Coop opting out

[Fallen_Echo]

Disclaimer: 

Thanks for @EDYinnit for making the original idea what stil holds its place today.

Inspired by 'conversations' about the impact of Volt's Speed "buff", Limbo and his "advanced skills" and how it can hinder instead of help, what we need is a way to remove or opt-out buff effects - make them never happen in the first place, instead of having to perform otherwise-used moves to escape them if we wish.

Proposing a new menu safely buried under an "advanced options" label somewhere (away from the unwise and newer players), that allows us to irrevocably deny abilities we don't want affecting us.

 

• Option 1: Buffing Abilities by Name - Listing team-buffing abilities by name, allowing to toggle yes/no on whether these affect us upon being cast.
  • Caveat: Variant or multifunctional abilities (e.g. Chroma buffs in differing Elements, Ivara Quiver) could experience edge cases where desired effects are denied whether or not undesired factors are present.
• Option 2: Buffing Abilities by Type - Listing buffable statistics/unique effects, and denying the application of any buffs which use these effects (e.g. deny Melee Attack Speed buffs = no Valkyr Warcry or Volt Speed, nor any other effect from these buffs)
  • Caveat: While better permitting variable abilities (as it is the specific buff involved rather than the ability itself), this does still provide instances where desired effects may come tied with undesired effects, causing both to be removed. However, this is identical to the current cases of "roll to remove" mechanics - all effects are taken away indescriminately.

• Option 3: Mechanics changed buffs - In this case the original buff is modified in a way that it keeps its original effect for the caster but changes for the users who opted out.
  • Caveat: Very hard to implent as it requies two different datastreamst to be created. For example a stasis limbo would see frozen enemies who he can shot normally (as the skill lets him) while everybody else would see normal mobs without restrictions.
• Option 4: Buffing Effects Individually - Listing buffable statistics/unique effects, and simply locking the specified unwanted effects from functioning, while keeping the buff, and by extension, any other desired effects also present in the same buff entity.
  • Caveat: Likely to be more problematic on DE's side to implement, despite being the absolute best option for precision. Could also involve exploit cases where a tradeoff exists but its negative effect is 'denied' while keeping the positive, although this could be catered for in implementation.

[Emulad0or]

I'm OK with any of those, as long as it keeps Volt's _debuff away from me. That said....

Options 1 and 2 seems to be the most viable tho. Maybe Option 2 would be easier, since DE can make one menu option and just tag the new abilities from future warframes instead of needing to create new options on the menu for every new buff a future warframe may provide 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/761963-buff-veto-menu-because-prevention-is-better-than-cure/

Any upvotes for the idea can go there or this post, either way.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/761963-buff-veto-menu-because-prevention-is-better-than-cure/

Any upvotes for the idea can go there or this post, either way.

Hey, thanks for coming:) 

What do you think of the edit? I added a new option into the list.

[kgabor]

As much as i hate the nub Frost globe spam-Limbo surge-Stasis spam, i don't think option 3. would work, it would trivialize the game especially with Limbo, basically you would see nothing but Limbo master race with the occasional Ember, Equinox, Excal and Banshee in every match because playing Limbo would have no downside.

Option 1 would be nice imo., option 2 could work too but there are abilities that apply more than one type of modifiers, option 4 would also trivialize the game way too much so i like option 1 the most.

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, kgabor said:

As much as i hate the nub Frost globe spam-Limbo surge-Stasis spam, i don't think option 3. would work, it would trivialize the game especially with Limbo, basically you would see nothing but Limbo master race with the occasional Ember, Equinox, Excal and Banshee in every match because playing Limbo would have no downside.

Option 1 would be nice imo., option 2 could work too but there are abilities that apply more than one type of modifiers, option 4 would also trivialize the game way too much so i like option 1 the most.

You seriously missread something there. Option 3 keeps stasis for limbo the same, it only changes what others get. A skill should not have a downside what only affects the teammates and not you.

[kgabor]

The downside for using Cata+Stasis currently is that your teammates can't use guns inside the Cataclysm (you can reach insane dps with a melee with the Rift Torrent augment while using Limbo so for Limbo users there is really no point in using anything other than melee)so i guess the opt out would remove the Rift and Cataclysm for Limbo-s teammates but would keep enemies Stasis-d and in the same plain as other players which would utterly trivialize gameplay with a Limbo, especially with maximum range.

[TheLexiConArtist]

28 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Hey, thanks for coming:) 

What do you think of the edit? I added a new option into the list.

Conceptually I can see what you mean (but leaves it up to definition what players could consider to impede their gameplay, e.g. how Volt players fail to comprehend Speed issues at all) but that is an impossible example you gave for Stasis. The whole opt-out is the only viable option there, that you must suffer locked enemies just the same as how you wouldn't be able to prevent Molecular Prime slows or Sound Quake staggerlocking, but give and receive damage completely disregarding the Rift plane, and can shoot without bullets being frozen.

A full opt-out is the safe dichotomy that doesn't just leave it up to ever-changing precise perceptions. Either you benefit more from a buff/effect than it hinders you, or it hinders you more than it benefits and you opt out.

18 minutes ago, kgabor said:

As much as i hate the nub Frost globe spam-Limbo surge-Stasis spam, i don't think option 3. would work, it would trivialize the game especially with Limbo, basically you would see nothing but Limbo master race with the occasional Ember, Equinox, Excal and Banshee in every match because playing Limbo would have no downside.

Option 1 would be nice imo., option 2 could work too but there are abilities that apply more than one type of modifiers, option 4 would also trivialize the game way too much so i like option 1 the most.

Please elaborate on how you think 4 would trivialise the game (give specific examples for the caveat I already considered of potential abuse cases.)

[kgabor]

Like op said, keeping one modifier from an ability and discarding another that could lead to exploits by ignoring an ability-s downside, what i said earlier is a nice example for this, a max range Cata-Stasis Limbo can lock down a whole map, it's Super Saiyanness would make Vauban and Frost completely obsolete without a tradeoff.

[Fallen_Echo]

24 minutes ago, kgabor said:

The downside for using Cata+Stasis currently is that your teammates can't use guns inside the Cataclysm (you can reach insane dps with a melee with the Rift Torrent augment while using Limbo so for Limbo users there is really no point in using anything other than melee)so i guess the opt out would remove the Rift and Cataclysm for Limbo-s teammates but would keep enemies Stasis-d and in the same plain as other players which would utterly trivialize gameplay with a Limbo, especially with maximum range.

Not exactly, imagine that you are in a dark room. Inside the room when you turn on the lightswitch you will see the lamp turn on and now the darkness vanishes. The other two doesnt see this, they only see that you turned on a switch and theres still darkness.

In this specific case limbo would get a datastream where the enemies are frozen and they somehow lose health, while everybody else gets a different datastream where the enemies move and attack normally without any rift effect while the limbo is somehow invisible to them.

Now that i said this i started to realize that this is impossible to create in a game like this as it would require each player to create a solo datastream what then gets combined bases on everybodies preferences.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, kgabor said:

Like op said, keeping one modifier from an ability and discarding another that could lead to exploits by ignoring an ability-s downside, what i said earlier is a nice example for this, a max range Cata-Stasis Limbo can lock down a whole map, it's Super Saiyanness would make Vauban and Frost completely obsolete without a tradeoff.

Im might be the maker of this post but the ideas expect 3 are all came from @EDYinnit

[TheLexiConArtist]

22 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Like op said, keeping one modifier from an ability and discarding another that could lead to exploits by ignoring an ability-s downside, what i said earlier is a nice example for this, a max range Cata-Stasis Limbo can lock down a whole map, it's Super Saiyanness would make Vauban and Frost completely obsolete without a tradeoff.

I'm the originator of options 1, 2 and 4 in the OP.

 

So, Stasis locking down a whole map.. you mean like Quake Banshee does already and better, right? That exists, yet Frost/Booben still get played.

[kgabor]

Ye, normal Quake Banshee is godlike in game modes such as mobile defenses, excavations etc. without much care about energy but gets locked in one place while using its 4., Limbo however can keep the map locked down, go around the map without ever running out of energy and be a high DPS frame with a melee at the same time (though more affected by Nullifiers but Grineer and Infested missions don't have them)making the frame viable for endless game modes such as interceptions and survivals.

There is a difference between so good it's broken and infinite energy and god mode without restrictions level of broken, you can mod Banshee for one thing, with Limbo you can do anything with one build. (not that it's a bad thing in itself, less frames should be all about building for one power and spamming just that one making them a one trick pony with boring gameplay and no flexibility in modding and playstile, but Limbo without some kind of restriction would be overpowered)

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

It's not that serious. You guys overreact so much.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Ye, normal Quake Banshee is godlike in game modes such as mobile defenses, excavations etc. without much care about energy but gets locked in one place while using its 4., Limbo however can keep the map locked down, go around the map without ever running out of energy and be a high DPS frame with a melee at the same time (though more affected by Nullifiers but Grineer and Infested missions don't have them)making the frame viable for endless game modes such as interceptions and survivals.

This highlights a possible flaw with Limbo's kit insularly, regardless of other players succumbing to its effects. Even as it stands, with a moratorium on gunplay that is its "downside", melee is more than strong enough in current-day Warframe to operate at levels as high (or higher) than guns, so there isn't a whole lot of abuse case here.

 

Now also consider that I proposed you cannot opt out of your own effects, e.g. two Limbos in a squad with one opted out of Stasis would fail to shoot within their own Cataclysm-Stasis bubble but could shoot while inside the other player's.

So if you trust yourself to put things appropriately (you should), but don't trust others to do the same with the kit... It's catered for.

[Shockwave-]

Just give us a universal cancel button - even if it cancels all buffs from other players (not us).

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

Just give us a universal cancel button - even if it cancels all buffs from other players (not us).

Jump off the cliff. Works universally.

[peterc3]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Disclaimer: 

Thanks for @EDYinnit for making the original idea what stil holds its place today.

Inspired by 'conversations' about the impact of Volt's Speed "buff", Limbo and his "advanced skills" and how it can hinder instead of help, what we need is a way to remove or opt-out buff effects - make them never happen in the first place, instead of having to perform otherwise-used moves to escape them if we wish.

Proposing a new menu safely buried under an "advanced options" label somewhere (away from the unwise and newer players), that allows us to irrevocably deny abilities we don't want affecting us.

 

• Option 1: Buffing Abilities by Name - Listing team-buffing abilities by name, allowing to toggle yes/no on whether these affect us upon being cast.
  • Caveat: Variant or multifunctional abilities (e.g. Chroma buffs in differing Elements, Ivara Quiver) could experience edge cases where desired effects are denied whether or not undesired factors are present.
• Option 2: Buffing Abilities by Type - Listing buffable statistics/unique effects, and denying the application of any buffs which use these effects (e.g. deny Melee Attack Speed buffs = no Valkyr Warcry or Volt Speed, nor any other effect from these buffs)
  • Caveat: While better permitting variable abilities (as it is the specific buff involved rather than the ability itself), this does still provide instances where desired effects may come tied with undesired effects, causing both to be removed. However, this is identical to the current cases of "roll to remove" mechanics - all effects are taken away indescriminately.

• Option 3: Mechanics changed buffs - In this case the original buff is modified in a way that it keeps its original effect for the caster but changes for the users who opted out.
  • Caveat: Very hard to implent as it requies two different datastreamst to be created. For example a stasis limbo would see frozen enemies who he can shot normally (as the skill lets him) while everybody else would see normal mobs without restrictions.
• Option 4: Buffing Effects Individually - Listing buffable statistics/unique effects, and simply locking the specified unwanted effects from functioning, while keeping the buff, and by extension, any other desired effects also present in the same buff entity.
  • Caveat: Likely to be more problematic on DE's side to implement, despite being the absolute best option for precision. Could also involve exploit cases where a tradeoff exists but its negative effect is 'denied' while keeping the positive, although this could be catered for in implementation.

This already exists. Play Solo.

Lacking the will to not enforce your play style on others, why are you burying gameplay affecting changes in some menu? This is a bloody nightmare from DE's standpoint. Any group of players could have any permutation of some people wanting some buffs, others not having them. The very suggestion of having Stasis only affect Limbo's view of the game world is borderline trolling DE. If this is even entertained, it would be all or nothing. There is no universe where you could pick and choose various effects but reject others.

Stasis is not a buff, it is CC. You have 3 weapons, melee is one of them.

Communicate. Tell the Volt not to use Speed, but if the others in your squad want it, deal with it or make your own squad. This is co-op, play with other people or don't.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This already exists. Play Solo.

Lacking the will to not enforce your play style on others, why are you burying gameplay affecting changes in some menu? This is a bloody nightmare from DE's standpoint. Any group of players could have any permutation of some people wanting some buffs, others not having them. The very suggestion of having Stasis only affect Limbo's view of the game world is borderline trolling DE. If this is even entertained, it would be all or nothing. There is no universe where you could pick and choose various effects but reject others.

Stasis is not a buff, it is CC. You have 3 weapons, melee is one of them.

Communicate. Tell the Volt not to use Speed, but if the others in your squad want it, deal with it or make your own squad. This is co-op, play with other people or don't.

So "impede other players to suit your own agenda" ...or GTFO.

Because that is better than a quick function call that checks for a certain flag being set and skips over a piece of code that applies the offending effect to a player entity. Silently. Without bothering the person casting the ability. Without preventing you from playing public at all. Without even preventing you from playing with the particular Warframe because hey, Discharge and put down Electric Shields all you like, Volt, just don't interfere specifically with my movement because I find it obstructive.

 

if(effect.Source == player.Warframe || player.Settings.Optout.Speed != true){ player.Warframe.Buffs.Add(effect) }

such a coding nightmare

[Fallen_Echo]

48 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Communicate. Tell the Volt not to use Speed, but if the others in your squad want it, deal with it or make your own squad. This is co-op, play with other people or don't.

Yeah and if it does not work you can leave and try again and again and again......

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

So "impede other players to suit your own agenda" ...or GTFO.

Because that is better than a quick function call that checks for a certain flag being set and skips over a piece of code that applies the offending effect to a player entity. Silently. Without bothering the person casting the ability. Without preventing you from playing public at all. Without even preventing you from playing with the particular Warframe because hey, Discharge and put down Electric Shields all you like, Volt, just don't interfere specifically with my movement because I find it obstructive.

 

if(effect.Source == player.Warframe || player.Settings.Optout.Speed != true){ player.Warframe.Buffs.Add(effect) }

such a coding nightmare

Among other things this person was suggesting Stasis being active only on a given Limbo's game and none of the other players would have the enemies being frozen and guns not working. Which would mean there would be anywhere from 1-4 locations at any given point for enemies in a game. For me, this suggestion taints the rest of it and makes me think this was not thought out and I can safely ignore it.

 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Yeah and if it does not work you can leave and try again and again and again......

Or make your own group where you can enforce your favored play style on it and not expect randoms to pay attention to your whims.

[MagPrime]

20 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Or make your own group where you can enforce your favored play style on it and not expect randoms to pay attention to your whims.

Or we can acknowledge that Speed Spam is frakking annoying and introduce a way to negate it's effects (voluntarily) that doesn't require us to constantly back flip, or, increase the duration of the ability so the Volt's don't have to spam Speed, OR, improve matching making options to actually incentivize using the recruiting tab.

Or just belittle someone.  That works too.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Among other things this person was suggesting Stasis being active only on a given Limbo's game and none of the other players would have the enemies being frozen and guns not working. Which would mean there would be anywhere from 1-4 locations at any given point for enemies in a game. For me, this suggestion taints the rest of it and makes me think this was not thought out and I can safely ignore it.

Does it help to reiterate that all three other suggestions existed in the original thread on the subject, without the one that so offends you (and as I also said myself, is untenable)?

Edited September 23, 2017 by EDYinnit

[peterc3]

19 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Does it help to reiterate that all three other suggestions existed in the original thread on the subject, without the one that so offends you (and as I also said myself, is untenable)?

Then your original thread was sufficient. The only thing added was a technological nightmare. He hijacked your idea to spread nonsense.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Then your original thread was sufficient. The only thing added was a technological nightmare. He hijacked your idea to spread nonsense.

I asked his permission to revive his topic and only added the extra line to remove any chance of getting warned for reposting already existing topics.

In all seriousness we here have 4 different options and you are offended by the one what says:

18 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Very hard to implent

I know its a technical nightmare but its possible to make it.