Solving the One Hit Kill Issue

[KuraiWolf2014]

4 minutes ago, meristu said:

I dont know, how about using a void mode while reviving.. I was accused of presumptions so I should consider this as a being skilled when you cant even protect yourself ? :D you cant even imagine how many times I saw someone die from aoe in WoW while he was ressing, and it was all that dead dudes fault because I died while reviving you .. no friend you died because you didnt "watch what is damaging you" ... also resistance mods exist too

You can't really protect your self from fire when you are already on fire. It doesn't help that it seems like getting set on fire is easier than not getting lit up. I swear I get blasted by napalm units even when bullet jumping around like a mad man. Also, resistances only lessen the damage, not negate it entirely. So you can still die to fire on high levels.

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, meristu said:

I dont know, how about using a void mode while reviving.. I was accused of presumptions so I should consider this as a being skilled when you cant even protect yourself ? :D you cant even imagine how many times I saw someone die from aoe in WoW while he was ressing, and it was all that dead dudes fault because I died while reviving you .. no friend you died because you didnt "watch what is damaging you" ... also resistance mods exist too

You missed the point.  You don't see it, and you don't any chances to counter/move/resist because it one-shots you.  It's quite easy to die this way in the Plains because of the bushes and foliage hiding the threat.  

Resistance mods still don't stop you from getting one-spotted by the hidden lvl 50+ Napalm fire.  You are also assuming that I might be drawing the aggro during revives which isn't the case as I'm usually in Prowl while doing so.  Using Void mode is a nice idea, but rarely do you get the chance to use it in those situations for various reasons.   

edit: I don't have as many problems with this solo with Ivara.  But in groups, this is a whole different thing.

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[meristu]

3 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

You can't really protect your self from fire when you are already on fire. It doesn't help that it seems like getting set on fire is easier than not getting lit up. I swear I get blasted by napalm units even when bullet jumping around like a mad man. Also, resistances only lessen the damage, not negate it entirely. So you can still die to fire on high levels.

you can swap to void mode and wait until your frame stop being on fire/poisoned/slashed whatever then you just swap back, thats exactly how I am surviving these things right now ... previously I was carrying health restore items with me, spectres, frames with heal or protection and other stuff .. I simply used what game is offering to me instead of asking to nerf everything I dont know how to deal with

[BlackCoMerc]

I don't understand how such a basic design concept is so hard:

It's okay to have highly deadly, mini boss like enemies. Its NOT okay to make EVERY enemy one of them "because levels."

Not even Dark Souls does this.

OHK wouldn't be nearly the issue if every Lancers, sniper and Crewmen in the game didn't scale up endlessly. Hence, stop scaling trash mobs.

Nothing to do with player skill. It's funny, when I'm knocked down constantly by aimbot scorpions with clipping, 360° grappling hooks, I'm told to use the right mods to avoid it. When I'm OHK'd from across the map by enemies I can't see because a grunt level sniper is now a level 50 mini boss...it's "get good."

So...which is it? Skill based? Gear check? 

How bout we just fix the problem, by letting trash mobs be trash mobs and mini bosses be something really special, worthy of focus and attention that we can now afford to offer them because because the level 100 Scorpion isn't picking her teeth with our shoulder armor.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 minutes ago, meristu said:

you can swap to void mode and wait until your frame stop being on fire/poisoned/slashed whatever then you just swap back, thats exactly how I am surviving these things right now ... previously I was carrying health restore items with me, spectres, frames with heal or protection and other stuff .. I simply used what game is offering to me instead of asking to nerf everything I dont know how to deal with

Another example of the enormous problem with operators: use them to make a cheap, tiresome mechanic suck less.

In this instance, it's functionally useless shields. I know shields are a broken mess of unreliability, but hey...the operator makes this suck a little less.

I never thought about swapping to operator, BECAUSE DE has taught me to despise it by making it's every use part of a terrible, forced mechanic that operators make just a little less terrible.

But I will try that next time, so, thanks for the tip. Now, if only we could find someone to make is REAL shields...

[KuraiWolf2014]

8 minutes ago, meristu said:

you can swap to void mode and wait until your frame stop being on fire/poisoned/slashed whatever then you just swap back, thats exactly how I am surviving these things right now ... previously I was carrying health restore items with me, spectres, frames with heal or protection and other stuff .. I simply used what game is offering to me instead of asking to nerf everything I dont know how to deal with

You aren't getting what we are trying to say. You HAVE NO CHANCE to do ANYTHING because you die instantly when you get proc'd at high levels. You must not play very many high leveled missions, otherwise you would know how fast even the most powerful frames die when running high levels. At level 80+ things get ridiculous. With enemies that can nearly one shot you with pin point accuracy. That is what our issue is, and what you are ignoring. ONE SHOT KILLS should not be a thing in any game. It cheapens the experience.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, meristu said:

you can swap to void mode and wait until your frame stop being on fire/poisoned/slashed whatever then you just swap back, thats exactly how I am surviving these things right now ... previously I was carrying health restore items with me, spectres, frames with heal or protection and other stuff .. I simply used what game is offering to me instead of asking to nerf everything I dont know how to deal with

This is all fine and dandy at lower levels and somewhat while solo.  But this is not the case in T5 Bounty missions while in a group.  T5 Bounties have enemies that have multiple ways of one-shotting you while also being very well camouflaged by the terrain and distance.  Then there's all the visual effects of powers and enemy crossfire that it's quite easy to miss stationary threats like napalm fire or homing missles/rockets. 

Before I did those group missions yesterday, I might have somewhat agreed with you.  I died more in those few group Bounty missions yesterday than I have in all the time soloing the PoE content since it's been out.  It's just that this one statement of yours that I quoted above, kinda shows that you either haven't experienced that level yet or are completely ignoring ONE-SHOT KILL issue that we are referring to in this topic.  

BCM isn't requesting a nerf at all, but more of a balancing of the enemies in a logical manner that makes sense without decreasing player challenge.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne
spelling corrections

[phoenix1992]

In all fairness a lot of people decided that Vitality is a fashion mod and decided not to use it because "it is going to one shot me anyway"

Which is true as long as we don't use any sort of DR.

[o.0-]

I kinda wish that enemies wouldn't be trash though, at least the non-infested factions.

There are plenty of times in Warframe, where I wanna feel like Talion in Shadow of Mordor, being rewarded for getting the better of tough enemies and not just mindlessly gunning down mindless hordes that have a mixed bag of CC against us. So having enemies spawn and work as squads, and a new approach to how enemies spawn and how systems interact would need to be a focus.

AI routines are only one aspect of this, as how enemies scale to us and how we interact with them can be adjusted, even with out static mods and all of the build permutations possible, depending on the design focus the devs want to pursue.

 

[KuraiWolf2014]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

In all fairness a lot of people decided that Vitality is a fashion mod and decided not to use it because "it is going to one shot me anyway"

Which is true as long as we don't use any sort of DR.

Even the best damage resistance mods in the game will NOT prevent swift death caused by multiple napalm units roasting your frame over a roaring flame. They will only slightly beef you up. DR mods are like wooden shields: they are better than nothing sure, but they will still fail if too much damage is thrown at them.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, KuraiWolf2014 said:

Even the best damage resistance mods in the game will NOT prevent swift death caused by multiple napalm units roasting your frame over a roaring flame. They will only slightly beef you up. DR mods are like wooden shields: they are better than nothing sure, but they will still fail if too much damage is thrown at them.

Who said anything about Mods?

[KuraiWolf2014]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Who said anything about Mods?

Why wouldn't we use mods?

[phoenix1992]

Just now, KuraiWolf2014 said:

Why wouldn't we use mods?

Can you please stop posting for a minute and read exactly what I said and/or research the topic?
 

10 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

In all fairness a lot of people decided that Vitality is a fashion mod and decided not to use it because "it is going to one shot me anyway"

Which is true as long as we don't use any sort of DR.

Mods are one sort of Damage Reduction. I am not telling you to put Steel Fiber on Nova. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Fair point about armor. The fact that the CAP Aura exists screams that there's a problem.

Health should scale, I think. But Armor Scaling needs a cap. A hard cap.

Now that Landscapes are a thing...it's time to find something other than insurmountable enemies to push us out of Endless missions. The scaling system is based on Endless, but it's breaking the game and killing the fun of open maps.

I was toying with a few ideas about armor in warframe. I came up with the idea of buffing enemy health while introducing an armor breakdown mechanic, where damage done strips off a level of armor.

This wouldn't work on warframes, because we'd be getting a completely different armor that has no modifiers. Currently, all warframes and iron skins have ferrite armor, which is arguably the worst armor. I think we should get an armor with complete neutrality to all damage types  thus we wouldn't be so weak to puncture damage, since puncture damage currently ignores half our armor and deals 1.5x damage to us. This solves two problems, armor scaling, and enemy damage (to a certain degree)

[KuraiWolf2014]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Can you please stop posting for a minute and read exactly what I said and/or research the topic?
 

Mods are one sort of Damage Reduction. I am not telling you to put Steel Fiber on Nova. 

First off, I DID read exactly what you said. Second, mods are an integral part of the game. If you aren't modding the F out of your gear, then you are doing it wrong. You can't rely only on abilities and passives for everything. You need DR mods in order to get any significant damage reduction. If you have a squishy frame, then you need to put some DR mods on it otherwise you will be dying a lot to high level enemies that hand out damage like its candy. You need to think of end game. Any player who isn't an idiot will tell you, its all about how you mod your equipment. And with the limited number of mod slots and capacity, it is vital to build for a specific purpose. You can't mod for, let's say, power range and strength and expect to also mod for every possible damage type you will encounter in a mission. That is just not going to happen.

[SenariousNex]

Better solution: Allow tank frames to HP link with team members when in range. Splitting the damage taken.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I was toying with a few ideas about armor in warframe. I came up with the idea of buffing enemy health while introducing an armor breakdown mechanic, where damage done strips off a level of armor.

This wouldn't work on warframes, because we'd be getting a completely different armor that has no modifiers. Currently, all warframes and iron skins have ferrite armor, which is arguably the worst armor. I think we should get an armor with complete neutrality to all damage types  thus we wouldn't be so weak to puncture damage, since puncture damage currently ignores half our armor and deals 1.5x damage to us. This solves two problems, armor scaling, and enemy damage (to a certain degree)

I LOVE the idea of ENEMY armor as a health bar. Gives us a reason for varied Loadouts. Makes Armor something we can work to overcome and a known quantity.

Slash weapons modded with Corrosive...

[DatDarkOne]

13 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

First off, I DID read exactly what you said. Second, mods are an integral part of the game. If you aren't modding the F out of your gear, then you are doing it wrong. You can't rely only on abilities and passives for everything. You need DR mods in order to get any significant damage reduction. If you have a squishy frame, then you need to put some DR mods on it otherwise you will be dying a lot to high level enemies that hand out damage like its candy. You need to think of end game. Any player who isn't an idiot will tell you, its all about how you mod your equipment. And with the limited number of mod slots and capacity, it is vital to build for a specific purpose. You can't mod for, let's say, power range and strength and expect to also mod for every possible damage type you will encounter in a mission. That is just not going to happen.

I think you might have missed his point.  There is a point in the enemy scaling damage where DR mods are just a waste of mod space.  That is what Phoenix was meaning.   This limit varies depending on frame (Inaros and Nidus being examples that get great effect out of DR) and irrelevant for some others (Ivara being a perfect example of wasting a mod slot with DR mod).

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne
clarification

[zornyan]

3 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

best part is...Tusk Bombards from the Plains already have this...DE just needs to make the change to regular bombards.....OR switch them around so the plains have the homing where it makes sense lol.

say what???? never knew about this.

There IS a shield gating thing that has been thrown around lately...and being tested somehow...iirc DE just doesnt like how their tests are reacting properly.
How would this work against enemies though?

i would be down for this for sure....they ARE trash mobs after all.

one other thing i would like to add is the bloody Armor scaling. I'm fine with shields and health scaling as we DO have proper means to lower them easily thru status, but Armor is a complete joke with Corrossive being so useless its not even funny (Due to the NEED for High Fire Rate weapons ON TOP OF CP).

On top of CP?? 

 

4x cp means no armor at all, regardless of level.

 

if solo, 1 CP is worthless, Akbronco/akatiletto remove armor in seconds, I mean you don’t actually need to remove armor from anything sub lvl 200 with how powerful some weapons/abilities are like slash procs, Tigris prime, condition overload melee etc

[KuraiWolf2014]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I think you might have missed his point.  There is a point in the enemy scaling damage where DR mods are just a waste of mod space.  That is what Phoenix was meaning.   This limit varies depending on frame and irrelevant for some others (Ivara being a perfect example of wasting a mod slot with DR mod).

I know what he is trying to say. What I am saying is, there is no point in messing with damage reduction when high level enemies put out so much damage that they kill you in one shot regardless. From what I read, he was saying DR will somehow prevent OHK from proc's. He said "Which is true as long as we don't use any sort of DR" as if it is not true if we do use DR. If he was meaning something else, then he apparently didn't state his point clearly enough.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

I don't see how OHK are even a problem. If you have a properly kitted warframe, there isn't anything sub level 100 that can OHK any frame even a squishy one. (obviously if you build some meta banshee w/300 health&shields so you can have crazy resonating quake  or other meta frame build for example, you can be one shot - but thats the gamble you made with the build in exchange for map wiping)

Over 100 whats the point? There has to be something to keep us from going on 24hour survivals.  And if its not a OHK at level 200, it'll be something at level 300, or 500, or 5000.  

As for accuracy, the majority of the times I'm killed (excluding self-kills with zarr/angstrum/lenz which is actually the most of my deaths lol) on very high level missions, the enemy that killed me wasn't even aiming at me but at a teammate behind me or I zigged when I should have zagged.

And we get so many revives - team revives, sacrifice/prime regen, arcane revives, the 3 starter revives... who cares about 1 death?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

I don't see how OHK are even a problem. If you have a properly kitted warframe, there isn't anything sub level 100 that can OHK any frame even a squishy one.

Over 100 whats the point? There has to be something to keep us from going on 24hour survivals.  And if its not a OHK at level 200, it'll be something at level 300, or 500, or 5000.  

As for accuracy, the majority of the times I'm killed (excluding self-kills with zarr/angstrum/lenz which is actually the most of my deaths lol) on very high level missions, the enemy that killed me wasn't even aiming at me but at a teammate behind me or I zigged when I should have zagged.

And we get so many revives - team revives, sacrifice/prime regen, arcane revives, the 3 starter revives... who cares about 1 death?

 

What you are saying is mostly true in regards to regular missions.  Once you start playing PoE, then you will realize just how much of an issue it can be.  

Those one shot kills start happening at a much lower enemy level in the Plains.  I will admit that certain frames just will not see this much if playing solo.  It's when playing in a group or using Archwing when you start seeing a higher rate of one shots in the Plains.

[KuraiWolf2014]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

I don't see how OHK are even a problem. If you have a properly kitted warframe, there isn't anything sub level 100 that can OHK any frame even a squishy one. (obviously if you build some meta banshee w/300 health&shields so you can have crazy resonating quake  or other meta frame build for example, you can be one shot - but thats the gamble you made with the build in exchange for map wiping)

Over 100 whats the point? There has to be something to keep us from going on 24hour survivals.  And if its not a OHK at level 200, it'll be something at level 300, or 500, or 5000.  

As for accuracy, the majority of the times I'm killed (excluding self-kills with zarr/angstrum/lenz which is actually the most of my deaths lol) on very high level missions, the enemy that killed me wasn't even aiming at me but at a teammate behind me or I zigged when I should have zagged.

And we get so many revives - team revives, sacrifice/prime regen, arcane revives, the 3 starter revives... who cares about 1 death?

 

 

You don't understand. Even the best frame with the highest health can still die almost instantly when dealing with a room full of enemies with bleed and toxin damage (as so many enemies seem to have). Your "god mode" tank frame isn't as unstoppable as you may think. Just look at the ridiculous damage numbers many high level enemies are able to output. So unless you like filling all your slots with mods that only marginally reduce damage, you will need to think of a better way to prevent OHK in high level missions. Remember, building a Loki to be a tank is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. So why put DR mods on him at all? Especially when modding him for things like ability duration so you can have an actually useful cloak or modding for ability range so you can disarm a whole building full of enemies is a heck of a lot better choice.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

10 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

You don't understand. Even the best frame with the highest health can still die almost instantly when dealing with a room full of enemies with bleed and toxin damage (as so many enemies seem to have). Your "god mode" tank frame isn't as unstoppable as you may think. Just look at the ridiculous damage numbers many high level enemies are able to output. So unless you like filling all your slots with mods that only marginally reduce damage, you will need to think of a better way to prevent OHK in high level missions. Remember, building a Loki to be a tank is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. So why put DR mods on him at all? Especially when modding him for things like ability duration so you can have an actually useful cloak or modding for ability range so you can disarm a whole building full of enemies is a heck of a lot better choice.

No you don't understand what I was saying. I'm not talking about tank frames, and I rarely tank anything in any event.  I was simply saying people have the OPTION to build warframes (NOT TANKS) that can survive a single hit up to level 100 and still have a viable frame build that is not based on face tanking.  And complementary to that was the idea of 'where do you draw the line' in terms of what we should be able to survive or how long we should go in endless style missions?

 Beyond some level, solving the OHK doesn't solve anything - all you are doing is delaying the inevitable.  Who cares if its at level 100 or level 1000?  Or if you implement shield gating with an inviciblility timer of say .5sec - then you get shot by another enemy in that room full of enemies in .5 of a second.  Speaking of which -if in your example room its a room full of enemies with bleed and toxin damage, its not really a OHK now is it?

What I'm saying is I don't see OHK as a problem in ANY mission currently in WF.  And I have no problem going hours in survivals/defenses/interceptions.  Sure I get the occasional love tap and keel over, but thats what revives are for.  and if i'm not revived by a teammate, I have at least 8 free revives per mission.  And if all thats not enough, well its probably time for my next meal anyway and I'll extract.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg
a few typos . probably more.

[phoenix1992]

40 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

First off, I DID read exactly what you said. Second, mods are an integral part of the game. If you aren't modding the F out of your gear, then you are doing it wrong. You can't rely only on abilities and passives for everything. You need DR mods in order to get any significant damage reduction. If you have a squishy frame, then you need to put some DR mods on it otherwise you will be dying a lot to high level enemies that hand out damage like its candy. You need to think of end game. Any player who isn't an idiot will tell you, its all about how you mod your equipment. And with the limited number of mod slots and capacity, it is vital to build for a specific purpose. You can't mod for, let's say, power range and strength and expect to also mod for every possible damage type you will encounter in a mission. That is just not going to happen.

Can you please, for the love of god stop straw man my post? 

I said, and i will repeat it with bold big letters "Some people do not use Vitality, because they discredit both it and any form DR".  Please keep on repeating on loop *but my mods*.  
 
I will not indulge any more in your crusade to misread, missrepresent  and assume what people mean when they say something.