Why are all the PvP rooms dead

[VicRockefeller]

And why is there only 4 of them?

 

I thought this game was supposed to be popular.

[PrimoValkyria]

On 9/17/2017 at 10:27 AM, --Q--DragonSkllzz said:

Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate.

In reality, PvP is quite balanced (only real experience is with friends, events and lunaro, don't quote me on normal PvP in public lobbies) if only you take some time to learn the basics and practice, though there are a few infuriating bugs and their abusers.

>which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it

Its actually really easy to pick up if you've had experience with any arena shooters before, its the bad attitude and awful Oro system that keeps the people I talked to about it away. 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by PrimoValkyria

[Cosmic_Elf]

Actually I wish DE would include the option and use of game bots like Unreal Tournament  for PVP, this could provide a learning platform for those new to PVP to get the hang of the maps , spots and so on.. PVP sometimes is not fun when there is a huge skill gap in players, and the skills of PVP do differ to that of regular missions on the star chart and the plains of eidolon. Often those who are beginners of PVP feel it is unfair that that they are getting killed all the time, and dont get any standing or little at or for trying which demotivates players and their time with PVP. Introducing the voluntary use of bots in PVP can help those who are not used to it to learn and not abandon this part of Warframe(which could also allow them to play PVP solo until they are confident enough). I personally still dont get/understand the Lunario  , played it 3 times and never returned, and only returned to pvp during last christmass with the candy cane and snow ball fights until the event ended (it was fun and well balanced).. I think if PVP was designed like Unreal Torunament, where users collect weapons and use them during the session, it would make it more balanced, as they start match of with a basic pistol, malee and primary, but find different guns & weapons that are spawned in the map during the match. The weapons are only available to use in the map... and are spawned randomly.

 

btw i miss those dark sector relay battles ... where oposing teams recruited to sabotage the ship reactors.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Cosmic_Elf

[Aggh]

Because warframe PvP has a relatively high skill ceiling and PvE carebears come in thinking they can just be a super space ninja and then quickly blame mechanics they don't understand (mostly assuming they're getting outplayed cause mods and not because they're bad).  The same kind of thing happened in amazing etenerals (minus the high skill ceiling).  There are way too many PvE players here who can't stand losing even though they're too bad to do anything about it.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Aggh

[Ada_Wong_SG]

After you spent hundreds of hours playing and getting mods in PVE only realize that PVP does not allow them, 
instead you basically have a different set of mods and balance that is tailored to PVP, making it a separate game effectively.

If you have spent hundreds of hours using weapons and warframes for PVE

you are conditioned to use certain builds, even taking out fire rate mod and reloading speed mod 
would throw your weapon proficiency off.

Not to mention a lot of weapons are designed from ground up to be modded in PVE, a Soma Prime without crit mods is practically worse than
a MK1 Braton in terms of damage output, now taking the mods out of context and you will need to re-learn PVP, which the game isn't structured around.

Now bear in mind that with PVP and PVE being nearly different version of warframe, to play both well 
you will need item slot specifically to house the weapons for 2 separate game modes

Which the main motivation of me to play this game isn't PVP, I do have CS and other FPS around that is built from ground up
a balanced PVP game, if I want to play PVP I wouldn't be playing warframe in the first place.

Though the conclave aside, there isn't something like assassin mode or hitman mode, where players can join the game as 
NPCs shout out for help and give bounty rewards to Tenno who help them.

Kind of like Defection mode, there will be Tenno sent in to rescue the deserters Grineers, 
but there would also be Tenno accepting bounty to hunt the deserters.

Or assassination, where Tenno can accept hiring to be bodyguard of bosses when the other team tries to assassinate him/her.

Better still, whenever a boss is killed, a hit goes out to everyone, so a new "stalker" mode where Tenno can 
take up bounty as a stalker for rewards.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Sloan441]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:28 AM, Kutsus said:

Warframe is extremely popular, but no one likes the pvp, its bad, unnecessary, and most of all not the reason why people get into warframe.

Pretty much this. 

Most of the community not only doesn't want to indulge PvP in this game, they don't even accept the premise that it's necessary for this sort of game to be successful. Quite the opposite. 

Trying to combine PvP and PvE in the same game is simply impossible if there's any sort of progression system. I've played a lot of games that have attempted this and it always had serious systemic problems. You either have one or the other and the game tuned around that. In WF, we've come to have what are basically two different game with the same art assets.

The problem is the community wants nothing to do with the PvP sub-game, so it languishes. Heck, the community barely acknowledges PvP-lite (aka: Lunaro) as existing. There's simply very little interest in it in any form. 

[Aggh]

13 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

Pretty much this. 

Most of the community not only doesn't want to indulge PvP in this game, they don't even accept the premise that it's necessary for this sort of game to be successful. Quite the opposite. 

Trying to combine PvP and PvE in the same game is simply impossible if there's any sort of progression system. I've played a lot of games that have attempted this and it always had serious systemic problems. You either have one or the other and the game tuned around that. In WF, we've come to have what are basically two different game with the same art assets.

The problem is the community wants nothing to do with the PvP sub-game, so it languishes. Heck, the community barely acknowledges PvP-lite (aka: Lunaro) as existing. There's simply very little interest in it in any form. 

This is BS.  If they hadn't been shamed by the community into putting minimal resources into it PvP would probably be fine.  As it were they have to try and shoe horn in hundreds of weapons into a PvP rebalance of a massive game with next to no man hours to allow them to take time to make it work.  Tack in the fact that movement speed raises the skill ceiling waaaay past what most PvE players can cope with and it was inevitable that the mode with languish.  It has nothing to do with whether it's really possible since it definitely is and it's actually pretty amazing what they've done with the minimal amount of resources they've been able to put into it and how long they had to put off actually implementing it. 

There was a small relatively small , but very active PvP community when the rework launched, but they weren't able to move fast enough to get out listen servers and or fix balance problems quickly enough to keep players.  The average PvP gamer is a lot less forgiving with these kinds of things, and DE still doesn't really get that; the way The Amazing Eternals was handled illustrates this pretty well.

Also, the time investment to keep up on the PvP reward structure also made it really hard to keep up with the PvE grind.  Making people choose between PvP and the PvE that they've already put a significant amount of time into is pretty dumb.  

But hey, lets keep simplifying a complex issue down into the usual vapid "PvP is dumb and no one wanted it" argument.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Aggh

[SolarDwagon]

Short answer, lack of matchmaking.

Long answer:
Warframe PvP is very much skill-based. VERY much so. Which unfortunately means that it has a significant learning curve. It's also much more skill biased than many other games because of the possibility of constant movement for those that can use it right. On top of this, you have the modding system which while actually fairly balanced *now*, has in the past been more of a source of power, and gives the impression of a veteran gear advantage. All this adds together to create a situation where new players, and even *decent* players, can be hopelessly outclassed to the point of not getting a single kill. Which isn't fun. So people give bad feedback to their friends, and stop playing. Which compounds the problem, because the only people still playing are the ones who ARE getting all the kills, all the progress, and probably having more fun than anyone else as a result. So anyone new coming in without a proper matchmaking system gets fed back into the cycle of frustration, leading to salt, leading to desertion of the game type.
On top of this people who expect press 4 to win to work are often disappointed, assuming you can get enough of the pickups and live long enough to even use it.
Then there's the fact that PvP progression is not tied to the rest of the game, and there are few rewards, much less meaningful ones, that carry through to PvE, which means PvP time is basically spent playing a different game as far as 'progression' goes.
So in summary you have: A vastly different game type, with extremely steep learning curve, and no matchmaking to stratify with skill, that is a separate game from the rest of Warframe. Which is why PvP rooms are often empty.

[Rubbertubtub01]

PvP used to be good before update 16...

[polarity]

Any PvP where seasoned veterans are matched with complete newcomers is bound to fail, because the first group may as well be playing PvE for all the challenge the majority of the opposition presents, while the second is never really given a chance to learn and improve, because they spend the huge majority of their time running from a spawn into combat, only to instantly die.

No-one is getting a good PvP experience, so you gradually lose any experienced players you had, while new players give up soon after starting, and then the experience of everyone just keeps getting worse.

It's a huge catch-22, where on the one hand, matchmaking by skill requires you to divide players into smaller groups, but on the other, you don't have enough players to divide them up without having too few to start matches.

Game designers frequently fail to consider that their games need to work with the number of players that they have, not just the number they want, so they have to put in systems to ensure that the game is playable when the game (or a system in it) is new, or outside of peak hours.

PvP game designers absolutely need to take this problem into account, and come up with some way to put both skilled and unskilled players into the same matches, without either group having their experience of the game diminished.

A couple of solutions used elsewhere are:

• Handicaps.  eg. reduce the damage and health of players as their K/D ratio increases, while boosting it for low K/D ratio players.  UT had another great way of doing this with one of its mods, where the heads of the better players got bigger, making them an easier target for headshots.  It could also have encouraged players, when faced with 2 opponents, to pick the one who had the bigger head and was the bigger threat, by giving higher points rewards for killing more skilled players.
• Skill-advantage minimizing mechanics.  Again in UT there was a mod, which added a set of relic pick-ups, that would spawn into the map at random locations and give various bonuses.  One for movement and firing speed, one for reduced damage taken, one for regenerating health and a higher max health, double damage, one that teleported you to a safe location and reset your health on taking fatal damage, and the most effective one at limiting skill, the vengeance relic, which shortly after the death of the player carrying it, would kill everyone else in line of sight.  That would reset the progress of the better players, who would most likely have lived long enough to collect all the best weapons and powerups.  You couldn't know who had what relic, so any time you killed someone you might get the player with the vengeance, and the players with the high K/Ds would have the highest chance of finding out who (they'd also have the best chance to get out of LoS in the few seconds before it exploded).  The only way to keep from getting killed by it would be to hang onto it yourself, which of course would leave all of the other relics available to the lower skilled players.  All-in-all it was an amazing system for leveling the playing field, while also introducing mechanics that made the game more fun.

And then you have a game type without these systems, which is where all of your players end up once they've both reached a reasonable level of skill, and have got bored of farming newbs, and want a real challenge.

Edited November 20, 2017 by polarity

[Tokens210]

For me personally i never played pvp in this game, dont ever intend on playing pvp in this game, downloaded the game simply and solely for the PVE and im not very competitive

 

That being said with the game being around for years now with a few years on console i have no idea why they havent made it better with matchmaking regards and such for the players that would like PVP

 

my only gripe with it would be if they went all Bungie on it like the first Destiny game and began nerfing/buffing/nerfing etc etc weapons and character solely on the grounds they were op in PVP and basically destroyed the PVE aspect cause the nerf carried over

As long as they could keep em separated i dont see why they cant fix it, well besides it adding more work to their plates that they may not wanna do lol

[GhostlyGhuleh]

As someone who plays PVP quite often, I have to agree that it is not balanced. There needs to be better match making for sure. When I first started playing, I had to die A LOT to get the system down. Now when I get with new players who are just trying to figure out what PVP is. I actually feel terrible when I realize that they are new. I try to help them out, explain how it works and the best way to practice if they are really interested in it, but it is almost like a whole different game. 

Its hectic, super hectic and those who are dedicated to PVP have a better chance then those who are not. It is not dead, but it is mostly players that are dedicated as other people have said. I can't tell you how many times I have logged in and thought to myself, "Oh look, its them again. Maybe this time I can kill them?" There are some players. Just not a ton. 

If they at least added match making it would make it a little better, maybe even a way to have bots so people can learn how to play better. 

It is a lot of fun, I actually enjoy it a lot and have been getting way better at it. It just takes time. 

Here are some helpful tips to at least get you going: 

1: Talk to Teshin in the conclave room in the relay. You should do this first so you can wear your sigil to gain standing in conclave. The standing will help you get better mods for conclave for your weapons and warframe.  

2: MAKE SURE recruiting is on, this will at least make it slightly more balanced. It will put you with players who are rank 2 in conclave and I believe it also disables all rare mods. This will at least give you a bit of a head start.

3: You are gonna die, A LOT. But you still get standing thankfully. You will start seeing how the other players work and figure out how to fight each warframe better. You will also learn which warframe you play best with in conclave. For me it is Valkyr, she is a bit squishy, but if you stay up on your energy you will find that hysteria is great when they get into groups. Which you can pretty much kill everyone in one push and run. 

4: Pay attention to your weapons. Impact hits shields, Puncture hits health, and Slash does a little bit of both. I like using more impact, the Boar shotgun is pretty good, its reload speed is slow, but it will at least keep people away. Make sure to have a good balance of weapons on you, and I have seen where elemental weapons that have radiation, heat, electricity do pretty well within conclave. It's just getting it down that is the issue with melee. Even for me. 

5: Practice actually helps. To practice my aiming (which you are going to be using your primary weapons more then anything.) Go into exterminate missions and rush them. Aim at the enemies while you are moving quickly throughout the mission. This will help you, it helped me a lot with just taking the shot instead of worrying about ammo. Most of the time you need to be as aggressive as possible.

6: As you are practicing, your going to learn your conclave maps, which means you will know where the health globes are, the energy globes, and the ammo scattered throughout the map. This will help you always stay full on ammo, and energy which are super important.

7: More then anything, NEVER STOP MOVING! Bullet Jump all the time, move fast, and try not to get hit. The harder it is to hit you, helps you with your survival rate. If you are able to hit people while moving quickly (which is why doing the extermination missions quickly helps.) it gives you more power upon the playing field. 

In the past month I have returned to Warframe and actually tried conclave and stayed with it. I have gone too never getting any kills, to always coming in third or second place. Every now and then I will get first which always makes me super excited.

Its a challenge, but as the other Tenno have posted before me, it is not that balanced. It needs work, but it is still super fun once you figure out how to work it well and what weapons to use.

So yeah. That is conclave for you. Unbalanced, hectic, but a ton of fun once you figure out how to use it. 

Of course it is not for everyone, but I feel like if people had a better understanding of how it worked, there would at least be a bit more people giving it a shot then never checking it out.

 

[MystMan]

2 hours ago, LaurelKennemer said:

1: Talk to Teshin in the conclave room in the relay. You should do this first so you can wear your sigil to gain standing in conclave. The standing will help you get better mods for conclave for your weapons and warframe.  

That feature has been removed like 2 years ago. The conclave sigils are now purely decorative. Just playing conclave gives you standing.

[Murph_HKM]

Because, despite what those who enjoy the PvP might say (myself included), the PvP currently implemented just isn't good.

The lack of a (pvp) population is indicative of that. Warframe is built around high speed and high mobility; there was a time when the masses did enjoy games that played like this (see Quake/UT) but the current gaming community widely rejects games like that nowadays, which is why slower paced games like CoD/Battlefield/PUBG are exploding with people.

If you don't believe me, look at how hard the new Quake has already failed and the "new" UT has been stuck in developmental purgatory ever since it was announced.

In short, I don't think people care for games where you have to "grind" your skill level up; games like Quake/UT and yes, Warframe, have insanely high learning curves to them. Couple that with the fact that in these games, there is one playstyle that is far superior to everything else, and it takes away a lot of the draw of a progression based game. You can't go with a "sniper" style loadout. Or a close-combat, melee oriented playstyle. You need to cycle between every weapon, every ability, and you need to do it all while constantly moving.

Unless they remodel the PvP to play FAR slower (think something like Gears of War) and make abilities have huge cooldowns and remove knockdowns/stunlocking from melee combat, as well as lower the effective ranges on certain weapons, it'll never have a high population.

The ironic thing is, if they actually dedicated a sizable number of people to making the PvP more appealing to a broader audience, Destiny 2 would literally lose its population overnight. Warframe does legitimately EVERYTHING better than Destiny 1 or 2; you can see that in the polish the game has and the seemingly overwhelming amount of stuff to do in the realm of PvE; then you load up the PvP and it looks extremely janky. You can just tell they never fully committed to it. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Murph_HKM
Clarification

[GhostlyGhuleh]

16 hours ago, MystMan said:

That feature has been removed like 2 years ago. The conclave sigils are now purely decorative. Just playing conclave gives you standing.

Seriously?! I never noticed it until I started wearing the sigil, maybe I just wasn't paying attention! That is good to know! Thank you! 

Edited December 5, 2017 by LaurelKennemer

[SolarDwagon]

23 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

Because, despite what those who enjoy the PvP might say (myself included), the PvP currently implemented just isn't good.

The lack of a (pvp) population is indicative of that. Warframe is built around high speed and high mobility; there was a time when the masses did enjoy games that played like this (see Quake/UT) but the current gaming community widely rejects games like that nowadays, which is why slower paced games like CoD/Battlefield/PUBG are exploding with people.

If you don't believe me, look at how hard the new Quake has already failed and the "new" UT has been stuck in developmental purgatory ever since it was announced.

In short, I don't think people care for games where you have to "grind" your skill level up; games like Quake/UT and yes, Warframe, have insanely high learning curves to them. Couple that with the fact that in these games, there is one playstyle that is far superior to everything else, and it takes away a lot of the draw of a progression based game. You can't go with a "sniper" style loadout. Or a close-combat, melee oriented playstyle. You need to cycle between every weapon, every ability, and you need to do it all while constantly moving.

Unless they remodel the PvP to play FAR slower (think something like Gears of War) and make abilities have huge cooldowns and remove knockdowns/stunlocking from melee combat, as well as lower the effective ranges on certain weapons, it'll never have a high population.

The ironic thing is, if they actually dedicated a sizable number of people to making the PvP more appealing to a broader audience, Destiny 2 would literally lose its population overnight. Warframe does legitimately EVERYTHING better than Destiny 1 or 2; you can see that in the polish the game has and the seemingly overwhelming amount of stuff to do in the realm of PvE; then you load up the PvP and it looks extremely janky. You can just tell they never fully committed to it. 

Honestly, no. I don't want Warframe PvP to turn into yet another CS with extras. What I do want is actual skill-based matchmaking that puts scrubs like me with other scrubs, and lets the pros actually find each other.

[low1991]

On 11/4/2017 at 5:56 AM, Raynalle said:

the pvp is unbalance that's all, mastery 10 with 2k hours on the game dude how i'm suppose to fight there, plus is only a jump jump, too painfull to play, i go to paladin or overwath for some pvp (almost balanced) with super powa, no warframe, DE isn't really wasting time to make the pvp more fun so screw that, they don't care? i don't either for sure XD

I rather go play Krtika, DoTa, Gunz, FEZ (pity close down), KUF2. Games that have strong and stable PvP function.

WF is becoming jack of all trades, master of none. Which us players/collector are, many frame, but master in none. (no insult intended)

[Olianu]

I will regale you my experience with pvp.

I didn't know the mission type I was invited into by a clan member, and I was exploring the map, trying to figure it out.  I get one shot from behind.  after five minutes of looking for this ally, "mission failed."  I kept asking what's going on until they FINALLY responded and said in the most condescending tone "You're MR 17 an you don't know what Conclave is???"  Then the said clan member tried to show me more as their friend joined, turned on world on fire and one shot me.

The only "balance" in these areas are if the connection to the server isn't dodgy and you have all the mods required to be adequate.  It's a really bad system that seems to have no real sense of balance or understanding of what's fair as you learn how it feels to be a level 1 grineer on the recieving end of a rank 30 warframe. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 17.09.2017 at 5:22 PM, VicRockefeller said:

And why is there only 4 of them?

I thought this game was supposed to be popular.

On 17.09.2017 at 5:27 PM, --Q--DragonSkllzz said:

Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate.

In reality, PvP is quite balanced (only real experience is with friends, events and lunaro, don't quote me on normal PvP in public lobbies) if only you take some time to learn the basics and practice, though there are a few infuriating bugs and their abusers.

The answer is simpler. Lack of dedicated servers makes PvP aspect of Warframe unplayable and inherently unbalanced no matter what they do.

 

[Sader]

On 9/26/2017 at 4:32 PM, Stormdragon said:

I won't be naming anyone, but there are several PvE players who will show up everyday to rush their way out of recruit conditioning (the newbies matchmaking option) and then blame the game for matching them with experienced players. There are several PvE players who will beg for help with the daily challenges to those willing to actually have fun playing conclave, ignoring their desires of actually playing, becoming highly toxic towards anyone who doesn't help them in a Player Versus Player environment where none has any compromise with the opposite team (TDM/CtC) nor the player in front of them (FFA).

As pointed before, newcomers should be in RC until they feel ready to fight against actual players and even then be ready to lose more often than getting victories. If newcomers rush out of RC in order to get the rewards (which happen to be some skins with no gameplay value other than the dumb "fashionframe is the true end game" meme + a syandana with conclave related upkeep ) then it's not fault of the old, experienced, skilled, veteran players (or whatever you wamt to call them) that newcomers get into their arena before being ready for it, but the newcomer's one for expecting to jump there and do as good as he was doing against those on his league. It just doesn't make any sense.

Again, there are 2 matchmaking tiers , RC and non-RC. The only issues I see with these are: 

A) Being able to stay in RC despite being too good for players there.

B) Being able to leave it despite doing it on your very first match.

Since leaving RC is an option and there's no way back in it after certain point, (A) happening is the game's fault for not having a forced graduation system; while (B) being a choice puts the blame on the player making the decision.

But hey! Blaming others by our own mistakes is way easier than sucking it up and carrying on.

Here's the thing, people who stay in RC do not get any better. That's the simple truth of it. The last RC game I played I ended with 25 kills 1 death on FFA deathmatch. I didn't think I was "great" but I thought I was "good enough" to move past RC.

Then I finally met some really good players and figured out there was farm more I needed to understand. After getting out of RC I discovered A) Mods actually matter. I didn't think PvP mods made much of a difference, boy was I wrong. I've spent my last 200k conclave rep ammasing a huge assortment of PvP mods. B) People in RC move very, very slow. C) Having multiple setups to switch to in matches is stupidly important.  D) Damage type matters, Impact / Puncture / Magnetic etc. Using them is vitally important.

I learned this all within the last couple days of hardcore pvping because I started to recognize WHY i was getting stomped out of RC with no option to go back to RC.

Now I'm fine, I regularly win matches outside or score very high against even the "best" players.

So to reiterate. No, you can't stay in RC until you're "ready" because that will NEVER happen. You need to get beat into the ground to learn what you're missing, then you need to be open minded enough to do some research and figure out how to improve. You won't get better at conclave if you don't have the correct mentality.

[m101011]

the devs wanted to balance pvp by not allowing all frames ,mods and all weapons in pvp. this prevents pvp from forcing a nerf on pve useful stuff. also some stuff would be broken even if nerfed in pvp like the amprex

but this also makes it boring and tedious when ever they got conclave statues . its like fine i will let people beat up rhino for a bit but im not trying and you cant make me. then before you know it nobody will touch pvp because they had to do challenge pvp for a heart statue or oro statue and running around with a bow when you dont use bows is enough to make you never want to do it again

[SolarDwagon]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:11 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The answer is simpler. Lack of dedicated servers makes PvP aspect of Warframe unplayable and inherently unbalanced no matter what they do.

 

Except... they have dedicated servers. They just aren't matchmade servers.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

30 minutes ago, SolarDwagon said:

Except... they have dedicated servers. They just aren't matchmade servers.

so they don't have dedicated servers then

[SolarDwagon]

30 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

so they don't have dedicated servers then

They have servers dedicated for the use of PvP. That is the definition of dedicated servers.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, SolarDwagon said:

They have servers dedicated for the use of PvP. That is the definition of dedicated servers.

2 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

They just aren't matchmade servers.

explain. So they have servers for pvp, but regular people can't play on them or smth? I don't get what you're saying. The last time I checked the conclave it was peer2peer.

 

[Sader]

14 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

explain. So they have servers for pvp, but regular people can't play on them or smth? I don't get what you're saying. The last time I checked the conclave it was peer2peer.

 

The Conclave is not Peer2Peer.