I hate Relics/Void Traces

[Silvus-Sol]

17 hours ago, (PS4)remo_yesman said:

I wish you could just farm Radiant relics.. I wish just like T3/T4 keys, you could farm Radiant relics, on like Neptune/Uranus/Pluto spy/sab/sur/excatavion... Void traces are just stupid, an It makes me hate the relics, an relic system, since relics have to be used in conjunction with void traces.. People hated the old system, but I never had a problem, always had what I needed in a day or 2, started crafting, them farmed dups.. Idk man, I dnt mean to whine, but when I play any game I just wanna play, not have to recruit ppl, its a good way to kill all the momentum in the game...

You're confusing key/relic tier for relic enhancement.

Lith = T1

Meso = T2

Neo = T3

Axi = T4

So when you talk about farming T3/T4 keys, you already do that wherever you farm Neo/Axi relics.

Enhancing the relic with Void Traces provides a bonus by rebalancing the drop chances in favor of rarer stuff. T3/T4 keys never had a better chance of rewarding rares than T1/T2 keys did. So the guy with the basic O1, well he had the equivalent an old void key ready to go. But you wanted him to have a Radiant O1, a relic with better chances than normal, which is something we never had with the old Void.

So the solution for your desire to "just wanna play" like the old Void is simple. Just play with normal relics, and never use or require someone else to use enhanced Relics.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Silvus-Sol

[babywrath]

I agree with OP on this one. I used to play void all day long but now, it feels like doing fissures is a waste of time for me. Its really a combination of having to farm for multiple relics, then unlocking them with reactants instead of farming or killing, then waiting for the rewards to drop, then hoping people decide to run longer than 2 rotations at a time. It was so much easier when one key from one person can ensure that the group will stay for at least 4 rotations.

Granted farming for specific primes is much easier now but I just miss playing pub for 40-60 mins per mission without caring about reactants or people leaving or knowing full well that the chances for a rare to drop is intentionally lower. There is also something very discouraging in pubs for me when nobody brings a radiant relic and for sure you know that the drops will be useless. With keys, I never even thought about the rewards, then suddenly boom rare parts, yey. I understand that the statistics have not changed much but knowing full well you are going in with a lower probability of a rare is kinda disheartening for me.  

Please know that these are just the personal opinion of one tenno. 

[StinkyPygmy]

8 hours ago, (PS4)CaseFace8 said:

Endurance runs back then meant 1 key for 4 people. Depending on how long you stayed you could get a lot of rewards.

For instance then 40 minutes in survival = 1 key = 8 rewards per person (32 total drops)

Now 40 minutes in survival = 32 relics = 8 rewards per person (32 total drops)

Double that to 80 minute runs = 1 key vs 64 relics

You got a lot more bang for your buck on endurance runs back in the day.

You had the potential to get more rewards in a long time frame but keys were also much harder to grind, you couldn't grind most keys while grinding primes, you couldn't manipulate the odds, and were forced into rotation locked rewards (meaning less chances for what you wanted in a short time frame).

Now, relics are abundant, and you can passively grind for everything you need while grinding for parts. At most it merely means that longer runs have more relic outlay required, but if you are someone that loves endurance runs that much, there is nothing stopping you from doing them and rewards wouldn't be the focus. In this system, you are always rewarded even if you don't use a relic.

Yes, we've traded some pros and cons for different ones, that's true. But from my perspective I've had more fun and luck with the current system and nothing has stopped me from doing endurance runs every so often.Its really not very different from the old system in that regard.

[Penguinbuddy91]

Has anyone ever had 4 forma drops straight in a mission every wave you played a T4 Endless? I have and that was when keys scarred me forever.

And we'll one of the things I like to do with my friends is when we need a specific part, one of us has a relic radiated first then take turns each. Sure we use 4 keys each for that part but like we also have the other relics that we open that we get as well. There's always a chance to choose something that isn't forma so for that I'm grateful. 

They did add more grinding which sucks and they should have the reactants vacuumable imo but maybe we'll see a change in that too?

[Hypernaut1]

I did NOT enjoy being "forced" to play survival to 20 minutes, several times a day, every day for a month to get a rare part I needed.

That was ludicrous.

New system is leaps and bounds better. The simple fact that your clan don't play endless as much anymore tells you that they did not enjoy it and only did it because they had to.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Arrectius]

Idk about the rest, talking about my own experience, i have played old sytem and new system enough to say that nowdays i take like one week at most to get all the new prime stuff that comes out every 3 months. Before i had nova, ash and volt waiting on foundry together for the part that were stucked together on the t3survival rotation. I got them eventually ironically ash after the change to relics...

So imo, farming some traces and relics everyday while getting my daily reputation and running some radiants from time to time, works for me way better than running some endless on the void while getting my reputation. I rarely stay more after getting my daily reputation.

The only way the new system is worse than the old, is if you are a lone player refusing to make a group of 4 for a radiant run.

For the ducat part im inclined to think now is better now as well, tho i cant really grasp this since i dont buy new things every week now as to when baro was introduced. I remember t4 interception/t3 sabotage were the best mission to farm ducats.

The market prices of primes before the rivens is an indicative of this, a new prime being around 600p on release (if not more sometimes) was crazy, nowdays paying more 300p on release is a scam already, so how is it that being harder now the prices dropped? thats really weird right?, what i did here is trying to back the stats saying is easier to get stuff now with the market, since at the end the real stats can only be accessed by DE.

Also i still do my endless from time to time, but the good part is now i decide against which faction i do it.

[Urlan]

13 hours ago, Arrectius said:

Idk about the rest, talking about my own experience, i have played old sytem and new system enough to say that nowdays i take like one week at most to get all the new prime stuff that comes out every 3 months. Before i had nova, ash and volt waiting on foundry together for the part that were stucked together on the t3survival rotation. I got them eventually ironically ash after the change to relics...

So imo, farming some traces and relics everyday while getting my daily reputation and running some radiants from time to time, works for me way better than running some endless on the void while getting my reputation. I rarely stay more after getting my daily reputation.

The only way the new system is worse than the old, is if you are a lone player refusing to make a group of 4 for a radiant run.

For the ducat part im inclined to think now is better now as well, tho i cant really grasp this since i dont buy new things every week now as to when baro was introduced. I remember t4 interception/t3 sabotage were the best mission to farm ducats.

The market prices of primes before the rivens is an indicative of this, a new prime being around 600p on release (if not more sometimes) was crazy, nowdays paying more 300p on release is a scam already, so how is it that being harder now the prices dropped? thats really weird right?, what i did here is trying to back the stats saying is easier to get stuff now with the market, since at the end the real stats can only be accessed by DE.

Also i still do my endless from time to time, but the good part is now i decide against which faction i do it.

In the old void keys, you would get a t4 endless key on any high level interception and near the end, rotation C of high level survivals, as each of these keys could give your entire team rewards - multiple rewards each key, this meant less grinding unrewarding normal endless missions if you disliked those. The situation of how you get relics has not overall changed. The element of thinking relics are more common as drops is balanced by both needing more per return and having sub-varieties to hunt within each tier that can not be easily remedied by just hunting endless or non-endless like void keys and getting what you needed - outside t3 keys near the end which could only be from mid high level rotation C rewards or rarely from hard Dark Sector survival/excavation.

Primes regularly went for 400p-600p, hek some wanted them even more, and that still happens on the first day now. "Scams" are lying or cheating someone in a deal by conveying your trade has functionality it does not, or that you need to do multiple parts. If two players agree on a price, its there thing; not a matter of "scamming". The reason for the reduced prices is reduced demand, more players have bought the last few prime accesses since they don't want to farm them - at least from the many players I interact with. As for Baro, his prices went down for a visit or two and then went up higher than during the void system, while Baro has also offered fewer progression or interesting items under the relic versus void system. Your decreased pressure to work toward Baro is likely because the NPC is currently missing his stated purpose of giving primes additional value to players (when they have extras) and veteran progression. Some of his cosmetics have still been nice though.

How do you decide when the fissures are random? Void keys were set in stone as to their reward drop tables per mission type sure, but as long as you got the key, you could do the mission type you wanted. It was always there. You want to do a survival fissure? You better wait for one to show with the right relic type, the right enemy type, or the right tileset type for your variety idea as its random. On-top of that, you are still fighting the Orokin faction for the most part but with dynamic corruption making the random enemy faction chosen Orokin faction too. Want to avoid golden enemies, you are still doing them now. So what is the choice? That if you see the random chance you can select it? If you grinded the relic, grinded the needed traces, and now grind in the mission for reactant from corrupted to open the relic or have to wait to the next reward cycle gathering more reactant to try? While I will agree any repetitive mission will get a general sense of blah and sameness, maybe even start fading to grey; you had more choice before instead of an illusion and it while you had less potentially higher drop rates compared to the rarest items of Rotation C T3 survival, you didn't need to jump through hoops to do it.

[Arrectius]

7 minutes ago, Urlan said:

In the old void keys, you would get a t4 endless key on any high level interception and near the end, rotation C of high level survivals, as each of these keys could give your entire team rewards - multiple rewards each key, this meant less grinding unrewarding normal endless missions if you disliked those. The situation of how you get relics has not overall changed. The element of thinking relics are more common as drops is balanced by both needing more per return and having sub-varieties to hunt within each tier that can not be easily remedied by just hunting endless or non-endless like void keys and getting what you needed - outside t3 keys near the end which could only be from mid high level rotation C rewards or rarely from hard Dark Sector survival/excavation.

Primes regularly went for 400p-600p, hek some wanted them even more, and that still happens on the first day now. "Scams" are lying or cheating someone in a deal by conveying your trade has functionality it does not, or that you need to do multiple parts. If two players agree on a price, its there thing; not a matter of "scamming". The reason for the reduced prices is reduced demand, more players have bought the last few prime accesses since they don't want to farm them - at least from the many players I interact with. As for Baro, his prices went down for a visit or two and then went up higher than during the void system, while Baro has also offered fewer progression or interesting items under the relic versus void system. Your decreased pressure to work toward Baro is likely because the NPC is currently missing his stated purpose of giving primes additional value to players (when they have extras) and veteran progression. Some of his cosmetics have still been nice though.

How do you decide when the fissures are random? Void keys were set in stone as to their reward drop tables per mission type sure, but as long as you got the key, you could do the mission type you wanted. It was always there. You want to do a survival fissure? You better wait for one to show with the right relic type, the right enemy type, or the right tileset type for your variety idea as its random. On-top of that, you are still fighting the Orokin faction for the most part but with dynamic corruption making the random enemy faction chosen Orokin faction too. Want to avoid golden enemies, you are still doing them now. So what is the choice? That if you see the random chance you can select it? If you grinded the relic, grinded the needed traces, and now grind in the mission for reactant from corrupted to open the relic or have to wait to the next reward cycle gathering more reactant to try? While I will agree any repetitive mission will get a general sense of blah and sameness, maybe even start fading to grey; you had more choice before instead of an illusion and it while you had less potentially higher drop rates compared to the rarest items of Rotation C T3 survival, you didn't need to jump through hoops to do it.

You got a t4 key every rotation C on interception only, t3 keys all the other endless on rot C (I remember cursing the rng for getting the wrong key again and again)  t2 and t1 were really easy to get, also im not sure if we had discussion before lol. Also i would totally agree with you if before you could get prime every rotation, but reality wasnt like that, you want to know how many orokin cells, and cores i have from those endless (i would have prefered random rare resource instead of just OC tbh). Also camping for hours is not my idea of having fun in the game, have done it for endurance at some point. If you are not camping you can go at most to 1:40 and with a good team to bost, otherwise you would go only for an hour thats 3 rot C. where i can assure the ammount of prime you will get from that was in prom 6 items, without mentioning the 3 ridiculous chance at 3% to get the rare part you wanted on rot C. Of couse all of this is my own experience probably very different than yours if you could go for a lot of more time than me, and probably most of the community. I think the system brought down the market for campers for sure and they have all the rights to complain about it even if i personally dont like camping, that was a good way to get platinum (I did it as well sometimes when i was poor, boring times for me).

Yeah primes went for really high prices the main difference was the time those prices stayed like that. For example Ash prime was expensive until relic system came to light, so that makes me wonder why the price dropped so much, ofc all of this before his rework, he is a way cheaper now even while vaulted. Again just talking about market prices, real numbers are on DE hands. About baro well, like i said before i havent really though much about him cuz i dont need him anymore lol

When i said i decide what faction to run i mostly meant to say that before i was forced to run endless on void for the rarest part, now i can do a quick mission or just go on an endless if i feel like it and if i want to run against that faction.

I still do sometimes my endless missions but like before for 1:30 at most, rarely past that mark nowdays ofc without camping, i do this when i see and surival fissure and call some friends to do it, just that we get a prime item on every rotation and at the end we get a radiant relic that we usually use to finish the run.

I do agree with you that getting traces can be tedious, you know how i get those myself, when the loging system gives me a drop booster i go and spam a lith fissure and if by luck there is a quick mission on it i can get around 1.5k in just 3 hours, if im unlucky with the fissure about 800. This is just me, but i dont have trouble having traces, well is not that im farming something specific anymore, after all i got all the prime stuff on the first week, so nothing else to get in that regard, so I just try to get new sets of everything. Other of my goals atm is getting a radiant relic of every single relic. Im done with the liths already :D

Again lets talk about my own experience with the vault that just close this past month that passed with rhino and mag, You know i got 4 full sets of rhino prime and 5 full sets of mag prime and i still have some of the relics. I dont consider myself lucky in fact i think i did like 3 runs in prom for each rare part. But i wonder how many sets i would have gotten if old system were still running.

If you liked old system, good for you and its a shame is not here anymore, maybe it will be back someday for other stuff. But my own experience tells me that the new system is better to get the stuff you want. Maybe is just me being extremely lucky nowdays and really really unlucky before but market prices tell me so far that maybe is not just me.

 

PD: Did a quick proofread, apologizes if there are mistakes, english is not my main language.

 

[DrBorris]

And I personally find relics better in every way to keys. 

 

To each their own...

[Daktaro]

i'm kinda new ish so never played the old void with the keys but i don't see what's wrong with the endless fissures as they are now :c

i like endless fissures the most... they are pretty much the only fissures i do unless hopping in a specific relic share party. 

you get plenty of traces each time and if you go in the good missions like xini, berehynia, void defenses and survivals etc they have good chances at dropping relics as rewards so you're using relics and getting relics back most of the time. that's not even counting the bonus relics every 5th round/wave etc. 

plus i find people use upgraded relics in random endless fissure often enough, it's not only intacts. have noticed people tend to start bringing them out as well as vaulted relics the longer you stay in - maybe they're happy people didn't just hop in an endless do 1 round and leave. i do this too now that i have excess traces to make random things into radiants. will use them if a party stays in a mission for some rounds. have also found that if one person gets a gold, a lot of the time if you stay in the mission each other person will also get a gold 1 after the other. it has happened many times to where it really doesn't seem like just a coincidence anymore o_o

another good thing about relics is that you have chances to get vaulted primes >w< even though i'm new i managed to get volt prime, odonata prime, vasto prime, hikou prime sets and random other pieces that were vaulted before i started playing, from other people's old relics. 

[Hypernaut1]

 

 

8 hours ago, Urlan said:

How do you decide when the fissures are random? Void keys were set in stone as to their reward drop tables per mission type sure, but as long as you got the key, you could do the mission type you wanted. It was always there. You want to do a survival fissure? You better wait for one to show with the right relic type, the right enemy type, or the right tileset type for your variety idea as its random. On-top of that, you are still fighting the Orokin faction for the most part but with dynamic corruption making the random enemy faction chosen Orokin faction too. Want to avoid golden enemies, you are still doing them now. So what is the choice? That if you see the random chance you can select it? If you grinded the relic, grinded the needed traces, and now grind in the mission for reactant from corrupted to open the relic or have to wait to the next reward cycle gathering more reactant to try? While I will agree any repetitive mission will get a general sense of blah and sameness, maybe even start fading to grey; you had more choice before instead of an illusion and it while you had less potentially higher drop rates compared to the rarest items of Rotation C T3 survival, you didn't need to jump through hoops to do it.

You can still run any void mission you feel like if you truly enjoyed doing the void.

What's makes relics 10x better is that I'm not forced to do a mission type I don't like to get a part. What good is having a "choice" in keys if you know that they don't have the part you need?  Then you're just farming ducats

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I miss void farming specific parts. I been grinding since rhino prime unvaulted and haven't got a single rhino relic. When he was in the void and i could farm specific pieces(keep in mind it took 40-60 min runs) i could farm a full rhino set in under a week, sometimes 2 sets.

 

Now however, i have to farm for relics, knowing it could take weeks just to get the right ones... Then when i finally somehow out of pure rng find the relics i need... Then i have to hope that those relics give me the one specific part i want.

 

Theres an extra step in there. Not to mention i have to use traces to increase my chances for the part i want but that is so random... I more often than not get the parts i want without using a single trace.

And dont get me started on reactant.

 

In short, i want the old way back. Goin to a t4 knowing exactly where the part is i want then replaying that one mission till its mine. Then being able to immediately build it or trade it without a whole nother lvl of crap.

Edited August 6, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Lost_Cartographer]

I no longer need to spend 20 minutes/waves in a mind numbing game mode to have one chance at the dozens of pieces shoved into t3/4 rotation c. Now I can wait for a Sabo or exterm and get my stuff that way.

[Urlan]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 

 

You can still run any void mission you feel like if you truly enjoyed doing the void.

What's makes relics 10x better is that I'm not forced to do a mission type I don't like to get a part. What good is having a "choice" in keys if you know that they don't have the part you need?  Then you're just farming ducats

Yes, its true, I can run any void mission on the starchart, but much like before Specters of the Rail, and somewhat core to the problem with retention in such games at times, there is no reason to do so as you will not get any rewards for your time spent. Unless you really like getting less credits in a cache than you get from simply running the mission itself, most of the time while refreshing for a few, you get none of the return on time the void keys represented. You don't have a choice in the current system in what you really want to run for your prime part, though in practice you could, if the fissures had open access to mission types - the available missions are random as are the factions and locations. Why would you waste more time and resources to farm ducats when Baro brings little and the price of Baro's stuff was increased due to players like you a I building up large stockpiles to fill the time?

[(PSN)ozgurozacik]

I hate relics too. People doesn't seem to understand this though:

If you had 4 person with the same key let's say t4 capture than you can do it 4 times and get 4 rewards...

..But now if you have 4 person with the same relic you can do that mission once and just select 1 reward missing out on those other 3 rewards.

This is bad for grinding more prime parts that you can use and grinding more prime parts for ducats but as I said nobody talks about this or even understands it

Edited August 7, 2017 by (PS4)ozgurozacik
Oto correction

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)ozgurozacik said:

I hate relics too. People doesn't seem to understand this though:

If you had 4 person with the same key let's say t4 capture than you can do it 4 times and get 4 rewards...

..But now if you have 4 person with the same relic you can do that mission once and just select 1 reward missing out on those other 3 rewards.

This is bad for grinding more prime parts that you can use and grinding more prime parts for ducats but as I said nobody talks about this or even understands it

Exactly

[Hypernaut1]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)ozgurozacik said:

 

I hate relics too. People doesn't seem to understand this though:

If you had 4 person with the same key let's say t4 capture than you can do it 4 times and get 4 rewards...

..But now if you have 4 person with the same relic you can do that mission once and just select 1 reward missing out on those other 3 rewards.

This is bad for grinding more prime parts that you can use and grinding more prime parts for ducats but as I said nobody talks about this or even understands it

Its much better to do those 4 runs in one mission. With the current system, you should have more than enough ducats to buy every new item from Baro when he shows up with enough to spare for extras. Grinding isn't even as important now.

Even if you do need to grind for ducats, relics are still a much better system because you get to choose higher ducat items in 1/4 of the time. Getting 4 rewards for 4 relics is not really that great of an advantage when most players have tons of spare relics for grinding anyway .Another advantage is that i can grind ducats in pugs AND possibly still get lucky with a part from a relic i dont have. I dont need to form a group or solo. I got Helios Prime while grinding  ducats and traces. One other advantage to relics is that while grinding ducats, you earn traces to refine rare relics you care about.

 

[Deathkgt]

Pros to relic system vs key

-no more leechers/afkers, they have to pick up 10 reactants.  They can't hold hostage the key user, since the key would be used up after the first rotation A if they leave.

-better odds at getting your prime parts, by upgrading your relic or luck from another fellow Tenno's relic.

-no more useless rewards such as crafting materials, credits, etc.  

-play on any tile set, instead of the same void tileset

-no more rotation C, no more 20+ minutes on a mission to get that prime part.

-don't need to look lfg anymore, solo friendly

-everyone has to use a relic or no reward (no more groupshare thieves that leave after someone else use their key)

 

 

Cons to relic system vs key

-lazy people will have to grind and use relics in order to possibly get the part they want.  They can no longer lfg in chat and join on someone else's key.  (ironically these people rather spend 20 minutes on chat than 20 minutes grinding for the relics/keys)

-keys can give more 1 prime part on endless missions.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Its much better to do those 4 runs in one mission. With the current system, you should have more than enough ducats to buy every new item from Baro when he shows up with enough to spare for extras. Grinding isn't even as important now.

Even if you do need to grind for ducats, relics are still a much better system because you get to choose higher ducat items in 1/4 of the time. Getting 4 rewards for 4 relics is not really that great of an advantage when most players have tons of spare relics for grinding anyway .Another advantage is that i can grind ducats in pugs AND possibly still get lucky with a part from a relic i dont have. I dont need to form a group or solo. I got Helios Prime while grinding  ducats and traces. One other advantage to relics is that while grinding ducats, you earn traces to refine rare relics you care about.

 

Grinding isnt even as important? Its all grindin.. this new system is more grinding. I grind to find relics... U grind to open them into wat u want... U also grind for traces... U get one part per relic for all that effort. 2-3 step system... 1 reward

Old system... U grind for a part. Everyone gets to partake in all the spoils instead of having to choose... U get wat u were grinding for and can build it or sell it. No second or third step. One step system... multiple rewards

 

 

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Grinding isnt even as important? Its all grindin.. this new system is more grinding. I grind to find relics... U grind to open them into wat u want... U also grind for traces... U get one part per relic for all that effort. 2-3 step system... 1 reward

Old system... U grind for a part. Everyone gets to partake in all the spoils instead of having to choose... U get wat u were grinding for and can build it or sell it. No second or third step. One step system... multiple rewards

 

 

Context. Grinding for tons of ducats isn't  necessary.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I dont grind for ducats

[ra9una]

I wasn't in love with the system when it came out, but I've learned to really appreciate the benefits it has over the last system. That said, I would stand by the initial feeling of frustration I had when it comes to finding a group. I think that the actual root of the problem is not the relic system, but the vaulting system, because the relics change it becomes harder and harder to find groups to run specific relic shares if you aren't running the popular (usually new or newly vaulted) relic du-jour. And to top it all off, the method of finding a group in the first place is a chaotic chat, so if your looking for something obscure, you get to stare at scrolling text for twenty minutes before playing your mission. In most cases, this cna be avoided by farming large amounts of relics and then just running them radiant in PUGs, takes more time, but you get traces and other parts so it's fine... I still find it messed up though that to enjoy the experience I need to sacrifice efficiency with the stuff we've already worked to farm.

My only wish for the system is a queue. The ability to select a relic, and be put into a list of players looking to run that relic (of that specific refinement level). When four players are queued, they get poped into a squad and dropped in the mission. This makes the process more efficient (no more missing things in chat, or having two incomplete groups competing in recruiting), takes away the waste of time (staring at the screen, now you queue, alt-tab, and come back when the mission starts) and most of all it'll make it possible, maybe at least a little, to run relics in 4x rad that aren't the current interest of the community at large.

[(PSN)remo_yesman]

I stand by what I said man.. Just now I seriously had to Rad relics for 2 ppl in the squad, because we didnt get a Venka gauntlet out of a Meso V5 rad, an they didnt have the void traces to continue, an i happen to have 850 from farming Forma..  *Facepalm* we didnt get the gauntlet, an i didnt even need it, i was jus tryna help out a MR9, but it went way farther than that, did i mention we didnt get the gauntlet...  I turned off the game, it was all i could do not to throw my controller..

@ra9una

Edited August 11, 2017 by (PS4)remo_yesman

[Teloch]

Mkay. Considering that you do realize that relics are here for good, the only thing I could say is "have fun hating"

[SeaUrchins]

I think they should add a system so we can grind some relics to exchange for relics, to farm prime stuff. That'd be so fun!