Archwing is one step away from being the best open-world movement feature to date

[RunningTree3]

6 hours ago, cookieknife said:

hopefully if you fly too high there will be a feature like. with winds that blows you out of control and damages you

Yes! And apply this all through 'open-air' maps instead of de-spawning us. #FreeZephyr

Guns of Icarus Online has a similar feature in their maps. When at the boundares, strong winds blow you back inwards.

Much better, imo, than the current AW with forced extraction and literal energy-walls.

[cookieknife]

a really cool thing to see with zephyr once shes reworked is give her an actual flying ability... and it will be SO COOL on the open world!!

36 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

 #FreeZephyr

 

 

[DeyjaVou]

9 hours ago, Brasten said:

You can self-bind Gear use to buttons. I have Num-pad 1, 2, 3 bound to Gears 6, 7, 8 respectively and I use them for quick drop Team/Squad plates.

What I see as the biggest issue is Archwing as a whole. It's not very well balanced with the base Warframe experience, which is part of why many people don't like it. You can get a taste of this in Shark-Wing mode. Where the Amesha and Elytron powers can reach outside the water zones for quite some range. Additionally Archwing passive energy recharge (I know we have a lot of ways to do that on our Warframes), could become a crutch. Drop into Archwing, charge up a bit, and then overpower enemies with the Amesha bubble of super safety. Or the Itzal Crush Spam. Again you can see this play out with Shark-Wing on Uranus. 

I do like the idea of Archwing.... if it develops more in the "Zone of Enders" Beat-um-up style. But it's not a complete mode by a long shot. I'm still waiting for separate keybindings while in Archwing so I can bind Up/Down to Q/E and not having it conflict with Q (Gear wheel) and E quick (Melee). I find Up (Jump/Space Bar) and Down (Sprint, Shift) to be very awkward and not very responsive.  Archwing REALLY needs to act like a Battlefield Vehicle mode, which has completely different keybinds from the Infantry mode.

=====

I'm okay with a Gear based Call Down, you have to move to get into. We use Gear for all kinds of Odd things.

As to catching it in mid-air. How about a cinematic alternative. This will take some extra programming and design work, but should have the feeling of cool. Add a Trajectory line that the Archwing will come down on. If they player Bullet Jumps through that line, apply the Archwing in a "snag" animation in mid air. This is the "For Style" and maybe the "do it fast".

Here are the befits I see to a Trajectory Intercept.

1. "Rule of Cool" it will look and likely feel good to catch your Archwing in mid-air.
2. Add a delay to Archwing arrival. Making it something the player has to think about calling in advance. And not as reactive deploy.
3. Enemies can shoot down the Archwing. Either destroy before touchdown or apply pre-equip damage. This is to make it a gamble to bring the Archwing in too close during a big fire fight. This would be an extra UX layer to show where Enemy factions have Anti-Air emplacements, and their effective zones to possibly destroy/damage an incoming Archwing.
4. A possible "oh no" moment if the player gets CCed and knocked down, pulled, or otherwise is unable to make the mid-air catch in time. At which point they have to scramble to the impact point.

My assumption, in regards to Archwing's balance being incompatible with on-foot Warframe's balance, is that they're not even going to try to mesh the two. We've already seen that we'll be using regular weapons during Archwing's use in the Plains, not ArchWeapons. My almost baseless assumption from this is that we won't have access to Archwing abilities, or Archwing energy regen. This is most likely the best way they can implement it: strictly as a vehicle, and hopefully as fluid as possible.

Edit: I'm a loon, Reb used Odonata's rocket barrage during the demo. Abilities are definitely in (for now), which presents a problem for things like Itzal's blink and cloak. S#&$.

 

I like a lot of different ideas on how to interact with the Archwing as it's deployed, and yours is no exception. I'm already picturing it in my head, to be honest. It's probably one of the better ones, but I'm still hesitant to laud it as the best because of the number of steps and tension involved. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it is actually the best. It might even be the most organic way to balance it being deployed in combat areas. I can't know for sure, because we don't have it to play with. But, I'm mostly on-board with you here.

Edited July 10, 2017 by DeyjaVou

[Ricardo58]

You can keep your Archwing, I love my Razorwing with Titania! 

[KingTaltia]

I'll be honest, I'm just replying for publicity, so that this gets more talk. I love all your ideas, especially "make calling an archwing apply directly to your warframe" make archwing a movement system, not just a machine. And above all, get rid of the consumable, I HATE CONSUMABLES, I hate the fact that barring trinity, my options for energy on other frames is "bring a single use pizza" I understand why it exists, but it's slow, requires you to stand still, and therefore (because of how warframe is coded where standing still means enemies get increased accuracy) you die, or take enough damage that you die shortly after.

[(XBOX)eibonMadness]

18 hours ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

[i have also been a fan of the sentinel docks in AW like R2D2 in an Xwing, but thats another matter] 

Yes please. Not only would this be cool, it woukd explain were our sentinals go when we switch to archwing... 

Not sure how kubrow/kavats could be handled.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

If Warframe was an MMO I would disagree, because nothing kills an multiplayer open world more than fast travel.

[TennoPain]

i hate archwing but i did like it in new expansion perhaps if they make it a little bit cluncky also im wondering how high can you go with it and can u kill stuff in the sky with it.

[DrBorris]

10 hours ago, DeyjaVou said:

Edit: I'm a loon, Reb used Odonata's rocket barrage during the demo. Abilities are definitely in (for now), which presents a problem for things like Itzal's blink and cloak. S#&$.

There is no way we are going to be able to use Archwing abilities in the final build, just think...

• Odonata's Fire Shield
• Odonata's Repel
• Elytron's Thumper
• Elytron's Warhead
• Itzal's Cosmic Crush
• Amesha's Watchful Swam
• Amesha's Benelevont Decoy
• Amesha's Warding Grace
• Amesha's Vengeful Rush (Amesha OP)

It looked cool in the demo, but either the majority of Archwing abilities need to be completely reworked or they just need to be turned off. 

 

And I really don't understand how anyone can complain about Archwing as a whole in this. The gameplay of Archwing on the PoE will be completely different from what we have now, almost every complaint you could have about Archiwng is void. It is apples and oranges. 

[Brasten]

9 hours ago, DeyjaVou said:

It's probably one of the better ones, but I'm still hesitant to laud it as the best because of the number of steps and tension involved. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it is actually the best. It might even be the most organic way to balance it being deployed in combat areas. I can't know for sure, because we don't have it to play with. But, I'm mostly on-board with you here.

The main driver behind that idea intercepting a "deployment line" was me trying to think of a way to handle multiple levels of play. I think what we can all agree on is that picking up the Arcwing from the ground feels "slow". It breaks the movement flow of the game, that is very much its signature and separates Warframe from just about everything else. 

Warframe has a foundation of this multiple levels, even if most of weren't intended. Take the evolution of the Parkour/Movement system. Our first iteration was Jog/Walk -> Run, with some jumping. We then added sliding momentum retention to rebuild Stamina after running (Slide Cycling). Then came wall running and the discovery of momentum boosting from jumping out of the wall run. We then adding sliding Which then led to the discovery of momentum boosting off mid-air slide attacks (helicoptering). This created a progression of "skill" in movement.

Jog -> Run -> Slide Cycling -> Wall-Boost -> Helicoptering. You could being with just basic Jog/Run. Learn how to Slide Cycle. And the progress onward to Wall Boosting, and Helicoptering. However there was nothing really wrong with capping out at Slide Cycling, or even just sticking basic Jog/Run. Well if you didn't mind watching PUGs go flying off into the distance.

With Parkour 2.0 we got a refinement of that progression that was less fiddly. Now players being with Jog/Run. Maybe see and experiment with minor Slide Boosting (tapping crouch for a quick slide). Then they learn Bullet Jumping. And eventually you arrive at a "skillful" use of the whole movement range. To a point where you can start to integrate even more options into it. Personally I've used Hydroid's Tidal Surge wave, combined with Aim Glide (to stay in the air while in wave form) to get some crazy air distance.

Simply "deploying" into an Archwing at the touch of a button doesn't offer that same progression of skill. Even if you get a cool animation mid-air. IMO creating some kind of mid-air catch system offers a path for that "skill" growth. At a basic level you can just call the Archwing to a point, slamming it into the ground, and walking over to pick it up. From there you get more complex with chaining Parkour 2.0 into the catch and hopefully (if designed and programmed) into the movement combo in an additive way. The big hope would be momentum retention from the Parkour 2.0 into Archwing flight.

[Viellyn]

9 minutes ago, Brasten said:

The main driver behind that idea intercepting a "deployment line" was me trying to think of a way to handle multiple levels of play. I think what we can all agree on is that picking up the Arcwing from the ground feels "slow". It breaks the movement flow of the game, that is very much its signature and separates Warframe from just about everything else. 

Warframe has a foundation of this multiple levels, even if most of weren't intended. Take the evolution of the Parkour/Movement system. Our first iteration was Jog/Walk -> Run, with some jumping. We then added sliding momentum retention to rebuild Stamina after running (Slide Cycling). Then came wall running and the discovery of momentum boosting from jumping out of the wall run. We then adding sliding Which then led to the discovery of momentum boosting off mid-air slide attacks (helicoptering). This created a progression of "skill" in movement.

Jog -> Run -> Slide Cycling -> Wall-Boost -> Helicoptering. You could being with just basic Jog/Run. Learn how to Slide Cycle. And the progress onward to Wall Boosting, and Helicoptering. However there was nothing really wrong with capping out at Slide Cycling, or even just sticking basic Jog/Run. Well if you didn't mind watching PUGs go flying off into the distance.

With Parkour 2.0 we got a refinement of that progression that was less fiddly. Now players being with Jog/Run. Maybe see and experiment with minor Slide Boosting (tapping crouch for a quick slide). Then they learn Bullet Jumping. And eventually you arrive at a "skillful" use of the whole movement range. To a point where you can start to integrate even more options into it. Personally I've used Hydroid's Tidal Surge wave, combined with Aim Glide (to stay in the air while in wave form) to get some crazy air distance.

Simply "deploying" into an Archwing at the touch of a button doesn't offer that same progression of skill. Even if you get a cool animation mid-air. IMO creating some kind of mid-air catch system offers a path for that "skill" growth. At a basic level you can just call the Archwing to a point, slamming it into the ground, and walking over to pick it up. From there you get more complex with chaining Parkour 2.0 into the catch and hopefully (if designed and programmed) into the movement combo in an additive way. The big hope would be momentum retention from the Parkour 2.0 into Archwing flight.

I just can't agree anymore! Holy god man, you're amazing!

[Brasten]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

And I really don't understand how anyone can complain about Archwing as a whole in this. The gameplay of Archwing on the PoE will be completely different from what we have now, almost every complaint you could have about Archiwng is void. It is apples and oranges. 

It's not quite Apples and Oranges. More like Apples and Quince. Many of the flaws in Archwing could still carry over to PoE. One of the biggest issues with Archwing that could show its face in the PoE foot game (even without archwing) is the Affinity Share range. One of Archwing most aggravating issues on some maps is that because of the relative scale (making Archwing zones very "big"), it is very easy for players to drift out of Affinity Share range, even while fighting in the same "combat zone".

The other issue the PoE may suffer that is also an issue with Archwing is enemy Diversity and Density. Archwing very much suffers from a lack of enemy types, it's mostly all some variation of "guys with jet packs" or other objects about that size.  They also all have fairly rudimentary combat behaviors. While PoE will draw from the pool of Ground enemies (more diverse) and likely Archwing, it may still suffer the Density problem. Warframe currently isn't geared to support masses of enemy, and even in the tightest spawning arrangements you can notice lags in the spawn waves. This really shows up in Archwing, and its relativity big space. Where enemy waves take a long time to reenter the fight. I worry that PoE, with the same/larger scope may have that same issue.

The biggest clusters of AI I've found are in the Kuva Fortress, if you bypass most of the enemies without killing them. Which forces the game to "move" them ahead of you in a big clump. But once you clear that clump, they get spread out again and it can feel quite desolate. And of course this goes back to the problem that most individual enemies aren't a threat even at high levels. A single Level 2000 Elite Lancer is only annoying (in that it could possibly one shot with hit-scan), not a challenge.

In Warframe you don't get moments that Shadow of Mordor can have. Where you start a brawl, and it continually escalates in scope while still being "fair" to the basic aspects of play. Warframe gets unfair real fast with the way enemy scaling works. This is a bit of a digression, but Shadows of Mordor does something Warframe could REALLY learn from, and not just the Nemesis system. SoM fights are built around the Orc Captain(s), their personal guards, and the masses of fodder. The Captains are challenges in various ways, almost puzzles with their weaknesses, resistances, and immunities. Their body guards are lesser challenges, adding to the complexity of dealing with Captains because they stick close and try to support him. Then there is the mass fodder who just die at mean look from Talion, but if allowed to stack up, because a threat by volume and movement blocking. This is something Warframe currently does poorly in general. The fodder scales in damage and health, making them not fodder. While at the same time escalating with "Captain" mini-boss like enemies (Bursa, Maniac, Grustrag 3, Zanuka Hunter, Ven'kra Tel & Sprag, etc). While you're dueling and dealing with "boss" mechanics you're also having to deal with the "one shot" possibilities from the fodder. Eximus was a try at it, but too many of them spawn, and at the same level as the rest of the fodder, which just makes them more Fodder. Also Eximus don't act bossy, and just rush us like the rest of the fodder.

Now we're starting to get that Captain/Guard/Fodder setup a bit with Ambulas drop ships, but we defiantly need more. Good use of that Captain/Guard/Fodder dynamic would really help PoE not feel like a barren hill-scape.

[CY13ERPUNK]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)eibonMadness said:

Yes please. Not only would this be cool, it woukd explain were our sentinals go when we switch to archwing... 

Not sure how kubrow/kavats could be handled.

really kubrows/kavats/uggos have no place in space/aerial combat so i dont think they have a place there

originally my idea was to have the sentinel 'dock' into the AW and thus provide all of the things that sentinels do while in AW mode, ie radar/shield regen/vacuum/passive-precepts/etc 

but really i kind of think that if AW was given the overhaul that i would design for it, then really there is no place for companions, becuz now ive just blended the idea and have the AW itself function as a sentinel-lite with 1-2 passive precepts already {innate enemy/item radar, 30m vacuum, etc}