Lack of Universal Vacuum Hinders Companion Diversity and Pet Updates

[PrimoValkyria]

21 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 What are we even debating here?

Nothing really guess I was wrong. It would be interesting to see the numbers on how making the vacuum mod universal to sentinels affected sentinel use though, as that definitely helps your case. I definitely don't see univac as a necessity or a core mechanic but if you have more usage data from people while the issue is still it hot may swing DE opinion in your favor. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by PrimoValkyria

[DeltaPangaea]

34 minutes ago, PrimoValkyria said:

Okay, from previous posts you are asserted that carriers are still the main choice, so I offered an explanation to why people may use it (now). 

Previous posts were stating the statistic back when Vacuum was Carrier-Exclusive. Back when Vacuum was the only reason to use Carrier, and still 73% DID.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, PrimoValkyria said:

Nothing really guess I was wrong. It would be interesting to see the numbers on how making the vacuum mod universal to sentinels affected sentinel use though, as that definitely helps your case. I definitely don't see univac as a necessity or a core mechanic but if you have more usage data from people while the issue is still it hot may swing DE opinion in your favor. 

 Did I just convince someone? Oh my God, I'm actually gonna cry.

 Seriously tho, DE have all the data, and strapping my tin foil hat on, I assume that if the numbers were against UV they would have released them - since DE were always against vacuum in general.

P.S. Ofc DE isn't a unanimous entity, I understand that.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[MJ12]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:34 AM, zornyan said:

It’s like the game didn’t exist before u10......

Warframe was a very, very different game back then. Everything moved more slowly, there were far fewer resource sinks, and one of the main complaints was that you had rushers going and just rushing through the mission, making it impossible for people who wanted to pick things up and gather resources to actually do so.

Vacuum fixed that problem by allowing you to gather resources on the move.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

Vacuum fixed that problem by allowing you to gather resources on the move.

 And ignore the janitorframe entirely. It's almost like vacuum makes the game better.

[Lemon]

I don't understand how people can be so opposed to at least give us the option of vacuum for kubrows/kavats in mod form. If you think your pets are good without it then keep using them that way, just give people that option at least instead of denying everything. It doesn't matter that pets are sturdy they should still give the option of vacuum, their popularity doesn't even matter at all either. This despite Sentinels being the only thing used in warframe world records.

I fail to understand how this quality of life improvement can receive so much scrutiny when the ability to revive yourself didn't. It removed even further the sense of cooperation and danger from dying, since re-spawning took longer the objectives faced actual peril from an untimely death. This actually caused people i know to loose interest because the game isn't percieved to be difficult at all, it affects the core gameplay in a profound way. But this decision seemed to be made on a whim. It really baffles me.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, Lemon said:

at least

at least that, yup. Even though vacuum on pets would break all pet builds and limit the choice of utility mods. But at least there will be no more janitor simulator gameplay in a game about space ninjas with superpowers.

 Personally tho, I wouldn't even want it to be a mod. Vacuum should be a warframe passive that people could turn off or change the range of in the menu if they want.

Edited November 7, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[PrimoValkyria]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:06 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Did I just convince someone? Oh my God, I'm actually gonna cry.

 Seriously tho, DE have all the data, and strapping my tin foil hat on, I assume that if the numbers were against UV they would have released them - since DE were always against vacuum in general.

P.S. Ofc DE isn't a unanimous entity, I understand that.

I think you did! At this point I also may have to agree with your tin foil, the internal division over there at DE may mean that numbers don't matter and its a question of game design or other unknown factor. They might Hema it up and refuse to change it because so many people invested endo into vacuum mods! 

 

[Educated_Beast]

I'd also like to point out that Iztal is the most favored archwing.  The reason:

 

ITS THIRD ABILITY IS A GIANT VACUUM

 

I've given up on this battle and just do not use pets.  Pets just cannot compete with a sentinal in overall usability in any way shape or form.  Helios is my go-to sentinal.  Total utility bot, don't even bother with damage.  

 

Until the developers realize that we need to pick up loot 100% if the time (and they haven't noticed this fact for years), it's not gonna happen.  

 

Just ignore pets and move on.  They place so many restrictions on then they obviously do not want us using them.  Just respect thier wishes and ignore the pets!

[AperoBeltaTwo]

43 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

I'd also like to point out that Iztal is the most favored archwing.  The reason:

ITS THIRD ABILITY IS A GIANT VACUUM

Itzal has both vacuum AND invisibility. Unfortunately archwing isn't a proper game mode, so it doesn't matter much in the context of the overall game. 

43 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

I've given up on this battle and just do not use pets.  Pets just cannot compete with a sentinal in overall usability in any way shape or form.  Helios is my go-to sentinal.  Total utility bot, don't even bother with damage

 I'd suggest a prisma burst laser build for status, firerate and punchthrough. Strips armor, crowd control with a blast proc or you could put radiation and viral on it if you want for extra carnage. Sentinel guns are seriously underrated. Not all of them are good, but some of them are surprisingly good. Especially with the rivens.

43 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

Until the developers realize that we need to pick up loot 100% if the time (and they haven't noticed this fact for years), it's not gonna happen.  

You need to play the game to understand that if loot isn't picked up the looting system isn't working properly. Players without vacuum are forced to choose between picking up loot the whole mission or actually playing the game. Vacuum solves this problem pretty much perfectly, so people use it all the time. Whenever players don't use vacuum, looting system breaks into janitor simulator (no offence to actual janitors intended).

43 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

Just ignore pets and move on.  They place so many restrictions on then they obviously do not want us using them.  Just respect thier wishes and ignore the pets!

But I like both cats and doggos, and this charger thing looks curious. Yet I couldn't use neither of those for any extended period of time (except huras - invisibility rocks in every game as long as it works properly. I'm looking at you, Shade!), because Warframe without vacuum sux. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Educated_Beast]

14 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

1.  Itzal has both vacuum AND invisibility. Unfortunately archwing isn't a proper game mode, so it doesn't matter much in the context of the overall game. 

2.  I'd suggest a prisma burst laser build for status, firerate and punchthrough. Strips armor, crowd control with a blast proc or you could put radiation and viral on it if you want for extra carnage. Sentinel guns are seriously underrated. Not all of them are good, but some of them are surprisingly good. Especially with the rivens.

3.  You need to play the game to understand that if loot isn't picked up the looting system isn't working properly. Players without vacuum are forced to choose between picking up loot the whole mission or actually playing the game. Vacuum solves this problem pretty much perfectly, so people use it all the time. Whenever players don't use vacuum, looting system breaks into janitor simulator (no offence to actual janitors intended).

But I like both cats and doggos, and this charger thing looks curious. Yet I couldn't use neither of those for any extended period of time (except huras - invisibility rocks in every game as long as it works properly. I'm looking at you, Shade!).

1.  Itzal is used on PoE exclusively for edilon hunting because it's the only way to gaurantee all loot is picked up.  I think it's applicable comparison.  If my frame had it, I wouldn't need to waste archwing charges.

 

2.  I'm aware of status blast/corrosive builds on sentinal.  Problem is, they steal kills if mod for damage and I don't need the status.  The knockdown is nice for some frames but I prefer auto scans and occasional sonar aim spot.  But this thread isn't about comparing sentinals to sentinals.

3.  No argument here.  I've made a thread similar to this over a year ago.  So have many others.  My point is, the developers dont want you to use dogs/cats in battle.  They are for decoration on your ship only.  That's obvious by how they are designed and never changed.  This ain't the first time it's been suggested. 

 

I play the game with my kids and they like dogs to.  I have to break thier heart and explain to them they are worthless and give them a robot instead.  

 

Yes there are some good abilities but none of them are worth losing vacuum (and in my case, free scans) over.  DE will never change it, they are aware, they have been aware for years.  

 

I just gave up and enjoy the game for what it is.  But I wish you the best of luck and hope your the straw that broke the camel's back!  

 

 

[Kimimoto]

On 11/5/2017 at 12:33 PM, Azamagon said:

Really, it isn't. Otherwise, we wouldn't (for example) have reloadspeed mods. Or -recoil mods.

Those aren't QoL? 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

My point is, the developers dont want you to use dogs/cats in battle.  They are for decoration on your ship only.  That's obvious by how they are designed and never changed.  This ain't the first time it's been suggested. 

no-no-no. Absolutely not true. Can't possibly be true. In lots of other games pets are a HUGE sourse of income for the developers - be that cosmetics or useful stuff like mounts and such. Pets are the closest thing to an ingame companion players could ever get. People love them and there's absolutely no reason for animal companions in Warframe not to be just as popular and profitable as in every other online game ... except the lack of universal vacuum. Lack of UV makes pets so unpopular, that DE don't bother updating them. That's what I think. It's just not worth reworking pets when they're used by the players barely 20% of the time on average. 

3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

Yes there are some good abilities but none of them are worth losing vacuum (and in my case, free scans) over.  DE will never change it, they are aware, they have been aware for years.  

I'm actually not so sure. I said it multiple times, but I'm not entirely convinced that DE people on the level of decisionmaking actually play their own game at all. I don't think they're up to speed on what is or what isn't in the game and how different elements of gameplay mesh and work together. I seriously doubt that Steve or Scott even have a personal account they've been playing since the beginning - as they probably should, you know, common sense. So the only way of getting any information about the game for them is through other people. And those other people, depending on their status in the community, might actually be just saying whatever they think the higher-ups would want them to say. It's a typical "tsar didn't know" situation. They simply don't play this game enough and not the same way we do to understand how dramatically vacuum changes the flow of the game. And if they aren't playing their own game, if they don't make this game for themselves up to their own educated tastes - then who are they making this game for? For the sales? For the polls and statistics? For the steam charts? That's what, I believe, is the main problem here.

4 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I just gave up and enjoy the game for what it is.  But I wish you the best of luck and hope your the straw that broke the camel's back!  

I can't enjoy it anymore. For reasons more than one. But thanks anyway, m8.Good luck to you as well.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Those aren't QoL? 

Technically they are QoL as well, but It's just different level of QoL. Vacuum affects and enhances literally everything in Warframe. Compared to other QoL we have in the game it's like a thermonuclear bomb to a bunch of sparklers. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Azamagon]

13 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Those aren't QoL? 

Yes? I think you completely misunderstood me (somehow?).

He said: "Convenience and quality of life should never be a subject of choice in games."
I disagreeingly responded to that with: "Ok, this is just simply not true. Really, it isn't. Otherwise, we wouldn't (for example) have reloadspeed mods. Or -recoil mods."

So, I'm disagreeing with him, saying that we DO have choices in regards to QoL already, and that those choices are perfectly fine. In fact, I personally even find those choices to be some of the more fun customization-options in the game (imo), because they make your weapon FEEL different, rather than just making the numbers that pop up on the screen be bigger.

But, that said, as he responded to you later, vacuum is a far bigger QoL-issue than those other mods (because the difference with or without vacuum is massive). That I can agreed with him on (even if he exaggerates far too much in his examples... again).

Edited November 8, 2017 by Azamagon

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

reloadspeed mods. Or -recoil mods

These increase your power objectively, reloadspeed increases your overall DPS and -recoilmods allow you to get consecutive headshots easier. I'm failing to see how that's QoL? Vacuum doesn't increase your power objectively, it just allows you to collect loot that you wouldn't be able to collect in the same speed.

[Worm4real]

On 10/28/2017 at 2:44 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

For the minority of the people who dislike vacuum

Jesus, is this really the hold up? Just change the Vacuum mod from Sentinel to Sentinel/Companion. Give me a hoover melee weapon, I mean jesus.

It's mind blowing that such an innocuous QoL isn't in because some forum members decided to die on the "loot vacuum negatively impacts my experience" hill. As a new player I was excited to get my Smeeta Kavat I even bought a few genetics from the market since I didn't want to wait and then the lack of vacuum hit me right in the face. Having to run around for the loot just sucks the fun out of the game for me, and if the only thing holding it up is some contrarians on the forum that's just sad.

I mean imagine if Vacuum was a Carrier only ability for a second, after all he's the only unit with a visible vacuum. That'd just be horrible and he'd be the most used sentinel.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Worm4real

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, Worm4real said:

It's mind blowing that such an innocuous QoL isn't in because some forum members decided to die on the "loot vacuum negatively impacts my experience" hill.

Actually, nobody even said anything like that. There wasn't a single person who would say "Universal Vacuum would hurt my gameplay expierience". Not a single one of them said that.

 The points people made against UV ranged from "it's not necessary", "don't be lazy" to "it won't help the pets anyway" and "I'm arguing because there has to be an opposing opinion, guys" (xD).

4 hours ago, Worm4real said:

As a new player

I mean imagine if Vacuum was a Carrier only ability for a second, after all he's the only unit with a visible vacuum. That'd just be horrible and he'd be the most used sentinel.

Wait, you don't know? xD Carrier used to be the only sentinel with Vacuum two years ago. DE revealed the statistics at the time during the Tennocon 2016 and it was 73% of players' Carrier usage. 73% for both Carriers and 27% for all the rest of the companions including the non-vacuum sentinels combined. 

4 hours ago, Worm4real said:

the only thing holding it up is some contrarians on the forum that's just sad.

It's contrarians in the Dev team, m8. Not on the forums. They hate this whole issue and being stubborn about it for years. I can't point any fingers and say who exactly is responsible for this situation, because I don't know, but it's an inner DE problem.

Edited November 9, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Worm4real]

6 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Wait, you don't know? xD Carrier used to be the only sentinel with Vacuum two years ago. DE revealed the statistics at the time during the Tennocon 2016 and it was 73% of players' Carrier usage. 73% for both Carriers and 27% for all the rest of the companions including the non-vacuum sentinels combined. 

I had an inkling of it based on design of the sentinels but I still had to throw that out there.

6 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It's contrarians in the Dev team, m8. Not on the forums. They hate this whole issue and being stubborn about it for years.

It's just like dealing with Blizzard all over again. Well hopefully they pull their heads out of you know where and just look at the stats. I'd love to see any focus grouping on this game where people prefer it with vacuum off. It's just frustrating especially in a game that is so dependent on resources.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, Worm4real said:

I had an inkling of it based on design of the sentinels but I still had to throw that out there.

It's just like dealing with Blizzard all over again. Well hopefully they pull their heads out of you know where and just look at the stats. I'd love to see any focus grouping on this game where people prefer it with vacuum off. It's just frustrating especially in a game that is so dependent on resources.

That's the thing, they have all the stats and still ignore them. Nothing could be done here except keeping the topic alive. And judging by the number of people writing in the threads on UV, topic is very much alive, and I'm yet to hear a single even half-convincing argument against universal vacuum. 

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

Just take Mag's slightly less effective passive give it to all the frames. remove vacuum, not sure what Mags new passive should be. Mag is the only frame capable of saying 'vacuum is worthless' and using a kubro/kavat, which can survive and deal more damage

Edited November 9, 2017 by (XB1)Evilpricetag

[Educated_Beast]

On 11/8/2017 at 1:47 PM, Kimimoto said:

These increase your power objectively, reloadspeed increases your overall DPS and -recoilmods allow you to get consecutive headshots easier. I'm failing to see how that's QoL? Vacuum doesn't increase your power objectively, it just allows you to collect loot that you wouldn't be able to collect in the same speed.

I'd argue vacuum does increase your power significantly compared to pets.  

 

The reason being is energy orbs.  If your out of energy and need to run between a mob of high level grineer and walk right over the orb; compared to super jumping over them all and picking it all up, it can mean difference of killing them versus getting revived.  

 

It not only increases the speed of the game and makes it more fun, it also makes you more powerful.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for 12-15m vacuum inherent on all warframes and ditching the mod completely allowing sentinals more utility and pets unique skills to be used, but DE has something against it.  

 

Not sure what it is, but they know what we want as players in general but don't care and think it's bad for the game.  

 

I'd rather we have vacuum and energy orbs removed than not have it at all.  Just ignoring pets is the crappy compromise...

 

Imagine this - allow us pets and sentinals together.  Take about best of both worlds.

[Kimimoto]

8 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

It not only increases the speed of the game and makes it more fun, it also makes you more powerful.

You can pick up those energy orbs regardless though, that's what makes it QoL. You can't reload faster if you don't have the mod to do so.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Evilpricetag said:

Just take Mag's slightly less effective passive give it to all the frames. remove vacuum, not sure what Mags new passive should be. Mag is the only frame capable of saying 'vacuum is worthless' and using a kubro/kavat, which can survive and deal more damage

Mag's passive is sh*t. It only works during bullet jump and It's unreliable. It will not be a good vacuum, it's just bad. Really bad.

Edited November 10, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

Imagine this - allow us pets and sentinals together.  Take about best of both worlds.

I've heard people talking about this before, and I think Steve mentioned something like this on the devstream. It would be a working solution to the problem for sure. It does kind of feels a bit like overcomplicating the issue that could be fixed way faster and easier at this point. I can't pinpoint why exactly I don't particularly like this solution, but I'll stiil acknowledge that it would definitely work.