A Call to DE for Help:The Community is Growing again, and it's More Toxic than Ever: we need more Mods and GOTL please!

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Speaking as an off-and-on player of PC WF since pre-Steam integration, and a player of the console version since its launch: the PC version has nothing on the PS4 version's region chat. There's a few reasons for this, but a big one is that scrolling QWERTYs are unpleasant to use. People who want genuine conversation will seek it elsewhere. What's left is memes, apathy, twitter-esque profanity, and single-word censor dodges. I don't know how big DE's internal support team is, but I suspect it already represents a meaty portion of the company's man-hour budget. It may not be realistic to expand as drastically as is needed to clean up PS4 region. Before I disabled region earlier this year, mods and GOTL were a rare sight. It was 24/7 S#&$posting, and not the funny kind. I don't envy their position, especially given past tensions between DE and their volunteer staff. Nevertheless, more volunteers are desperately needed. Sad to say if DE ever does manage to clean up region, I won't be there to know about it. But some of the posters here are correct in that the best thing you can do is exercise discretion, try to engage people in genuine conversation, and report people you believe are sincerely being hateful.

Also, thank you @DreamsmithJane. I was this close to linking a transcription of the Amendments lol. I swear, the only people I see ranting about the Constitution are people who haven't read the @(*()$ thing since grade school. Better hope they never have to sign a contract.

[DreamsmithJane]

34 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Just ignore people that annoy you and your WF life and RL will be much better.

Meh. If someone says something I don't like, I dismiss it and go do something else, or in extreme cases add them to my ignore list. But that's just if I "don't like" what they say. Actually toxic players should be removed altogether, not just because one player doesn't like them, but because their presence is unhealthy for the community as a whole.

Scenario 3: I tried scenario 1 and it didn't work, so I abandoned region chat altogether. My life improved, but I had to ignore almost everyone.

Edit: to be clear, it "didn't work" because I still saw people responding to the toxic players constantly.

Edited August 18, 2017 by DreamsmithJane

[Andaius]

20 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Meh. If someone says something I don't like, I dismiss it and go do something else, or in extreme cases add them to my ignore list. But that's just if I "don't like" what they say. Actually toxic players should be removed altogether, not just because one player doesn't like them, but because their presence is unhealthy for the community as a whole.

Scenario 3: I tried scenario 1 and it didn't work, so I abandoned region chat altogether. My life improved, but I had to ignore almost everyone.

Edit: to be clear, it "didn't work" because I still saw people responding to the toxic players constantly.

Don't you just have to click on clan chat to fix that? I always click off of global when ever I log in then never have to see it the whole gaming session.

[DreamsmithJane]

Just now, Andaius said:

Don't you just have to click on clan chat to fix that? I always click off of global when ever I log in then never have to see it the whole gaming session.

You can actually remove the Region tab from your chat window entirely in Options, which I have done.

[Andaius]

Just now, DreamsmithJane said:

You can actually remove the Region tab from your chat window entirely in Options, which I have done.

I never bother to completely remove stuff just in case I want to actually look in there once in a while I don't have to go hunting to put it back. I usually do it to stop the constant chatting that would appear at the bottom left of my screen.  can be distracting when your trying to shoot stuff. I generally can block out the words if I don't want to pay attention to whats actually being said.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

No, you're the one who's mixed up. Freedom of speech, as a legal concept, is in fact about the inability of the government to punish you for speaking your mind, and only that. It does not include having a right to be in private spaces (real or virtual) while you speak your mind, and you can rightfully be removed if the owners don't like what you're saying. They can't stop you from saying it, but they don't have to let you stay, and they don't have to associate with you. It also doesn't include having a right to encourage or incite crimes, or put people in danger with your words, as in the infamous example of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater to create panic. And bullying and harassment are crimes, not protected by "free speech".

So government isn't allowed to punish you for speaking your mind, but private entities are free to do that? So bullying and harrasing - banning and prosecuting, - people for saying what they want isn't a crime then? 

 Listen, I get what you're saying. But there's a huge mistake there. You can put anything under the definition of "bullying and harrasing" - literally anything that makes people feel uncomfortable. Hell, the notion of Earth being round makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Religious people feel harrassed and insulted when you criticize the God and their favourite teachings. Doesn't mean tho, that a deeply religious person is free to off you on his private property, if you happen to not believe in God and speak up about it.

 That's why freedom of speech as well as freedom of life and movement are inherent rights of an individual and not something that could be violated on a private property - because you carry those rights with you wherever you go. It's not suddenly ok to torture and murder people on private property because you think their rights stop when they enter it. Freedom of speech is just as much of an inherent human right as the right to live. And if it's violated - anywhere, - it's a crime.

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

You want to talk about "both sides"? One of those sides is going out of their way to make things unpleasant for other people, and the other side just wants to play a game without that toxicity.

Both sides go out of their way to make things unpleasant. Don't pretend like any of the sides is a white sheep - it's a huge mistake to think that way. One of the greatest sources of trouble and negativity in this world is the model of thinking that for some reason some groups of people are inherently bad and the others are inherently good. Leading to all sorts of special treatment and cencorship. Both sides (any sides) have a capacity to be toxic - and this thread proves it 100%.

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

And DE can't "permanently shut them up". But those people can and should be removed from the game, if that's how they're going to behave. They can mouth off somewhere else. Speech has consequences, like any action, and the concept of "free speech" does not protect anyone from them. There is nothing even a little bit wrong with having standards of behaviour in a community build on private property (i.e. DE's servers).

Gay people were isolated, prosecuted and stigmatized throughout the ages just because some people thought that they "should be" isolated, prosecuted and stigmatized. Just because their sexual tastes violated "standarts of behaviour in a community". Their very existense was considered offensive - to the people, to the nature, to the government. You're commiting the same mistake, m8. Exactly the same mistake. You're trying to stigmatize everyone who would ever speak up against a whole plethora of topics without even willing to hear them out. Can't you see? It's the same thing.

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Some "free speech" advocates just aren't able to differentiate between one kind of speech and another. It offends them that it's possible for a person to be held criminally liable when the crime in question consisted of words, regardless of the nature or circumstances of those words. But that is just too bad, because we don't have to protect people who indulge in harassment, or hate speech, or threats, or anyone else who derives pleasure from causing other people distress. We don't, and DE doesn't. That is not protected "free speech", and these forums and in-game chat are not public spaces.

No! There is "free speech" and there is "cencorship". 

Free speech is either there or it isn't there. If you limit freedom of speech in any way - it's gone. Words don't hurt people. Actions hurt people. And if you take actions against people's words, you are the one using force. If someone hurts you with a word you are free to hurt him back with another word - that's still a conversation. But the second you try to force anyone to shut up, you become the agressor. And a real one. 

 People who "indulge in harrasment", as you call them, as long as their harrasment is verbal don't violate anyone's freedoms, don't violate anyone's rights. If you don't like what they say, you are free to ignore them - and it is your inherent right. But when you take actions against them for whatever they say - you commit a crime far worse than any verbal abuse imaginable. 

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

See, this is what I'm talking about when I say some people can't or won't differentiate one type of speech from another. This has nothing to do with disagreement. Disagreement is a healthy thing to express. It allows differing points of view to be reconciled. Disagreement is not toxic. There are disagreements right here. But when you try to frame insults and hate speech as mere disagreement, that's when you've lost the thread.

Are you confident to be the moral standart for what is "healthy" and what is "harrasment"? Do you really think there is a single person out there worthy of deciding what is right and what is wrong in the matters of what people say and think? Don't you see it yourself by now? The self-proclaimed "Progressives" step in the same hole as all the other tribal groups that came before them. This is a problem - this is THE problem. People not being able to handle other people's words and ways of life and resorting to actions against them. 

On 8/18/2017 at 1:14 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

So yeah, don't "both sides" this. Both sides are not equally valid.

I'm sure inquisitors thought exactly the same way. I'm sure sodomy investigators thought exactly the same way. I'm sure every single opressive tribal group in existence thought exactly the same way. "We are the good and the righteous and they are the evil ones!" 

 Honestly, forget that kind of thinking, dude. This is messed up.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Letter13
Removed inappropriate language

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

4 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Snip

Have all my +1's!

5 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

No-no-no. You can ask them to leave, but they are still free to say whatever they want. You're mixing the concepts here. Freedom of speech is about being able to say whatever you want wherever you want, but the private owners (and governments or ideoloical groups) will often prosecute or just straight up use force against you to stop you from speaking your mind on their poperty (whatever they consider their property). This is what you're asking for, m8. For DE to more actively shut people up. Is that what you want? I personally don't think we need more of that, but you are free to disagree with me on that. 

It is exactly that. The only difference is that supposed minority wants for once feel the power of the majority and do the same sh*tty things the majority does on a regular basis. Do you really want to be like that, m8? I don't think you do. I hope you don't want to.

Call me a bigot. Call me anything as long as we speak. Maybe eventually people will get tired of calling each other names, seeing how stupid it is and engage in a proper conversation. By banning people you disagree with for saying things you don't like, you only prevent the dialogue from ever happening. "Learn how not to say bigoted things," is the same as "learn to behave like everyone else", "learn to love the gender everyone else does", "learn to be a man/woman" and the list goes on. People will never understand things like that unless we talk. And banning is just kiling off the posibility of any conversation happening. It's inquisition, m8, but on a smaller scale and on the internet.

 You literally asking DE to create an echo chamber for people with the same opinion and ban anyone who disagrees.

@DreamsmithJane already addressed much of this.  I will address a couple things though.

Quote

It is exactly that. The only difference is that supposed minority wants for once feel the power of the majority and do the same sh*tty things the majority does on a regular basis. Do you really want to be like that, m8? I don't think you do. I hope you don't want to.

Where are you getting that from?  Equal rights is not a zero-sum game, and when people ask for equal rights, they are asking for equality, not the ability to have more rights, like the situation we currently have.  You want to hold onto more rights.  You want the right to tell anyone and everyone whatever you want to say, no matter how odious it is and force them to listen without criticizing you.  It's Freeze Peach.

Quote

"Learn how not to say bigoted things," is the same as "learn to behave like everyone else", "learn to love the gender everyone else does", "learn to be a man/woman" and the list goes on.

No, it's nothing like those things at all.  It's called learning to actually be tolerant instead of being a d-bag, especially when the people on your side of the argument are always the ones saying the last 2.  C'mon.  I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

5 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You are free to ignore people, but you shouldn't be allowed to permanently shut them up. There's a huge difference there that you're probably missing.

DE is not obligated to provide a platform for your hate speech.  It is not "permanently shut[ting you]  up" if they decide not to host your speech.  You are free to create your own private venues and say all the bigoted things you want to say there.  But, again, and it doesn't seem like you understand this, DE is not obligated to provide a platform for your speech.

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Define, "bigoted things."

Do it without buzz words like racism, homophobia, islamophobia, transphobia, etc, etc.
Better yet, define each of those individual things because your definition of those things will probably prove that you're not calling actual bigots out.

How about the person I was responding to define it, because that person seems to be the one who is complaining about not being able to say such things without repercussions.

Additionally, anyone who things racism, homophobia, etc is a "buzzword" and therefore worthy of disregarding has very little grasp on the issue at hand.  That you seem to think I have no idea what I'm talking about is funny.

3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

The support ticket winds its way through the queue and DE may or may not do anything about it.  The person could have been been saying something hateful or saying something you just didn't like.

Meanwhile, the support queue is getting longer because more people are getting their feelings hurt in chat.

Oh please.  I'm sure that it's just people getting their feelings hurt, and they have no idea how to tell if something is actually hateful or not.  Can you please be a bit more condescending, I don't think you've gone far enough.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

So government isn't allowed to punish you for speaking your mind, but private entities are free to do that? xD So bullying and harrasing - banning and prosecuting, - people for saying what they want isn't a crime then? 

No, see you don't get it.  When you act badly, DE is well within their right to not host your speech.  It's not bullying.  It's not harassing.  It might be banning, but it's not prosecuting.  You can say what you want, but you are not free to do so without repercussion or criticism.  Your privilege is showing greatly here that you think you get the right to speak your mind, but no one else is allowed to speak up against you.  It doesn't work like that.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Freedom of speech is just as much of an inherent human right as the right to live. And if it's violated - anywhere, - it's a crime.

No, it is not.  I am not obligated to let you say stupid, bigoted nonsense in my private spaces.  I do not have to allow you to come into my house and say whatever you want.  That you think you have this right is mind-boggling.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Both sides go out of their way to make things unpleasant.

This is like claiming that people who protest the KKK are the real racists.  It's nonsense.  If you feel uncomfortable because you are being a bigot, then too bad.  You deserve to feel that way.  You deserve to feel the way the minorities have felt for hundreds (more really) of years while people like you have said and done things to make them feel that way.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

One of the greatest sources of trouble and negativity in this world is the model of thinking that for some reason some groups of people are inherently bad and the others are inherently good. Leading to all sorts of special treatment and cencorship. Both sides (any sides) have a capacity to be toxic - and this thread proves it 100%.

No, it does no such thing.  No one is claiming anyone is inherently bad or good.  We're saying that if you act like a bigot, then you deserve to be called out on it.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Free speech is either there or it isn't there. If you limit freedom of speech in any way - it's gone.

Demonstrably untrue.  Again, no one has to host your speech.  You're still free to put up your own private space and say all the bigoted things you want to say.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

People who "indulge in harrasment" as you call them as long as their harrasment is verbal don't violate anyone's freedoms, don't violate anyone's rights. If you don't like what they say, you are free to ignore them - and it is your inherent right. But when you take actions against them for whatever they say - you commit a crime far worse than any verbal harrasment imaginable.

Congrats, you've just committed a crime "far worse than any verbal harassment imaginable" because you took action against speech you didn't like.  Way to own goal it.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

"Progressives" step in the same hole as all the other tribal groups that came before them. This is a problem - this is THE problem. People not being able to handle other people's words and ways of life and resorting to actions against them.

Oh, grow up.  It seems like it's you who can't handle any sort of criticism.  If you say something racist and someone calls you out on it, you start crying that it's the worst crime possible that someone would criticize you by, ironically, using their free speech rights which you seem to champion when it's your speech but disregard when it's anyone else's speech that you disagree with.  You're being a rank hypocrite.

On 8/18/2017 at 5:12 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I'm sure inquisitors thought exactly the same way. I'm sure sodomy investigators thought exactly the same way. I'm sure every single oppresive tribal group thought exactly the same way. "We are the good and the righteous and they are the evil ones!" 

 Honestly, F@ck that kind of thinking, dude. This is messed up.

Um, you do realize that the inquisitors and "sodomy investigators" were on your side in this?  You do realize that you're speaking up for the oppressive tribal group, don't you?  Don't you?  I bet you think that the Nazis in Charlottesville were the ones in the right, because they were using their free speech and the counter-protesters deserved to get run over, yeah?

And, I have no doubt that you don't give a damn about LGBTQ rights and other minority rights, which makes your uses of them as examples hideous and vile.

[Silvus-Sol]

7 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Freedom of speech is about being able to say whatever you want wherever you want...

No, it is not. You are 100% wrong. You are the one with the misconception. That is not and has never been what freedom of speech is.

You really should look it up if you insist on typing paragraphs about it and lecturing others. Your entire viewpoint and argument is based off a common misconception of what freedom of speech is, not what it actually is.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Silvus-Sol

[Troll_Logic]

36 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Oh please.  I'm sure that it's just people getting their feelings hurt, and they have no idea how to tell if something is actually hateful or not.  Can you please be a bit more condescending, I don't think you've gone far enough.

I don't think I can.  You've explained my point better than I did.

Let's use this for an example.

You hate me.  You call me every name in the book.  Insult everything about me.  Just really unleash your best insults.

Again, this is over the computer.  All you've done is string together a few words.

I have two choices.  I can engage you or I can simply ignore you.

One of those choices takes care of the problem immediately and forever.  One doesn't.

Now, I can report you.  What does that really do?  Nothing really.  Sure, support may talk to the guy, but really, who cares?  I've already dealt with the problem.  Immediately and forever.  I never have to worry about you again.

 

Now, let's use this example.

You say something to me I don't like.  Could be anything.  I could take it as an insult or racist or any other way.  But you've offended me.

Again, I can simply ignore you and be done with the problem.

I can also report you.  Again, what would that do?  DE may do something about it.  they may not.  How do I know that it was hate?  Maybe that person just had a bad day.  Maybe that person was fired.  Or is quitting smoking.  Maybe that person is a 10 year old that is simply lashing out because of whatever.  Who cares?  Ignoring the person deals with the problem.  

Live and let live.

 

Too many people want to be the person that thinks "OH NO, you're not disrespecting me by saying that to me.  I'm going to tell on you and get you into trouble."  I'm from the generation that said this "Stick and stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me." not the generation that says this "I have the right to never be offended anywhere I go."

[Troll_Logic]

32 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

You deserve to feel that way.  You deserve to feel the way the minorities have felt for hundreds (more really) of years while people like you have said and done things to make them feel that way.

Um, you do realize that the inquisitors and "sodomy investigators" were on your side in this?  You do realize that you're speaking up for the oppressive tribal group, don't you?  Don't you?  I bet you think that the Nazis in Charlottesville were the ones in the right, because they were using their free speech and the counter-protesters deserved to get run over, yeah?

And, I have no doubt that you don't give a damn about LGBTQ rights and other minority rights, which makes your uses of them as examples hideous and vile.

And I was starting to agree with you until you pulled out these pearls of wisdom.  Threads gonna get locked now.

This is why we can't have nice things here.

Oh, and you know how I mentioned ignoring people deals with problems immediately and forever.  We're done.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Troll_Logic

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

*Ahem*

DE, please lock this thread. It's gone off the deep-end.

But first, I'd like to point something out. 

28 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

No, see you don't get it.  When you act badly, DE is well within their right to not host your speech.  It's not bullying.  It's not harassing.  It might be banning, but it's not prosecuting.  You can say what you want, but you are not free to do so without repercussion or criticism.  Your privilege is showing greatly here that you think you get the right to speak your mind, but no one else is allowed to speak up against you.  It doesn't work like that.

There's a key miscommunication here. You are responding to Apero's cry of censorship by saying that DE is free to criticize aberrant behavior. Apero is not complaining about criticism, he is saying that it is hypocritical to remove a troublesome member from the platform. Banning is not a form of criticism. This is an age-old dilemma. If an entity is vested with the authority to remove people from its environment for vaguely defined behavior, they then have the freedom to discriminate. But without any authority to control the environment it creates, it can be overrun by aberrant behavior with no way to recover.

This being said, I completely disagree with Apero. The idea that if I create a chatroom and then ban someone for attacking my members that I am committing a crime against humanity, is utterly puerile.

[DreamsmithJane]

16 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

So government isn't allowed to punish you for speaking your mind, but private entities are free to do that? xD So bullying and harrasing - banning and prosecuting, - people for saying what they want isn't a crime then?

Private entities are free to control what happens on their property, and who has access to it. And no, banning people from private property, or prosecuting them for committing a crime (if indeed they have), is not a crime. Of course not. And just so we're clear, if someone gets "banned" from posting here, for example, that is DE refusing to publish their words. They have not been censored in any way. Nobody has any inviolable right to be published or given any sort of platform for speech by another party.

24 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Listen, I get what you're saying. But there's a huge mistake there. You can put anything under the definition of "bullying and harrasing" - literally anything that makes people feel uncomfortable.

No, you can't. The words have actual definitions. They are not arbitrary, and it is possible to demonstrate whether a person's actions and words are injurious in some way or not. This false equivalence is the "huge mistake", and nobody is buying it.

26 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Doesn't mean tho, that a deeply religious person is free to off you on his private property

Holy crap, how did we get from "get off my lawn" to "die, heathen"? We are strictly talking about "get off my lawn", here, and everyone has that right.

29 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Both sides go out of their way to make things unpleasant.

This is an outright lie. When one group slanders another, speaks against their right to exist, speaks against their right to equality before the law and within society, issues threats, and so on, and the second group tries to get them to stop saying these things, that is not an equivalent situation where "both sides are bad". It's completely ridiculous to claim that they're the same.

30 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Gay people were isolated, prosecuted and stigmatized throughout the ages just because some people thought that they "should be" isolated, prosecuted and stigmatized. Just because their sexual tastes violated "standarts of behaviour in a community". Their very existense was considered offensive - to the people, to the nature, to the government. You're commiting the same mistake, m8. Exactly the same mistake. You're trying to stigmatize everyone who would ever speak up against a whole plethora of topics without even willing to hear them out. Can't you see? It's the same thing.

Okay, here we go with the false equivalence again. Advocating against the existence or equal rights of certain groups of people is not protected as "free speech". Speaking up against people having rights equal to yours cannot be equated to those people simply existing as a "point of view" to be heard. You can't look at that situation and say "you gotta hear both sides!", because there's no argument. There's simply a denial of one group's rights, and no, you don't have the right to deny others' rights. It's not the same thing. It's not even similar.

58 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Words don't hurt people.

This has long been proven false. This is why if you bully someone until they commit suicide, you can be held criminally liable.

59 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 People who "indulge in harrasment" as you call them as long as their harrasment is verbal don't violate anyone's freedoms, don't violate anyone's rights.

Wrong again. Harassment is an actual crime.

47 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I'm sure every single oppresive tribal group thought exactly the same way. "We are the good and the righteous and they are the evil ones!"

There is no oppression in demanding equality for all people. All people. The only possible way anyone can feel oppressed by that is if they believe that some people are not equal, and it is their inherent right to deny that equality. Only oppressive groups can feel oppressed by the notion of equality.

[Troll_Logic]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

This being said, I completely disagree with Apero. The idea that if I create a chatroom and then ban someone for attacking my members that I am committing a crime against humanity, is utterly puerile.

Exactly.  Only government can censor.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Where are you getting that from?  Equal rights is not a zero-sum game, and when people ask for equal rights, they are asking for equality, not the ability to have more rights, like the situation we currently have.  You want to hold onto more rights.  You want the right to tell anyone and everyone whatever you want to say, no matter how odious it is and force them to listen without criticizing you.  It's Freeze Peach.

Don't put words into my mouth, please. How would I be able to force anyone to listen to me when I say anything? In case of Warframe you have lgnore list. In real life you have your inherent freedom of movement that nobody has a right to violate. The only way of effectively making people listen to anything they don't want to hear is by restraining them and screaming to their ears. We, fortunately, lack that capability in case of internet in general. That's why it's so important to protect free speech on the internet. It's the only platform where people are free to talk without the fear of physical violence. Why would you want to take that away from the people in the first place? It's your freedom to speak your mind as well! Don't give up on your freedom of speech just because you don't like some people spouting some silly offensive nonsense. Who even cares about insults that people say on the internet? What are those words worth?

 But If you push for the more restrictions, more control by the authorities - one moment when you have something important to say, you might not be able to do that yourself. 

 It is very much a doble-edged sword. You have no idea what you're toying with.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

This is like claiming that people who protest the KKK are the real racists.  It's nonsense.  If you feel uncomfortable because you are being a bigot, then too bad.  You deserve to feel that way.  You deserve to feel the way the minorities have felt for hundreds (more really) of years while people like you have said and done things to make them feel that way.

Using force against the people you disagree with - prohibiting them from speaking their mind is very much something that KKK would do (among other things). And stop stigmatizing people you don't understand, please. You talk as if all people who were raised in certain environments are inherently bad just because they didn't arrive in their ethical development at a certain very specific point named "tolerance". You didn't arrive there yourself, yet, if I say so myself. It's an incredibly hard thing to combat all the social misconceptions that people are raised with. You fight them one by one with a lot of inner work and time put into it. You can't just expect people from different cultures to behave in the same sterile manner. It's never gonna happen.

 That's why we need internet so much. We need people of different races and cultures to interact with each other freely. To speak their mind and be replied to - not ignored or banned, or anything like that. A person who was banned for a mistake will never learn. A person who bans will never learn either. Because conversation ends with a ban. (or in real life it ends with things far worse than a ban). 

 This is an incredibly serious topic and you really need to think it through much better than you did so far. No offence intended.

 Don't be dismissive to the people you disagree with. Please. It's a truely horrible mistake to commit.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

No, it does no such thing.  No one is claiming anyone is inherently bad or good.  We're saying that if you act like a bigot, then you deserve to be called out on it.

Call out whatever you want. Tell them how much of a bigots they are. I'm all for it. But don't forbid them from talking back. Because you might be wrong and you'll never know if you don't listen to them.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Congrats, you've just committed a crime "far worse than any verbal harassment imaginable" because you took action against speech you didn't like.  Way to own goal it.

-_- You realize how silly this part is, right? Moving on.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Being tolerant doesn't mean that we have to allow bigoted and hateful speech.

That's a huge contradiction. Speech does nothing to you. If you want to speak up against bigoted and hateful speech you are free to do so - that's your right. That's what I'm talking about. But you can't shut the people up. That's what KKK would do. That's the definition of oppression. And you want to do it based on your own personal judgement - which is exactly what KKK and the likes did and do. How can you not see this? You ask for the same methods to be used with pretty much the same self-righteous motivation behind it. 

 KKK are just as solid in their beliefs as you are. Both sides would only find a way to understand each other and change their beliefs through dialogue. But if both sides are trying to silence each other - there is no chance for dialogue. No chance for mutual influence, no chance for a change.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Oh, grow up.  It seems like it's you who can't handle any sort of criticism.  If you say something racist and someone calls you out on it, you start crying that it's the worst crime possible that someone would criticize you by, ironically, using their free speech rights which you seem to champion when it's your speech but disregard when it's anyone else's speech that you disagree with.  You're being a rank hypocrite.

 I've been writing you and the guys who share a similar opinion with you for hours and hours. If that's not a sign of my honest attention, I don't know what is. I've been talking to really messed-up bigoted people who wanted me dead personally as a representative of an ethnic group. And I spent time talking to them. Listening to them. Arguing with them. And perhaps even understanding some of them - at least some of the mechanisms behind their systems of beliefs (hopefully). That's the only way I know how to form an opinion on something - anything. If you blindly ban them though, forbid them from speaking their mind - they will retreat to their personal echo chambers and will never change.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

Um, you do realize that the inquisitors and "sodomy investigators" were on your side in this?  

First of all, please, don't brand me. I was born in a national and religious minority (even though I'm not a religious person myself) in my country. All the things I talk to you guys about are things that I put through my mind every day for years since I've learned how to think. The only side I have is mine.

 I speak up in this thread because I think that OP and some of the people here (you included) are misguided and fall into the same trap that all echochambers create for the people locked inside of them. I firmly believe that all people are the same - anywhere and everywhere no matter of the circumstances of their birth and the echo-chamber they were born into. That's why I advocate for people to be able to converse freely and without fear since it is the only way to break out of the echo-chamber of your own. That's why I'm so against any and all forms of verbal cencorship.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

And, I have no doubt that you don't give a damn about LGBTQ rights and other minority rights, which makes your uses of them as examples hideous and vile.

Don't assume things you have no way of confirming, please. I had been thoroughly thinking through my feelings about LGBT people for quite a while now. Really extensively for a year and a half since I started playing Warframe - I met a lot of interesting new people here some of them were gay, and I really enjoyed our conversations. But just as any people everywhere - some of them are nice, and some of them aren't so much. So the answer I have about LGBT and the people in general is this:

"You are human first and everything else comes second. Do not define yourself or others by the random secondary traits."

 That's why when you say things like: "these guys are bad because they think this way and say this, but we are good and righteous because we think the other way" - I cringe. You just being born in a different echo-chamber by accident and now you want to seal it the same way members of other echo-chambers do. This is no good. I've seen this many times, so I can recognize it. That's why I speak up.

 

 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 8/18/2017 at 6:23 PM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

This being said, I completely disagree with Apero. The idea that if I create a chatroom and then ban someone for attacking my members that I am committing a crime against humanity, is utterly puerile.

I have to agree that this here is where my logic is incomplete. I will think about this part. But the OP isn't talking about you excluding the people you invited yourself from a chat room. It's about a higher authority banning people they have no emotional involvement with, nor compassion for. When you ban someone from your chat room, you don't forbid him from talking permanently - you just add him to the ignore list. Sort of. But yes, where does an ignore list (private chat room) ends and a public platform begins? This is a tricky question, I admit.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Letter13
Removed inappropriate language

[(PSN)JsinOwl]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:35 AM, aerelm said:

As much as I appreciate the time and effort guides and mods put into the game, I personally don't believe they can have much of an impact on the community on their own. It's never the toxic players that make a community "toxic", but rather, lack of effort from non-toxic players. A community as a whole won't be considered toxic unless toxicity becomes the norm it in (and fortunately, Warframe is far from that point so far), and toxicity won't become the norm unless the majority of the community become indifferent and apathetic and let the toxic players define the direction of the community.

This being the internet, having toxic individuals around the place is inevitable, but each community tends to attract like-minded people based on what the established norm of that community is, and if the trolls aren't fed they'll just get bored after a short while and move on. So, in my opinion the only way to prevent a toxic community would be for the non-toxic players to actually go out of their way and put extra effort into being welcoming and friendly toward players (old and new alike), to establish the norm as a nice and helpful community. If the majority of the community are nice people and fun to play with, toxic players won't last long and won't be able to shape the general image of that community.

So, to put it bluntly, if anyone wants to have a friendly community, they themselves have to work for it and can't expect another group of people like guides or whoever to do it for them. Being (even) nicer to other players, helping out newer players and having a generally friendlier attitude toward other community members does wonders... Or when ending up in a team with a toxic player, just ignoring em or even leaving the game and finding another match rather than going on a loop of pointless arguments with them which only motivates them to repeat that same harmful behavior again. Being friendly can spread much easier and faster than being toxic, so even if only a handful of people put some effort into actually encouraging a better attitude, eventually more and more people will be motivated to do the same, and at the end of the day, everyone will prefer the enjoyable encounters they've had with nicer players to the unpleasant encounters they might have had with the toxic ones, and will try to get more of the better experiences on their future game sessions.

Though, I'm not denying that having a "governing body" overseeing the community (be it in form of ingame mods or guides or DE's community team) can have a considerable impact on the situation, but unless the majority of the community also work for it and try to enhance the player experience in the game, anything the guides or mods do will only have temporary impact on the game, and things will be back to how they previously were soon after, which would make their efforts go to waste.

tl;dr - Want a better community? Make it so yourself.

This post is so full of win. Bravo.

Though it's sad that this debate is happening it all. I can't understand why anyone would want to be mean or derogatory towards another in the first place.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's the problem. Do you even consider that you might be wrong? If you are wrong and ban everyone who could tell you about it - how would you know that you're wrong? That's the whole point of this conversation, and you fall into an exactly the same trap as every single tribalist in the history of humanity. Don't think that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong - that's not always true.

My, but you are tedious.  And, spare me the BS.  I'm not wrong in this case.  You are fighting for racism.  You are fighting for the ability to say racist things without criticism.  You keep claiming that you aren't and then arguing in a contradictory way to what you're claiming.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Don't stigmatize Any people you don't know. Any people you don't understand. You never met me, you never talked to me before and you assume things about me the same way people you hate so much would assume things about you without ever meeting you. Without ever talking to you. Do you really think you are any better if you do the exact same thing as they do?

Yes, I do.  Why?  Because despite what you claim, I know quite a bit about you from your own actions, words, and arguments.  You seem to think that what you say, what you argue, what you do has no bearing on who you are - or at least that's what you're trying to argue.  But, that's simply not true.  That you choose to argue in favor of racism is an action.  That you use the words you use is also an action, and the words you use are horrid and vile.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Racism and nationalism, and other such forms of discrimination won't last through time - as long as there is a platform where everyone is free to converse and exchange ideas.

No, they don't simply go away on their own.  They have to be rooted out, just like we did today in Boston.  We sent those Nazis running for the hills.  Sorry (not sorry) for your loss.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

So with what part of "You are human first..." - you disagree? Or do you disregard this just because I'm not willing to agree with you on other topics? Oh, God (p.s. still not a religious person).

This is just simple intellectual dishonesty.  You know full well I was disputing your sob story that you clearly have made up in order

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

What actions, m8? On the internet there are no actions.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.  What you choose to say is an action.  The act of typing it out is an action.  And, your actions speak very loudly.

10 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

DE isn't a singular entity - it's an organization. One moderator has no right to represent the whole organization and decide based on his personal judgement what kind of conversations are allowed in the public spaces and what kind of conversations are forbidden. You and the OP are asking for a rushed populist decision. You don't know how to solve the problem - you're just being emotional about it. And it's not the best topic to be emotional about.

Lol about your insistence that DE can't police their own chats, that they own.  Lol on your insistence that being emotional about a topic somehow means that you can't actually discuss it.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Does it really drive anyone away? Does it really hurt anybody? It's just some random idiot saying stupid things. He might even be african himself. How would you know? You have no way of knowing that. You judge him/her based on a couple of words he/she said and want to use authority against him/her based on your imperfect judgement. System can filter the words - there's nothing special about it.

 Yeah, If some guy wants to swear - all props to him it's his right, it's his choice. I speak up for the free speech because I want to be able to say whatever I want when I want without the fear of being prosecuted for it - in the game or IRL. When you start prohibiting people's words and expressions there's no end to this. You only need to start.

 Words don't hurt anybody. Actions hurt people. If you take actions against words instead of just talking back or ignoring - you are the agressor.

OK, you're so not worth talking to if you think that what I saw in the chats was no big deal.

[stormsasuke180]

I think having more Guides of the Lotus would be really beneficial to the game. Plains of Eidolon will bring in a lot of new players so it will be very important to have someone new players can look to for help.

[Fearless_Observer]

On 17/08/2017 at 7:58 PM, (PS4)THREEKLAW said:

 I just want a more consistent Mod and GOTL presence in our community

While this doesn't happen and to get more peace of mind just try adding those trolls to your ignore list. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

14 hours ago, stormsasuke180 said:

I think having more Guides of the Lotus would be really beneficial to the game. Plains of Eidolon will bring in a lot of new players so it will be very important to have someone new players can look to for help.

Next thing you know, we'll be having a Youtube Heroes campaign in Warframe - Warframe Heroes? To massflag and moderate the community. What could possibly go wrong?

[stormsasuke180]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Next thing you know, we'll be having a Youtube Heroes campaign in Warframe - Warframe Heroes? To massflag and moderate the community. What could possibly go wrong?

I don't get it :/ Isn't GoTL a thing where players become a resource to help out other players and answer questions? Not sure what does massflagging have to do anything with this? 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, stormsasuke180 said:

I don't get it :/ Isn't GoTL a thing where players become a resource to help out other players and answer questions? Not sure what does massflagging have to do anything with this? 

That's not what OP is asking for. People don't need an official GoTL status to help. I'm not GoTL I help new players all the time - there's nothing else to do anyway. He's asking for more moderators to be actively present in the game at all times to tell you, what you can or can not talk about. And punish you, if you dare to cross them.

Edited August 20, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Letter13]

Locking to preserve information. 

I'll try to bring this up with the GotL folks and staff who handle the GotL program. 

The main takeaway I got from this is that chat moderators (GotL or otherwise) seem to be inactive or nonpresent on the PS4 chats. This issue likely carries over to XB1; and this is made evident by the large quantity of disrespectful/abusive/hateful speech that gets posted to the in game chats without noticeable repercussions. Things that could probably be done to remedy the issue either improving the chat filter (specifically kickbot's filter to kick/ban users who post rule violating messages) and/or bringing on additional PS4/XB1 Guides of the Lotus with an emphasis on chat moderation.

For the record, any form of hate speech, be it sexist, racist, derogatory, vulgar, etc. is forbidden on the in game chat; posting such messages may result in your being kicked, temporarily suspended or permanently suspended from using the in game chat depending on the severity (permanent chat bans can only be issued by DE support).

And, as always, whenever you see another user posting rule violating messages, please take a screenshot and report it to DE support by attaching the screenshot to a Support Ticket. (To avoid flooding support with tickets, please reserve this option for the more severe infractions such as users posting excessive hate speech, racism, threats to others, and so on).