"The Second Dream" is more like "The Second Nightmare"

[Luku_]

I returned to Warframe after a long break and discovered a lot of cool new stuff. One of those were interesting quests I enjoyed a lot. Until today. Today I finished The Second Dream and lost almost all interest in the story. Let me point out what happened:

 

Before "The Second Dream":

- game was about this incredible sci-fi space ninjas - biomechanical entities caught up in other factions war.

- I didn't know a lot about them but knew that they were brave, strong and relentless. They risked their life (or existence in case they don't have lives) to get the job done.

- They could change form from one to another thanks to some weird technology. I didn't care how - I don't know how it worked - just like i don't know this games space travel stuff.

 

After "The Second Dream":

- I found out that I play as some emo 12-13 year old child dressed by default in some sort of sado-maso suit (you like kids looking like that?)

- kid is a weakling even for someone his age - can't even walk or hold a pistol

- just sitting in spaceship playing with his warframe toys - no real risk to his life involved

- i can't even pretend it didn't happen because he lives on my ship (taking valuable cargo space)

 

Dear devs i don't want to play a kid that plays games. Not interested. Lived life like that when i was a kid - for me that's enough. I agree that someone might have fun with game like that but why did You have to force everybody to change from warframes to kids?

So my main feedback and my only question is:

How do I move that stowaway to airlock and beyond?

 

PS. Sorry if I made some mistakes - english is not my native language.

[Terrornaut]

This is honestly entirely hilarious and I don't mean to make light of your opinion, but the rundown and summary, which is probably true enough, is just done in a funny way.  Thanks lol

But yeah this was a large sentiment of many. I'm fine with the concept.  Hell The second dream quest was the only moment in a video game I've ever cried lol, but ...they're here to stay.

[Vox_Preliator]

Disable transmissions and put up your hood.  You are now a Warframe with a deployable sub-android designed specifically to channel and manipulate raw Void energy. 

Alternatively, get over it.  All the whining about "emo teens" around here is far more immature, petty, and annoying than any teen I've ever met, and magnitudes worse than the Operators.

[Kashuken]

It is exactly how i feel.

I have an emo kid in the boot of my spaceship already dressed up for bondage sessions which they will most likely enjoy while my warframes are nothing but suits for it to pop in and out of.

They offer nothing to the 'lore' or what little there is left after it has been butchered to pieces.

They offer nothing to the gameplay apart from frustration and annoyance as you try to dash forward in a cumbersome manner or turn invisible for a few seconds because the emo kid is too weak to do anything of actual use where your expanding number of warframes would vanquish that particular obstacle in a heartbeat.

I would love a quest where i could rid this emo kid forever, cut the magic link and let my warframes live even if i could only play as Loki masterrace and all my warframes wandered around the ship interacting and doing missions with me.

If we cut the emo kid now we would lose nothing of importance apart from focus but i could live with that tbh.

The problem is DE and that they have continued down this path, forced it into the game mechanics and even created new resources for the emo kid to collect, they have too far to cut it now and they will keep pushing it.

Warframes is becoming emoframes.

[Carnage2K4]

5 hours ago, Luku_ said:

Dear devs i don't want to play a kid that plays games. Not interested.

You didn't care about the space magic... why do you care so much about this... I mean only in few select missions is the little s#!thead even required... you can just ignore them for the most part..

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

5 hours ago, Luku_ said:

12-13 year old

Technically we are ALOT older than that. I like the story and the lore for the most part. Meh to each there own.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

if you haven't played for a while, socialize and find someone to update you on whats going on, because you highly need a recap and I'm not being sarcastic I've done this for many players who left and came back.

[(PSN)Draconis1981]

personally i feel you completely. i hates this twist after playing the game for 5 years my warframe is a meat puppet controlled by a 12 yoa emo kid yay.

[JuicyPop]

I fail to see how teenagers with borderline magical powers that coldly murder and pillage in the name of some twisted alien mother figure fit the "emo kid" moniker. I'm fairly certain that they aren't at all conflicted with their daily activities and they've never really disobeyed an order from the Lotus out of "rebellion" but out of a sense of duty and belief that it would further their goals.

They're hardened weapons of war which is about as far as you can be from a stereotypical "emo kid."

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by JuicyPop

[Xarteros]

Just because you like not having an explanation doesn't mean we all do. Heaps of people complained that Kubrows shouldn't obey other warframes, because before The Second Dream, people generally assumed that different warframes were completely different characters.

I actually had theories long before Second Dream, that we were some form of psychic ghost or void spirit or something, and that's not only why we control different warframes, but why our Kubrows still sense that we are the same person no matter the frame, as well as explaining why we see the game from a 3rd person perspective (our ghost thingy controlling us like puppets)

I was actually quite pleased to find that I wasn't too far off the mark. I feel it's a really positive change, and introduced a heap of backstory that we only had hints at before

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, JuicyPop said:

<snip>

They're hardened weapons of war which is about as far as you can be from a stereotypical "emo kid."

 

Oh yeah?

They sure dont SOUND like it.

They sound like an emo kid, they look like an emo kid...and they sure as heck talk like some whiny emo kid would. 

If the shoe fits, you know...

[Misgenesis]

These insecure ''Kids cant be serious!!!!111'' threads never stop being funny. Zariman Ten Zero incident is the reason why they look like they do, not moving for who knows how long is why theyre weak. But youre fixated on them being young so you dont care about the reasons.

Your first two points before TSD still apply anyway. The game is STILL about Warframes and i personally still play as them and not my operator. You can dislike the way theyre executed such as the voice acting and i wouldnt necessarily disagree on that part. But hating them just because theyre young? Oh the irony

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

These insecure ''Kids cant be serious!!!!111'' threads never stop being funny. Zariman Ten Zero incident is the reason why they look like they do, not moving for who knows how long is why theyre weak. But youre fixated on them being young so you dont care about the reasons.

Your first two points before TSD still apply anyway. The game is STILL about Warframes and i personally still play as them and not my operator. You can dislike the way theyre executed such as the voice acting and i wouldnt necessarily disagree on that part. But hating them just because theyre young? Oh the irony

I dont hate them because theyre young. I dont LIKE that we play as a kid. And I think from a social awareness standpoint making our cold blooded, mercenary murderer a kid is a bit...out of touch. But that isnt why I dont like the operator.

I dont like the operator because they are functionally useless except in making mechanics which already suck, suck just a little less, and because their development has taken the focus off of the reason I came here in the first place. 

[alphaflight666]

If you think The 2nd Dream is bad, wait until you start The War Within.

And it doesn't stop there, MR24 is locked behind emo starchild, main reason I'm still MR23. Then there is more of it forced in PoE (eidolons, 3 MR weapons). For the most part it saves me from a whole lot of pointless farming. Can't 'wait' to see MR25 and a good chunk of new content being locked the same way.

Operators are like trying to protect your warframe's paintjob by blocking bullets with a human face. Space ninjas made from metals and fibers, with hundreds of deadly instruments of mass destruction in disposal. Nah, let's scrap all that and be an emo kid.

[JuicyPop]

6 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Oh yeah?

They sure dont SOUND like it.

They sound like an emo kid, they look like an emo kid...and they sure as heck talk like some whiny emo kid would. 

If the shoe fits, you know...

Well of course they don't look and sound like adults, they're teenagers. 

If you are unable to connect and empathize with a character simply because of their age, then I have to think that it's a sign of personal immaturity. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by JuicyPop

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, JuicyPop said:

Well of course they don't look and sound like adults, they're teenagers. 

If you are unable to connect and empathize with a character simply because of their age, then I have to think that it's a sign of personal immaturity. 

Its NOT their age that I have an issue with. The which you would know, if you'd bothered to read my earlier posts.

Its their attitude versus their experience. Supposedly, these are hardened veterans of the Lotus's service. Why then do they talk like they S#&amp;&#036; for brains kids who've never seen a gun or a military uniform and are shocked to learn the grineer arent very smart?

Nothing about the implementation of the Operators makes any sense according to the very Lore DE likes to cite. Their voice lines and acting simply dont make any sense at all within the context of the universe in which they exist, given their role within that universe.

Now if we learn down the line that until recently something ELSE was running the Warframes, and these kids really DID just wake up themselves...that might explain things. But thats not the impression we have been given to date.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 04.11.2017 at 21:34, Luku_ said:

-snip-

Second Dream's effects ripple throughout Warframe's development till this day. Second Dream is responsible for the War Within year-long drought, for the broken brain-dead void that we have right now, for the horrible focus system that is forcibly separated from the main gameplay, for the quests that used to be the focus of all Dev's efforts despite lasting less than an hour each, for this pseudo open world abomination we have in the game right now... It all started with the brief "success" of the Second Dream which was mostly just an instance of mass-hysteria and not the result of the quest being actually that good. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[GraveSpectre]

Now hold it right there.

TSD was DE's first attempt to bring CINEMATIC NARRATIVE to Warframe. In which they succeeded greatly. All previous Quests in-game like Vor's Prize or Natah, did not hold a candle to what we got from TSD. Also if you played back in Focus 1.0 you'd only have your Operator as a short 10 second GET THE SHOOP OUTTA WOOP Beam to get you out of tight spots. Something a skilled player at the time never even had to use.

TSD had been something speculated in the pre-existing lore already and only got more and more defined as development went on. See again, Natah.
So your real issue here gameplay-wise actually comes from TWW. 

TSD is not your problem here. As from the very very early beginnings of the first introductions of expanded lore in this game it has ALL been hinted at. 
From Excalibur and Ember's Codex entries to the Lore given to us from Quests. 

Now as for your 'He's a Kid trained to pilot a Murder machine and it doesn't add up."

Lemme skool you some psychology.
For the longest time, you dreamed and believed you were an unstoppable juggernaut of awesomeness.
You wake up and find out that your awesome sauciness was just a dream and really what you had was an amazing suit of epic power.
You are still going to harbour some sentimentality and attachment to said Suit that you want to protect it and not let it come to harm.
Then you are separated from said super Suit and discover and control your own new powers along the road to reclaiming it. 
You now have the personal power to help your Suit and no doubt you want to test your newfound powers as well.

They may be hardened war veterans with massive combat experience. That doesn't mean their decision making is going to be more adult than they are.
They might have the Experience but that doesn't mean they have the Knowledge or the Sense of how to appropriately apply it.

Now for meta.
Being able to play as a '13-18 year old' with amazing powers and a set of suits that are nigh unstoppable is an escape and dream highly appealing to young adults.
This means the majority of gamers with LOW BUDGETS like 15-21 Year olds without a job that pays well. Have a free to play game that helps fulfill said power fantasy and escapism.
This is a large target market to be able to tap into. And by breeding Nostalgia young, these players will linger on into the game into their 30's where they become potential money for the game. A future investment you see?

Also consider that this is DE's Passion. A Project they want to unleash their full artistic vision on without compromise like Dark Sector was.

To finalize...
They are still KIDS, TEENAGERS with TEENAGE minds. No doubt they will likely have an angsty phase.
Also you can COLOUR THEM to not look angsty or edgy or emo. The power of customization yo.

/endrant

Have a nice day.

[Ravenwulfe]

I am wondering why they picked the emo voice? If they don't like them talking all emo, then change the voice there is 4 options, 2 female 2 male, one is emo the other is not. Mine is not emo. Furthest from it. At best, they are kids that have never experienced the world beyond their hyper sleep state. They were also grown as weapons of war, plain and simple, so their outlook on life isn't going to be the same as everything else. This is the hilarity of modern people, that they think everything int he universe will be empathetic when they are divorced from such things. You raise a kid from birth to be a weapon, they are not going to be heart broken or even flinch at the sight of blood or death like we would normally.

[Madotsuki]

What I hate most is honestly just the starchild's characterization. The fact a fragile, fleshy operator exists is not a problem. Something had to be controlling all the different frames, and it presents a weakness that enemies can exploit. The appearance I can overlook even though I hate it, that's just DE's art direction for human characters to make them look more sci-fi special snowflakey. The fact they're teenagers I can accept, child soldiers, if well written, can make for good drama and story telling. The problem is... they're not well written.

They don't act like grizzled veterans or traumatized children raised as living weapons, they act like stereotypical angsty emo teens with no awareness of the world around them up until that point, they constantly state the obvious and spout immaturity, they do not act with any kind of honor or composure befitting a seasoned warrior. Their character development is not an emotionally stunted human weapon gradually recovering their humanity under the guidance of a benevolent AI mother figure amidst a war for survival and protecting the innocent, it's a sodding coming-of-age story of a child maturing into their 'chosen one' role all over again. Even METAL GEAR has better characterization than this! The Operator is not a warrior. It is a petulant child with special snowflake star powers, as cliche as they come. And the only way I can even BEAR playing this game further since unlocking it is to mute it and hope no future quest will ever involve them and their cringe-worthy (and I don't like using that term lightly) voice acting and behavior ever again.

And that's not even going into gameplay mechanics but that's a whole other can of worms.

It's just a good thing I was never that invested into Warframe lore, or TWW would've REALLY hurt.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

I felt this way at first too, until i realized, what difference does it make? Behind that teenage body and puberty voice is a dude who can shoot energy out of his hands that kill sentients faster than some warframes. It's the same kid who knows how to climb walls, while I'm here trying to figure out how to get out of bed without falling on my &amp;#&#33;. I think of it like breaking the 4th wall lore wise, a kid who's restricted by his body, so he tries to elevate his mind, and has that freedom as a tenno. Much like many of us who play warframe and enjoy the power we have.

The story of the tenno is a mirror of the player itself. Like the tenno, you do not know who you are, you just know to follow orders. Thus you become content with what you are, with your growing arsenal, learning fragments of your past. You think you ARE the warframe and have always been and you enjoy being a warframe, until you realize that this whole time, it was basically a dream, and that you truly are a human child, controlling the warframe as if you were it. Now you must learn to be one with your Warframe without having to be your Warframe.

Now how this translates to operator gameplay is a WHOOOOLE other issue lol

[DarkRuler2500]

On 4.11.2017 at 7:34 PM, Luku_ said:

- just sitting in spaceship playing with his warframe toys - no real risk to his life involved

Tell this my Teralyst-slaying operator.

[Zanchak]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:34 AM, Luku_ said:

- i can't even pretend it didn't happen because he lives on my ship (taking valuable cargo space)

 

 

I prob should add - I agree. I already had my childhood, did not desire another.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Zanchak
cause Im slo

[(PSN)FatMacBrbn]

I dont have a problem with the direction of the story, but I don't want to do more operator gameplay. I want to be space ninja. It's cool that operators are getting some combat adjustments, makes sense given their roles, but not something I intend to do more than I need too. 

[JuicyPop]

1 hour ago, Madotsuki said:

What I hate most is honestly just the starchild's characterization. The fact a fragile, fleshy operator exists is not a problem. Something had to be controlling all the different frames, and it presents a weakness that enemies can exploit. The appearance I can overlook even though I hate it, that's just DE's art direction for human characters to make them look more sci-fi special snowflakey. The fact they're teenagers I can accept, child soldiers, if well written, can make for good drama and story telling. The problem is... they're not well written.

They don't act like grizzled veterans or traumatized children raised as living weapons, they act like stereotypical angsty emo teens with no awareness of the world around them up until that point, they constantly state the obvious and spout immaturity, they do not act with any kind of honor or composure befitting a seasoned warrior. Their character development is not an emotionally stunted human weapon gradually recovering their humanity under the guidance of a benevolent AI mother figure amidst a war for survival and protecting the innocent, it's a sodding coming-of-age story of a child maturing into their 'chosen one' role all over again. Even METAL GEAR has better characterization than this! The Operator is not a warrior. It is a petulant child with special snowflake star powers, as cliche as they come. And the only way I can even BEAR playing this game further since unlocking it is to mute it and hope no future quest will ever involve them and their cringe-worthy (and I don't like using that term lightly) voice acting and behavior ever again.

And that's not even going into gameplay mechanics but that's a whole other can of worms.

It's just a good thing I was never that invested into Warframe lore, or TWW would've REALLY hurt.

I'm scratching my head to think of a single line that sounds angsty in the sense of them having identity issues and frustrations related to that. 

As far as I'm aware they have no issues with who they are, what they had been trained to do and what they should do now in the wake of the destruction that they had caused in the Dream that led to the current circumstances within the system. They seem to be very centered on doing the bidding of the Lotus because they believe, either willfully or as a factor of knowing little else, that it will bring peace to the system.

Even in the TWW they didn't seem to display any real doubts or any measure of insecurity. They were assuredly and rather confidently advancing through an exercise [?] that was slowly helping them to remember elements of their life prior to the Dream. 

If they are what you would call angsty, then the term is meaningless.

Edited November 7, 2017 by JuicyPop