sure overall it is not a bad concept but as part of the game proper it will have many flaws (some being):
- If based on marks it will focus more on newer players than veterans because they are the ones that need to fight bosses to get frames.
- Will change the overall concept of the game being Co-Op PvE.
- Stalker will be much easier to farm.  Even if a random target some players wont even try to kill their targets just letting player farm them.
- Some players will want it just to grief and complain the stalker is too weak if they cannot do so. (Sure some want an actual challenge against other players but conclave is already there for that)  
- A shotgun to the face as the stalker stands up (I'm sure we can remember that one) wont give much of a challenge for the either side anyway (DE can give AI a short immunity stage for standing up and it is seen as 'fair', give a player that immunity phase in PvP and it often seen as not being 'fair').

 

All in all as a Dedicated PvP option it can work, as part of the game proper it is a huge can of worms.

[Cifrer]

4 hours ago, Noabettiet said:

i am afraid that if such system would come ,you'd be a target as well. Nobody picks.

 

don't worry tho, i am well aware of how weird i am

Just give it an off switch in options or something.  I don't want to have to deal with it, there is no reason I should have to deal with it.

There is no good reason to force PvP onto people in a game which they play for PvE enjoyment.

If someone wants to have some PvP in their game, good for them, make it so, go right ahead.  Just don't make it in such a way that I have no choice but to participate.

[Chewarette]

The simple fact that all the people attending at Tennocon seemed to request him to target EARTH, and even more specifically E-PRIME, is enough reason for this to NEVER be implemented.

Honestly. A PVP-event with useless rewards if you want. But not a full time feature where wannabe-pr0s will spend their times hunting MR0 on E-Prime to increase the size of one of their body part.

[JCBeastie]

Looks like conclave... Problem with Warframe PvP is we're just too damn mobile. It's nice to go against an AI with a limited set of behaviours. Player controlled Stalker would just be leaping about all over the damn place, and that's ignoring all the potential griefing and trolling.

In short, that looks awful to me.

[Seraiya.Gier]

7 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Now, I am not being sarcastic, I really would like you to answer this sincerely: would it make Warframe a better game for the players if there were people whose objective in playing was to 'ruin someone's day'?

No, nor was I implying it would be a good thing. That's how I viewed invasions in the games listed, things meant to ruin your day if you didn't care for PVP. I'd imagine that if this system was implemented, there'd  either be a toggle for it or you just have to deal and play solo and hope the NPC version of Stalker comes by to remove your mark.

[Azur_Fenix]

I see a lot of people in here saying they don't want it because it will promote "griefing". Well I am going to say what those of use in Dark Souls say. An I say this as a red phantom invader. GIT GUD.

It works in Dark Souls and is embraced. Some of the best fun in Dark Souls is loading in to hunt someone down, even better if they have 1 or 2 sun bros with them so you can whack them ALL or to be a purple phantom and just kill white, red, blue, gold, and other purple phantoms. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN.

As to the stalker player targeting the objective? Just make it so they do low damage to it, but can still kill it if persistent and if the other players are not good or fast enough to take him out. Because lets be honest. If there is a Nova, you can forget trying to kill people the normal way. Kill objective and get around that block. 

I look forward to hunting you all. Prepare your graves. A stalker is coming

 

[-Specktra-]

This would make a nice mode if properly balanced as people suggested and making it as AI-ish possible,as it would be highly unfair for people that cant keep the pace for a high mobility player controlled stalker fight and then forbid the player controlled stalker from rolling/dodging and super jumping just basic single jump or no jump at all maybe,also make the player stalker not being able to interact with/damage anything including life support,defense objectives,alarms,enemies etc etc besides targeted player to prevent mission objective sabotage,only exception would be hacking panels while in lockdown that leads to the next room where targeted player is,as people could lock themselves up in a area to avoid fighting him

Edited July 10, 2017 by -Specktra-

[Noabettiet]

16 hours ago, Cifrer said:

Just give it an off switch in options or something.  I don't want to have to deal with it, there is no reason I should have to deal with it.

There is no good reason to force PvP onto people in a game which they play for PvE enjoyment.

If someone wants to have some PvP in their game, good for them, make it so, go right ahead.  Just don't make it in such a way that I have no choice but to participate.

the problem with that is, that the whole invasion system would die just there, if anyone could choose to just not participate it. Finding a match, would be matter of luck if not impossible. 
But yeah, i still agree with you, it doesn't fit warframe mission system. Enemy opposition is heavily favored, an player on their side, would mean an automatic win for that player.

[blackheartstar_pc]

I want this to be a thing so bad! I (I assume as have others) requested this feature over 2 years ago. Glad to see some progress.

[Brasten]

Absolutely not! This is not Dark Souls. If I want to play a BloodSouls game I'll go play that. If I want constant harassment and griefing from "PvPers" I'll go play EVE-Online.

This will end poorly, and you can already see it in the comments made at TennoCon and in this thread about what people want to do with such a mode. Not only that we have examples of games already on the market based around this concept of an asymmetric 4 vs 1, and they are aren't doing so great.

Friday the 13th, Dead by Daylight, Evolution. These games only become entertaining when played with friends, not with random strangers. Where people can "play" more instead of being hyper competitive. Once it gets competitive with strangers it competently falls apart. Same thing with BloodSouls and EVE "care-bear" ganking.

For Warfarme itself, it's been demonstrated time and again the Player vs Player does not produce satisfying results for the vast majority of the player base. The usage stats for Conclave show this. By adding a Stalker mode, you are subjecting the Majority to the tyranny of a Minority, who will be in the majority (as comments already show) just in it to grief.

If DE wants to dabble with an Asymmetric 4 vs 1 mode, that is completely separated from the Core Warframe PvE, fine whatever. Failing faster is part of iterative design anyways.

[HUNDarkTemplar]

On 2017. 07. 09. at 1:41 PM, BornWithTeeth said:

Absolutely not. Not ever. Not even once. 

 

As has been proven, whenever people talk about PvP invasions, they never, ever talk about the honourable challenge, it is always, 100% of the time, a means of just griefing other players, of 'punishing n00bs'.

 

I would support the inclusion of such a mode if it included the potential to backfire catastrophically on the attacking player. For instance, if they invaded and lost to the defender, they forfeit their most played Warframe, and had their name published in the Relays as a failed Stalker assassin. Sounds about right.

 

 

Jesus, look at the way people are already talking about it. Hunting newbies? Specifically sabotaging Sortie 3 missions? Yeah, this kind of malignant cancer is definitely what Warframe needs.

You are not right. You see, sometimes Id actually help the people. I mean, If this gets implemented, Its not as fun anymore, but imagine, If you could be the Stalker now, without anyone knowing and helping them tru the mission, They would be like what the fck. It could be fun. 

[BornWithTeeth]

21 hours ago, Azur_Fenix said:

I see a lot of whiners in here saying they don't want it because it will hurt their fee fees and will promote "griefing". Well I am going to say what those of use in Dark Souls say. An I say this as a red phantom invader. GIT GUD.

It works in Dark Souls and is embraced. Some of the best fun in Dark Souls is loading in to hunt someone down, even better if they have 1 or 2 sun bros with them so you can whack them ALL or to be a purple phantom and just kill white, red, blue, gold, and other purple phantoms. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN.

As to the stalker player targeting the objective? Just make it so they do low damage to it, but can still kill it if persistent and if the other players are not good or fast enough to take him out. Because lets be honest. If there is a Nova, you can forget trying to kill people the normal way. Kill objective and get around that @#&$ block. 

I look forward to hunting you all. Prepare your graves. A stalker is coming

 

You see this, DE? Is this what you want Warframe to become?

 

Also, @-YoRHa- observe. You cannot remove the toxicity from the idea, because the toxicity is the idea. If you remove the griefing from the mode, the people who wanted it won't want it anymore.

Edited July 11, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Horaciozhao]

47 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You see this, DE? Is this what you want Warframe to become?

 

Also, @-YoRHa- observe. You cannot remove the toxicity from the idea, because the toxicity is the idea. If you remove the griefing from the mode, the people who wanted it won't want it anymore.

completely agree. Dark souls is not a good comparison, because dark souls is a hardcore game, whoever decided to actually go through with it is already a hardcore player. When I played Dark Souls, I expected that level of difficulty, but warframe is not, never was thus their player base is not a hardcore themel

[blackheartstar_pc]

On 7/9/2017 at 8:00 PM, -YoRHa- said:

Based on the footage, i think the following restrictions should be applied to Stalker in this mode:

- The attacker can't pick up or interact items relevant to the mission objective(Life Support capsules, Datamass, Spy Data Vault Consoles, and ETC).

- The attacker can't attack mission objectives that would result in an immediate mission failure if it is destroyed.

- The attacker can't trigger/start mission objectives.

- The attacker is undetectable by Spy cameras, so it can't set off the alarms and purging sequence.

- The attacker can only attack the chosen marked player, and cannot attack other players unless they attack it first.

- The attacker can only invade players following the same invading restrictions the AI Stalker has. The minimal MR for targets is raised higher for the attacker.

 

There might be some things i'm forgetting, but i think that is a good start for restrictions.

 

Sounds like a good fair start.

[BornWithTeeth]

Yeah, about Dark Souls...

 

- Getting invaded is optional. You can run without Ember/Humanity or play offline with no problem or penalty. This, if you're playing online and Embered up, you're expecting a potential fight. What people seem to be advocating for here would not merely be equivalent to Dark Souls, it would be more hostile.

- In Dark Souls, if you get invaded while using rubbish gear, you can switch to a good PvP weapon in seconds. In warframe, you cannot change weapons in a mission. 

- In addition to the lack of ability to switch weapons, Warframe's weapon stats vary wildly compared to Dark Souls gear. In Dark Souls, skill matters more. In Warframe, if you're caught with weak weapons, the invader will have a massive advantage.

 

Insisting that it will 'be like Dark Souls' is at best disingenuous.

[EmptyDevil]

31 minutes ago, Horaciozhao said:

completely agree. Dark souls is not a good comparison, because dark souls is a hardcore game, whoever decided to actually go through with it is already a hardcore player. When I played Dark Souls, I expected that level of difficulty, but warframe is not, never was thus their player base is not a hardcore themel

Warframe's difficulty being a challenge to obtain is thanks to a vocal faction in the community and their adamant resistance toward balance+challenge. If content happens to be introduced that forces someone to not rely on their crutches/metas by rendering them useless, people will lose their minds. Universe forbid introducing the possibility of mission failure for anyone but uneducated new players. This whole inferiority/superiority complex that festers within the community on both the PVE and PVP side is nauseating.

[Metal_Izanagi]

23 hours ago, Azur_Fenix said:

I see a lot of whiners in here saying they don't want it because it will hurt their fee fees and will promote "griefing". Well I am going to say what those of use in Dark Souls say. An I say this as a red phantom invader. GIT GUD.

It works in Dark Souls and is embraced. Some of the best fun in Dark Souls is loading in to hunt someone down, even better if they have 1 or 2 sun bros with them so you can whack them ALL or to be a purple phantom and just kill white, red, blue, gold, and other purple phantoms. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN.

As to the stalker player targeting the objective? Just make it so they do low damage to it, but can still kill it if persistent and if the other players are not good or fast enough to take him out. Because lets be honest. If there is a Nova, you can forget trying to kill people the normal way. Kill objective and get around that @#&$ block. 

I look forward to hunting you all. Prepare your graves. A stalker is coming

 

This dude and people like him are exactly why this little pet project of a playable stalker needs to be halted immediately, and the idea swept under the rug forever. All it does is bring toxic little boys who want to wave their Clems around at people and pretend that they're worth something because their parents don't love them.

[Eviscerador]

This can be good if they handle it with care.

I mean, imagine after 5 or so stalker kills you got the opportunity to get a "stalker sortie"

You are given a stalker with the powers and weapons according to your target level. That means no Sentient stalker against newbies. Or fully modded Dread against a guy unlocking Venus.

Then you are given like 2 mins to kill your target, and you fail your mission if you wander more than 50 m from the targeted player.

And of course you can't interact with mission objectives like killing mobs, accessing spy vaults, using survival pods etc... You can only damage other tenno.

I for sure would play that mode just for a little change. And on the other hand facing the stalker won't be such a chore as it is now.

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Warframe's difficulty being a challenge to obtain is thanks to a vocal faction in the community and their adamant resistance toward balance+challenge. If content happens to be introduced that forces someone to not rely on their crutches/metas by rendering them useless, people will lose their minds. Universe forbid introducing the possibility of mission failure for anyone but uneducated new players. This whole inferiority/superiority complex that festers within the community on both the PVE and PVP side is nauseating.

The Core gameplay does lack challenge, and that's a problem.

 

However, allowing invasions will do absolutely nothing whatsoever to fix that, and will merely introduce the new problem of newbie players getting harassed through PvP invasions from toxic veterans.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

This would be horrible. Everyone would just troll players and make them fail the mission. Not only that, but having the Stalker player-controlled ruins his identity for me. 

[HUNDarkTemplar]

23 hours ago, JCBeastie said:

Looks like conclave... Problem with Warframe PvP is we're just too damn mobile. It's nice to go against an AI with a limited set of behaviours. Player controlled Stalker would just be leaping about all over the damn place, and that's ignoring all the potential griefing and trolling.

In short, that looks awful to me.

Well, It does look awful, If You cant hit a player. Conclave is full of some veteran pros, They kill you with sniper/bows, while you are jumping around and They are jumping around too in the same time.