Lets talk about ember for a minute...

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

So the devs have been doing a pretty good job fixing the warframes that desperately needed attention. Oberon is looking pretty healthy, hydroid is an amazing place right now. And while there are other frames that also need a rework badly ( zephyr, atlas, chroma, etc.), there's one frame that's been bothering me with how she is right now; ember. Now I'm not saying ember is bad or needs a rework immediately, what I am saying is though is that she has the potential to be so much more. Let me explain; embers one is honestly a waste of energy, because I'm pretty sure it's meant to kill enemies, and it stops doing that after maybe level 10. Your be better off using a weapon. Her three does ok cc, but not enough. And her passive is only good in certain situations, and even then you have to expose yourself to take the damage from heat procs. On low levels this isn't an issue, but again what's the point if you can just kill them with your weapon. As for her 2, it's great because it synergizes with heat weapons. Her 4 is useful, but not very interesting. Its a very straightforward ability that just does all the dirty work for ya, which seems very bland of an ability to me. What ember needs is some sort of mechanic where she can build up her damage over time using her abilities, and her powers need to work with one another seamlessly. Now, I understand people can look at what I say and think nothing of it, because at the end of day ember passes for a playable warframe. I myself will still play ember because she is my favorite, I love her theme and that will not change. I just strive and hope for something better, and everyone else should too. These frames that came out recently, like nidus or octavia, have amazing abilites that just work so well together. I hope ember, and other older frames too, can become something like that. Let me know what you guys think

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

Fire can't do much but burn so..

[Troll_Logic]

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

Let me know what you guys think

I think you should buff your ember more.  She's a killing machine that I take into sorties and high level relic missions all the time.

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

9 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

I think you should buff your ember more.  She's a killing machine that I take into sorties and high level relic missions all the time.

I'm not saying she's weak. With the right mods she can be a powerhouse. What I am saying though is that these warframes that have been getting a rework have had their abilities tweaked to where they work with one another. Ember needs something like that , and some other warframes too. I'm not asking for a rework where you turn a bad warframe into a good one, I'm asking for a good warframe to be turned into an AMAZING one. Like nidus level good

Edited September 16, 2017 by (XB1)blazephoenix118

[polarity]

7.47 times damage multiplier before Growing Power, Energy Conversion or Flash Accelerant bonuses.

Used with a Vaykor Hek and Jat Kusar with pure fire builds, and a Rad/Viral/Corrosive Tysis in cases anything resists that element.

Her abilities do work together, because you're usually following up Accelerant with either Fire Blast or WoF.

Edited September 16, 2017 by polarity

[Troll_Logic]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

I'm asking for a good warframe to be turned into an AMAZING one.

IMO, she is amazing and if she is buffed any more, or tweaked before you say "I don't want her buffed', then she'll be OP and nerfed.

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

1 minute ago, polarity said:

7.47 times damage multiplier before Growing Power, Energy Conversion or Flash Accelerant bonuses.

Used with a Vaykor Hek and Jat Kusar with pure fire builds, and a Rad/Viral/Corrosive Tysis in cases anything resists that element.

I'm aware she can be powerful. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is she needs more complexity to what she does. 

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

She doesn't need a buff, I can agree with that. She just needs more utilty you know. I'm sure you would agree with me that ember does need some sort of defensive ability, like maybe overheat? I know firequake is a thing, but that should be an option for her, not a requirement

[polarity]

You seriously need to learn how to play Ember if you think she needs another defensive ability.  Try actually reading the ability descriptions for starters, and then stop building for constant WoF.  The only thing that makes Ember boring is bad players' reliance on the push-4-to-walking-simulator ability, and refusal to combine her other abilities with moving and shooting.

Edited September 16, 2017 by polarity

[aligatorno]

21 minutes ago, polarity said:

7.47 times damage multiplier before Growing Power, Energy Conversion or Flash Accelerant bonuses.

Used with a Vaykor Hek and Jat Kusar with pure fire builds, and a Rad/Viral/Corrosive Tysis in cases anything resists that element.

Her abilities do work together, because you're usually following up Accelerant with either Fire Blast or WoF.

Holy damn ,that's dedication to power strength right there :lol: You can get another 35% from her passive by sacrificing the Primary and  taking a Javlok with only Thermite Rounds and Continuous Misery. You get 12 seconds of 35% power strength bonus and energy regen. 

Just now, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

What defensive ability does she have, besides firequake? Do please enlighten me. Because I've played ember a few months after nezha came out and have been playing her exclusively until recently, and havnt really seen anything defensive about her. Not a shield or damage reduction or anything along those lines

Accelerant is a defensive ability in that it stuns every enemy in its range. But its duration is not that great it requires casting it rather often. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by aligatorno

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

What defensive ability does she have, besides firequake? Do please enlighten me. Because I've played ember a few months after nezha came out and have been playing her exclusively until recently, and havnt really seen anything defensive about her. Not a shield or damage reduction or anything along those lines

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

So I do have an idea for what ember should do. Give this a read and let me know what you think. 

Passive: every time ember does a burn proc on X enemies, she gets X energy back. Also resistant to fire damage. This changes because ember will be using her abilties quite often and needs a sufficient source of energy. She should also have a resilience to fire damage because that just makes sense.

Ability 1: change to smoke cloud. Ember deploys a thick smoke cloud in front or around her, decreasing enemy accuracy. Using ability one again sets the smoke cloud on fire, doing continous damage. The more enemies inside the cloud, the more damage it does. Reason this changes is because fireball is hot garbage of an ability as it does not much damage and is honestly a waste of energy.

Ability 2: accelerant does not change.

Ability 3: change to overheat. Ember receives X amount of damage reduction from all damage types. This is a continuous ability. This changes because fire blast does not do enough cc, and frankly ember is a squishy frame so she needs a defensive ability to help her survive.

Ability 4: world on fire stays the same for the most part, except now it stays in one spot and does not follow ember. This ability can be charged to do more damage and have fire pillars appear more frequently. This changes because running around with world on fire on and killing everything is not that fun and it should be deployed in one area to help defend an objective.

Augments:
 smoke cloud can remove status effects from whoever is inside the cloud. 

Overheat gives off a damaging aura that inflicts damage to enemies within close range.

World on fire also sets the floor With lava, which does corrosive damage.

[Kyronz]

Now that it sounds that they are making focus no longer frame usable skills, there will be many fewer embers at least.    Operator only skills, what an odd combination of silly and  worthless to drive focus into.

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

5 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Holy damn ,that's dedication to power strength right there :lol: You can get another 35% from her passive by sacrificing the Primary and  taking a Javlok with only Thermite Rounds and Continuous Misery. You get 12 seconds of 35% power strength bonus and energy regen. 

Accelerant is a defensive ability in that it stuns every enemy in its range. But its duration is not that great it requires casting it rather often. 

Yeah see I don't count that As defensive, more like utility, because it boosts her damage output. Its not really radial blind good in terms of stunning. 

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

embers one is honestly a waste of energy, because I'm pretty sure it's meant to kill enemies, and it stops doing that after maybe level 10. Your be better off using a weapon. Her three does ok cc, but not enough. And her passive is only good in certain situations, and even then you have to expose yourself to take the damage from heat procs. On low levels this isn't an issue, but again what's the point if you can just kill them with your weapon. As for her 2, it's great because it synergizes with heat weapons. Her 4 is useful, but not very interesting. Its a very straightforward ability that just does all the dirty work for ya, which seems very bland of an ability to me.

Ember's design is simple. She doesn't have the mechanical cohesion that of the newer synergy-focused frames do, but her kit is thematically very nice and her abilities cooperate with each other  for a variety of playstyles. We have options for those looking for more hard-and-fast synergy, and classic Ember is pretty acceptable without those more flowcharty mechanics. While there may be a few small balance issues, she embodies that mid-game switch from damage to utility that many Warframes have.

I'm not sure what your build is, but saying that Fireball loses relevance at Level 10 is ridciulous. As a one-handed, cheap-and-spammable first skill, it's comparable to the other abilities like it (Shock, Freeze, etc.). It may not be a killer into higher levels, but its damage remains relevant against light-armored targets well into Level 30. Furthermore, its damage can be multiplied by her 2, which can't be said of other frames. As far as use, I like it in dedicated melee setup. In early levels it's great for killing/damaging faraway foes, and in later levels it's nice for CC-ing enemies with a Heat proc until I can close the gap (it also makes Healing Return immediately effective).

When you say she has "not enough CC", what are you expecting? She's a fire mage character. Fire by itself doesn't exactly lock down enemies. If you want CC (like I do, since I play Ember melee), her augments are pretty good for that. I usually use WoF's augment to continually drop enemy focus.

As for that World on Fire, I feel it's fine for the set-and-forget damage that it is, with some exception. I don't think it needs a change of how it works or what it does. It's fire damage, all around her. As long as it's not doing all the killing for me, it's fun to use. If it should be altered, it should be in how much it does, because how much it does is a bit imbalanced. The way we can upgrade it lets us cheese early levels, but its damage is poor at high levels. A simple solution would be to lower WoF's base damage but add percent-Health damage. This would lessen Ember's tendency to squash lower enemies and increase her impact on high-level ones.

In regard to Ember's lack of efficacy versus Armor, Ember (and Heat in general) has always been poor against it, and that's no accident. Warframes have to have weaknesses in places in order to make a player's choice of frame mean more than just preference. Against Armor there are many tools available, many usable alongside Ember herself.

There's my two credits. I like Ember, and beyond a simple fix to WoF's damage balance I think her simple design is in no need of improvement.

[DatDarkOne]

12 hours ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

Yeah see I don't count that As defensive, more like utility, because it boosts her damage output. Its not really radial blind good in terms of stunning. 

Actually it does compare very well.  At least while I've been using it and got the Flash Accelerant augment.  I like using Flash Accelerant more than her other powers for CC.  I haven't had any teammates complain yet.  :D   I use a high power strength/efficiency build with a few good survival mods.  Only using WoF when higher level enemies appear or when the $#!* hit the fan.  

[phoenix1992]

Hey another weekly Ember topic.

Let's see if we can check up the marks :

1. Ember is used only for low levels - check.
2. Underestimating that 3/4 of the augments do CC - check.
3. Bash on WoF - check.

Tell you what OP, Ok, I get it - it does look like Ember is your DPS frame on first view - perfectly normal assumption. But playing Ember for WoF and not playing around with Accelerant, CO and Firequake is your own personal style. But please - do you realize why Nudis and Ocvatia (because you gave them as examples) have more uptime in sorties than Ember?

PS: Ember does not have a passive. She has a template that was somehow forgotten.

Edited September 16, 2017 by phoenix1992

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Hey another weekly Ember topic.

Let's see if we can check up the marks :

1. Ember is used only for low levels - check.
2. Underestimating that 3/4 of the augments do CC - check.
3. Bash on WoF - check.

Tell you what OP, Ok, I get it - it does look like Ember is your DPS frame on first view - perfectly normal assumption. But playing Ember for WoF and not playing around with Accelerant, CO and Firequake is your own personal style. But please - do you realize while Nudis and Ocvatia (because you gave them as examples) have more uptime in sorties than Ember?

PS: Ember does not have a passive. She has a template that was somehow forgotten.

You missed one checkmark:

 

"Hey, Nidus' abilities are interesting, so Ember should be reworked into a Nidus clone who has to build stacks so her powers work at high levels, and has to stay in one place building her little power fortress, just like Nidus!"

 

I swear to Christ, I've said it before and I'm gonna keep saying it:

 Nidus is the most toxic piece of mechanics in the entire game, purely because of how his kit has trained players to think about Warframe abilities. These days, any time a player makes a suggestion for a 'frame, the default suggestion is to make them into a Nidus-clone.

Edited September 16, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Andaius]

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

I'm not saying she's weak. With the right mods she can be a powerhouse. What I am saying though is that these warframes that have been getting a rework have had their abilities tweaked to where they work with one another. Ember needs something like that , and some other warframes too. I'm not asking for a rework where you turn a bad warframe into a good one, I'm asking for a good warframe to be turned into an AMAZING one. Like nidus level good

She's been reworked twice already IIRC.

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You missed one checkmark:

 

"Hey, Nidus' abilities are interesting, so Ember should be reworked into a Nidus clone who has to build stacks so her powers work at high levels, and has to stay in one place building her little power fortress, just like Nidus!"

 

I swear to Christ, I've said it before and I'm gonna keep saying it:

 Nidus is the most toxic piece of mechanics in the entire game, purely because of how his kit has trained players to think about Warframe abilities. These days, any time a player makes a suggestion for a 'frame, the default suggestion is to make them into a Nidus-clone.

 

Yeah it's been all over now. Stack building seems to be the new "cool thing" now.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Andaius

[Jicematoro]

Don't mind me, just shamelessly reposting this before the conversation even picks up, because we all know it's gonna happen:

 

On 7/9/2017 at 1:20 PM, Jicematoro said:

The major problem with this thread is that the discussion is a complete conflict of rights.

• First Side claims that Ember ruins the fun of low level missions. They feel entitled to get kills on Public missions and despite having the means to avoid the nuisance, they keep running pubs with Randoms and come to complain in the forums. They claim a rework is needed to fix this.
• Second Side reminds everyone that Ember is everything but Broken, how quickly her DPS falls as the numbers rise and has a reasonable concern for the idea of a rework. This side is a little more complex to tackle, since the people defending Ember, might indeed play her, but aren't guaranteed to be "Pub WOF Embers". That said this side is completely disregarding the concern of the other side and shruging it off because in Low Levels, "everything is Broken" (Which I admit, I heavily agree with)

If we compress the 2 sides to their most basic, we get:

• First Side:
  • Ember is broken on low levels.
  • It's unfair that we can't get kills.
  • Rework Ember so she's not as much of a "Pub Stomper".
  • People have the right to play the way they want and the Embers should adapt to the play style of the Non-Embers.
• Second Side:
  • Everything is Broken in low levels.
  • You'd get more kills if you were to actually try.
  • Ember is fine and a Rework would ruin her.
  • People have the right to play Ember on pubs, if you have problem with random Team compositions, you shouldn't be playing on a Pub.

So basically, it's a "What I want" vs "What you want" situation, and it's clear we've reached a wall here.

If you want my 2 cents:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think the first side is being very much unfair with the Ember players. Why?

1. A Rework does not guarantee the Ember won't just go and steal all the kills again, An agile Ember can just do like a Mesa and use her agility to get in a good position and nuke sectors of the map faster than you can shoot. Low levels aren't balanced around mid to end game content, so unless an EXTREMELY DRASTIC REWORK takes place, you won't see the numbers fall off.
   • If they do fall off, they might not do so for more than 10%.
   • Players will just switch to Equinox instead. Or Saryn. Or Mesa. Or Mirage. Or Mag (yes, even freaking Mag). Or AoE Weapons, and the list goes On and On.
2. If you're picky with Team Compositions you shouldn't go around in Pubs.
3. The Embers are not holding you hostage, you can leave at any time.
4. You can always ask the Ember to turn off WoF for a while, if the Ember refuses, Let's be honest, you joined a Pub, you shouldn't join a pub if you're not prepared to deal with rude people/A******s.

Or in less words, you can avoid playing with the Embers, but instead you try to make them all (including the nice Embers that don't even play Pubs) pay. I am not denying that Pub Embers aren't at least rude to a degree, but your rights don't outweight theirs and viceversa, the one who has a problem here is you, do something about it or get used to it.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Jicematoro

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

Don't mind me, just shamelessly reposting this:

 

On 9/7/2017 at 8:20 PM, Jicematoro said:

Still not a fun killer post.
Pls don't go there, OP.

Edited September 16, 2017 by phoenix1992
*refreshing*

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Jicematoro said:

Don't mind me, just shamelessly reposting this:

 

 

Good call on reposting that.  It most definitely fits this and needed to be shown again.  And every other time a new Ember post like this appears.  :D

[Jicematoro]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

While this is a repost of very well defined post, OP has not accused Ember of Fun killer. It is a lot more of generic no research or knowledge about mechanics.
And demanding changes ofc.

Yeah, I edited the post to clarify my reasons. Refresh the page!

[(XBOX)blazephoenix118]

30 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You missed one checkmark:

 

"Hey, Nidus' abilities are interesting, so Ember should be reworked into a Nidus clone who has to build stacks so her powers work at high levels, and has to stay in one place building her little power fortress, just like Nidus!"

 

I swear to Christ, I've said it before and I'm gonna keep saying it:

 Nidus is the most toxic piece of mechanics in the entire game, purely because of how his kit has trained players to think about Warframe abilities. These days, any time a player makes a suggestion for a 'frame, the default suggestion is to make them into a Nidus-clone.

That's not what I'm saying should happen to ember. Look at the changes they made to Oberon and hydroid and how there just way better now. Thats what I'm asking for. The stacking option was just a thought. Maybe it doesn't stack damage, But maybe energy return instead. Since focus is about to not be a thing anymore, you'd might want to consider something like that

[Jicematoro]

18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)blazephoenix118 said:

That's not what I'm saying should happen to ember. Look at the changes they made to Oberon and hydroid and how there just way better now. Thats what I'm asking for. The stacking option was just a thought. Maybe it doesn't stack damage, But maybe energy return instead. Since focus is about to not be a thing anymore, you'd might want to consider something like that

Hydroid is a slow moving puddle with little to nothing going on for it (apart from the brutal damage he makes after A LOT of time), Oberon is arguably worse now, Yeah, not very encouraging.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Jicematoro