Ash Feedback

[(PSN)Radehx]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

No, we're having a discussion on HOW he's effective. He CAN make it to endgame, but it ain't a yellow brick road, while many other frames have versatility in how they are effective, even if it includes augments. Fatal Teleport is honestly really good, but it's slow and monotonous. Seeking Shuriken doesn't help ash as much as it helps allies, which was it's purpose.Two ability that needs an augment doesn't excuse the rest of the frame.

Why doesn't help Seeking Shuriken Ash? It completely strips stuff off armor for him and if you double down with a viral weapon (Zarr, Pox, etc.), everything you fight is without armor and half health. You can melt entire groups super quick that way. Scales incredibly well and is faster than the FT setup. 

I only really use his 4 in case I mess up...as a panic button. I only switch it on when I'm in a riskier position...and then only actually trigger it when I mess up. Buys you a bit of time. 

A lot of frames need mods to really work well, so that's imo not an argument. Hell, some of the best Hydroid setups need 3 of his augments...but a lot need at least 1. 

If I want less cumbersome stealth, extra loot and better CC, I pick Ivara. If I want a higher kills per second figure and care less about providing my team with CC, I pick Ash. Dunno where Loki fits in tbh since I prefer Ivara's hard CC over his kit, and Ash outdamages Loki too. 

Both can go up to stupid levels and are kings/queens of survivals, just in different ways. Ivara's the old school Japanese Ninja...very methodical. Ash is Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill in that crazy scene where she slaughters hordes of enemies. 

Ash's Koga skin is probably the most ninja'esque skin in Warframe...

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Two ability that needs an augment doesn't excuse the rest of the frame.

Except that those two abilities are actually fine since they function well at lvls the average player is going to face, a good melee + combo counter will allow teleport to oneshot high lvl enemies and shuriken can deal with trash mobs. We shouldn't be balancing everything around lvl 300+ content.

Also there are frames like loki, zephyr, chroma, mag, saryn etc who has like one or two abilities that actually has any real use above lvl 30, these frames only have one niche and they deserve way more attention than ash who can atleast do multiply niches like team cloaking, armor stripping, Covert lethality, boss killing, and such.

Edited November 1, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Ash is Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill in that crazy scene where she slaughters hordes of enemies. 

I like this description.  Very fitting.  :D

Also, every frame out damages Loki. hehe.  :D

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Bladestorm right now is a legit waste of energy because the dps it pumps out takes way to long to do, not to mention that the time it takes to mark a target 3 times, deal the finisher, have your 2 clones do their finishers, and wait for the slash procs to finish their ticks, it's SOOOOO much faster to go 1 by one with a fatal teleport ash

Also we most be using different loadouts on ash, the only time enemies don't die in seconds is when I'm fighting anything past lvl 170+. I don't understand the marking problem because it takes me like 2 seconds to triple mark a group of enemies. If you can reach 3x combo counter and triple mark you can deal a total of 81,000 finisher damage which is enough damage to just straight up oneshot anything below lvl 100. However if I was using my build the damage would go from 81,000 to 149,040 finisher damage. That's enough damage to oneshot anything below lvl 150 . Best thing about this is that my build only uses steel charge and 115% power strength, just imagine how much more damage it can deal with a strength build + combo counter.

But you use ash however you please.

Edited November 1, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[Nazrethim]

Anyway, the points still stand:

Ash's first 3 abilities work fine, they aren't super amaizing, but they are fine for most content (though SShadow not being affected by Range makes no sense). The problem is Blade Storm. It's too slow, too expensive and it's damage, while strong, doesn't actually make up for the previous failures.

Ash needs a crowd killing tool, a real one, even if it's only effective against grunts.

[(PSN)Radehx]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

Anyway, the points still stand:

Ash's first 3 abilities work fine, they aren't super amaizing, but they are fine for most content (though SShadow not being affected by Range makes no sense). The problem is Blade Storm. It's too slow, too expensive and it's damage, while strong, doesn't actually make up for the previous failures.

Ash needs a crowd killing tool, a real one, even if it's only effective against grunts.

Viral AOE weapon & Seeking Shuriken = crowd killing 

Not a room nuker, but takes out groups easily enough. 

Bladestorm's cut scenes get old too quickly though and take up too much time though...even if it looks kinda cool. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You don't build for Cloak Arrow.

I meant Prowl, lol.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Also we most be using different loadouts on ash, the only time enemies don't die in seconds is when I'm fighting anything past lvl 170+. I don't understand the marking problem because it takes me like 2 seconds to triple mark a group of enemies. If you can reach 3x combo counter and triple mark you can deal a total of 81,000 finisher damage which is enough damage to just straight up oneshot anything below lvl 100. However if I was using my build the damage would go from 81,000 to 149,040 finisher damage. That's enough damage to oneshot anything below lvl 150 . Best thing about this is that my build only uses steel charge and 115% power strength, just imagine how much more damage it can deal with a strength build + combo counter.

But you use ash however you please.

I got a 200% ps build with steel charge. I told you, i get 30k per tick easy. Remember though, you're calculating ticks of slash damage, which only tick once every second, thus with my build, I'm getting roughly 30k finisher dps, which effectively against a level 100 heavy gunner is 800k dps, and enough to kill him in 3 seconds. This looks good, until you realize is took 1.5 seconds to make your marks, thus in those 4.5 seconds, fatal teleport would've been faster, or a one shot sniper with chroma is a whole lot faster. I understand the damage potential of blade storm, but it just isn't fast enough.

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Except that those two abilities are actually fine since they function well at lvls the average player is going to face, a good melee + combo counter will allow teleport to oneshot high lvl enemies and shuriken can deal with trash mobs. We shouldn't be balancing everything around lvl 300+ content.

Also there are frames like loki, zephyr, chroma, mag, saryn etc who has like one or two abilities that actually has any real use above lvl 30, these frames only have one niche and they deserve way more attention than ash who can atleast do multiply niches like team cloaking, armor stripping, Covert lethality, boss killing, and such.

 teleport by itself has major consistency issues and is useless with ancients around. Otherwise, fatal teleport wouldn't be needed for CL Dagger. Shurikem by itself is in the same spot rn as every other none scaling first abilities. Please look to the post below to see on his i feel about balancing things around level 300+

7 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Why doesn't help Seeking Shuriken Ash? It completely strips stuff off armor for him and if you double down with a viral weapon (Zarr, Pox, etc.), everything you fight is without armor and half health. You can melt entire groups super quick that way. Scales incredibly well and is faster than the FT setup. 

I only really use his 4 in case I mess up...as a panic button. I only switch it on when I'm in a riskier position...and then only actually trigger it when I mess up. Buys you a bit of time. 

A lot of frames need mods to really work well, so that's imo not an argument. Hell, some of the best Hydroid setups need 3 of his augments...but a lot need at least 1. 

If I want less cumbersome stealth, extra loot and better CC, I pick Ivara. If I want a higher kills per second figure and care less about providing my team with CC, I pick Ash. Dunno where Loki fits in tbh since I prefer Ivara's hard CC over his kit, and Ash outdamages Loki too. 

Both can go up to stupid levels and are kings/queens of survivals, just in different ways. Ivara's the old school Japanese Ninja...very methodical. Ash is Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill in that crazy scene where she slaughters hordes of enemies. 

Ash's Koga skin is probably the most ninja'esque skin in Warframe...

Armor strip and straight up damage don't take you that far. Yes with viral weapons, you get great kills rates up to level 150, but in endurance runs, which test the true capabilities of a frame (unless you wanna be THAT guy and cheese high level runs), the only thing ash has is his fatal teleport, because normal damage without damage buffs won't cut it. Artemis Bow Ivara does even more damage and kills faster than SS Ash. All i need are 5 Pox Throws and a level 7200 heavy gunner is removed of armor.

Here's the issue i have with judging a frame by how it plays with current popular levels. DE is notorious with adding stuff to surpass the old. Whenever they add a new enemy, they are almost always more powerful than the old, thus what "works" in regular levels *barely* will fall off. To give a most recent example, chroma was always said to be a great dps frame, but he was never popular because his superior damage wasn't needed, and other dps frames that are much less effective, yet "did fine in three missions we play" were more popular, yet most of the popular dps frames are never used in endurance runs because their dps is too low. Ask anyone who regularly goes beyond a 2 hour MoT about chroma, and we'll all show you just how much respect we have for him, yet most players never knew because all they did were sorties. Along comes PoE. Eidolons are huge monstrous robots with a huge health pool, thus only the best dps frames make the cut when it comes to being the best eidolon hunter. Now, chroma's huge damage boost has become relevant again and he's finally getting a use to the "general community", yet I feel this is only because YouTubers who either do endurance runs or know people who do endurance runs post videos about it, but us endurance runners knew from day one how good he was, and if players would just go beyond what DE gives them and find the good stuff, they'd understand too.

This may be a long explanation, but i just want to idea that because it works with current levels, means it's good. Ember WoF is an extremely popular dps frame, yet i dare you to try your ember against a tusk ship and see how that goes vs ballistic battery mesa, ivara, or chroma. Nox i believe were specifically introduced to break the Slash/toxin DoT meta we had early this year.

Also, about loki, his invis is the longest, and his ability to remove enemy guns and make them fight each other while decoy draws aggro, thus maintaining spawn rate and enemy flow, is unprecedented. His 8x damage multiplier is good for melee, but the real kicker here is that Stinging Talon has a finisher combo in the dagger stance, thus there isn't even a need to have abilities to do finishers for a squishy frame like him, where before, i had to use Parry.

[(PSN)Radehx]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

snip

You're totally and utterly wrong, the Seeking Shurkinen & viral weapon setup easily carries Ash into the 1000 levels ;)

Also, Ivara's Artemis bow drops off way earlier...and to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who's favorite frame is Ivara. She has other advantages over Ash, but damage isn't one of them.

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Also, about loki, his invis is the longest...

Given I never have to recast Prowl with Ivara...nope ;)

Loki sits in the middle between Ash and Ivara when it comes to how cumbersome stealth is. 

Ash is the damage stealth frame, Loki CC and Ivara is decent at both...and I'd argue her hard CC is actually stronger than Loki's. Neither Ivara nor Loki will beat Ash in terms of kills per second. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by (PS4)Radehx

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Ash is the damage stealth frame, Loki CC and Ivara is decent at both...and I'd argue her hard CC is actually stronger than Loki's. Neither Ivara nor Loki will beat Ash in terms of kills per second. 

Probably, but Ash, as a killer frame, is outperformed by other killer frames, ergo he is redundant whenever you don't go solo, and if you go solo you are pretty much scr*wed if the situation demands mass slaughter unless you already carry a mass slaughter weapon with you.

This didn't happen in the past, sure, Bladespam was a problem, but outside of idiotic spammers the ability was in a good spot. It was awesome for clearing grunts, but had severe damage reduction against Eximi and enemies affected by either Disruptors or Healers. It was meant for clearing grunts, while Teleport was meant for assassinating high priority targets. Problem was that didn't matter much and players just spammed their way anyway.

My point is, either Teleport needs to be scrapped and replaced with something to clear small groups of grunts, or Blade Storm needs to be turned into a mass slaughter tool again. Single-target assassins have no place in Warframe.

[(PSN)Radehx]

53 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Probably, but Ash, as a killer frame, is outperformed by other killer frames, ergo he is redundant whenever you don't go solo, and if you go solo you are pretty much scr*wed if the situation demands mass slaughter unless you already carry a mass slaughter weapon with you.

This didn't happen in the past, sure, Bladespam was a problem, but outside of idiotic spammers the ability was in a good spot. It was awesome for clearing grunts, but had severe damage reduction against Eximi and enemies affected by either Disruptors or Healers. It was meant for clearing grunts, while Teleport was meant for assassinating high priority targets. Problem was that didn't matter much and players just spammed their way anyway.

My point is, either Teleport needs to be scrapped and replaced with something to clear small groups of grunts, or Blade Storm needs to be turned into a mass slaughter tool again. Single-target assassins have no place in Warframe.

There are very few frames who'll outperform him for solo survival runs...because it's not just damage that matters. Maim Equinox does more damage, but he's never lasting as long as Ash for solo runs. Ash's kills per second figure is still extremely high up to stupid levels...

As for him being able to take out groups...he can already do that incredibly quickly with SS and a viral weapon, up to 1000 levels.

Edited November 2, 2017 by (PS4)Radehx

[Nazrethim]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

There are very few frames who'll outperform him for solo survival runs...because it's not just damage that matters. Maim Equinox does more damage, but he's never lasting as long as Ash for solo runs. Ash's kills per second figure is still extremely high up to stupid levels...

As for him being able to take out groups...he can already do that incredibly quickly with SS and a viral weapon, up to 1000 levels.

You fell into the same trap others did. It's not how good he is with a specialized build that's more minmaxed than R2D2. It's how well he does with a regular build made with regular mods (that is, the 30% mods, EHP mods, some basic mobility and maybe an augment or two etc, not Corrupted or Primed or Arcanes) on the general content (that is, Starchart content and Sorties). Endurance isn't balanced so it isn't accountable for balancing. The reason BS is nigh useless now is because DE decided to balance it around the metabuilds players were using instead of making it work by default, so we ended up with a pointless redundant ability that's slow as a snail, costs more energy than the frame has capacity for, makes 1 stat mandatory while making another a dumpstat (when previously they were good but optional), fixed none of the issues the ability had (spam was a player issue, not a power issue) killing any build diversity the frame had (did you know that pre-nerf BS was good with less range as it was with extra? It gave you control over what you BStormed and helped avoiding getting stuck on an eximi you didn't see coming) and killed his Teampotential entirely. Bringing Ash to a squad adds nothing besides Stripping armor to a few enemies or a boss. Or the ocassional SShadow Revive (because it's pretty much the ONLY function it has)

There's also the fact that both BS and FT are redundant, both do the exact same thing. "Misma mierda con distinto olor". Compare to pre-nerf when both had clearly different functions.

The stats don't tell the whole story.

 

Joke Nitpick: And what does SS means here? Seeking Shuriken? Smoke Screen? Smoke Shadow?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)Radehx]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

You fell into the same trap others did. It's not how good he is with a specialized build that's more minmaxed than R2D2. It's how well he does with a regular build made with regular mods (that is, the 30% mods, EHP mods, some basic mobility and maybe an augment or two etc, not Corrupted or Primed or Arcanes) on the general content (that is, Starchart content and Sorties). Endurance isn't balanced so it isn't accountable for balancing. The reason BS is nigh useless now is because DE decided to balance it around the metabuilds players were using instead of making it work by default, so we ended up with a pointless redundant ability that's slow as a snail, costs more energy than the frame has capacity for, makes 1 stat mandatory while making another a dumpstat (when previously they were good but optional), fixed none of the issues the ability had (spam was a player issue, not a power issue) killing any build diversity the frame had (did you know that pre-nerf BS was good with less range as it was with extra? It gave you control over what you BStormed and helped avoiding getting stuck on an eximi you didn't see coming) and killed his Teampotential entirely. Bringing Ash to a squad adds nothing besides Stripping armor to a few enemies or a boss. Or the ocassional SShadow Revive (because it's pretty much the ONLY function it has)

There's also the fact that both BS and FT are redundant, both do the exact same thing. "Misma mierda con distinto olor". Compare to pre-nerf when both had clearly different functions.

The stats don't tell the whole story.

 

Joke Nitpick: And what does SS means here? Seeking Shuriken? Smoke Screen? Smoke Shadow?

Why on earth are frames now measured based on using crappy mods with them??? That's just as stupid as "rating" Oberon without taking Phoenix Renewal into consideration...or decent mods boosting your efficiency. 

What Ash brings to the team is DAMAGE and the ability to keep up kills per second...and he excels at that until stupid levels, which is why he's one of the best frames for long Survival runs. At the same time, he can also take out strong single targets with FT. Also, FT and BS aren't the same. FT can give you back energy which is helpful with Eximus around for example. And BS is now more of a "get out of jail free" card...just keep it up and only trigger it when you're in trouble. Imo it's not meant to be "just" a damage ability past trash mob levels. 

SS = seeking shuriken...yup.

You can melt entire groups in seconds with SS and a viral AOE weapon. This isn't just me saying all this by the way...some of the chaps who specialize in long endless runs love him too...for good reason: 

 

 

 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Why on earth are frames now measured based on using crappy mods with them??? That's just as stupid as "rating" Oberon without taking Phoenix Renewal into consideration...or decent mods boosting your efficiency. 

If it requires a super specific build to work, then it's not working. But that only applies to BS really, the other abilities require only 1 mod slot (FTeleport or SShuriken) or no mods at all, to be good.

I know that seeking balance in WF is rather pointless as the power creep runs very deep, but that doesn't mean everything needs to be weaved by the meta. That's exactly where the powercreep and broken enemy scaling came from. The proper way to have something balanced, is when it works by default in general content. That is, Starchart and up to no-bs-modifier sorties. Beyond that it's all meta, no longer accountable for balancing, that's broken mechanics vs broken mechanics (or in other words, player cheese vs broken scaling and bs enemies)

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What Ash brings to the team is DAMAGE and the ability to keep up kills per second...and he excels at that until stupid levels, which is why he's one of the best frames for long Survival runs.

I'm not calling into question the damage he brings. I'm calling out is that BS is utter garbage and he needs a masive fix or a replacement.

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FT and BS aren't the same.

Kill target by target. That's their basic function.

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FT can give you back energy which is helpful with Eximus around for example.

FT refunds 50% of it's cost if it kills the target (which is almost always with most weapons). TPs main function is as a gapcloser and assassination tool, FT is only mandatory for it because of the automatic finisher (which should be there by default, though it's not the only case of core mechanics being on augments). The 50% refund and damage boost are the Augment.

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And BS is now more of a "get out of jail free" card...just keep it up and only trigger it when you're in trouble. Imo it's not meant to be "just" a damage ability past trash mob levels. 

From the game:

"Ash goes on a rampage, teleporting to and destroying nearby enemies."

Yeah, I can totally see his main function is "get out of jail free".

Also from the wiki:

"Ash instantly enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, emitting black smoke and seeing the environment in monochrome "

The wording and the visuals imply it's not a thing you keep up all the time, rather a special mode you go when you are about to kick arse en masse. Which doesn't happen because the ability's actual mechanics don't match the freakin description and in-game cues. That's shody lazy design right there, and the reason player feedback exists in current days is to point it out.

And while it does destroy enemies, it takes so freaking long that by then they had respawned already so the effect on the battlefield was null.

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SS = seeking shuriken...yup.

I know, I just enjoy myself pointing out such things. It's also why I name them "SShadow" "SShuriken" and "SScreen". For BS, TP/FT and RS I don't need it :D

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You can melt entire groups in seconds with SS and a viral AOE weapon. This isn't just me saying all this by the way...some of the chaps who specialize in long endless runs love him too...for good reason: 

 

I've used that build. Really nasty on the enemy. Really enjoyed it. Nowadays I run mostly on a standard "everything at 100%" build and can reach those levels just fine with FT and SShuriken, well, not quite, I can reach them, but I mostly play at maximum at 150s. I'm way too bored by then so I just leave.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)Radehx]

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If it requires a super specific build to work, then it's not working.

Says who? Why is that the standard? Because you think so?

Looking at frames while ignoring standard stat mods and augments makes no sense whatsoever. That's like comparing them based on base stats only which is obviously dumb. Ivara needs decent duration and efficiency to keep up her cloak...and you need corrupted mods for that. If you just rate her without those standard (!!!) mods, of course you'll whine that she constantly runs out of energy or that your cloak drops too often getting you killed all the time...but that wouldn't be fair, because she's a total stealth monster with those standard mods. 

It's akin to saying McGregor is a really S#&$ty MMA fighter if you tie both of his hands to his back...makes no sense whatsoever :D

And while I don't think BS is great because the cut scenes get bloody annoying after a while and disrupt game flow...it does exactly what the game description says. It kills stuff on the star chart by teleporting to it. Unless you go to stupid levels, that's exactly what he does...and I don't think it's fair to rate abilities based on endless run level content.

At endgame levels, BS turns into a get out of jail card...but that is the same for a lot of abilities that become less useful at those levels. Saryn's molt is great too until you hit those levels where it simply dies too quickly.

I dunno, I run mostly MOT survivals and imo he's one of the best frames to keep up kills per second with SS and a viral weapon...I don't even fit a dagger anymore and run with a viral/slash Lesion instead. It's pretty fun to play that way and makes you feel like a true ninja, especially with his Koga skin. Solo, I don't know of many frames that can keep up with him in terms of kills per second...and in teams, he can still reliably strip armor of up to 8 enemies casting his 1 just once. And you can spam that like a madman...energy isn't really much of an issue with the SS build.

I agree with you that his 4 isn't great and for what I do, it's really only an "ups, I #*($%%@ up and need a few secs breathing room" ability. And the cut scenes while cool, get old super quick. But he's still a highly efficient frame...especially for high level content. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by (PS4)Radehx

[DatDarkOne]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Ivara needs decent duration and efficiency to keep up her cloak...and you need corrupted mods for that. If you just rate her without those standard (!!!) mods, of course you'll whine that she constantly runs out of energy or that your cloak drops too often getting you killed all the time...but that wouldn't be fair, because she's a total stealth monster with those standard mods. 

Not quite true fellow Tenno.  She doesn't need high duration if you have max efficiency.  She can stay in Prowl a pretty long time with just standard mods.  I have 160% efficiency and 90% duration.  The trick has always been getting more orbs regardless during endless missions.  :D

The changes to Zenurik with the bonuses to energy orbs has changed things in a positive way for channeled abilities like hers that I've strongly considered changing my build to remove Fleeting.  

This will more than likely boost my Ash perma BS mode playstyle as well.  Hehe.  

Funny that some complain about Focus changes, but I get more benefits out of the new Zenurik than I ever did before.  

Honesty time:

When I first started playing Warframe, Ash was my top contender for the Frame to be my main.  He fit all the criteria that I was looking for my intended playstyle.  That was until I saw that luxious arse attached to Ivara.  I still like Ash.  My only mistake was not playing him before her.  With that said,  Ash > Loki.  :D

Please DE, give Ash's BladeStorm the Nier:Automata treatment.  That would be hella awesome.

Edited November 2, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[Nazrethim]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Says who? Why is that the standard? Because you think so?

Looking at frames while ignoring standard stat mods and augments makes no sense whatsoever. That's like comparing them based on base stats only which is obviously dumb. Ivara needs decent duration and efficiency to keep up her cloak...and you need corrupted mods for that. If you just rate her without those standard (!!!) mods, of course you'll whine that she constantly runs out of energy or that your cloak drops too often getting you killed all the time...but that wouldn't be fair, because she's a total stealth monster with those standard mods. 

I actually used her even for sorties with default stats, and still did fine. Of course I wasn't prowling 24/7. I mostly used Cloak Arrow and prowled from place to place (or just created several cloaking fields and rolled between them)

You are confusing Stealth (tactics) with invisibility (tool).

If you rely entirely on mods, you either don't know how to play the game (therefore mods are your crutch) or the frame it's badly designed and doesn't work (Ash isn't quite here, his first 3 abilities work regardless of build, BS is pointless outside of builds that would make Chirrut Îmwe proud.) so the mods are mandatory.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

It's akin to saying McGregor is a really S#&$ty MMA fighter if you tie both of his hands to his back...makes no sense whatsoever :D

It's more like saying the McGregor can rip your spine without needing a mechsuit with nuclear weapons and his opponent tied to a post and already beaten.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

And while I don't think BS is great because the cut scenes get bloody annoying after a while and disrupt game flow...it does exactly what the game description says. It kills stuff on the star chart by teleporting to it. Unless you go to stupid levels, that's exactly what he does...and I don't think it's fair to rate abilities based on endless run level content.

BS is actually outperformed by everything Ash player may have at his disposal (and for levels below 30 that includes Shuriken). BS is a waste of time and energy.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

At endgame levels, BS turns into a get out of jail card...but that is the same for a lot of abilities that become less useful at those levels. Saryn's molt is great too until you hit those levels where it simply dies too quickly.

Same with decoy, though that's more shody design on DE's part. Compare how Snowglobe has health while Gara's glass wall doesn't. While I think Molt having health it's good, it should take percentile damage if it's going to have a somewhat squishy health pool so it stays mostly the same regardless of enemy level. Decoy should flat out be invulnerable as it carries no other use beyond distraction and it's a hologram

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I dunno, I run mostly MOT survivals and imo he's one of the best frames to keep up kills per second with SS and a viral weapon...I don't even fit a dagger anymore and run with a viral/slash Lesion instead. It's pretty fun to play that way and makes you feel like a true ninja, especially with his Koga skin. Solo, I don't know of many frames that can keep up with him in terms of kills per second...and in teams, he can still reliably strip armor of up to 8 enemies casting his 1 just once. And you can spam that like a madman...energy isn't really much of an issue with the SS build.

Again, I'm not saying Ash is bad, he is in fact good. I'm saying that BS is pointless.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I agree with you that his 4 isn't great and for what I do, it's really only an "ups, I #*($%%@ up and need a few secs breathing room" ability. And the cut scenes while cool, get old super quick. But he's still a highly efficient frame...especially for high level content. 

Which you agree on and just use it to get a few seconds of invulnerability, not precisely for it's damage or killing speed. He IS an efficient frame, as long as you never use failstorm (what with it draining more energy the frame has capacity for on just 2-6 dudes)

[Nazrethim]

12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Not quite true fellow Tenno.  She doesn't need high duration if you have max efficiency.  She can stay in Prowl a pretty long time with just standard mods.  I have 160% efficiency and 90% duration.  The trick has always been getting more orbs regardless during endless missions.  :D

The changes to Zenurik with the bonuses to energy orbs has changed things in a positive way for channeled abilities like hers that I've strongly considered changing my build to remove Fleeting.  

And on default Efficiency you can just use a cloak arrows here and there and save some energy. Or spawn the Teeno somewhat safely.

12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Honesty time:

When I first started playing Warframe, Ash was my top contender for the Frame to be my main.  He fit all the criteria that I was looking for my intended playstyle.  That was until I saw that luxious arse attached to Ivara.  I still like Ash.  My only mistake was not playing him before her.  With that said,  Ash > Loki.  :D

I started WF in U14. I made a beeline to him and he's been my main ever since (he dropped from Tyl "Butcher with a Skana and upside down head" Regor back then. The thing is that many think Invisibility (a tool) defines what a frame is. Ivara is a Stealth-oriented huntress and tactician. Loki is a trickster, infiltrator and debuffer. Ash is a melee-riented assassin/skirmisher (good for stealth and taking high priority targets but also good for dealing with troops on the front)

12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Please DE, give Ash's BladeStorm the Nier:Automata treatment.  That would be hella awesome.

Indeed. Though a well made stance could do the trick too. Or just some simple fixes to current BS to make it not terrible

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

The thing is that many think Invisibility (a tool) defines what a frame is.

Too true.  

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Ash is a melee-riented assassin/skirmisher (good for stealth and taking high priority targets but also good for dealing with troops on the front)

This is why I considered him at first.  

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Loki is a trickster, infiltrator and debuffer

Overhyped POS frame.  

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Ivara is a Stealth-oriented huntress and tactician.

This was exactly the playstyle I was wanting as I had fully intended (still do) to play Solo.  I still play the game this way even after 2 years.  I loved doing it in Shadows of Mordor and have been doing it in Warframe too.  hehe.

[(PSN)Radehx]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

 

Overhyped POS frame.  

 

Finally someone who agrees Loki's outclassed by the other stealth frames :D

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)Radehx said:

Finally someone who agrees Loki's outclassed by the other stealth frames :D

I agree too. Mostly because I don't actually see him as a Stealth frame. He doesn't have Invisibility to stealth trough. Sure, you can use it for that (and most do), but his purpose, at least the one that makes sense with his theme, is to keep himself safe while he causes havoc among enemies with decoys, switch teleports and taking everyone's guns (and in the past, arms)

[(PSN)Radehx]

12 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I agree too. Mostly because I don't actually see him as a Stealth frame. He doesn't have Invisibility to stealth trough. Sure, you can use it for that (and most do), but his purpose, at least the one that makes sense with his theme, is to keep himself safe while he causes havoc among enemies with decoys, switch teleports and taking everyone's guns (and in the past, arms)

Some people will murder you for this view :D

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Some people will murder you for this view :D

Let them come.  Ash can melee them while I snipe with Artemis from Dashwire.  Mwuhahahahahaha

edit:  This makes me wonder if Ash can activate BS (or any other abilities) while on a Dashwire.  I never tried it.  Hmmmm

Edited November 2, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[(PSN)Radehx]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Let them come.  Ash can melee them while I snipe with Artemis from Dashwire.  Mwuhahahahahaha

edit:  This makes me wonder if Ash can activate BS (or any other abilities) while on a Dashwire.  I never tried it.  Hmmmm

He can't recast his cloak on dashwire if I remember correctly. 

[Nazrethim]

29 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Let them come.  Ash can melee them while I snipe with Artemis from Dashwire.  Mwuhahahahahaha

edit:  This makes me wonder if Ash can activate BS (or any other abilities) while on a Dashwire.  I never tried it.  Hmmmm

He can't activate Marking mode while on the dashwire, you can activate it before then marking while on the wire, but you can't unleash it unless you step down from the wire. Same happens with Archwing actually. Go to Underwater tileset, activate marking mode before entering water and you will mark enemies while you are on the sharkwing, then you can get out of water and unleash BS on them. I haven't tried with the plains AW launcher, but I suppose the same thing happens. I also believe switching to Operator while marking is active will also mark but I haven' tried.