Zephyr prime instead of Mirage prime?

[Kuva_Noodle]

Don't get me wrong, Mirage is great, but there are a few things that concern me

1) this is a small nitpick, but it's out of chronological order (This has been done before of course) Zephyr was released first in update 12, and mirage in update 14.

2)

Spoiler

According to the lore, wasn't the original mirage obliterated by sentients? " I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever." - Hidden Messages quest final entry from the lotus

3) The obligatory argument is that Zephyr is in dire need of a rework, as her abilities are lacking in the current state of warframe. (Of course, making a prime variant doesn't mean she gets a rework of, as well as she may get one before her prime variant.)

Of course I have a large amount of bias, I have been playing Zephyr since I joined in 2014, and I was dying to see her primed, unfortunately that seems like it may not be the case now, and I really hope I don't have to wait several more months, (but again I am biased, I figure there's someone that plays Mirage like I do Zephyr).

I want to know what others think, as this is my thoughts, do you think Zephyr should've gone first for prime?

Edited November 3, 2017 by The-Astral-Dragon

[Gabbynaru]

As a Mirage player... Yeah, Zephyr should be primed first, considering her need for a rework. I mean, I doubt Mirage is gonna be reworked in a major way, if at all, she still kicks major arse, even with all the nerfs she got. Meanwhile, Zephyr is really in a dire need of a rework and a lot of love, so, if anything, she should be primed first. I'll be mildly annoyed, cause Mirage gets so little love in terms of looks (Tennogen is out of the question, too poor to consider it), so, I'd love a Mirage Prime just for the looks, but, still, I can wait. Zephyr is in desperate need of care, my selfish needs can wait.

Also, I believe lore wise, the primes are the originals, the normals are just the "Mass market" versions, and that was the one represented in the quest. I might be wrong, but, that's kinda what I gathered from the discussions about primes on here.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Gabbynaru

[Trowicia]

I must've missed something - did a new Prime Warframe get announced recently?

[-Temp0-]

Quote

As a Mirage player... Yeah, Zephyr should be primed first, considering her need for a rework.

That's why releasing it on Christmas makes little sense. She needs too much work for it to be released on holidays basically.

And I really doubt any reasonable amount pf people would want a zephir prime access on their Christmas + we just got Oberon and Hydroid also nowhere near popular frames. It's kinda time for a break.

And seeing the direction of reworks, she will still stay in her poo state. But now she will "scale" lmao.

[Oksanya]

10 minutes ago, Trowicia said:

I must've missed something - did a new Prime Warframe get announced recently?

Not yet, but usually Prime Warframes are released in chronological order, but DE has been known to break their own rules on very few occasions that I can think of, so people are thinking of which frame is going to be primed next, Zephyr or Mirage.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Oksanya

[MuscleBeach]

4 minutes ago, Trowicia said:

I must've missed something - did a new Prime Warframe get announced recently?

I must have missed something too. This post makes it sound like Mirage prime was confirmed. Zephyr is next in line chronologically and not a warframe from a quest (I heard somewhere that quest frames don't get primed but I have no idea where I heard that or if it's even true). 

[Echoes]

I doubt Zephyr Prime will be released before Mirage Prime, since it's likely to be announced for christmas, a better frame will sell better.. also, DE has not the time to rework Zephyr properly, and I don' want a Hydroid 2.0 work on her... she really needs a complete rework.

Also I want DE to take their time reworking this wonderful frame Zephyr is c:

[Kuva_Noodle]

5 minutes ago, Trowicia said:

I must've missed something - did a new Prime Warframe get announced recently?

Sorry, I was moreof speaking based on rumors, no, Mirage is not announced yet but due to her usage, she may be more likely, sorry for the confusion.

 

[MuscleBeach]

1 minute ago, Echoes said:

I doubt Zephyr Prime will be released before Mirage Prime, since it's likely to be announced for christmas, a better frame will sell better.. also, DE has not the time to rework Zephyr properly, and I don' want a Hydroid 2.0 work on her... she really needs a complete rework.

Also I want DE to take their time reworking this wonderful frame Zephyr is c:

I think Mirage needs a proper rework too... Sleight of Hand is the most worthless ability to me. So they're both terrible for Christmas. Besides, no more good simulor spam may have made Zephyr more popular? 

[Oksanya]

1 minute ago, The-Astral-Dragon said:

Sorry, I was moreof speaking based on rumors, no, Mirage is not announced yet but due to her usage, she may be more likely, sorry for the confusion.

 

Mirage will likely come before Zephyr mainly because she won't need that much of a rework to be primed, probably just number tweaks.

[Trowicia]

1 minute ago, Oksanya said:

Not yet, but usually Prime Warframes are released in chronological order, but DE has been known to break their own rules on very few occasions that I can think of, so people are thinking of which frame is going to be primed next, Zephyr or Mirage

Oh, yeah. I kinda forgot about that when they threw in Nova Prime or something as a turn of events.

1 minute ago, The-Astral-Dragon said:

Sorry, I was moreof speaking based on rumors, no, Mirage is not announced yet but due to her usage, she may be more likely, sorry for the confusion.

No worries! I was just genuinely curious because I kept having to step away from my PC during the Devstream earlier and assumed I missed some deets.

[Kuva_Noodle]

1 minute ago, Trowicia said:

Oh, yeah. I kinda forgot about that when they threw in Nova Prime or something as a turn of events.

No worries! I was just genuinely curious because I kept having to step away from my PC during the Devstream earlier and assumed I missed some deets.

Nah, it's speculation at this point, but truth be told, both are in need of reworks, but Zephyr (in my personal opinion) is hurting the worst for that, as really only her first and 3rd ability are useful.
 

 

4 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

I think Mirage needs a proper rework too... Sleight of Hand is the most worthless ability to me. So they're both terrible for Christmas. Besides, no more good simulor spam may have made Zephyr more popular? 

Sleight of hand is just... it's bad, and HoM has a lot of potential for melting CPUs lol

[MuscleBeach]

2 minutes ago, The-Astral-Dragon said:

Sleight of hand is just... it's bad, and HoM has a lot of potential for melting CPUs lol

I think HoM is her only good skill but was poorly implemented. She doesn't feel very trickstery (why is this even a part of her theme? Isn't that loki???). 

Sleight of Hand is useless except as a joke skill. 

The standing in light dark mechanic, while barely flavorful (makes more sense on Equinox who actually implemented light vs dark well), just makes her inconsistent. 

Prism... is ok. I think the main thing I dislike is how it looks. It literally looks like a disco ball. All it needs is to not have its edges smoothed out to be the spherical shape it is. It should look like an actual glass prism. 

 

I think Zephyr needs a little less reworking than Mirage. It's just that Mirage's problems still leave her better off than Zephyr's problems. 

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

I'd love to see Zephyr Prime soon with a serious rework. Also, a "Happy Zephyr Prime" minigame would be funny.

[Shidonia]

Each christmas the popular one gets primed the first such as valkyr or nova mirage is let's be honest even her animation set is more popular than warframe zephyr 

As someone who plays zephyr and loves her I want to see how mirage looked like when she was fighting against the sentient 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Shidonia

[CreamedSoda]

I think most of the problem with Zephyr is the theme of her warframe. You can't do much with "Lol bird." 

[Terrornaut]

Dearly hoping for a rework for Zeph/Zeph prime next.  Was pretty let down that they didn't update her for PoE of all things, and that they've left her in such a forgotten dull state for so long (still play her though). They did remove the chance nonsense from turbulence though.  That was something.

Not going to bother getting into suggestions on what they can do yet again. I just hope this time, their design and implementation is well thought out, effective, and on par with some of the other so-powerful frames that are around now.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 03/11/2017 at 11:44 PM, Trowicia said:

I must've missed something - did a new Prime Warframe get announced recently?

Heh, there's no announcement, just a particular observation from DevStream 101, where they showcased an update to Mirage's 2 that everyone says is her weakest function.

When you think about this... It's pretty suspicious that December's Prime Access is coming up, less than 30 days to go I believe, and the next two frames in 'predicted' order for release are Zephyr and then Mirage, but Mirage is getting an update to her kit now...

I'm somebody that has said this before; December Prime Access is about the sales, not about the predicted order. Nova Prime was released early, knocking Trinity out of order, for... wait for it... the December Prime Access, because she was a very popular frame at the time and because DE had actually quite recently nerfed Trinity again... I can't remember which nerf that was. There have been many.

Back when people started noticing that Zephyr was the next 'predicted' prime after Hydroid, I pointed out this: Plains of Eidolon will take up a lot of time, if DE can release that, then have enough time to rework Zephyr, and then have the time to hype that, then we'll see Zephyr Prime, since the newest updated frame will be selling like hot-cakes, especially if they make her slightly OP for the first month.

If DE don't immediately announce a Zephyr rework after the Plains is released... then it's going to be Mirage, or possibly even the more popular frame Mesa. Lo and Behold! We see a Mirage update instead of a Zephyr one. Annnnnd that's how rumours start.

[Ravenwulfe]

I am always amused by people saying because Frame X was released before Frame Y then Frame X deserves to be primed first. Not even the holy prime release schedule follows this rule as you can see quite clearly that release has jumped all over the place, even by the vaunted Male Male Female Female ordering. While release date has an influence it seems more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule, and it's frequently broken.

[Caelward]

I am curious as to the numbers of people playing Zephyr since they released the Plains though. I wonder if Zephyr has picked up enough playtime due to travel speed and turbulence allowing her to ignore most grineer presence to make a dent on those decisions of who to release next.

[Birdframe_Prime]

48 minutes ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

I am always amused by people saying because Frame X was released before Frame Y then Frame X deserves to be primed first. Not even the holy prime release schedule follows this rule as you can see quite clearly that release has jumped all over the place, even by the vaunted Male Male Female Female ordering. While release date has an influence it seems more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule, and it's frequently broken.

Actually, this is kind of not true. There are only 4 frames that have been released out of order (out of... 18, but still), which are Frost, Nyx, Nova and Valkyr, and they've never broken the m/m/f/f pattern of releases, not once.

The order appears to jump around, but it's mostly because 8 of the primes, more than half of the existing ones, were for frames released simultaneously.

Spoiler

The Predicted Order should have been (allowing for some variance in the Vanilla 8 frames, marked in a different colour)

Excalibur Prime / Rhino Prime
Mag Prime / Ember Prime
Loki Prime / Volt Prime
Trinity Prime / Nyx Prime
Ash Prime / Frost Prime
Saryn Prime / Banshee Prime
Vauban Prime / Nekros Prime
Nova Prime / Valkyr Prime
Oberon Prime / Hydroid Prime

As we see by this Nyx should have come out after Trinity, and Nova should have been way down after Nekros, while Valkyr bumped up one space to push Banshee further back, meanwhile right back at the start, Frost came out as the second actual prime.

The actual release order, out-of-order frames have been underlined.

Excalibur Prime / Frost Prime
Mag Prime / Ember Prime
Rhino Prime / Loki Prime
Nyx Prime / Nova Prime 
Volt Prime / Ash Prime
Trinity Prime / Saryn Prime
Vauban Prime / Nekros Prime
Valkyr Prime / Banshee Prime
Oberon Prime / Hydroid Prime

See, as each frame jumped, it only pushed the next frame down by one, so Frost went up, meaning that Rhino, Loki, Volt and Ash were pushed further down. Tellingly, and what's really supporting the 'predicted order' is that all four of the Male frames after Frost and the vanilla 8 have been in exactly the predicted order, with Vauban, Nekros, Oberon and Hydroid all coming out exactly when they were supposed to.

Meanwhile, with the bias towards the female frame popularity, Nyx and Nova bumped down Trinity to Nova's slot and Saryn down to Banshee's, then Valkyr jumped up to push Banshee down by one again.

For posterity, I'd like to put down the predictions for the next ones:

Zephyr / Mirage
Limbo / Chroma
Mesa / Equinox
Atlas / Wukong
Ivara / Titania
Nezha / Inaros
Octavia / Gara
Nidus / Harrow
Khora / ???

Since Wukong and Nezha messed up the basic release of m/f/m/f patterning we had, it would mean that Nidus is going to come out after Gara, despite Gara being released nine months after him...

But we'll come back to this discussion in another three months, and another, and another and another, so we'll have constant checks to see if any of this ends up being correct.

I mean, ultimately it's kind of funny that all but one of the Male frames have come out in this predicted order, and that the Female frames seem to have all these biased opinions as to their popularity with the fanbase... but at the same time, the predicted order theory isn't ruined by these changes, just... made less reliable.

That's why it's a prediction, not a solid schedule that everyone relies on.

4 minutes ago, Caelward said:

I am curious as to the numbers of people playing Zephyr since they released the Plains though. I wonder if Zephyr has picked up enough playtime due to travel speed and turbulence allowing her to ignore most grineer presence to make a dent on those decisions of who to release next.

You'd be surprised, it's actually a lot of people trying her out initially (so a rise in overall usage) but then a quick drop again as they realise there are lots of better frames. Yes her movement and ranged damage negation is doing well, but the biggest issue from the Plains enemies is the AoE explosions that just ignore Turbulence. You can't do anything against all the mortars, especially with the fact that enemies fire from so far away at targets you might have to defend. Then again, at night there's the Vomvalysts, and their shots seek even through Turbulence, it's upsetting... Even Gara seems to be doing better now that her wall is extendable downwards, and because she has the 90% damage reduction for things in range of her 2.

[Ravenwulfe]

Actually it kind of is.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

Actually it kind of is.

Actually, it's best if you reply so that a person knows you've replied, by either quoting them or @ ing them. And usually with some kind of reply that isn't just a flat refusal of a discussed point. Otherwise it makes you look like you're just trying to get the last word in without them noticing, which is kind of petty.

[Terrornaut]

On 11/18/2017 at 6:19 PM, Thaylien said:

You'd be surprised, it's actually a lot of people trying her out initially (so a rise in overall usage) but then a quick drop again as they realise there are lots of better frames. Yes her movement and ranged damage negation is doing well, but the biggest issue from the Plains enemies is the AoE explosions that just ignore Turbulence. You can't do anything against all the mortars, especially with the fact that enemies fire from so far away at targets you might have to defend. Then again, at night there's the Vomvalysts, and their shots seek even through Turbulence, it's upsetting... Even Gara seems to be doing better now that her wall is extendable downwards, and because she has the 90% damage reduction for things in range of her 2.

is what I'm finding, though I've run into a couple Zeph mains.  There were even a few times I was one of two Zephyrs.  She's still not nearly the best for travelling across the plains, compared to nova with wormhole augment or possibly Volt, or just indulging in DE's horribly/callously/cruelly implemented skywing and using that.

I've...never gotten hit by a Vomb? I didn't know that they did anything besides dash attack until now lol.  They die so fast I didn't think they really did anything.  I kind of wondered why the Grineer even shoot at them (on a mechanical level, we know the grineer are the grineer lol) because I can't recall them doing anything but just kind of, poking their weirdo tribal-mask faces at the Grineer and their business and somehow not dying.

The mortars were hell in PoE before I figured them out and what to look for.  The first few bounties I did I was like, damn, they finally put the War in Warframe, haven't seen that since some Mar's survival when the spawn rates got super ridiculous (they may still?).  The battlefield was so chaotic, but now those things are my first targets no matter what frame I'm on.  If I'm on Zeph though I'm in the air most of the time.  I made a build with aviator (sad to find out it doesn't stack with the other mod, DE allows crazy things but they shut down this one thing that Zeph could have lol), but there's nothing really strong enough to be threatening to Zeph on the plains anyway.  If I get downed on the plains its probably because I blew myself up while sneezing/someone ran in front of it/shooting an enemy in the face knowing full well I will die horribly lol

Gara is just another super powered power creep frame.  Probably not worth comparing her to in ways.  Like, why does she have weapon+aura scaling damage that is likely beyond anyone else's 1, including damage frames' and her 1 is no LoS and she can perma-cc enemies and can pretty much be invulnerable and her ring effect is expandable with range like Ember's Fire Blast used to be before they changed it and can scale her damage and damage multipliers and duration with most of her other abilities and her 4 isn't a horrible liability with explosive weapons like frost's bubble is?  Are they trying new things with synergy and experimenting, or did someone just have a field day and say hey lets give a new frame everything?

Meanwhile, Ember 3, Zephyr 2, Nova 1, Mirage 2 (which is getting an update ty finally) and probably some other frames that have 3/4 of a useful kit.  Any other worst/useless abilities out there?  What happened?

...yeah this turned into a gara rant, but, oh well, a well built and played one can still enable me to do great things, which may be all that DE cares about.

[Arkenai7]

On 11/18/2017 at 11:19 PM, Thaylien said:

the biggest issue from the Plains enemies is the AoE explosions that just ignore Turbulence. You can't do anything against all the mortars, especially with the fact that enemies fire from so far away at targets you might have to defend. Then again, at night there's the Vomvalysts, and their shots seek even through Turbulence, it's upsetting...

Actually, I think with the mortars it's more just that Zephyr can't deflect them far enough away for them to not hurt her. You can deflect the mortars with a range build - though, of course, that's not typically what you have on Zephyr.

 

The Vomvalyst thing is just sad though. Blatant projectiles just completely ignoring Zeph's defence... 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arkenai7