Should passive energy regeneration be a norm for our Warframes? (Like Archwing)

[Marvelous_A]

Yes it should. Energy orb is RNG-based, and I never trust RNG. Energy pads is clunky to use, ask yourself, do you use health pad every time you get hurt badly? Is health orb enough for you? I never see somebody does that. It takes too long and the cost is high in long term.

[Hemmo67]

Just now, Marvelous_A said:

Yes it should. Energy orb is RNG-based, and I never trust RNG. Energy pads is clunky to use, ask yourself, do you use health pad every time you get hurt badly? Is health orb enough for you? I never see somebody does that. It takes too long and the cost is high in long term.

if i play frame with no healing or i only brought ogris yes i use health pizzas

secondly i always always pickup energy orbs (i use arcane victory so don't u think i use energize)

and i balance the orbs by not picking them when i have only lost 1 energy but make most of them

[RX-3DR]

8 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Yes it should. Energy orb is RNG-based, and I never trust RNG. Energy pads is clunky to use, ask yourself, do you use health pad every time you get hurt badly? Is health orb enough for you? I never see somebody does that. It takes too long and the cost is high in long term.

Ammo is RNG based too and ammo pads are just as clunky to use so I forward the idea of passive ammo regen.

I drop a lot of health pads to counteract 60 damage bleed procs every once in awhile so we should also get passive Health regen! Rejuvenation is too slow, we need a passive Health regen of 5H/s.

P.S. Health Orbs only drop from containers and a few other sources. Last I checked which is a few hours ago, Energy Orbs still drop from killing regular enemies.

[Marvelous_A]

5 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

if i play frame with no healing or i only brought ogris yes i use health pizzas

secondly i always always pickup energy orbs (i use arcane victory so don't u think i use energize)

and i balance the orbs by not picking them when i have only lost 1 energy but make most of them

You have alternative for health. Yes I can use health pads. Can they take out every other alternatives because I have health pads? No.

Yeah you can use 10 energy pads every mission for a energy hungry frame. You have resources. For new players? Well good luck for them having to farm polymer bundles every few games. Or good luck getting your energy back every time Quick Thinking takes effect on a caster frame. Well if you survive coz you have no energy to cast any abilities after that. Or good luck taking your time to think which orb you should pick up when a bunch of lvl 100 mobs shooting at you.

[Radagosh]

No, and i hope energy overflow and shadow step don't return in form of arcanes. If you really want unlimited energy get yourself an arcane energize set, if you don't wanna pay 5k plat or put in the effort to do JV then you don't need it. Unlimited Energy is a stupid idea, just like invulnerability from eternal stealth is.

[Marvelous_A]

4 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

Ammo is RNG based too and ammo pads are just as clunky to use so I forward the idea of passive ammo regen.

I drop a lot of health pads to counteract 60 damage bleed procs every once in awhile so we should also get passive Health regen! Rejuvenation is too slow, we need a passive Health regen of 5H/s.

P.S. Health Orbs only drop from containers and a few other sources. Last I checked which is a few hours ago, Energy Orbs still drop from killing regular enemies.

Most weapons have surplus ammo (a lot more than they need). Good luck trying to use Boar or Braton without a carrier or ammo mutation with you in high level mission. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i do support the idea of universal energy regen.

i'd rather consistently rely on my own tactical (non-)usage of skills than rng blue ball drops. i think even from a lore perspective the latter is kinda dubious.

but only as part of a thorough energy system rework, which would furthermore include limiting pizzas per mission, nerfing EV and revising skill costs across the board among other things. said energy regen should also be influenceable by energy mods like streamline and fleeting expertise instead of skill costs.

regen yay / skill spam nay.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[fatpig84]

50 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

You have alternative for health. Yes I can use health pads. Can they take out every other alternatives because I have health pads? No.

Yeah you can use 10 energy pads every mission for a energy hungry frame. You have resources. For new players? Well good luck for them having to farm polymer bundles every few games. Or good luck getting your energy back every time Quick Thinking takes effect on a caster frame. Well if you survive coz you have no energy to cast any abilities after that. Or good luck taking your time to think which orb you should pick up when a bunch of lvl 100 mobs shooting at you.

Dying is part and parcel of the game.
But if you managed to die with zero energy, it is really your own fault.
I mean  if you are indeed caught in that situation surrounded by 5 level 100 bombards, 7 Heavy gunners and 5 Corrupted Nullfiers, you probably won't last the 6 seconds either needed for EO to power up your 4. So basically no difference.

Unless you went off a Eximus sortie or got swiped by an ancient (hey Magnetic procs need a fix, but this is not the topic).
And P.S new players should not be in sorties facing level 100+ mooks.

 

As for the topic. I say buff Energy siphon instead.
It has being cast on the way side since Zenurik was so strong.
But I support the idea of the Warframe starting with a full amount of energy, just like ammo and health.

So don't spend it flippantly and let players budget it accordingly. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by fatpig84

[kasalaba]

No. There is a thing called energy economy (with mods and skills etc) that is based around the fact that energy is precious, but that would be null and void since you would be able to just wait and have energy.

As Orokin legend Rihanna said in the old days if you want that energy, you got to work work work work work.

[RX-3DR]

18 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Most weapons have surplus ammo (a lot more than they need). Good luck trying to use Boar or Braton without a carrier or ammo mutation with you in high level mission. 

That's exactly why we need passive ammo regen for everything! It will improve diversity of builds because people can use Fire Rate Gorgons in high level content. Ammo mutation is not enough, we need to have passive ammo regen. It's stupid that we have to make our builds to compare fire rate and ammo efficiency. It is making it very difficult for us to use low ammo efficiency weapons since we need to have all our slots for weapons filled with damage mods and fire rate mods for maximum DPS. Without ammo regen, the game is too difficult to play since using Abilities or another weapon is too difficult and it severely limits my playstyle.

[Marvelous_A]

21 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

That's exactly why we need passive ammo regen for everything! It will improve diversity of builds because people can use Fire Rate Gorgons in high level content. Ammo mutation is not enough, we need to have passive ammo regen. It's stupid that we have to make our builds to compare fire rate and ammo efficiency. It is making it very difficult for us to use low ammo efficiency weapons since we need to have all our slots for weapons filled with damage mods and fire rate mods for maximum DPS. Without ammo regen, the game is too difficult to play since using Abilities or another weapon is too difficult and it severely limits my playstyle.

In a sense you're right. But for ammo it's another story, you have full ammo when the game start, ammo has much higher drop chance, most weapons have more than enough ammo, there is no proc which will take away all your ammo in an instant, and you have 2 weapons to switch. You can increase the max ammo for few weapons rather than giving passive ammo regen. I know you're trying to make sense by applying the case of ammo on energy, well they're not the same. Or to make it clear, I know you desperately want to make clever point, but really they're completely different stories.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[Recel]

The game is not balanced well enough for it. Since how much a power costs and how well it works in actual gameplay is wildly different with each ability and frame, some frames would benefit greatly from energy regeneration since they are not that powerful and need to burn through a lot of energy to work, while it would exaggerate the power of those frames who have rather cheap and amazing powers they can spam or only need to cast rarely.

Overall the only thing a passive energy regeneration would achieve is further imbalance frames. It would help a few of them, a few wouldn't benefit from it at all, while other warframes power would suddenly just rocket up.

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, Marvelous_A said:

In a sense you're right. But for ammo it's another story, you have full ammo when the game start, ammo has much higher drop chance, most weapons have more than enough ammo, there is no proc which will take away all your ammo in an instant, and you have 2 weapons to switch. You can increase the max ammo for few weapons rather than giving passive ammo regen. I know you're trying to make sense by applying the case of ammo on energy, well they're not the same. Or to make it clear, they're completely different stories.

There are so many ammo drops and I can only use Rifle ammo and they are only dropped by enemies and sometimes containers, there's no other way to get more ammo. Ammo Restores are too expensive to be reliable. Even with increased max ammo, there is not enough ammo to last the entire mission because I need to fire it at full-auto at all times. Why should I have to swap to another weapon? I should be allowed to play the game in whatever style I want and the game should adjust. If it doesn't, then it's just limiting play styles by not allowing you to use nothing but Gorgon modded for DPS. We need to have passive ammo regen to compensate for this problem, there is no other solution!

[13QZXXTTX]

Note: I am getting a bit biter, taking break.

@LokiTheCondom DE did NERF(S) "Trinity", to "encourage Plays of other Support/Healer".     (Bless Range? 50m,Seem like year ago.)

That is NOT a very good reason to Nerf, without UN-BALANCE some thing (Trinity).

NOW you telling me, DE COULD have BUFF even "Energy Siphon" to compensate, what most WarFrames use, Energy.

 

I just realized: This is the LONGEST (year+) rework) and DE is VERY CLOSE to (nerf everything, and just actually Play-Worthy). (Might take longer, as NEW WarFrame would have to be more Awesomeness).

I can not tell you how MUCH SALTS, and the VERY reason why Players Hiatus (Vacations) happen.

 

DIGITAL EXTREME, don't hurt yourself + Community. (Self-Damage is bad, a NO NO).

 

4 hours ago, DeadScream said:

It would be a lot of work but would add more depth and personality to each warframe imho

You forgot : Also consume many (REWORKS) TIME. On the Bright Side, DE accept/talk/implement Feedbacks!

 

 

[fatpig84]

1 minute ago, DesFrSpace said:

Note: I am getting a bit biter, taking break.

@LokiTheCondom DE did NERF(S) "Trinity", to "encourage Plays of other Support/Healer".     (Bless Range? 50m,Seem like year ago.)

 

The best Trinity players maxed out Vazarin Disciplined Approach instead of complaining.
Yes gaining a near extra 20m helps a ton.

[Marvelous_A]

9 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

There are so many ammo drops and I can only use Rifle ammo and they are only dropped by enemies and sometimes containers, there's no other way to get more ammo. Ammo Restores are too expensive to be reliable. Even with increased max ammo, there is not enough ammo to last the entire mission because I need to fire it at full-auto at all times. Why should I have to swap to another weapon? I should be allowed to play the game in whatever style I want and the game should adjust. If it doesn't, then it's just limiting play styles by not allowing you to use nothing but Gorgon modded for DPS. We need to have passive ammo regen to compensate for this problem, there is no other solution!

So you're pulling the annoying kid's trick? You can insist of firing your automatic weapon for the whole mission for all I care. Well on top of that I will make the max ammo 120 for 90% of weapons so you hardly have enough for the first 2 rounds in a high level defense mission even with ammo drop. And you only have 2 magazines for each weapon at start, and now ammo drop chance will be the same as energy orb. Maybe you will consider a ammo regen then.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[phoenix1992]

Wow, people got spoiled as hell.

What is with the aim to make the game more CoD style? Ammo regen, Health regen, Energy regen - if you wanted to, you can achieve that via the usage of mods or pads. But you didn't. You want things for free without paying upfront in any way. 

I am sorry to say it towards many players in 2017 Warframe, but it is about time to 

 

Think and prepare for encounters, don't be a button masher.

[Misgenesis]

Absolutely not. Current energy economy is a joke thats lead to power spam which trivializes gameplay completely. Whole system needs a bigger look anyway.

I wouldnt be opposed to something like a 0.5/s regen to fill in time between orbs and whatnot.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Misgenesis

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

So you're pulling the annoying kid's trick? You can insist of firing your automatic weapon for the whole mission for all I care. Well on top of that I will make the max ammo 120 for 90% of weapons so you hardly have enough for the first 2 rounds in a high level defense mission even with ammo drop. And you only have 2 magazines for each weapon at start, and now ammo drop chance will be the same as energy orb. Maybe you will consider a ammo regen then.

Well, there's your answer there for why there's no need for additional passive Energy regen. You are entirely exaggerating the issue in order to pretend that energy is this magical replacement for all your weapons. It is not. Both are limited resources that you're supposed to manage properly. They serve different functions and their management are different. They are not meant to substitute each other. If you went into a mission with only high fire-rate weapons, whether is it one or two weapons, you will be starved for ammo. If you go into a mission with the express purpose of ignoring your weapons, you will be starved for energy.

You bring up the Braton and Boar which are weapons with poor ammo efficiency. Your solution is Ammo Mutation and Max Ammo mods. Some Warframes are more power hungry than others, why must the solution suddenly be passive Energy regen? There is Power Efficiency and Max Energy that can help with energy management. Some weapons will always have an ammo problem, some frames will always have an energy problem.

You mentioned earlier that we have 2 weapons. Why is this not a consideration? Is it not possible to equip weapons and use Abilities at the same time? The point I made is simple, I gave an example of a wasteful style of ammo management and your solution is to not be over-reliant on that unsustainable method. Can this not be the case with energy and Abilities? The immediate go to solution for poor energy management is a passive system that promotes laziness but the solution for poor ammo management is trigger discipline and making the appropriate preparations.

You bring up Energy drop as an issue. There are other ways of getting Energy. Having additional mod capacity gives you additional starting Energy. You can drop a single Energy Pad at the start to top up that amount. Containers can provide 50 Energy pickups. Ultimately, they are different resources that run on different rates for different purposes. They were never meant to be equal in consumption, efficiency and effect. Energy Drops seems to be at about 10 ~ 20%, the problem is not as significant as you make it out to be.

Most weapons have more than enough ammo brings up the point of efficiency, something which other people have no issues managing on the same Warframe. If other people are capable of finding a way to improve their energy management, why is it that others are making it seem like the end of the world? Isn't that indicative of a problem with how people are using their Abilities rather than Abilities costing too much? A Soma Prime can easily run out of ammo if you're firing it at full-auto and just spraying it in the general direction of an enemy. Another person can use that same Soma Prime, make a few good headshots in a burst and have no problems with ammo. Why is it a universal issue for Warframes instead?

On the topic of low Max Ammo, there are weapons such as the Euphona and Angstrum that have extremely limited ammo pools. The way you overcome them is by making every shot matter. You don't use 1/2 of your ammo capacity to kill 5 Grineer Troopers by spraying and mashing shots around the target. There is no need to spend 50 energy to kill a single Grineer Trooper if you can just shoot him in the head once or twice with whatever weapon you're carrying along unless you're at a point where you've completed neglected all your weapons in favor of being entirely reliant on using abilities, in which case, you're at fault.

On the subject of Magnetic proc. Personally, I think it's fine the way it is, it's meant to punish Energy and Shield focused frames. People have problems with 120 damage Bleed or Toxin procs from Eviscerators and Ancients and Rejuvenation is never enough to protect you from that. You are supposed adapt to the situation. Be more careful with Ancients around or when you're moving around Magnetic Clouds. However, people don't seem to be placing a consistent and sensible effort in suggesting a reduction their Energy Drain to a slow rate or a reduction in the amount loss. Instead, it is about passive Energy Regeneration which is not effective in that situation anyways.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Flandyrll

[Marvelous_A]

45 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

-snip-

It's more like people are exaggerating EO to be the very root cause of abilitiy spamming in this game. No. While it's true that it makes ability having virtually 0 cost, the abilities spamming is always a problem even before focus even exists. This game is the battle between Tenno cheese and enemy cheese. The difference is we used to have a Trinity in every squad now we can play whoever the hell we want instead of Trin-locked. I don't think most of us like being the Trin in the team anyway.

If you ever actually use an energy-hungry build or using a caster frame, you come to know 4/s energy restore doesn't really makes a difference most of the time, except when you lost all your energy out of certain reason, e.g QT or magnetic proc. You won't believe how many times it saves my a$$, in high level mission, few stray bullets is more than enough to take all health, shield and energy (coz QT) of your caster frame, without EO I can't even get my health back with Life Strike, or just cast something to try to get out of the tough situation as a last effort. For weapons, yes we have mutation and max ammo mod, what about frames? You know Flow IS A MUST-HAVE UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES simply because most frames don't even have enough energy pool by default, unlike ammo. And we don't have Carrier for energy, which basically giving you infinite ammo without any drawback. So you understand why they are totally different stories? We have far fewer alternatives for energy. You know how bad is the default energy cost-to-energy pool ratio? Nova Prime has 262 energy at lvl 30. And her MP cost 100. So at best she can cast 2 times at max energy. Fking 2 times at max level, for a warframe who has the second-highest energy pool. With max efficiency she can cast 10 times, but bear in mind MP is an ability which needs continuously refreshing to apply on newly spawned enemies. Now the problem is she don't even have full energy at start. And she is a better one coz she doesn't really need to cast any other abilities. And how are you going to survive in sortie level of mission without MP? She is glass, but not a cannon, she is just a very good support frame. Is it doable? Definitely yes, that's what I did before I have EO. Is it enjoyable to do? Maybe, but not for me, I don't like flying here and there like an ADHD kid desperately looking for an energy orb from a dead enemy.

TBH this passive ain't even do sh1t when you get in really bad situation, it's more of something to save your effort of wasting an energy pad and 40s at the start of a mission, and a fail-safe when RNG sh1ts on you by not giving any energy orbs from mobs and crates. I suspect EO and Shadow Step will definitely get a nerf at the very moment when they were added in this game. Honestly, DE has a good reason to do so. My most used frame is EB Excal, I don't even really get the benefits from it, but since I don't wanna be a Trin for my squad, I'd rather keep this EO for an EZier life.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[RX-3DR]

10 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

It's more like people are exaggerating EO to be the very root cause of abilitiy spamming in this game. No. While it's true that it makes ability having virtually 0 cost, the abilities spamming is always a problem even before focus even exists. This game is the battle between Tenno cheese and enemy cheese. The difference is we used to have a Trinity in every squad now we can play whoever the hell we want instead of Trin-locked. I don't think most of us like being the Trin in the team anyway. If you ever actually use a energy-hungry build or using a caster frame, you come to know 4/s energy restore doesn't really makes a difference most of the time, except when you lost all your energy out of certain reason, e.g QT or magnetic proc. You won't believe how many times it saves my a$$, in high level mission, few stray bullets is more than enough to take all health, shield and energy (coz QT) of your caster frame, without EO I can't even get my health back with Life Strike, or just cast something to try to get out of the tough situation as a last effort. For weapons, yes we have mutation and max ammo mod, what about frames? You know Flow IS A MUST-HAVE UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES simply because most frames don't even have enough energy pool by default, unlike ammo. And we don't have Carrier for energy, which basically giving you infinite ammo without any drawback. So you understand why they are totally stories? We have far fewer alternatives for energy. TBH this passive ain't even do sh1t when you get in really bad situation, it's more of something to save your effort of wasting an energy pad and 40s at the start of a mission, and a fail-safe when RNG sh1ts on you by not giving any energy orbs from mobs and crates. I suspect EO and Shadow Step will definitely get a nerf at the very moment when they were added in this game. Honestly, DE has a good reason to do so. My most used frame is EB Excal, I don't even really get the benefits from it, but since I don't wanna be a Trin for my squad, I'd rather keep this EO for an EZier life.

So your opinion on the subject is that since we're already falling off a cliff, we might else well just set ourselves on fire. You say it removes an entire aspect of the game, it's redundant and it's rarely useful in very specific situations, it's a game changer that saves you life, then say it's nothing more of a minor convenience. But somehow, you still think it should be re-implemented into the game?

Personally, I would prefer more constructive and active ideas to providing solutions to those who are seeking ways around a problem rather than throwing in a poorly thought out solution to an exaggerated problem that no one asked for, only to have everyone become reliant on a placeholder. There are possibilities for other means of recovering energy through unique mods. They don't have to require you to spend 5 days grinding Focus but instead, require a smart build to suit your range and effective use. As previously mentioned, there are other areas not fully utilized for caster frames and just off the top of my head, Glaives could fill in that role too by giving you energy for each enemy hit when thrown. Simple mods such as that provide small bonuses but can be used often and in combination with others(Glaive throw + Pistol Crit for energy would be such an example for longer distance ways to address the problem). If the problem is that you have to stop your Soundquake to actually play the game, then honestly, the problem is that you are demanding the game to suit you.

However, I have already mentioned that guns and abilities serves different purpose and even a Caster frame is not designed to ignore their weapons. The constant comparison of how abilities must become as reliable and efficient as guns while still maintaining their large radius and ease of use is asking a boat to be able to move as fast as a car on land.

On the problem of power spamming. The problem is that implementing a way to penalized over reliance and outright spamming on abilities is very difficult to achieve without affecting the standard player. Cooldown times, diminishing returns or overuse penalties would immediately curb the issue but what happens then when a person is caught in a bad situation and is suddenly penalized or outright prevented from using his abilities. If I tried to run in to help someone during a Void Fissure, I hit Rhino Stomp to buy myself time and another group immediately spawns around me with a Bombard and a Heavy Gunner. With any of the systems, you're now being put from a bad situation to a worse one simply because some other guy on the other side of the world realized that he can trivialize content with specific set ups. Providing more ease to do this only makes the situation worse. Right now, you're seeing that exact effect, people have become so used to it that it is very difficult to make any change without upsetting a vocal group.

People have brought up ideas such as increasing the amount of enemies to put players under more pressure but that only puts more focus into spamming abilities to clear out huge chunks of enemies. Nullifiers were supposed to help but they ended up only really complicating the issue in a frustrating way, acting as a hard counter to a lot of things. You can see them trying to test the waters with the Operators and their interaction with certain enemies such as Sentients and Kuva Guardians which are designed to require more input to deal with. Difficulty is a cycle where if there are more ways to trivialize content, things will have to be adjusted to match that, which in turn, creates more want to cheat the game.

 

Do I blame DE for letting it get to this point? Not really. At an earlier point, it's hard to have foreseen all these issues coming up and a lot of their actions have relation to what is going on at the time. In the case of the Focus tree and allowing this problem to fester on with EO, I've had always wondered why haven't they done anything for such a long time and it was only until after they mentioned that it they were looking to place more value on the Operators that I realized that the Focus system was meant to be dedicated towards the Operator. It's only until after the Operator update that they've created an opportunity to rework the Focus system without turning it into a tacked on passive. I don't like it but it is a better direction than coming up with more passives that skews gameplay for older players. The only thing that DE disappointed me on is that they should have rolled out a small update to the Focus tree to keep everything more inline rather than allow people to get more and more comfortable with a broken system

We should have left behind all Energy Regeneration at Energy Siphon and move towards more active methods of getting energy a long time ago. All EO did is create a culture of ignoring energy management.

[Marvelous_A]

7 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

-Snip-

Yes it's useful in certain situation, like saving my life, but all it does is transforming a must-have Trin into a passive, so, it doesn't change much other than putting a more useful teammate to your team instead of another Trin, while giving you the benefits of a Trin can give you. It's kind of a game changer, but also doesn't change much coz you always have it, before it even came out. This energy management thing is long dead the moment we got EV, or perhaps the moment we can mod for 175% energy efficiency. EO is a bad solution to a bad situation, but it works and it's simple, I would choose EO over a Trinity anytime, it's painful to look for an EV for every possible mission for me, or to any other player who have to go EV while they could have played a more interesting role instead of spamming EV. After they take out EO, you think they will take a look in this energy management thingy? Or ability spamming? Definitely not I'll tell you, DE has gone too far on this, the whole Warframe game mechanics is built around excessive ability use. Without a proper solution to the problem, sorry I would rather stick with the bandaid. At least it works.

I'm all for being creative, but things ain't that simple, you can't just "go creative" and everything will work out for you. Energy restore on throwing glaives? Sounds neat and then how about those players who don't go Glaive? Not to mention Glaives are generally weak weapons to start with (it needs 2 more mods than usual melee weapons to be useful and you're asking for one more slot). Pistol crit? What about non-crit pistols and pistols with great spread? Even you managed to make a mod for all-kinds of pistols - you ended up making it too strong and being a compulsory mod (which DE has been avoiding to make anymore) or too weak to be actually useful (hence another redundant mod).

[RX-3DR]

4 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Yes it's useful in certain situation, like saving my life, but all it does is transforming a must-have Trin into a passive, so, it doesn't change much other than putting a more useful teammate to your team instead of another Trin, while giving you the benefits of a Trin can give you. It's kind of a game changer, but also doesn't change much coz you always have it, before it even came out. This energy management thing is long dead the moment we got EV, or perhaps the moment we can mod for 175% energy efficiency. EO is a bad solution to a bad situation, but it works and it's simple, I would choose EO over a Trinity anytime, it's painful to look for an EV for every possible mission for me, or to any other player who have to go EV while they could have played a more interesting role instead of spamming EV. After they take out EO, you think they will take a look in this energy management thingy? Or ability spamming? Definitely not I'll tell you, DE has gone too far on this, the whole Warframe game mechanics is built around excessive ability use. Without a proper solution to the problem, sorry I would rather stick with the bandaid. At least it works.

I'm all for being creative, but things ain't that simple, you can't just "go creative" and everything will work out for you. Energy restore on throwing glaives? Sounds neat and then how about those players who don't go Glaive? Not to mention Glaives are generally weak weapons to start with (it needs 2 more mods than usual melee weapons to be useful and you're asking for one more slot). Pistol crit? What about non-crit pistols and pistols with great spread? Even you managed to make a mod for all-kinds of pistols - you ended up making it too strong and being a compulsory mod (which DE has been avoiding to make anymore) or too weak to be actually useful (hence another redundant mod).

The whole point is to create solutions to problems that people are looking to solve rather than throwing a blanket over the entire situation. Sticking to bandaids don't solve the underlying issue and only makes it harder to acknowledge and address the issue. The fact that it removes the entire necessity of a role to support an unsustainable build is exactly why it needs to be looked at. I'm not a fan of the Corrupted Warframe mods, especially with the value you get out of them, but they come with a penalty at least. Having a Trinity to babysit is taking up a player slot. EO on the other hand, stops you from doing what? Breaking the game harder or being able to save yourself 3 seconds when reviving someone? If it comes back as an automatic passive, then there's no cost associated anymore. If DE allows this problem to continue growing, the overreactions are just going to get worse anytime anyone brings it up.

On the concept of more reliable and active means of recovering energy, they are solutions to problems that people can look for. They lose out one slot on their weapon, but it allows them more freedom in their use of energy. If they don't want to use it, then it is entirely on their own decision. Apologies on a mistake earlier, I meant Pistol weakpoint. We already have weird things like Hydraulic Crosshair and the whole slew of awkward mods left from the Stalker Acolytes, adding one or two more for each weapon type isn't going to kill the game. They're not mandatory and more supplementary to certain builds. A lot of people would probably not find a use for them but for those who prefer a more dedicated support role can benefit from it without having to rely on Energy pads or support from another frame.

It is significantly easier to balance those than to blanket over a 4E/s that requires no input. In fact, it does allow a significantly higher degree of freedom because these are triggered effects, which puts more focus on effective use. I would be okay if you recovered 15 Energy over a period of 5 seconds if it was triggered on a condition to match the value but if you said you wanted 3E/s just because you want it, then that sounds really silly in comparison, doesn't it? What is the worst situation if you made conditional energy regeneration? Right now, we're already seeing the worst and more of passive energy regeneration where a lot of Abilities are essentially free with no input and people refusing to acknowledge that it is a problem.

You complain about how the game has been pushing towards just spamming abilities. I present to you a very viable alternative that removes the lazy play of spamming a single ability in the middle of the crowd but you would rather stick to the easy solution that puts more incentive into poor gameplay input. You just want the easy way out. If you ignore Power Efficiency, the problem is is you. If you ignore alternate means of sustaining that use, then problem is you. If a new solution is presented and the only price you pay is a single mod slot and to actually play the game, suddenly weapons matter a really big deal to Caster Frames that previously, needed more ways to not use their weapons.

If we're removing energy management as part of the game, honestly, we might else well just remove everything else while we're at it by giving 10 health and ammo per second. The game is already in a bad state so we might else well just get DE to let us cheat out more, right?

[TrickshotMcGee]

1 hour ago, Flandyrll said:

We should have left behind all Energy Regeneration at Energy Siphon and move towards more active methods of getting energy a long time ago. All EO did is create a culture of ignoring energy management.

As much as I'd like to agree that doing away with EO fixes the problem of power spam, I can't. Because it simply doesn't. 

Lack of the regeneration won't make people any more conscious of their limited energy, they're simply going to swap to another form of regaining it. As an avid user of the Unairu school and an exclusively solo player, I burn through a number of pizzas pretty regularly.

 

The problem with your argument, and the reason people love EO so much, wasn't because of some desire to just wipe everything off the face of the universe all the time. 

It's because powers are fun. Without abilities, we're like a worse Borderlands with 10x the edgelords and a lot fewer funny characters (read: we have exactly one, that being Darvo). People don't play warframe for the intelligent gunplay, or smart use of tactics. We get new people because f*cking explosions and sh*t. There's not a new player I've met who didn't love the feeling of wiping a crowd with EB, or using Crush on a group of enemies and seeing them all crumble to the ground in a mass of limbs and loot. Abilities are insanely satisfying, and are the biggest part of what makes Warframe unique from other games. Limiting those would help balance out our power, of course, but I feel that entirely removing it all except for Energy Siphon (bandaid mod if ever I saw one) is probably a bad idea.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think infinite energy all the time is a good thing. I am 100% for EO being nerfed. Outright removed, even, and no complaints from me. But - objectively speaking - it wasn't entirely bad for how Warframe felt, as far as playing the game goes. No doubt I'm going to miss my Fire Fright build Ember with massive walls of fire all the time, but it was pretty wasteful so I understand it going away.

Of course I get that people all have different ideas of how Warframe should be. I personally feel that some small energy regen (like 2 per second max) would be fitting, being that our Operators are practically wellsprings of magical energy and shouldn't technically run out in the first place (but game balance is a thing, so I more than understand and agree about it being limited). However, forcing players to play a very specific way to regain energy is just as bad IMO. You mentioned energy restored by hitting enemies with Glaives. I really dislike Glaives, so if that were one of the few ways to regain it, that would irk me some great deal. What's worse is that it makes some mods absolutely mandatory again, particularly for some energy-hungry Warframes (lookin at you, Chroma). I always felt that having mandatory mods was kind of silly, and I am loathe to just up and say "well, everyone can suck it up or just not use powers more than 3-4 times". 

Energy orbs are not a reliable source of energy. In fact, they're a bit uncommon for me. Rarely see them outside of pickpocketing with Ivara, Desecrating, or using Pilfering Swarm. So if there were a consistent and reliable way to get it back that didn't limit both powers AND weapons, I'd be all for it. But as of now, it's a fact that energy economy does not match up with how uncommon energy seems to be outside of fringe cases. 

 

TL;DR:

Energy Overflow is definitely too powerful, but removing regen entirely is a pretty poor decision. Capping it really low may yield better feedback than returning to the previous status quo of forcing everyone to use the same max energy, max efficiency builds all the time. Energy Siphon is a bandaid. It could use a buff, but it's still a sad excuse for a consistent way to regain energy. 

People play Warframe and enjoy the powers because they're insanely satisfying. And forcing everyone to just suck it up and not use them is simply just insulting. It's like saying "Yes, we have awesome superpowers........But only sometimes"

Orbs are not consistent enough to be called a reliable source of energy. We need a better way because DE has, pretty clearly, made many new warframes with the knowledge that we do, in fact, have a way to regain enough energy for power costs to not be a problem. With that going away, many of our powers disappear as well. But more importantly, powers are a staple of Warframe. Getting rid of power consistency for basically everything but the loot frames it just a bad idea.

Edited September 17, 2017 by TrickshotMcGee

[RX-3DR]

39 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

1. Lack of the regeneration won't make people any more conscious of their limited energy, they're simply going to swap to another form of regaining it. As an avid user of the Unairu school and an exclusively solo player, I burn through a number of pizzas pretty regularly.

2.  However, forcing players to play a very specific way to regain energy is just as bad IMO. You mentioned energy restored by hitting enemies with Glaives. I really dislike Glaives, so if that were one of the few ways to regain it, that would irk me some great deal. What's worse is that it makes some mods absolutely mandatory again, particularly for some energy-hungry Warframes (lookin at you, Chroma). I always felt that having mandatory mods was kind of silly, and I am loathe to just up and say "well, everyone can suck it up or just not use powers more than 3-4 times". 

Energy orbs are not a reliable source of energy. In fact, they're a bit uncommon for me. Rarely see them outside of pickpocketing with Ivara, Desecrating, or using Pilfering Swarm. So if there were a consistent and reliable way to get it back that didn't limit both powers AND weapons, I'd be all for it. But as of now, it's a fact that energy economy does not match up with how uncommon energy seems to be outside of fringe cases. 

I just want to address a few things.

1. Part of this problem is that people are refusing to acknowledge that their use of energy is wasteful and advocating that the system must remain or else their entire existence is threatened. This whole problem is easily replicated with Energy Pads but they come at a price unlike passive Energy Regeneration. If DE is looking into tackling the issue with abhorrent consumable use, that will be a problem they can tackle at another time.

2. That was a small example. We have conditional mods for all weapon types currently and most of them are quite unpopular so having a few more conditional mods is not going to harm the game too much if you ask me. Having multiple, maybe 2 or more with varying conditions according to the weapon type with an appropriate rate to match the difficulty of the condition would suffice. Compared to the obvious mandatory mods such as Multishot and Damage mods, they won't fall into that same issue as much since all this talk about how the the end is nigh with the removal of EO is exaggerated by poor energy management. End of the day, it's supposed to be a price for you to decide if want that small boost, spend more on Energy Restores or just find ways to cut down your energy use. The way I see it, it addresses the issue of reliable alternatives to recovering energy as well as cut down the toggle and ignore problem by making pushing an incentive for casters to start making use of their weapons. 

You avoid ending up in a situation where the mods are now entirely needed in every build since not everyone is in dire need for more sources of Energy Regeneration. It is more of an equivalent to a weapon that Mages can use while low on MP in a more traditional setting but by making a mod or something that can be just as easily adjusted, it removes the restriction of it being tied to a single weapon. The only people that lose out are people who refuse to adapt. Abilities are very complementary to gunplay/melee, why not give the opportunity for some gunplay and melee to complement abilities?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Flandyrll