Mob/AI/NPC combat behaviour

[PH0T0Nman]

The Problem:

One of Warframes weakest points (in my humble opinion) is its AI combat movement. I know the Grineer are degenerate clones that aren't the brightest bulbs, but at the same time seeing a group of genetically modified clones designed for battle running single file at the tenno with a BFG (the f is not friendly) or watching a clustered group of lancers slowly walking sideway while under fire is incredibly sad.

The Reason:

Now this isn't really a problem early game or even for a good part of mid game. Your to busy dealing with progressively harder enemies and missions while collecting guns and warframes. However eventually you hit a point where you litrally barely need to aim as you know exactly where the enemies going to go (which is usually straight at you or the obj) which becomes boring and (for the lack of a better word) unorganic.

The Good (rambling on here):

Good combat AI can literally improve a game by orders of magnitude. 

Example:

Look at the early Halo games AI movement, it didn't solely make the game great but damn did it help. 

Elites diving in and out of cover, retreating or charging, ducking away when hit. Or firing from behind a wall of grunts and jackels. Needing a person to act as bait for a hunter while you circle around behind.

The combos of the different movements and mannerisms of mixed enemy types making each engagement a little different each time. 

 

I could also talk about F.E.A.R and XCOM but I think you get the idea. 

 

The Conclusion:

DE has mentioned they want bring in more complex and interesting mini bosses, sort of like Nox. But like Nox and the rest of once we learn their behaviours it'll fallback to "they're only hard when they're bullet sponges or have rediculous damage". 

Instead just taking basic AI cordoinated behaviour such as attacking in small waves/groups, lines of shields with lancers behind or other forms of more complex behavior will take warframes gameplay alot further.

So... Have I complete missed warframes point?

Is better AI impossible?

Do they really need improvement?!

This post is really badly written but im sick as hell atm and this has been bugging me for ages. 

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS!

Edited September 14, 2017 by PH0T0Nman

[Jicematoro]

I think you're asking too much out of an Online game that has to look good AND run on a potato.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Jicematoro
AND move a lot of Mobs at the same time.

[Emolition]

I played sence end of update 6 and I never really had a problem with the AI. Sure they could maybe add more cool moves and stuff but I rather the game run on my computer as most new games don't or really slow.

[Koldraxon-732]

The problems:

Spoiler

 

Firstly, enemies take too long to get into position, and when they do get into position they're already dead from explosives or literally anything. I can't even pick which enemy had any decent fighting movement beyond the old Stalker and Index/Rathuum enemies.

Secondly, enemies most of the time are thrown into existing formations or messy piles (Kuva Fortress, when not alerted, you will find lots of Lancers in the same room in an ugly pile, like they forgot where they were meant to go or be, but when alerted you see them in perfect ambush arrangements), which usually die or become horribly complicated to deal with depending on the composition.

Thirdly, enemy movement is also bad and lacks explanation (i.e; how can Grineer leap such long distances, how can Corpus do the same?) and should be reworked.

 

The theoretical solutions:

Spoiler

Enemies should be given the ability to learn from their environment and be able to employ premade strategies.
Example 1:
Summonable attack pets (Drahk, Hyekka, Rattel) go first, melee enemies / enemies with shields go second (Shield Lancers, Nullifiers and other Corpus shield projector crew), and infantry go third (Lancers, armed Crewmen), while snipers and other longer-ranged troops spread out and take up positions, not firing until they are all in position (reporting that they are in position first, giving an audio cue to point out that you're surrounded by snipers).
Grineer example:
You're up against Shield Lancers, Scorchers, and Ballistas. Shield Lancers line up in a wall formation, Scorchers crouch and crawl behind them, waiting until the enemy is well in range to let loose their Ignis flames, while Ballistas stick back to cover and lure the Tenno in with weapons fire.
Corpus example:
You find one Moa, one single Moa in the entire room. You kill it, room goes on lockdown and the Corpus throw in a Bursa, some Sapping Ospreys, and Crewmen for good measure.
Sentient example:
Sentients would try to go above your position and then attack you from above, or stay out of your firing arc. The less health they have, the more frantic they get.
Infested example:
Infested are fine as they are, because they're a twisted, ugly mess.
Corrupted example:
The Corrupted, due to being expendable resources, line up horizontally (so you'd see all the ranged troops in a line, and the melee ones in a line in front, with Ancients cowering behind the rest), and they would try to wrap this wall of guns around you so they can kill you with maximum efficiency (surrounding tactic).

All the enemies, except the Infested and Corrupted, would get a bit of machine learning (algorithms much like Animo, which may just be an intricate pile of machine learning code) that allows them to identify the tile they're on, what troops are present, what they're armed with, what powers they have, and where their enemy is. As the mission progresses, the enemy eventually deduces what you have equipped and will try to use that knowledge against you (spawning specific troops that counter your weapons instead of piles of inevitably-scrap-metal).

This means an hour's worth of Survival would result in the Grineer or Corpus sending specialized squads of specific units in bizzare, new formations trying out new, unseen tactics.

Also allies will get this tech, allowing for pets to properly not get stuck, and for allied AI to actually be useful.

 

[DatDarkOne]

Something that I've noticed about the enemy A.I..  The AI holds up pretty well when playing the game solo, but not so well when faced with a group of fast moving Tenno.  when I'm playing solo with or without using Ivara, I can see some interesting interactions/movements/behaviors of the enemy.  When I'm in a group, I see them trying to use that same behavior on the group as they would a lone Tenno.  Needless to say that doesn't always work out for them(the enemy that is).  The possible exception to that rule seems to be the Corpus.  As their tactics and units can straight up wreck us if we aren't careful.  

This is just me hypothesizing using some things I've noticed, and I admit that I could be incredibly wrong.  

[PH0T0Nman]

1 hour ago, Jicematoro said:

I think you're asking too much out of an Online game that has to look good AND run on a potato.

Would it really slow down potatoes though? I'm generally under the impression that the algorithms/rules/parameters around AI movements are not to demanding if done right. I mean Halo CE was in 2000 tgought there was less enemies.

Edited September 14, 2017 by PH0T0Nman

[PH0T0Nman]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Something that I've noticed about the enemy A.I..  The AI holds up pretty well when playing the game solo, but not so well when faced with a group of fast moving Tenno.

I would have to agree with this as well.

[Emolition]

1 minute ago, PH0T0Nman said:

Would it really slow down potatoes though? I'm generally under the impression that the algorithms/rules/parameters around AI movements are not to demanding if done right. I mean Halo CE was in 2000 tgought there was less enemies.

Not sure but just thinking of all the code spam they reduced fixing the sounds in some maps I wouldnt be surprised if it had alot of ai spam  with so many enemies around trying complicated moves.

[PH0T0Nman]

1 minute ago, Emolition said:

Not sure but just thinking of all the code spam they reduced fixing the sounds in some maps I wouldnt be surprised if it had alot of ai spam  with so many enemies around trying complicated moves.

Fairly sure graphics and sound are pretty resource greedy compared to other tasks but I'm pretty much guessing that.

[Jicematoro]

1 minute ago, PH0T0Nman said:

Would it really slow down potatoes though? I'm generally under the impression that the algorithms/rules/parameters around AI movements are not to demanding if done right. I mean Halo CE was in 2000 tgought there was less enemies.

Considering they capped Nekros' Shadows of the Dead to 7 for low end PCs and Consoles, and even like that the AI of both, the Shadows and the Enemies gets more and more $&*&*#(%& with every active head on the battlefield, I'd think so, Also remember this is a horde game, 10-15 enemies spawn every couple of seconds, and that number is multiplied for each party member on the team (Which also affects the ammount of Data the server has to proccess on top of the AI of each individual enemy + the bullets/projectiles/skills in place.)

[Spartan336]

You need bait for Hunters?! Bwahahaha! Git gud.

(Jk of course.)

But in all seriousness I do agree with you. You know what the Infested Ancients first attack almost always is? Grappling hook. You know what I hate? Grappling hooks. And they pretty much spam em. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Spartan336

[Ryim_Drykeon]

One of the things about combat soldiers learning tactics is that they need to survived to learn them. Usually, with a Warframe, there are no survivors. It's like asking why deer don't learn to not cross the road and get hit by cars.

Yes, there are some tactics that could be better, but overall, I believe this is why the Grineer started cloning in the first place. To keep sending in soldiers to replace the dead. The other side is us. Elite warriors. One person armies. Machines of death and destruction. A Warframe not using proper tactics is a waste of a lot of time, effort and expense. A Grineer not using tactics is simply the call to pull another off the shelf. Same for Corpus. The infested....well...nuff said.

[Lakais]

Funny enough, in one of the older Devstreams DE touched on this topic. Basically the problem with giving AI advanced tactics and the like is that they die too fast to but them to use. And in even if they didn't die so fast, you'd be shoulders deep in a horde of angry muppet. So you'll be far too busy to notice their fancy tactical positioning and movements. 

The balancing act is between enemy smarts, numbers and toughness and dev resources. DE has gone the direction of "one against many" and ramped that up high. But to keep the pacing, the enemies die fast. And when they die fast, the entire programming of having enemies doing coordinated actions is never truly utilized. That also means that even IF DE puts in advanced tactics for the enemies, they might easily lock up or become erratic because the parameters with which they do these tactics change drastically. The behavior system might not be reliable when half the platoon suddenly vanishes and then respawns a moment later. Or the player ping-pongs around the map, forcing the AI to reorient itself and start moving units around, also causing them to just run in place because they can't fully decide where they need to be, go or shoot. 

We are simply far too powerful, too fast and them too many and squishy for advanced tactics to be worth the CPU and development resources. 

At least on the standard mook units. Having rare, elite units be a bit smarter is always an option. But again: we can oneshot basically anyone. 

[PH0T0Nman]

20 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Funny enough, in one of the older Devstreams DE touched on this topic. Basically the problem with giving AI advanced tactics and the like is that they die too fast to but them to use. And in even if they didn't die so fast, you'd be shoulders deep in a horde of angry muppet. So you'll be far too busy to notice their fancy tactical positioning and movements. 

The balancing act is between enemy smarts, numbers and toughness and dev resources. DE has gone the direction of "one against many" and ramped that up high. But to keep the pacing, the enemies die fast. And when they die fast, the entire programming of having enemies doing coordinated actions is never truly utilized. That also means that even IF DE puts in advanced tactics for the enemies, they might easily lock up or become erratic because the parameters with which they do these tactics change drastically. The behavior system might not be reliable when half the platoon suddenly vanishes and then respawns a moment later. Or the player ping-pongs around the map, forcing the AI to reorient itself and start moving units around, also causing them to just run in place because they can't fully decide where they need to be, go or shoot. 

We are simply far too powerful, too fast and them too many and squishy for advanced tactics to be worth the CPU and development resources. 

At least on the standard mook units. Having rare, elite units be a bit smarter is always an option. But again: we can oneshot basically anyone. 

Huh, this makes sense!

Prehaps thrn if the do mini bosses they can cordinate a group of enemies with the so they can last a bit longer.

or have a gimick likr only one soft spot to manoeuvre around to get.

 

[TaylorsContraction]

1 hour ago, PH0T0Nman said:

Would it really slow down potatoes though? I'm generally under the impression that the algorithms/rules/parameters around AI movements are not to demanding if done right. I mean Halo CE was in 2000 tgought there was less enemies.

Yes it would. Writing good AI that is efficient is difficult. It really is CPU intensive and the more enemies on screen, the more CPU power they're going to hog. Having said that I agree that an improvement to the AI is welcome. You pointed out some problems enemies have while in combat. What about when you're doing a stealth run and various enemies just walk in a circle of a half meter radius.

Furthermore as enemies get higher level there are other blatant AI flaws. For example enemies are aware when you're targeting them with your cursor and will try to take cover when you're aiming at them. If you aim a little off their center of mass into the surrounding area, they won't do that. Similarly when a lot of enemies are present, if you are tracking an enemy those that are not in your crosshairs will act very aggressively toward you. They can literally be running toward you with their gun, but the moment you aim at them they'll turn around (despite being 2 meters away) and start running for cover. Doing so leaves them completely exposed to bullet rain, no one would do something so stupid in real life.

There are other issues with enemy combat, like they do not care about range. Enemy accuracy only goes up with level, but range does not seem to matter. I can be sniping a lancer from 50 meters away while scoped, and he can 360 no scope me in my head with his grakata. List goes on and on, AI needs a great deal of work so +1 op. Hopefully DE will notice.

[Lakais]

13 hours ago, PH0T0Nman said:

Huh, this makes sense!

Prehaps thrn if the do mini bosses they can cordinate a group of enemies with the so they can last a bit longer.

or have a gimick likr only one soft spot to manoeuvre around to get.

 

Well, I don't know if you've noticed this but enemy AI does do these things. Like for the grineer, in combat with shield lancers, Seekers, Troopers and Lancers do take cover behind the Shield Lancer and move with them. Same with Nullifiers and Cryo Eximi, enemies try to group up under their bubbles. 

[Volinus7]

Doesn't matter, enemies get CCed 24/7 anyway.

 

[BlackCoMerc]

20 hours ago, PH0T0Nman said:

Would it really slow down potatoes though? I'm generally under the impression that the algorithms/rules/parameters around AI movements are not to demanding if done right. I mean Halo CE was in 2000 tgought there was less enemies.

I think a lot of people get the impression that DE would improve the AI while keeping the same numbers we have now.

I don't think so.

With more diverse, tactical.enemu behavior comes the need for fewer enemies on screen. Intelligence is a force multiplier all it's own. If we have smarter enemies, we will need FEWER enemies to challenge a player. Even more so if the AI redesign came with a much needed balance pass.

Something needs to be done regarding enemy design. When you're down to resorting on hordes of control.robbing damage sponges, what you've created isn't challenge, it's tedium.