Why I Dislike the Operator

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Dornez said:

But none of those have anything to do with the operator gameplay, those are focus nodes that you must use operator in order to activate.

I use operator for 2 things right now, breaking eidolon shields...because I have to

and creating energy bubbles to recharge my warframes energy.

 

So operators are a glorified energy pizza that I have to press. 5 + Ctrl+space + 5 to activate

 

In all ways warframe gameplay is more fun and engaging, operators are only there because there are a few things that only operators can do because DE forces us to use them. 

 

 

EDIT: Inb4 operator only missions pop up. 

Worse still, people are APPLAUDING Invisibility, healing and recharge for all via Operator... forgetting that you're invalidating the kits of WARFRAMES in doing things like this. It's actually BAD for the game as a whole.

But yeah...all this talk about buffs and passives as if it's GAME PLAY. It's not. And the actual game play of Operator mode is lacking.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

The thing about Subjectivity and Objectivity is that people claim something is objectively wrong and must be fixes while in reality it's just a subjective opinion. Base an argument to change something by saying it's broken and wrong as an fact is different than state that you don't like it and you would like it different. (btw, congrats on your post, was much better writen than the one I pointed out before)

That said, lets go over your points. You think it's terrible to have options outside of scope of the selected Warframe, I myself think it's great. It gives you more diversity. E.g. you can go in a defense mission as any Warframe and still be able to protect the an objective, instead of having to go as Frost or Limbo or Gara.

Also, I never said the Operators are something you need as "a specific toolset to complete each task". In the exemple above, you can just go Frost and never touch the Operator, or you can go Harrow if you want and use the Operator to protect the objetive.

You argue about refining the tools you have instead of acquiring new ones, but that would also apply to new Warframes would it not? If this is a problem, we have 34 different Warframes, why are Operators the only ones getting complains? Why aren't you complaining about Khora for exemple? She is a new tool too after all.

Focus/Operators gives DE a great place to expand, not only lore wise, but mechanicly wise. Imagine if, in the future, Operator's attacks/Void Damage bypasses Armor? Imagine if the next quest expands the Focus even more and grants us more possibilities? I myself think Operators are in a good place right now, but more important than that, they are in a position they can keep growing if DE want's too

My point regarding opinions is that it's cumbersome to stop every other line (or every other post) and disclaimer it as an opinion. There should be a mutual understanding that in spite of an authoritative tone (e.g., x is broken and must be fixed,) the statement is still an opinion and needs to be justified. It's like how statements of "we" should be assumed to apply only to like-minded individuals. I only bring this up because these "you don't speak for me" squabbles and "well that's just like, your opinion, man" jabs get in the way of progressing the discussion. These should be taken for granted.

My point about diversity is that covering for a lack of a specific frame indirectly justifies the creation of objectives that require specific frames. Yes, Operators allow players to be more flexible in terms of Warframe choice. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't NEED to.

My point about specific toolsets was not based off of anything specific you said, and instead ties into the previous point I was making. If you NEED a Frost/Limbo/Gara (Nekros works well, too) to complete a Defense, or any other Frame to complete any other objective, what value is there in diversity? It just expands the checklist of tools players need to collect to face a variety of challenges, and that makes Operators a band-aid for that problem at best. In my mind's eye, Warframes should each allow players to complete any objective in a different method based on playstyle preference.

Regarding new Warframes as new tools: Warframes are not end-game content. Every Warframe is available for use at the beginning at the game (whereas you can't pay plat to unlock your Operator). In that sense, it's apples to oranges. Warframes are currently treated as tool sets, yes, but what I'm saying is that they should be treated as playstyles and that Operators should be used to further accent/enhance those playstyles. Instead, Operators constitute a gameplay paradigm shift that further enables the restrictive and arbitrary system we currently have... Which makes me rather dissatisfied with them.

Similarly, making Void beam bypass armor (as appropriate as that sounds) is side-stepping the issue of armor scaling and DE will only put in enough effort to get people to stop complaining about Focus before effectively abandoning it for the next new exciting thing... Just like they've done with Invasions, Dark Sectors, Archwing, etc.

They implement changes to make those systems less annoying, but rarely expand upon them or further integrate them into the game experience. I expect Focus to get the same treatment in short order.

I agree that Operators are decently functional (barring the grind), but I disagree that they add anything uniquely valuable.

Edit: replying on break at work, so further responses delayed.

Edited November 8, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Klavinmour]

7 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Worse still, people are APPLAUDING Invisibility, healing and recharge for all via Operator... forgetting that you're invalidating the kits of WARFRAMES in doing things like this. It's actually BAD for the game as a whole.

But yeah...all this talk about buffs and passives as if it's GAME PLAY. It's not. And the actual game play of Operator mode is lacking.

Except it doesn't invalidate anything.
You're just taking any excuse you can get your hands on to hate the Tenno.

As has been mentioned many times over and over in this threat, Tenno offer diversity. (buffs and passives ARE game play, you wouldn't be trying to say they are if they come from a Warframe, like Harrow's 4 or Rhino's 2/3)
They give you the choice to take any Warframe you want into any mission you want.
Gara has amazing defense powers, but lacks energy sustain, I'll take Zenurik on my Tenno letting me go as long as I want in defense. This doesn't invalidate an EV Trinity or Harrow (it does invalidate the energy regen aura but to be fair it hasn't been relevant in like 3 years because it's so weak and pathetic) because you're going solo, or if you're not going solo it lets the players that would normally go Trinity or Harrow something else that they will enjoy doing rather than being a slave to your energy requirements as a large portion of the community treats Trinity players.
And screw it I'm not giving more examples because you've literally been given hundreds already that you refuse to accept and ignore because doing so benefits your closed mindedness, so I'm just going to focus on your hypocrisy and ignorance instead.

[InDueTime-EN-]

 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

But hey... Operators make this ABSOLUTELY SUCK just a little less, so that's good, right?

Do you see the problem? Literally everything the operator does, just makes bad systems with arbitrary limits and ridiculous restrictions slightly less awful than they already are.

Wait.. You hate them because they make a few things better? what do you want them to do? Make them worst?

 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

O2 in Survival, in Stealth. Itself a miserable, unfun mechanic that has far out lived it's usefulness, Operators make the rare necessity of using O2 towers suck less. They don't make it good, or fun; just less bad.

I don't see the need to use an operator in this situation. I guess you can do it in void mode to avoid damage but if you take the operator out of the equation there are plenty of ways to avoid damage. The operator gives you an alternative. Can't see why that's bad. 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Kuva: Only good for one BP and Riven, which are gated behind Sorties. Which are awful, tedious chores full of ridiculous limitations and sponges with one shot kill weapons. And with a HORRIBLE drop rate to boot. 

Not the least bit interested. But if I were? Getting Kuca sucks. Getting Rivens sucks. Unveiling Rivens ABSOLUTELY SUCKS. But hey, having the Operator, makes this Festival of Tedium a little less terrible.

Well. let's say that we remove the operator from this situation as well. You now have to ground slam the kuva guards and bullet jump through them to remove their weapons. You  have to bullet jump to get the kuva too. How does that improve the main issue that you mention which is Riven Drop rate and Kuva amount. 

 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Teralyst: Finally a big, bad, Borderlands style Monster. One I'd love to chip away at with my powerful frame and weapons, that I worked hard to Forma and trick out.. finally, a big, bad END GAME MONSTER...

Technically, you can just let other players deal with the Teralyst while you wait for the shields  to go down. You can just be supporting from the background.

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

That throws all my time, effort and work RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW by FORCING Operator/Quill grind just to take down it's shield.

This is almost a valid argument except for the fact that you still need all that equipment you spent all your time on to deal damage to the teralyst. 

 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

If i dislike the Operator, its because DE has TAUGHT me to dislike the Operator. Its not enough that it's an awkward, slow, creepy child murderer that's taken months of Dev time away from the reasons I love this game.

The ONLY purpose it serves in the game, is to make terrible systems suck a little less. So tell me: why SHOULD we like it? Because the things it was created to help with, STILL SUCK...albeit, maybe just a little less now.

I guess, I can't ask you to like the operators, but if you hate them so much there is an option of only using them for the buffs and nothing else. You don't have to run around with it, no one is forcing you to do that either. 

A lot of people are saying that they are being forced to use the operators, but that's only in specific situations like the kuva siphon and Teralyst. Aside from those 2 things you're not required to use them. AND if you don't like the operators I don't see why you'd need to fight the teralyst since all it gives you is progress towards focus and the operator. 

So basically just Kuva if you need it for riven and there you can just rely on your fellow Tenno. 

I understand why some people hate them, but if you're gonna tell me that you hate something because it makes another thing slightly better I'm gonna question your reasoning. It's like saying you don't like ketchup because it makes hotdogs taste better. I mean.. what? Now if you say that you don't like ketchup because it tastes too sour for you, then I could accept that. 

[Fleuria]

On 11/7/2017 at 6:13 PM, OfficialFrogvara said:

Although, as much as I like the Operators, it's concerning to see how many people feel the opposite way. I hope they won't drive the player base away like this, especially seeing that they are something that keeps me interested in the game.

Hopefully most people realize that people who like a game tend to play it while people who dislike a game tend to complain about it, instead. This biases forum comments quite a lot, and you can see this issue with almost any game that gets wide exposure.

[DiabolusUrsus]

11 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

Except it doesn't invalidate anything.
You're just taking any excuse you can get your hands on to hate the Tenno.

As has been mentioned many times over and over in this threat, Tenno offer diversity. (buffs and passives ARE game play, you wouldn't be trying to say they are if they come from a Warframe, like Harrow's 4 or Rhino's 2/3)
They give you the choice to take any Warframe you want into any mission you want.
Gara has amazing defense powers, but lacks energy sustain, I'll take Zenurik on my Tenno letting me go as long as I want in defense. This doesn't invalidate an EV Trinity or Harrow (it does invalidate the energy regen aura but to be fair it hasn't been relevant in like 3 years because it's so weak and pathetic) because you're going solo, or if you're not going solo it lets the players that would normally go Trinity or Harrow something else that they will enjoy doing rather than being a slave to your energy requirements as a large portion of the community treats Trinity players.
And screw it I'm not giving more examples because you've literally been given hundreds already that you refuse to accept and ignore because doing so benefits your closed mindedness, so I'm just going to focus on your hypocrisy and ignorance instead.

I'm making a different point, but don't you think that if certain Frames need Operators to compensate for massive flaws like an inability to sustain ability use or recover health reliably that points to larger inherent flaws with those systems?

If Operators are necessary for build diversity and flexible character choice that's a problem with Warframe as a whole, not a laudable benefit to be attributed to Operators.

[Klavinmour]

7 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm making a different point, but don't you think that if certain Frames need Operators to compensate for massive flaws like an inability to sustain ability use or recover health reliably that points to larger inherent flaws with those systems?

If Operators are necessary for build diversity and flexible character choice that's a problem with Warframe as a whole, not a laudable benefit to be attributed to Operators.

Every Warframe has in built design flaws such as no healing, high ability costs etc.
Especially since certain builds for certain Warframes makes these issues heavier.

The game is designed to encourage you to play with a full group of 4 people.
In this full group an ideal situation is that you would be each player a Warframe that compliments the downsides of the others.
Such as if you have Mag or Nova you'll have a Warframe like Trinity or Harrow to give energy.

Tenno as the Devs want them to be are to compliment your Warframe and seamlessly blend in with your standard combat.
So naturally their best way to do this is to act as choices to expand your combat direction.

No they aren't necessary, they are still very useful, and a design feature of the game can't be a problem if it's intentional.

[Lynxh]

58 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm making a different point, but don't you think that if certain Frames need Operators to compensate for massive flaws like an inability to sustain ability use or recover health reliably that points to larger inherent flaws with those systems?

I'd like to direct you to any other game that features class systems or in fact any game that offers multiple play styles, and the fact that in any of those cases you will have downsides to which ever you pick.

Not every frame needs HP recover abilities, considering this to be a large flaw makes no sense in the context of offering playstyle and class variety in a multiplayer setting. As long as they have other ways of completing a game's content. And as far as Warframe goes, there isn't a frame with which you cannot do all the content with, in particular due to it's mainly multiplayer setting.

The fact that we DO have the ability to compensate a bit for our frames downsides is not a flaw, but a luxury. It makes things a lot more easier if you invest in these options. You don't need the focus system, or the HP regen sentinel setup. it does however make things smoother.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Lynxh
typosss's

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

Every Warframe has in built design flaws such as no healing, high ability costs etc.
Especially since certain builds for certain Warframes makes these issues heavier.

The game is designed to encourage you to play with a full group of 4 people.
In this full group an ideal situation is that you would be each player a Warframe that compliments the downsides of the others.
Such as if you have Mag or Nova you'll have a Warframe like Trinity or Harrow to give energy.

Tenno as the Devs want them to be are to compliment your Warframe and seamlessly blend in with your standard combat.
So naturally their best way to do this is to act as choices to expand your combat direction.

No they aren't necessary, they are still very useful, and a design feature of the game can't be a problem if it's intentional.

The only time an Operator is useful is when our frames are intentionally gimped in order to force Operator game play, such as Kuva and Teralyst shields.

Operators only role is to make terrible, I'll conceived mechanics suck slightly less. At no point was any thought given to actually making the Operator game play fun and engaging. Instead, it was minimum viable product and forced use, so DE could turn around and say "look how many people are using this" while pretending that the bulk of said use was anything other than Zenurik Dashing or forced game play.

Edited November 9, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

1. Every Warframe has in built design flaws such as no healing, high ability costs etc.
Especially since certain builds for certain Warframes makes these issues heavier.

2. The game is designed to encourage you to play with a full group of 4 people.
In this full group an ideal situation is that you would be each player a Warframe that compliments the downsides of the others.
Such as if you have Mag or Nova you'll have a Warframe like Trinity or Harrow to give energy.

3. Tenno as the Devs want them to be are to compliment your Warframe and seamlessly blend in with your standard combat.
So naturally their best way to do this is to act as choices to expand your combat direction.

No they aren't necessary, they are still very useful, and a design feature of the game can't be a problem if it's intentional.

1. Examples, please, because Trinity/Harrow already blow the consistency of that assertion out of the water, and I can't think of any Warframes that diverge significantly from the 25/50/75/100 convention specifically to balance for relative power.

2. If the game is designed around full-team cooperative play, why are so many quests implemented solo-only? Furthermore, if the game is designed such that teammates are supposed to be the go-to solution for covering weaknesses, Operators arguably devalue your teammates. It seems rather hypocritical to present that as a good thing.

3. I'm not really saying otherwise. I'm saying that specific character/build choice shouldn't be "required" in the first place, so it's meaningless to say that Operators "allow" users to pick different frames like it's a good thing.

Simply put, Warframe is not consistent with its approach to cooperation and team-play, and meaningful balance in terms of Frame kits is essentially nonexistent.

It's an issue of haves and have-nots, and I'm saying that there should not be any have-nots when it comes to energy economy and other fundamental resources. It's not reasonable to demand specific team compositions when standard matchmaking dumps players into groups without regard to their chosen character.

Obviously, carefully crafted teams will always outperform randoms, but the existence of random matchmaking suggests that exact team composition should not be relevant to potential success. Thus, if Operators are what make that true then there are more endemic problems that need to be addressed.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Lynxh said:

I'd like to direct you to any other game that features class systems or in fact any game that offers multiple play styles, and the fact that in any of those cases you will have downsides to which ever you pick.

Not every frame needs HP recover abilities, considering this to be a large flaw makes no sense in the context of offering playstyle and class variety in a multiplayer setting. As long as they have other ways of completing a game's content. And as far as Warframe goes, there isn't a frame with which you cannot do all the content with, in particular due to it's mainly multiplayer setting.

The fact that we DO have the ability to compensate a bit for our frames downsides is not a flaw, but a luxury. It makes things a lot more easier if you invest in these options. You don't need the focus system, or the HP regen sentinel setup. it does however make things smoother.

 

Warframe is NOT a class-based game, and the devs have rejected the notion of sorting Warframes into anything resembling rigid classes.

Consequently, you cannot reasonably suggest that any Warframe lacking basic resources like a sustainable energy economy isn't a problem.

I'm not saying every frame needs to have a healing ability, but saying "Operators let you not take Trinity" points to what I would consider a problem... Because you shouldn't need Trinity.

As I said earlier, certain team compositions will obviously be more powerful, but exact composition should still be largely irrelevant. If Operators are what make it truly irrelevant, that's not really a good thing.

I'm not saying Operators aren't useful or don't help flexibility. My complaint is that they're largely an assortment of band-aids locked behind half the game and an enormous grind.

[racooperii]

Not going to lie, just built the T1 Amp and...Operator is actually pretty fun for entirely different reasons than a frame. Now I really want the reword for Focus to come along and really put my mute alien child to work.

[krc473]

Just now, racooperii said:

Not going to lie, just built the T1 Amp and...Operator is actually pretty fun for entirely different reasons than a frame. Now I really want the reword for Focus to come along and really put my mute alien child to work.

Not central to the thread. But: T1 Scaffold with T2 Prism makes for a fun amp. High damage laser (secondary) with Arca Plasmor shot (Primary).

 

I have found that the operator is entirely different with a good Amp and some arcanes. Yes, old operator (Focus 1.x) was not fun. Focus 2.0 Operator is great.

- Vazarin school helps. You get damage shields then.

[UltraLYT]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:44 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Moving. It's faster at moving. Nobody is saying you should abandon your frame and just use the operator for the whole mission. That's stupid, unless you're just doing it to challenge yourself. There's a reason you can switch between them.

Exactly, nobody is saying you should abandon your frame for the whole mission, and obviously I was actually implying it is stupid to do so, then why did you claim Void Dash is faster than Volt (the character for the whole mission) and promote it is a fact?  Just for the sake of arguing around the velocity of a very brief straight line movement?  Then Ash or Loki's teleport is much faster and much farther, and can actually achieve various important tasks. 

Void Dash is faster (than Volt) at moving?  For how far?  I have already maxed Mind Sprint, I know how far it could get.

Edited November 9, 2017 by modalmojo

[DiabolusUrsus]

7 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Not central to the thread. But: T1 Scaffold with T2 Prism makes for a fun amp. High damage laser (secondary) with Arca Plasmor shot (Primary).

 

I have found that the operator is entirely different with a good Amp and some arcanes. Yes, old operator (Focus 1.x) was not fun. Focus 2.0 Operator is great.

- Vazarin school helps. You get damage shields then.

Aside from the night-and-day difference between mote and custom, the thing that bothers me most about amps is that they turn Void Beam into just another gun with certain arbitrary uses for specific enemies.

I wish they were more distinct.

[racooperii]

6 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Aside from the night-and-day difference between mote and custom, the thing that bothers me most about amps is that they turn Void Beam into just another gun with certain arbitrary uses for specific enemies.

I wish they were more distinct.

Yeah I wish the arbitrary limitation of having to use Void beam was removed as a Gate from Eidolon hunting, instead it should have a boost to the damage done to Eidolon Shields and body parts(I mean, Operators by lore are supposed to have a huge advantage on Sentients right?). 

They have a good sound and the T1 primary/secondary is pretty good.

[DreamsmithJane]

57 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

Exactly, nobody is saying you should abandon your frame for the whole mission, and obviously I was actually implying it is stupid to do so, then why did you claim Void Dash is faster than Volt (the character for the whole mission) and promote it is a fact?  Just for the sake of arguing around the velocity of a very brief straight line movement?  Then Ash or Loki's teleport is much faster and much farther, and can actually achieve various important tasks. 

Void Dash is faster (than Volt) at moving?  For how far?  I have already maxed Mind Sprint, I know how far it could get.

Because it's a fact. It's not a choice between using a warframe for the whole mission or using your operator for the whole mission, so I don't know why you keep fixating on that "whole mission" line. You use both, and using the operator makes everyone faster than Volt. USE BOTH. Operator is faster. Then use any frame, and you're still faster than Volt.

Ash and Loki require a target. Ash has a 60m base range and can't create targets. Loki has to cast an extra ability to create a target, and that ability has infinite range while his teleport does not. But this isn't even the point. Someone said they have a Volt to go fast, so they don't need the operator. I said operator is faster than Volt. And it is.

"How far?" With maxed Mind Sprint, you already know you get 26.4 meters per dash (or if you didn't know the number, it's 12m base times 2.2). With 3 dashes, that's just under 80 meters. With Void Flow and Void Siphon, you get 7 dashes, for ~185 meters, and that regenerates every few seconds. If you dash through enemies, you refill your energy and get even more dashes. And it doesn't have to be a straight line. It's multiple separate dashes.

It's by no means the only way to go fast. But it's one of the best, it's available to every frame, and doesn't require a specific build.

[racooperii]

20 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Because it's a fact. It's not a choice between using a warframe for the whole mission or using your operator for the whole mission, so I don't know why you keep fixating on that "whole mission" line. You use both, and using the operator makes everyone faster than Volt. USE BOTH. Operator is faster. Then use any frame, and you're still faster than Volt.

Ash and Loki require a target. Ash has a 60m base range and can't create targets. Loki has to cast an extra ability to create a target, and that ability has infinite range while his teleport does not. But this isn't even the point. Someone said they have a Volt to go fast, so they don't need the operator. I said operator is faster than Volt. And it is.

"How far?" With maxed Mind Sprint, you already know you get 26.4 meters per dash (or if you didn't know the number, it's 12m base times 2.2). With 3 dashes, that's just under 80 meters. With Void Flow and Void Siphon, you get 7 dashes, for ~185 meters, and that regenerates every few seconds. If you dash through enemies, you refill your energy and get even more dashes. And it doesn't have to be a straight line. It's multiple separate dashes.

It's by no means the only way to go fast. But it's one of the best, it's available to every frame, and doesn't require a specific build.

Its also very limited to linear movement, its fast but not agile. A MAX POWER SPEED Volt can run circles, slide, roll/dodge in meaningful ways while the Operator can only dash in a series of straight lines.

So while it may be faster, it is only so in a very limited capacity.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, racooperii said:

Its also very limited to linear movement, its fast but not agile. A MAX POWER SPEED Volt can run circles, slide, roll/dodge in meaningful ways while the Operator can only dash in a series of straight lines.

So while it may be faster, it is only so in a very limited capacity.

It's not limited to linear movement. It's not one dash. It is, as you said, "a series of straight lines", then end result being the ability to maneuver in almost any terrain. I have 4 dashes in my energy pool, and it's already very agile. Max Void Flow gives you up to 7, plus more if you hit enemies. It also doesn't require contact with the ground to reach maximum speed, and can move vertically with equal speed. If someone goes down 40 meters away, it takes me about a second to bullet jump into the air, void dash straight onto them, and start reviving. Oh, and void dash doesn't amplify my momentum and send me sliding off the edge of the map. XD

Edited November 10, 2017 by DreamsmithJane

[DiabolusUrsus]

51 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It's not limited to linear movement. It's not one dash. It is, as you said, "a series of straight lines", then end result being the ability to maneuver in almost any terrain. I have 4 dashes in my energy pool, and it's already very agile. Max Void Flow gives you up to 7, plus more if you hit enemies. It also doesn't require contact with the ground to reach maximum speed, and can move vertically with equal speed. If someone goes down 40 meters away, it takes me about a second to bullet jump into the air, void dash straight onto them, and start reviving. Oh, and void dash doesn't amplify my momentum and send me sliding off the edge of the map. XD

Even without augments to energy pool, the difference is noticeable.

Still, given what you are saying is true that kind of puts Volt's speed in a bad spot, similar to Excal's Super Jump relative to parkour 2.0.

[DeltaPangaea]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

Even without augments to energy pool, the difference is noticeable.

Still, given what you are saying is true that kind of puts Volt's speed in a bad spot, similar to Excal's Super Jump relative to parkour 2.0.

ALL actual-speed things are kind of put in a bad spot, because bulletjumping is the go-to for moving fast and doesn't care. You have to put significant resources into FAST or have an ability you can crank up like Speed before you can even keep up with someone just doing the slide-bulletjump-doublejump-roll-slide rigmarole.

[Nez-Kal]

I love my Operator. I love my (maybe Lore Friendly, maybe not) Backstory I've built up for them based on the choices I picked in the War Within quest.

I love to take them out and run around.

 

I love getting new cosmetics for them and having them wear them for 2 days, before going back to my Operator's normal story "Looks".

 

I love that Operators gave me something to, I don't know, invest over. To build up, and hone, and not just forma 3 times and be done with them. True, I wish it wasn't so time consuming and difficult, but honestly I Love the fact that I can run 30% faster now while having Zenurik's powers (working on the Void Dash now).

 

My Operator is what I Love about Warframe. A game that use to be just an awesome little shooter that I was sure I'd drop sometime in the next year, but I held onto because I began to build an emotional investment, something worth more than the $900+ dropped into it already.

 

And as it has been mentioned before, I Love that my Operator can work together in a Tag Team match with any Warframe I pick. I literally think "There's my Operator!" when I manage a two part combo move with my Frame and Operator together. For me, it feels good using them.....the problem is, it just takes a while (perhaps Way too Long a while) to finally use them to this Teir 2 Amp and 3 million Focus total level, but I have faith that DE will do their best to make this feeling I have using my Operator more easily accessible to newer players, so they can legitimately have fun with them too (And not just suffer for too long, and drop them).

 

(On an off shoot, I do feel like DE is afraid or something of upping the Operator's Damage output sometimes, or removing Damage Reduction by Armor and such from Void Damage....cause I guess if Operators somehow become Meta Play, that would be unfair to Pre-Second Dream + War Within Players?)

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, DeltaPangaea said:

ALL actual-speed things are kind of put in a bad spot, because bulletjumping is the go-to for moving fast and doesn't care. You have to put significant resources into FAST or have an ability you can crank up like Speed before you can even keep up with someone just doing the slide-bulletjump-doublejump-roll-slide rigmarole.

What actual speed things are you referring to beyond Speed? Sprinting has ALWAYS been in a bad spot due to stamina/coptering, so I've given up hope that there will be a compelling reason to use it beyond not wanting to bother with the more complex inputs.

Don't get me wrong; I'd like for sprinting to be more useful, but I don't think it's currently a major consideration.

[DeltaPangaea]

28 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

What actual speed things are you referring to beyond Speed? Sprinting has ALWAYS been in a bad spot due to stamina/coptering, so I've given up hope that there will be a compelling reason to use it beyond not wanting to bother with the more complex inputs.

Don't get me wrong; I'd like for sprinting to be more useful, but I don't think it's currently a major consideration.

Pretty much anything that involves sprinting. Rush. Sprint Boost (Even though it'd STILL be a subpar choice this makes it even more of one). Armored Agility squeaks by into commonly used with the armor bonus.

These things aren't BAD per se, but their usefulness in just getting from A to B is HEAVILY diminished by the aforementioned bulletjump combos.

Sprinting at high speed does feel infinitely better than buttoncomboing my way around the place though. Although this is getting very offtopic from Operators and them being terrible.

Rar! Potatoes! Boring Children! Deception of Investment! Removal of Tension!

[Klavinmour]

7 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Examples, please, because Trinity/Harrow already blow the consistency of that assertion out of the water, and I can't think of any Warframes that diverge significantly from the 25/50/75/100 convention specifically to balance for relative power.

2. If the game is designed around full-team cooperative play, why are so many quests implemented solo-only? Furthermore, if the game is designed such that teammates are supposed to be the go-to solution for covering weaknesses, Operators arguably devalue your teammates. It seems rather hypocritical to present that as a good thing.

3. I'm not really saying otherwise. I'm saying that specific character/build choice shouldn't be "required" in the first place, so it's meaningless to say that Operators "allow" users to pick different frames like it's a good thing.

Simply put, Warframe is not consistent with its approach to cooperation and team-play, and meaningful balance in terms of Frame kits is essentially nonexistent.

It's an issue of haves and have-nots, and I'm saying that there should not be any have-nots when it comes to energy economy and other fundamental resources. It's not reasonable to demand specific team compositions when standard matchmaking dumps players into groups without regard to their chosen character.

Obviously, carefully crafted teams will always outperform randoms, but the existence of random matchmaking suggests that exact team composition should not be relevant to potential success. Thus, if Operators are what make that true then there are more endemic problems that need to be addressed.

There are a lot of Warframes that ignore the 25/50/75/100 model, for example my Valkyr has a LOT of efficiency and her 2 still costs more than 50 (I think 55 which usually has me sitting in bad spots) Nidus outright breaks this by his 3 and 4 costing Stacks rather than energy.

Oh man, I dunno why are quests solo?
Could it be that lore is personal? Quest story is PERSONAL?
In Destiny/Destiny 2 you can play the entire campaign co-op, you know what happens when you do that? The players don't pay attention to the STORY.
And I'm sure players would love sitting in the background during the end of the Second Dream while the host chooses their choices in dialog.

Depending on what you want to do, specific build choices are required.
Do you want to fight level 140 enemies? Well you're not gonna unless if you put together specific team compositions.
Which can be quite variable depending on what you bring, if all four members bring Corrosive Projection you wont need armour stripping Warframes and corrosive damage on your weapons.
Not needing corrosive damage allows you to get Viral or Radiation.