I know it's been said 5,000 times, but...the Hema

[ShadowFel]

I recently returned from a roughly 6 month hiatus from Warframe.  And overall, the game seems to be going in a good direction.  I'm really looking forward to Plains of Eidolin and Umbra.  But, there's something that's been bothering me, something that keeps me from enjoying playing Warframe,,,

The Mutagen Sample cost for the Hema research.  You see, I like to do clan stuff solo.  And, insofar, it hasn't been that hard.  I've got about 20 rooms in my dojo for everything I want, I have most of the research done (a couple things in the Tenno Lab, the Knux, and the Lenz are the only things I have left besides the Hema), and research materials have never really been a problem.  Except with the Hema.  The Neurode cost? High, but acceptable.  The Nano Spores cost?  Pssh, Nano Spores are one of the most plentiful resources in the game.  Plastids?  Again, high, but much more manageable than the Neurodes.  But then there are the Mutagen samples.  5,000 mutagen samples is equal to, if not more than, the "sample" requirements of every single other research in the game COMBINED, by my count.  2200-ish Detonite Ampules for everything in the Chem lab (including the Ignis Wraith, which has a tradeable blueprint), 2,200-ish Fieldron Samples for everything in the Energy Lab, and 500-ish Mutagen Samples for everything in the Bio Lab besides the Hema, plus the research of the Dark Split Sword and the build cost of Nidus, totaling 4,900-ish.  Which is less than the 5,000 needed for the Hema.  

But that gratuitous number isn't the problem.  The problem is that number combined with the abysmally low drop rates of Mutagen Samples, and how few places they drop.  I often run as Nekros, just because the extra loot and mod drop chances are nice, and even as Nekros, I'm lucky to get 1 Mutagen Sample in a full AABC cycle on an endless mission on Eris.  In the entire process of farming Nidus's parts, I probably got 2 Mutagen Samples total.  The drop rate is higher in the Derelicts, but still not that high, as, again running as Nekros, I generally end up with 25-30 Mutagen Samples in an hour of Derelict Survival, or 40 waves of Derelict Defense (which can take about an hour for me as a solo Nekros).  Right now, having completed all other research that requires Mutagen Samples, I have about 400 Mutagen Samples stored up.  Which means, if I optimistically get 30 for each hour I devote to farming them, it will take a little over 153 hours to get the rest of what I need.  Or about 6 and a quarter days of farming gameplay.  Which is daunting enough that it has sapped any fun out of playing in Eris or the Derelict, which I actually like playing in.  And I've started to feel dread every time I open the star chart, because when I see Eris, or see the Derelict, I'm reminded that I need to devote a week of my life to farming Mutagen masses.

I know that there are some people out there who have hundreds of thousands of Mutagen Samples because they've been playing for a very long time, and for those people, that many is just a drop in the pond.  I can respect that.  I can also respect the effort that other people have put into farming up that many Mutagen Samples.  I don't want to discount their achievements.  But I also want to obtain the Hema while maintaining what little sanity I have.  I don't want to just buy the Hema with platinum, because if another Bio Lab research project comes up that requires the Hema to be researched, I have to buy that weapon too.

So I ask you, DE, if you could please bolster the drop chances of Mutagen Samples, or lower the research cost of the Hema.  Even if you lower the research cost down to a still outrageous amount, such as 3,000, that still takes days of my, and other solo players', boredom off.  And maybe add Mutagen samples to the drop tables of other locations, such as Mercury, which does have an infested element on the current star chart.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ShadowFel

[AlphaPHENIX]

I mean at least the drop rate is higher then it was originally, just look at this. 

But ya, I am not even trying to defend that thing, however DE did give their final word on not doing anything else about it.

[Thistlebalm]

7 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

I mean at least the drop rate is higher then it was originally, just look at this.

As I understand it they looked at the drop rates and simply said it drops more in the derelict, nothing was changed after the hema released.

[KIREEK]

If you decide on an ammount of time to get hema, let's say 2 weeks and you state in the clan chat that in 2 weeks you want hema researched, you will see exactly why it's not researched, you might think it's the drop rate, but if you kill enemies in the mission while you scan for kavats, gather corrupted mods, unlock the star chart, farm for specific warframe parts, do the missions for fun then you will likely have enough mutagen samples for research.

The issue is that among the "playing players" that login daily, after 2 weeks you will realise they killed 100 enemies in 2 weeks or that they donated 0 mutagen samples.

It's not the droprate, it's the laziness, you see many players asside from some missions, do not kill much, they kill like 10 enemies in a capture mission while others kill 20x more, it's a bit obvious that after 10, 20, 50 missions things start to be noticiable.

The more effort you do, the faster you kill and the more you kill the higher will be the ammount of samples, as for the players with no donation on samples, you decide on what to do with them, but i'll be real, they aren't playing and aren't doing much in your clan, even if they claim to be.

[ShadowFel]

5 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

If you decide on an ammount of time to get hema, let's say 2 weeks and you state in the clan chat that in 2 weeks you want hema researched, you will see exactly why it's not researched, you might think it's the drop rate, but if you kill enemies in the mission while you scan for kavats, gather corrupted mods, unlock the star chart, farm for specific warframe parts, do the missions for fun then you will likely have enough mutagen samples for research.

The issue is that among the "playing players" that login daily, after 2 weeks you will realise they killed 100 enemies in 2 weeks or that they donated 0 mutagen samples.

It's not the droprate, it's the laziness, you see many players asside from some missions, do not kill much, they kill like 10 enemies in a capture mission while others kill 20x more, it's a bit obvious that after 10, 20, 50 missions things start to be noticiable.

The more effort you do, the faster you kill and the more you kill the higher will be the ammount of samples, as for the players with no donation on samples, you decide on what to do with them, but i'll be real, they aren't playing and aren't doing much in your clan, even if they claim to be.

I'm the only person in my clan, so I know exactly how much is being donated or withheld by clanmates.  0, because they don't exist.  I've done everything in the clan myself so far, and I will continue to do so until it becomes truly impossible.  I just wish that this task didn't feel quite so Sisyphean.  

[KIREEK]

Recruit members?

[Yzjdriel]

Just now, KIREEK said:

Recruit members?

Did you read the OP?

38 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

You see, I like to do clan stuff solo.

 

[KIREEK]

Yes, but why not change and recruit members, that way the effort is split up to 9 more members

[ShadowFel]

1 minute ago, KIREEK said:

Recruit members?

I won't for the exact reason you stated in your original response.  I sometimes take long breaks from Warframe, and I don't want to be dead weight for clanmates.  I also don't want to resent clanmates for being dead weight, so...I'm sticking with solo.  I have considered finding a friendly person who has those hundreds of thousands of Mutagen Samples, and asking them to donate for me, but I'm not to that point of desperation yet.

[Katinka]

I've found that I tend to get more samples from containers and lockers than I do from enemies.  I usually play solo or with one clan mate and there have been a few times I've done solo Exterminates with a Dragon Key to try for a Corrupted mod (I know I should run a full team to guarantee opening the vault but I'm happy with a 1 in 4 chance and the freedom to go at my own pace) and I find I tend to get about 12 without trying.  Same for Maroo's weekly Ayatan runs when they are in Derelicts.  Now, 12 might not sound like much but that's from an Exterminate so if you are getting 25-30 from an hour in Survival then maybe spending 5 minutes a mission thoroughly looting Exterminates would be more profitable.

[-Temp0-]

28 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

If you decide on an ammount of time to get hema, let's say 2 weeks and you state in the clan chat that in 2 weeks you want hema researched, you will see exactly why it's not researched, you might think it's the drop rate, but if you kill enemies in the mission while you scan for kavats, gather corrupted mods, unlock the star chart, farm for specific warframe parts, do the missions for fun then you will likely have enough mutagen samples for research.

The issue is that among the "playing players" that login daily, after 2 weeks you will realise they killed 100 enemies in 2 weeks or that they donated 0 mutagen samples.

It's not the droprate, it's the laziness, you see many players asside from some missions, do not kill much, they kill like 10 enemies in a capture mission while others kill 20x more, it's a bit obvious that after 10, 20, 50 missions things start to be noticiable.

The more effort you do, the faster you kill and the more you kill the higher will be the ammount of samples, as for the players with no donation on samples, you decide on what to do with them, but i'll be real, they aren't playing and aren't doing much in your clan, even if they claim to be.

This @!&*( again. Yes it IS a fcn drop rate. I was playing for 2000+hours and in that whole time only got 1,500 mutagen samples overall in total while all other resources with exception of things like neurodes and neural sensors were sitting at 10 000-15 000 (even fieldron samples and detonite amplus which should be as rare as m samples basically) to 100 000 cryotic, plastids and oxium, 5 000 000+ nano spores and more.

The reason no one or barely anyone donates m samples is because of the godawful droprtae no one has spare m samples, I was stupid enough to donate 1000 of that 1500 to the previous clan I was in and I never saw the Hema completed after several months they still missed a half - i sacrificed 2/3 of my total m samples and got sht in return. The only way to get it if you really want without any headache or trying to rob others is by creating a solo clan and waiting till one of the 3 days boosters drops, then grab another one from the market, bring Nrkros+smeeta+slash weapon and grind for about 20 hours total only then you will be able to get 5k. Weapon itself is sht and worth it only as mastery points and affinity for the clan. Smashing containers and playing "misisons for fun" will NEVER get you 5k m samples no matter how long you will be playing.

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Recruit members?

Because someone is actually will be willing to grind like a slave for a new clan when they can get it from older competitive clans even if for platinum.

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 I have considered finding a friendly person who has those hundreds of thousands of Mutagen Samples, and asking them to donate for me, but I'm not to that point of desperation yet.

Kek.

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Yes, but why not change and recruit members, that way the effort is split up to 9 more members

Because why the fck would you? Who said they're gonna donate ANYTHING to begin with - there's dozens and dozens of stroies how people were asked to donate something for Hema and end up just ignoring it, leaving the clan or being kicked out of the clan when they refused. Who said that it's worth wasting time recruiting people for one weapon when you have no intentions on doing anything other than that with them? 

Doing "a thing" solo means you're the only one responible for the outcome of that thing which is in 99% of cases is simple awesome, you can do whatever the hell you want in the time you want it, there's no pressure in finding people, trying to organize them or pressure into doing what you want,  inviting people does not makes sense for players that run solo clans. It was a freaking reason to do it solo to begin with,going back just because of weapon is like. Why bother? You can as well just leech it off some already existing clan then.

Edited August 30, 2017 by -Temp0-

[(PSN)GexGehko]

1 minute ago, ShadowFel said:

I sometimes take long breaks from Warframe, and I don't want to be dead weight for clanmates. 

Not just that, but if you have other clan members and take too long of a break, then they can actually make a request to DE to take your position as clan leader.. and if DE allows it then you could end up being kicked from your own clan.

[Rakiss]

If I remember correctly, they only drop from containers in eris.

So there's a finite number in every eris mission and the only other place they drop is closed to public matchmaking.

They aren't a resource that is passively accumulated like everything else except nitain.

[PurpleBomber]

The funny thing is that DE has said at various points they do want to be considerate to solo clans regarding future dojo/clan developments... which I guess they kinda need to be if they're going to stand by giving solos the middle finger with the Hema research, lol. It's always been a remarkably strange stance to dig in on, giving that DE's already made precedent of reworking research/building costs in past cases. Heck, just the most recent patch cut into the Razorback cypher foundry costs ahead of that event restarting. By Hema logic, why would they even do that?

[ShadowFel]

1 hour ago, PurpleBomber said:

The funny thing is that DE has said at various points they do want to be considerate to solo clans regarding future dojo/clan developments... which I guess they kinda need to be if they're going to stand by giving solos the middle finger with the Hema research, lol. It's always been a remarkably strange stance to dig in on, giving that DE's already made precedent of reworking research/building costs in past cases. Heck, just the most recent patch cut into the Razorback cypher foundry costs ahead of that event restarting. By Hema logic, why would they even do that?

Yeah, I don't understand why they took such a hard stance with this weapon.  Especially since the Lenz, which seems to have pretty comparable costs in all other ways, requires only 1,000 Fieldron Samples, and Fieldron Samples drop a lot more frequently than Mutagen Samples.

[KIREEK]

17 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

Stuff

But you're entering into clan problems and management, you sure your clanmates can't donate 15 samples, are they always out of samples to donate every single day? Man confront those clanmates, because that doesn't smell right.

Again, why you even left the clan, why not bring the issue to the other clanmates before jumping out knowing the samples would be wasted? Remember, you also picked the clan and there is no time limit on that decision, you joined because you wanted to.

Edited August 31, 2017 by KIREEK

[-Temp0-]

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But you're entering into clan problems and management, you sure your clanmates can't donate 15 samples, are thay always out of samples to donate every single day? Man confront those clanmates, because that doesn't smell right.

I don't have any clanmates and perfectlyt fine with that, and I have Hema vie research. Previous clan sucked big time in that matter and so do 90% of them in general. The only ones that don't are probably competitive ones that will take too much of your time + most of them aren't really a nice place to be in so take your poison. Either a solo clan where you can do everything but it will take time, a clan where no one cares but all friendly and sht or competitive one where all atcivity is centered around impossible grind and where you're often will be questioned if you're grinding enough. The only option that doens't suck is a small 10-30 people clans where everyone is playing and even go to the toilet together but that's too much to ask for.

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Again, why you even left the clan

Because it's WAY easier to do everything alone. Thats' the whole fckn point of running a solo clan.

There's no point in "bringing anything up" when your clan is 500-1000 players and you're not even a leader (the leaders always ask players to donate on discords and stuff but that's just a white noise). Literally pointless. You might not noticed but most people only donate spare resources they have shttons of, some don't donate anything at all - that's how most clans were from the very beginning, the major part is donated by veterans and such, by minority. Plus some just play like once a week and can't be bothered. Those who could already donated and it was half of the cost, as the clan wasn't competitive no one bothered to squat in Derelict for hours they just played the game as they liked.

You can't know what the clan is like until you join unless it's highly competitive but chances are you won't be able to get in to begin with anyway,most peopel won't downgrade the clan's tier and you can't demand active palyers to grind because it's simply abusive. So yes it was easier to just live.

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before jumping out knowing the samples would be wasted?

That only time I just misread the build requirements nothing more. If I read it right first time that it was 500 000 I wouldn't donate at all though it doesn't matter as I said, it's way easier to do everything by yourself if you're not slacking than trying to "talk to people to do the thing". That's how it's always been in all groups including real life, lots of leeches and freeloaders that can't be bothered to do anything and that will always wait for someone else to do everything for them. Hema made me establish my own clan that's what it did and it won't be the other way, that is actually the easiest way to get such thing. If you're donating to your clan and don't leech it's far more profitable and you're not risking being expelled for one reason or another (especially inactivity for 2+weeks) so that way your resourses wo't go to waste ever.

Edited August 30, 2017 by -Temp0-

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I agree the Mutagen Sample cost is high, but given Steve's response "...Clan research is supposed to be harder to obtain..." I was expecting the Hema research to start a new trend.

Fast forward to arguably stronger clan Research weapons like Lenz with a lower cost by comparison.

Hema research feels like the Status Only mods, where they are present to show the imbalance.

 

Honestly, I was hoping more research items were going to follow Hema's example in truly depleting our resources.

I used 2 accounts in the same clan to fulfill all Hema research. (Easier to use an alt account to farm and level when granted a daily booster of some sort.)

Mm

[ShadowFel]

9 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I agree the Mutagen Sample cost is high, but given Steve's response "...Clan research is supposed to be harder to obtain..." I was expecting the Hema research to start a new trend.

Fast forward to arguably stronger clan Research weapons like Lenz with a lower cost by comparison.

Hema research feels like the Status Only mods, where they are present to show the imbalance.

 

Honestly, I was hoping more research items were going to follow Hema's example in truly depleting our resources.

I used 2 accounts in the same clan to fulfill all Hema research. (Easier to use an alt account to farm and level when granted a daily booster of some sort.)

Mm

And herein lies a part of this problem.  There are some players who play so frequently and farm so hard that no resource has any value to them, so DE wants to raise resource requirements so that there is a chance of depleting their resource stores.  Then there are players just starting out, or who play more casually, who don't have excesses of every resource, and as a result, when faced with costs intended for people who have been storing up resources for years, can't hope to obtain these things except by playing for years or slogging through playing the same mission on the same tileset over and over and over.  There are only a few cases where there are these high resource drains, and the Hema is undeniably the worst I've seen, but each one of them is an insult to everyone who is either just starting or who don't have huge stockpiles of resources.  And the thing is, for many players who have large stockpiles, the increased costs STILL don't really give any value to their resources.  Kuva is probably the only example of a resource that no one has a stockpile for because it has been recently introduced, and, more importantly, it has consistent use.  And that's really what DE should do if they want to drain players' resources.  Not these high costs, but giving us opportunities to frequently use our resources for some advantage. That way, players who have their excessive resource totals will gradually burn through them, but players just starting out, or who don't farm hard, aren't virtually locked out of content.

And, reading some other responses, the high cost of the Hema may cause another problem: it's so high that people don't want to donate.  And why would they?  In a larger clan, the hundreds of thousands of Mutagen Samples can seem like an unattainable goal, and why should they put their resources toward a goal that they will never see the payoff of?  Better to save up their resources to donate to something that they will eventually obtain.

[Gamma745]

11 hours ago, KIREEK said:

you sure your clanmates can't donate 15 samples, are thay always out of samples to donate every single day? Man confront those clanmates, because that doesn't smell right.

Because not everyone run Derelict everyday. They can have fun virtually everywhere else. Why lock it to just the Orokin Derelict?

 

To OP, I know you're upset, but DE is already quite adamant about this situation. Mutagen Sample droprate will not be touched, Hema won't be tweaked, regardless of how many people complaining. Just ignore it. After some time, Hema won't even be required for Mastery.

[-Temp0-]

3 hours ago, ShadowFel said:

And herein lies a part of this problem.  There are some players who play so frequently and farm so hard that no resource has any value to them, so DE wants to raise resource requirements so that there is a chance of depleting their resource stores.  

That part in particular is bs by de because there's shtton of resources that needs 'depleting' yet they always choose those that don't. M samples, oxium, even cryotic - don't need it, it's resources that rarely anyone has over 10 k over (with exceptions of the last one) + they drop only on specific planets. It's rare resources. Who in their right mind can justify depleting the? No one. Making you spend them will push people only to grind more, that's exactly what it did to my oxium pile. Because what you think is gonna happen once people will spend all their resources? Go on with their lives and say "it's fine"? That's not how it works lmao, they will farm the sht out of that resource so next time they won't get caught off-guard with it so they will farm x10 more than they had.

Meanwhile, alloy plates, nano spores and other are sitting over one million. Makes perfect sense (not). That's why you shouldn't listen or believe the thing they say when they try to 'justify' anything like that. Not to mention that people that grind for resources do it because it's mostly the only thing of progresion that's left for them, the only reason to play the game at all. Trying to rob them off their resources is like robbing people off the platinum they gained.

 

[Shalath]

4 members of my ghost clan did a 40 minute derelict run. From the drops we calculated how long it would take us to farm that many samples and promptly decided not to bother. This isn't supposed to be a second job and not one of us was prepared to even try so Hema will forever be missing from our dojo. I was fully prepared to quit the game if all future clan research was so ridiculous but none of the recent ones were. The Hema costs just don't make sense and to me it sounds like they aimed high and dug their heels in rather than admit they were wrong then made future research more sensible.

Still, they have said they aren't changing it so that's that. We just have to face the fact that our research will never be complete. One of my clan bought Hema for plat since he is a completionist but the rest of us refuse to "reward" DE for such a move.

[ShadowFel]

3 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Because not everyone run Derelict everyday. They can have fun virtually everywhere else. Why lock it to just the Orokin Derelict?

 

To OP, I know you're upset, but DE is already quite adamant about this situation. Mutagen Sample droprate will not be touched, Hema won't be tweaked, regardless of how many people complaining. Just ignore it. After some time, Hema won't even be required for Mastery.

I don't care about the mastery, really.  I care because someday, the Hema research might be a requirement for more research, and the Hema could serve as a road block for that weapon too.  And because there frankly aren't that many good burst fire weapons, and I like burst fire weapons, so I want to be able to try the Hema and make up my own mind about it.  And because I want to have fun playing Warframe, and knowing that there's something this egregious in the game lowers my capacity to do so.  I mean, even steps like bumping up the Eris drop rate to match the Derelict drop rate would be helpful, because it would mean I was spending hours and hours in two tilesets instead of just one.

[Emulad0or]

Here is a solution to make both DE and the OP happy:

When you create a clan, it is a Ghost clan for 10 people. Just give an option to downgrade the clan from Ghost to a Solo clan with the research cost cut to 1/10 (the same way the cost goes up 3x when you go from Ghost[10] to Shadow[30], but the other way around). 

[Gamma745]

10 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

I don't care about the mastery, really.  I care because someday, the Hema research might be a requirement for more research, and the Hema could serve as a road block for that weapon too.

That is what some, if not a lot of people feared as well. DE did say that they won't repeat this, but refused to say anything more about Hema.

 

13 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

And because there frankly aren't that many good burst fire weapons, and I like burst fire weapons, so I want to be able to try the Hema and make up my own mind about it.

Well, some people said that the Hema is quite good, enough to handle Sortie-level content. Haven't tried it myself though, so I can't say from personal experience.

 

14 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

 I mean, even steps like bumping up the Eris drop rate to match the Derelict drop rate would be helpful, because it would mean I was spending hours and hours in two tilesets instead of just one.

That, or removing the keys for the Derelict so it is open to Fissure and Sorties. Unfortunately, DE refused to even buff the Mutagen drop rate on Eris, and no more word on the matter other than "it won't change".